Summary: "An Ecological History of Modern China" – New Books Network Interview with Stevan Harrell

Podcast: New Books Network – New Books in Environmental Studies
Guest: Stevan Harrell (Professor Emeritus of Anthropology and Environmental & Forest Sciences, University of Washington)
Host: Brian Hamilton
Episode Date: February 1, 2026
Book Discussed: An Ecological History of Modern China (U Washington Press, 2023)

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores Stevan Harrell’s innovative ecological history of modern China, tracing the intertwined evolution of environmental systems and human society from the rise of the Chinese Communist Party to the present. The discussion delves into how modern China’s environmental and ecological transformations redefine global understanding of development, sustainability, and the relationship between nature and society.

What Is “Ecological History” – Harrell’s Approach

[02:38–05:29]

• Harrell differentiates ecological history from traditional environmental history:
  • Traditional environmental history tends to focus on human decisions and their impacts on the environment, using mainly social science and historical sources.
  • Ecological history adds more science—especially earth sciences—and centers on systems thinking, emphasizing feedbacks, interactions, and the mutual constitution of human and nonhuman variables.
  • Harrell: “If you think about ecology as the way things interact, less in the sense of cause and effect and more in the sense of two things happening together and influencing each other... you get to something which we call a social ecological system.” [04:14]

Land, Water, and Food: Agricