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- [00:00]
A
Go beyond the verses and achieve a deeper understanding of Scripture with the Rebind Study Bible App. An audio experience of the Bible interwoven with expert commentary. The Rebind Study Bible App reads Scripture to you, enriching your comprehension with insights from the world renowned New International commentary on the Old and the New Testament in an accessible podcast episode format. Be not therefore anxious for the morrow.
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Matthew, chapter six.
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C
Each day will have its troubles, but.
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B
By God's grace they can be survived.
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A
Use the Rebind Study Bible App's chat function to ask questions and get answers in real time. That's thought provoking discussion and analysis rooted in decades of research and wisdom from more than 40 scholars at your fingertips. The Rebind Study Bible App is a new way to experience the Bible with enhanced depth, at your own pace in the moments you have. Search the Apple App Store for Rebind Study Bible or go to rebind app.com newbooks network for a free 7 day trial. Hello everybody, this is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network and if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Production. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
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B
Julian Chung, welcome to the program.
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C
Well, thank you. Thanks for having me, Mel.
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B
I'm pleased to be here and I'm so delighted. I always forget to introduce myself, but I'm going to introduce you first because you're such a splendid person. Julian Chang, Terrific, terrific, terrific illustrator hailing from Montreal, Canada and I grew up in Ottawa, which isn't too far away, and so. But then you are one of the kindest people. And we have met twice, and it's rare that I get to interview people I've actually met in the flesh. We met at SCBWI about two years ago. We met at Bologna at the Children's Fair last year. And after some. I don't know what the word is, it took us a while to get together. Now I'm going to introduce myself. I'm Mel Rosenberg, and I am the host of the Children's Literature Channel of the New Books Network. And with me is prime illustrator Julien Chung. Julien, welcome.
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C
Thank you. Merci beaucoup.
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B
Oh, and whatever that means, at least for now. We are celebrating with you a beautiful new picture book that just came out last month with owl kids in Toronto. A few words about this gorgeous orange book.
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C
Wonderful. Yeah. This book is called you Can't Tame a Tiger. And I was attracted, essentially, by the fact that it was a tiger, and I like tigers. And I've been drawing lion and tigers in a number of books, as well as dogs. And here I would say that Stephanie herself was inspired by her own story. This is actually her first story that she ever wrote. Wow, kids books. It's not her first published book. This is like her second book that was published. And she based it on the fact that she herself felt sometimes unseen, or how shall I say, she hasn't heard her words here, that she wanted to write a story that would give children the courage to simply be themselves. So taking off of that. And also, she's interested in Chinese astrology, and she had a lot of tigers in her family in the immediate circle. The other thing is, I, too, had a tiger. My father was a tiger. So that also brings it around to the why I was interested in the story. But of course, the story itself is what attracted me. The idea that this boy had a friend who he didn't really believe was putting himself really out there, who wasn't really a tiger, because, as you can see, the tiger is white. And now a white tiger actually does exist in nature. It's a very special species. But the boy here said, you can't be a tiger. You don't have any stripes, and you're not orange. Which brings me to another point that we had a lot of fun in this book is that there's only a few colors, and one of them is orange. The other main color in the book is gray. And when I first drew the sketches, I drew them on one. The first sketch, I drew on an orange background. The other sketches that I submitted as part of the dummy of the book, as you know that we as illustrators have to present a number of sketches, not just one, to present our vision. And I didn't have a complete vision, so I put these white tigers on a gray background because gray, to me is neutral. However, the publisher loved it, the art director loved it, the author loved it, and they. They bought it as it is. Tel kel, as we say in French. They. They really wanted a gray background. And that's despite me being later. Later on working, I would say, several days on full color versions, full color backgrounds with the white tiger. I tried really everything not to do a gray background because I really thought the big gray background was going to be kind of flat or neutral for me. However, the art director and the publisher insisted, really, no, we're going with the gray. It's really super. I said, sure, just gray and orange. Maybe a little bit of green. Said, sure, that's what we want. And that's what we ended up with. They're quite pleased, and I think I'm quite happy with the result too.
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B
Can you show a couple of the spreads? And then we're going to talk about the wow moment.
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C
Okay, so this is one of.
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B
Written by Stephanie Allen C. Published by Owl Kids in Toronto last month.
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C
That's right. So here, this is one of the main spreads. In the introduction, it says, I have a pet tiger, though he's a tad odd. So Imran's fur is not orange and he has no stripes at all. And there they are. So the artwork is very, very simple.
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B
I love this, that everything is orange except the tiger. This is my kind of humor.
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C
And this is my kind of humor. He really goes and tries to paint these flat, black stripes on the animal. That was one of the main first sketches.
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B
And then the tiger says, hey, you know, I eat animals that grass. Yeah, right.
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C
He says, I don't eat grass. Gross.
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B
Julian, now. Now show us the wow. Is there a wow moment in the book?
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C
Yes. When we talk about. When I talk about a wow moment, I think the wow moment is a little different for everybody. For the creator, for the writer, for the illustrator, for the publisher. But for me, the wow moment is when the book actually all comes together through whatever. It could be just the idea suddenly becomes crystal clear and the whole story comes together, or it could be the creation of a character that suddenly brings a whole story together. It could be really any aspect that just suddenly completes the vision in my mind. So that's not necessarily the wow moment for the reader. We hope that the reader has other personal wow moments in this book. I would say this is a wow moment for me. When I realized, when I decided that the boy actually the boy and the tiger for the child that's reading the story. For the most of the readers, they're two separate characters. But in my mind, suddenly they just became one. The boy. To me, the boy had. And this is not Stephanie's vision either necessarily, but for me, the tiger was a tiger spirit that really resides in. Inside the boy character. And then that probably is a reflection of myself in a certain sense that maybe that I feel in myself that I have this personality that could be.
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B
A tiger, but a tiger that refuses to be orange.
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C
No. Well, the tiger. No, this. Yes, you're right. The tiger is totally accepts himself as he is. That's the key. And I think that's what it is for me too, as an artist, as an illustrator. Every time I create something, I kind of say, is it me? Is it coming from my heart, from my soul? Is it something that reflects myself? And I try very hard that every book that I work on reflects this. That it is coming from a deeper place.
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B
So this is a perfect way to segue back to your. To your childhood. Julian, the boy with the tiger inside.
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C
That's right.
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B
Tell us about your childhood.
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C
I was. Well, actually I was born here in Montreal. My parents came from after the Second World War. So that's going way, way back into the 1950s. They both came here.
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B
That's not so way, way back, my friend. I was born in the 50s.
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A
Come on.
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B
There.
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C
There you go, Mel. And yeah, I was born in the 50s as well. That's true. So I was born here. They came, my father came from China. My grandmother had sent her three sons to different countries, to the US to the uk to Canada, basically to escape the oncoming as we know as the probably communist takeovers. My Chinese family is. Were fairly well off. My father came here through the States. He studied a year at university, studied architecture and engineering, and then came here to work. He met my mother here, who came from Austria, from Germany. Her city where she was living at the time in Stuttgart, was bombed out and was in total reconstruction. She was newly divorced, so she was also probably excommunicated from her Catholic background. So they both. My parents came here escaping their. The war and also their own backgrounds and looking for a new life actually together. That's being said. My mother, my father also had a thing for German girls at the time he knew several and my mother kind of stood out and they got together and they got. They bonded together over art, if you can believe that. Art and design from two different cultures, but very strong interest. My mother studied graphic design and my father had this year where he studied architecture and he loved furniture design. So that is where that all comes together. My family really grew up in a Scandinavian household. Mid century modern. As you can see. This piece of furniture behind me was designed by my father. Very solid piece of oak, some of it, you know, with. I don't. We call it plaqued plaque plaques. No, that's in French, the plaque. Anyway, it's some of it solid and some of it is laminated. That's the word I was looking for. But he had a strong interest in that. So that those interests were every day in our family. And I got to do as a kid a lot of artwork with my mother. She stayed at home while my father worked those long hours at an engineering firm. And we did, my mother and I did a lot of art, a lot of crafts, a lot of different things. Painting, lino cuts and as well, what's important. When we started school, when my younger brother was born, she really bought a lot of books, a lot of kids books. And at school we had the Scholastic book program, book club. And every time, twice a year the catalog came out. My mother just bought all the books in the catalog. And I was one of the few kids that came home with a pile of books this height. So that was a lot of fun. So reading, drawing, creating stories and artwork throughout my life with my parents was present.
- [13:45]
B
And like in high school, at university.
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C
You.
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B
You decided to study design, which is close to, let's say art, but PA shows. Exactly.
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C
And that's a good point. I decided to go for the applied arts, probably in part because I knew I wanted to work and make a living from it. I do have a very practical side, maybe a kind of a business side. Some people could say that's probably from my grandparents on both sides of my family were very business oriented. My father went to engineering. He was also, you know, he wanted to work. He felt that architecture was a little bit.
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B
Too.
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C
He couldn't establish himself and make a living as an architect as quite as quickly as he wanted to. So he chose to go into engineering. He had a strong mathematical bent inclination. So there are those two sides, science and art. While I was in high school, I was going through the science program and we have a pre university program that was a science program until unfortunately I or Fortunately, I found myself more often in the pottery studio doing ceramics than in my science classes. And that sort of pushed everything toward it. Well, and then I also discovered a bit a book in the college library written by Milton Glaser. And it was Milton Glaser's first book, resuming his career at that time. And I really fell in love with that book. I think I took it out 20, 30 times I read through it. And that really pointed me towards graphic design as a career choice because that combined thinking, imagining, but also working with a concrete project and having to come up with ideas for someone else, obviously. But so that, that combined all the aspects that I really enjoyed. And so I went forward with that.
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B
And you. And you did very well until some day when the. When the tiger inside, you said, Julian. Yeah, this is, well, you know, your tiger speaking.
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C
This is my tiger speaking. That's right. I have gone through about five different careers in design and art right now. So children's book is the fifth one if I count everyone that I've been through. The main first one, I was being a graphic designer and art director for a consulting firm. Then I went into newspapers and editorial illustration, art direction, photo direction for a while.
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B
And in the Montreal Gazette, which I remember so well at the sale.
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C
Yeah, that's right. Montreal Gazette was leading design, newspaper in news design at that time, right after USA Today. So everybody wanted to get onto that bandwagon, making newspapers more visual, up to date, lots more infographics and artworks. And I really love that. So as you know, I stayed in the news business the rest of my life for over 30 years because it was like going back to university. You were going back and you were dealing with all kinds of subjects. Politics, sports, business, how to make apple pie every year, design, travel. I touched on all those subjects for over 30 years. And I was learning things all the time, new things. And it was a very exciting period, I find. And yet now and here. Yeah, yet I needed to renew my creative side. So when I hit 40 and I stopped being a design manager, I went back to be a creative, hands on, creative person. I needed to develop new skills. And so illustration came on the forefront and I decided to explore that on the side. I spent several years doing cartooning. I even had a cartoon strip in the newspaper for a while, but that was too much work. That was a lot of effort doing a daily strip. So we did that for about nine, ten months. Myself and my brother in law who helped me write, we went afterwards. Afterwards I explored for 10 years the licensing business. Art licensing, getting my characters onto products, and that went fairly well. I even had a store in the Seoul, Korea, in South Korea that had all that had all my art on all its products, from suitcases, T shirts to leather wallets. That was kind of an interesting experience. And I worked for about 15 years with a German manufacturing company doing glassware and tableware. And that was a lot of fun. And after, and during that time, while I was doing a lot of work with this German company, I decided to experiment with BookTube with children's books. The big challenge was taking that one character that I had designed for a German beer glass and now making it into a 32 page book, repeating the same character, being able to do what we call narrative illustration, that is taking a character, developing backgrounds and a story and taking it over 32 pages, which became a new challenge for me.
- [19:19]
B
I also see and especially writing a book for five year olds about a kid on a beer glass.
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C
Oh, yeah. Well, the thing with the beer glasses is that. Yeah. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah. Well, my client in Germany said, Julian, your beer glasses are so wonderful. They tell stories. That beer drinker while he's drinking his beer. And you know, they're huge glasses in Germany, they're not like small ones here in Montreal in Canada, they're huge. And you drill 500 milliliters. Oh yeah, yeah, I did, I did. I designed quite a few. And they were all happy animals, cartoon animals, graphic animals, having fun doing that. And so my client said, you're telling a story here over. So over several hours a beer drinker is going to have fun looking at this and imagining things. And that sort of clicked in my mind and I said, maybe I can do children's books as well. Because from the outset my characters were more childlike. Then Julian, it was until the age of 40.
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B
This dawn on you that maybe this was your mission in life?
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C
No, I was very busy establishing myself in the news business as an art director, photo director, manager, developing stories with the journalists and doing all that. I didn't really have time. Also, my children were very small too, so they were growing up.
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B
So how old were you? If I can ask, when. When this wow moment came to you and you say, wow, I can be a really great children's illustrator. And you know, wow, the holidays are.
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A
Coming up and that means friends and family are going to be in your house. Is your house ready? I know mine wasn't. So I went to Wayfair to make sure that I had everything I needed to entertain and put these people up during the holiday season, Wayfair is the place to shop for all things you need for your home, from sofas to spatulas. And listen to this. Starting October 30th, you can shop Wayfair's Can't Miss Black Friday deals all month long. You can get up to 70% off. Wayfair will ship your items fast and free. Now, in my case, I need to do betting. My betting was shot. So what did I do? Well, I went to Wayfair and I bought some new sheets and pillowcases. I also bought a comforter simply because I thought it was beautiful. It was very easy to order them. The price was right, shipping was free, and they came, came well before I needed them. So don't miss out on early Black Friday deals. Head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals for up to 70 off. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com sale ends December 7th.
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C
We all love a legendary comeback. And degree original cool rush is back and better than ever. Cool Rush isn't just a scent. It's a movement, a fan favorite favorite that delivers bold, fresh vibes and all day sweat protection. Whether you have a man that spends hours in the gym, heads into the office early, or is just trying to stay fresh on a long day, Cool Rush has their back. Head to your local Walmart or Target and Grab Degree Cool Rush, the fan favorite scent from the world's number one antiperspirant brand. That came when I was 50. Over 50 years old.
- [22:32]
B
Wow.
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C
Yeah. Three years ago.
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B
You managed over illustrate over 20 books in three years. That's pretty good, man.
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C
That's pretty good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, as, as you know, I have recently retired from my newspaper job and I have suddenly more work than I can handle in terms of children's books. So it's going pretty well. I'm having a lot of fun and I'm also having fun, you know, being retired and looking after my grandchildren as well. And my, my first grandchild now is 10 years old and that's roughly when I had my first books come out. So he was able to actually test out as a newborn, test out my first book, baby books. My first board books, which was my very first one was black and white. So that was very stimulating for, for the newborn. And he could, you know, wave his arms if he liked.
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B
And it was a good idea showing the board book because when I show my young grandchildren the picture books, they tear them to Shreds, initially, we use them.
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C
The hooks that way. Yeah. So this is typically a board book. This is my board board that came out this year. The reason I started with board books is because as a graphic designer, my portfolio had a lot of single images and I worked with an. With a consultant and we wrote together the first board books. Even this board book, which is basically based on concepts, which is. Which goes towards my interest in concept books as picture books. I noticed that most of them are concept books.
- [24:12]
B
Junior who wrote this and who published it?
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C
I wrote this with Anne Sophie Pilly, who's a French. She was living here in Montreal at the time. Yeah, she was. She's a French editor and consultant. And she's. And. And she had. What she did was she went through my portfolio and she and I together said. She said, you know, you could do this and this and this. Here are some ideas for this type of illustration. So in this book. This is a book, as you can see about. This is a dog based. Done in the style of Frida, the Mexican artist that everybody knows in the art world. This one is a. Done by Georges Braque, Cubist, everybody. People know that. And so this was the idea was I was. And this is my givit. I was taking off, you know, I was having fun drawing dogs in different artist styles. So that was the basic idea. And then she said, well, you know what, we can do a book about color. Why don't you do them all? Basically, mostly in blues, this one mostly in purples. Andy Warhol, mostly in browns. This is Mugliani and mostly orange. Orange is our fun artist here, Jean Michel Basquiat. And then we'd further developed it. We always have a character here, so the words are very simple. It just says a brown dog. And then we have some animal here doing something at the end.
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B
The concept is brilliant.
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C
Yeah, it was a lot of fun to do. And at the end we discover it's a cat. A cat who's drawing dogs. But finally a cat who says, I want to do a portrait of myself in full color. And there she is. That's her self portrait in full color as a cat.
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B
Is there a sequel where the dog draws cats?
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C
That would be good, huh? I'll have a good look at both of them.
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B
Julian, you have a gorgeous book also coming out next week. A few words about that one.
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C
Oh, yes, it has been.
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B
I have to remind you.
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C
Yes, you do. This is the other book that's come out at the same time. So this is book number three. Chica, Chica. Trica Treat, based on the American classic Chica Chica Boom Boom, which was published in the 90s over 30 years ago. So the fantastic thing is that they. Well, for me is that the publisher and my editor. My editor was the editor of chica chica 1, 2, 3, 30 years ago. I'm not sure if she was the editor of Chica Chica Boom Boom, but she was doing the other. You know, she did the other Chica Chica books. The other interesting fact is that Chica Chica Boom Boom, this is the classic in a small board book size. The illustrator's name is Lois Ellert. And Lois Ellert does wonderful books. And I fell in love with her books in the 1990s. This is another one. She's a graphic designer like myself, and she did these beautiful. Very imaginative. This is not a photo, not a paper collage, but it is paper cut out. And so you can see that through the different layers, you have different images and very simple words. So this kind of caught my eye. But she also does a lot of other books. This one's a very popular one. Fish Eyes. You can see that it won an award. Same thing. So this is what I was really inspired by in the 1990s. And that. That fed the. My illustration when I started doing editorial illustration in the 2000s, and that's still what's feeding me now. So this editor, same editor that I have today, which is entirely by coincidence, and I think I have a feeling that my editor was kind of testing me. We worked together on three other books before she offered me to do Chica Chica Chica Chica. Trica Treat is actually the second picture book I did for them. In the background, you can see I did Chica Chica. Ho ho, ho. That was the first one. It was a Christmas book. She had the text in her drawer for about five years, as I understand it, before actually offering it up for a number of reasons. Now the. The original creators have all passed away, and so they decided. They asked me to continue the series. They offered me to do Christmas, and Christmas did very well. Halloween also is doing very well. It's on a New York Times bestseller list. And so this is like the third Chica Chica book on the New York Times bestseller list this year. And there was a little one I did called I Love dad, which is a gift book. So people are really loving this. They're feeling nostalgic. They remember Chica Chica Boom Boom, which has sold, like, over 30 million copies in 30 years. So the publisher obviously thinks this Is. Well, it has proven a success in the short term, in the first year on the bestseller list. So very, very happy.
- [29:27]
B
I hope you make a fortune.
- [29:30]
C
Well, you know what? This is.
- [29:31]
B
Hold on, Julia, hold on one second. One thing we're gonna like. We're getting there. Okay. Okay, go ahead. I know what you want to say and. Go ahead and say it.
- [29:40]
C
It's important. Oh, okay. What I was going to say is that. Yeah, this is also.
- [29:45]
B
You're going to talk about residuals.
- [29:47]
C
Yeah, well, this is a creative. This is a business deal too. So the, the publisher, Simon Schuster and Beach Lane Books, they know what they're doing. They offered me, I, I, you know, a very, very good conditions, but not the same conditions as the original author. So if they do, however, my. I have very good agents. So I got a very, very, very good deal. I'm very happy with it. And basically my agent said, take the money and run. So we will have royalties and everything like a standard book agreement with other authors and illustrators. And it will, I think over the long haul it will be a nice thing, but I think possibly my children will benefit from it.
- [30:39]
B
Julian, people give their it to have one agent and you have two awesome agents. And a few words about how you. How you found two.
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C
Oh, well, yeah, that's. Through circumstance. Reuben Pfeffer is my agent. He found me at SCBWI in New York through the Portfolio showcase. So I recommend the Portfolio showcase to all illustrators. What?
- [31:12]
B
Can you recommend DWI to the whole world?
- [31:16]
C
Yeah, I do. Because I would say they helped me a lot at the beginning through their workshops, through their. Through the moral support that other members gave me through the community. I would say that it's important to show up at certain events. My. I think what helped me was that I was. I went, I invested in, into going into the New York conference. The first year, I was welcomed by my fellow Canadians. I felt right away welcomed in a beautiful community. Very kind, very, very open. The second year, I think that's when Ruben saw me first, he liked the work. Somebody told me that he liked the work, but he never talked to me. The second year, I believe he started talking up my work to other people. Professional. As you know, the showcase is kind of a cocktail party for the New York professionals in all the fields. The agents, the editors, art directors, they are invited to attend. And they all look at all these portfolios that are out there on the tables and we are not there as illustrators. We are outside waiting for the results to see if they took our postcards if the people that we have spies inside the room. I didn't know that until they started spies came out and said, hi, Julian Rubin really liked your work. And he was talking about it to other people. And then I finally, I think I signed with him the next year.
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B
Wow. And Amy?
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C
Well, Amy is Reuben's partner. She was already part of his agency. I don't know at what point she joined, but as you know, we're all getting on in age. So Ruben has changed his business structure. They signed up with Avitus, so now I'm part of the Avitis children's group, a group of 30 or more agents that have, you know, gotten all their business side together. So there's one accounting department, there's a legal department. And Reuben is concentrating on what he loves doing best, which is developing new talent, which is what he did with me. Even though I was an old guy. He took me on, he took a chance on me because at that point I was not showing much narrative art in my portfolio. I was showing characters, but different characters at all the time. But he decided to take a chance. He saw something in it and signed me up. And we are working. We've been working together ever since. We are on now, if I count the seven or eight books with Chika, Chica and the Thigh. But we've done like quite a number of books. At least a dozen books together. And yeah, what I love about him is not only that he spoke my language, that he could.
- [34:02]
B
Where.
- [34:03]
C
Where he saw me was where I wanted to go. We talked about objectives and goals. And me, it's right now because I'm retired. Everything is very short term. I don't have a 30 year career in front of me. I have shorter than that. Well, so I need. That's also.
- [34:19]
B
I don't know what the Chinese say, but the Jews say, may you live to 120.
- [34:25]
C
That's perfect. Thank you.
- [34:28]
B
You know, go ahead. Well, surprised me. So I want to think about. What's that? I want to talk now about something that.
- [34:37]
C
Okay.
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B
That people should know about. Okay. And that is, you know, I've thought for many, for many years that illustrators don't always get what they deserve. They don't get what they deserve in terms of the credits of the. Of the book, which is at least 50% the artwork. And they don't always get paid well. And you talk and I know that this is not the first venue, but because you're the only person talking about it. What do illustrators make in Quebec, Ontario, Canada? The States, the world. Are you willing to share?
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C
I guess I can share some. Usually, like you said, people don't talk about it openly. I feel that the markets are. I can probably talk in generalities that the market is very different.
- [35:37]
B
Not what you make what other people.
- [35:40]
C
Okay, yeah. In Quebec, the French Canadian market is rather small, but the rates I think are comparable with what the French are based on what the French artists make, which unfortunately is not very much. It's very difficult to make a living from books just in the French language. You could say that already if you're working in English Canada or in the uk, you're making double or triple.
- [36:13]
B
So I'm going to say, and you can correct me. So in French Canada, it's a few thousand Canadian dollars.
- [36:20]
C
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
- [36:22]
B
Which comes out to, I don't know, $10 an hour. It's, it's like.
- [36:26]
C
Well, yeah, it's, it's. No, you, it's kind of. Yeah, you can't really.
- [36:31]
B
The.
- [36:31]
C
But however, however that has to be.
- [36:34]
B
A labor of love.
- [36:35]
C
Yes, it does. And I think what the, what's driving us in Montreal is that in, in Quebec is that we want to have the culture, the French culture, the French language survive and passed on to our children. I have my grandchildren, they all speak French, they are going to French school. Culture in French here. The cultural aspects of the French language are very important even because as you know, there's a lot of. We're surrounded by the English and the Americans and American culture is pervasive. It's everywhere. So this is our small way of, you know, having an outpost. Like, I don't know if you know, asterisks, Julian.
- [37:17]
B
It's, it's. Yeah, I know, it's, it's like, it's like Hebrew, you know, where you do a print run of 2000 books. How much can you pay the illustrators? And then you have the English speaking Canada where they pay a few thousand dollars more than a few thousand. So a few,ousand times two. But then you go to the States where you can, I don't know, I'm guessing between 10 and $30,000. I don't know what the range is.
- [37:45]
C
Yeah, well, no, that is, that is a fair, that is a fair estimate for the range. It depends on your level, where you're starting from and your level of talent. I expect there's some consideration for the type of techniques that are used that illustrators use.
- [38:02]
B
Well, yes, Julia, but now I'm on a roll here, man. I'm on a roll A bankroll. A bankroll. So. Because I want to pursue one particular aspect of this. So when you are illustrating a book, okay, and you know that you're not a spring chicken, and I wish you to be a summer chicken for many years, whatever that is. But what speaks to you, like what happens when somebody offers you a book that you really want and you know it's only $2,000 and you're working for peanuts? You're still exactly grabbed. You still grab that book.
- [38:41]
C
Yes. Well, it's important for me to still be present in French Canada for my children, for my grandchildren also. It's a lot of fun and there's a lot of creativity in this city, in this province. There's a lot of openness. It's a different. It's like a mix between Europe and American styles.
- [39:08]
B
What.
- [39:08]
C
What I've been told in the States at the beginning, at the outset, was that my style looks very European, yet I can speak English. So I can communicate very. And I understand what the story, how stories are, are written and read in. In the States, in English, Canada. So there's that. It's an open, very creative community here and not so much art direction. I guess I could say that the illustrators, they pretty well, they work with editors, but there's a lot more freedom compared to, let's say, the United States on the other end, where the United States is that you're expected. And I love this. I work very, very closely with the art director and editor in shaping, in creating a book that is because. And that is not because I'm taking orders or I'm being asked to draw a chicken, then I draw a chicken. It's that I'm being asked to be very creative and contribute really an underlying another story to the words. It's like contributing. So you're right. In terms of illustration, it's more than 50%. We illustrators are expected to. And a successful illustrator will develop a total. Will be developing really an underlying story, another something that'll make the words richer and the story deeper and will involve a whole bunch of other senses that the reader will start looking for. You know, will develop the visual senses of a child. The reader will be looking for things in the story while the words are being read as an oral. You know, some people are more. My wife, for instance, is very, very. What do they call it?
- [40:56]
B
Verbal.
- [40:57]
C
She's. Words mean things, sounds mean things. Music means things much more than seeing something. Whereas I'm the opposite. I need to see it.
- [41:06]
B
Is there something called an illustrative subtext.
- [41:10]
C
Yes, there is. That's it a good term? I would say so. And English Canada is also a question of culture because we are different from the Americans. There are different stories being told. A lot of stories can be transported to the States. A lot of our books are exported. However, there is still something that is uniquely Canadian in the way we have our outlook on the world. So there's that. And I feel, well, it's important for me also to be not only present in Quebec, but also present on. Present on a national level. So I'm very willing to work with publishers across Canada. The American market for me was actually. I set it up as a challenge for myself. When I go into a new field of activity, I like to explore and figure out how it works. And then I figure out, well, what is the. You know, what is one of the challenges? Where are things happening? Where is the money being made, for instance? Let's go explore that. And the United States is right next door. So New York is right next door. It wasn't a big jump to go to the conferences or sign up with SCBWI. I must say, though, at being 50 and over 50 years old, I had a certain confidence that I didn't have when I was 20. I remember doing the same exercise in my 20s, trying to learn how graphic design works, how the field works. But I was very, very insecure and very shy. But after a while, after having developed my managerial skills, talking with people, exploring the news media industry in the States and in Canada and in Europe, it was a lot of fun. So they just help. Yeah.
- [43:10]
B
The tiger inside you has. Has gained its stripes.
- [43:14]
C
That's right. That's why I say in the book, too, in the back of the book.
- [43:19]
B
Oh, really?
- [43:20]
C
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I say something very similar to yeah, yeah, yeah. Forward. Yep. Well, not quite. But you. You put your word. You put your. Put the right words on. My tiger has gained its strength. It took a while, but here I am. And it's turned out perfectly. Timing.
- [43:40]
B
Are you having fun? This was a wonderful interview.
- [43:43]
C
Yes, thank you.
- [43:45]
B
We're drying down now, so I want to ask you desperately for young people. It's so hard for authors to break in. It's so hard for illustrators to break in. A couple of words of wisdom, please.
- [43:59]
C
Well, I. I believe in community and in teamwork, and there are so many great organization organizations out there, so I believe in. I believe in mentorships, too. I mentor a number of people over the years, so I believe in passing on information and that kind of information and coaching happens in scbwi, for instance. So that's great. I would encourage people starting out whether no matter what age they are, if they're starting out, sign up with SCBWI or another organization that will have you as a, as in a yet to be published, creative, professional. Go to these workshops, find a mentor. That's one thing. So created, become part of the community. That's like an, for me, that's like a, an easy way of getting and meeting people. Go to the meetings. There's probably meetings in your city. There's probably a chapter in your country. There's probably a professional book organization. Also there's book fairs. Go to the book fair. So the other number two point for me is that you have to read a lot of books. You have to really love kids books. I have hundreds of books here from all kinds of levels of reading, writing, illustrating different styles. You have to. And this is what I told the students this year is that you go to the library if you don't have to buy the books, but go to the library and read, read, read. And ideally read to kids. Read out loud. Also find out what, what makes the kids around you click. Most people have a niece and nephew. If they don't have children of their own, they can find children around them and start being involved with kids and reading to them and finding out what their concerns are. If you're a writer, you need to know what they're thinking. You have to also be. In my case, I have to think like a four year old often. And it is a conscious effort. I don't think automatically like a four year old. So I have to sit down and think, well, what is my, you know, I try and think of what my 3 year old is going through right now. So it's very important for me to observe my grandchildren the different stages of what they're going through now. Three years old, seven years old, 10 years old, that's three different levels. And I'm having a great time discovering what they like, what they read, what are their concerns. Yeah, even a two year old.
- [46:35]
B
Okay, so this is interesting. In one sentence, in one sentence, do you know why you are not an authorist writer?
- [46:45]
C
That's not true. I am working towards that. That's my next goal.
- [46:48]
B
Okay, so I didn't know that.
- [46:51]
C
Yeah, no, it's starting here with Chica Books. My name is on it as the author. So I'm participating actively in the creation, the writing of this book. I have a lot of personal projects on the go. So it is my next step. My next challenge is to write. The first story that I want to write, obviously, is a family story. That's where they usually start for authors. They want to tell their family something. There is an interesting story about my great grandfather from the 1800s that I want to transmit to my grandchildren. And luckily for me, it's a documented story. It's. It's in. I can go to. To the archives of. Of the Hartford Historical Museum. His story is there. Researchers have put out a book in 2018 documenting this also. A lot of this research is already done. It's a. It's a way of turning it into a story that my grandchildren would enjoy and learn something from. So that's one of my first projects. But, yeah, it's. It's. It's a logical step.
- [48:00]
B
Okay, I'm glad you preempted me. Okay. Well, listen, is there anything I haven't asked you because we have to say goodbye to everybody.
- [48:11]
C
Yeah. No. Thank you very much. Thanks for your time. It was wonderful speaking with people. Get something out of it.
- [48:17]
B
Yeah, Thousands of people will. And I can't wait until the next time I actually get to give you a hug. Yeah.
- [48:27]
C
Thank you. I hope to see. I go to Bologna. I'm going to Bologna again because that is a central hub for international illustrators. It's wonderful to see all the styles out there. It's intimidating. It can be overwhelming. At the same time, though, it's mind blowing. So I encourage any illustrators out there in the world that can afford to go to Bologna and authors. We're their authors and authors, too.
- [48:52]
B
So I've been with the incredible illustrator and now author illustrator Julian Chun, celebrating his brand new book together with Stephanie Ellen. See, you can't cave a tiger with owl kids. Many more books out and on the way, and I thank you, Julian. We're going to say goodbye to Tout le Monde and we'll come back in.
- [49:15]
C
For a little tte.
- [49:16]
B
Tte. Oh.
- [49:21]
C
See you again. Thank you very much for coming.
- [49:25]
B
And I'm Mel Rosenberg, and I am the host of the Children's Literature channel of the New Books Network, here with the wonderful Julian Chung. Bye. Bye, everybody. Have a great weekend.
- [49:37]
C
Thank you.
- [49:37]
B
Bye bye, Sam.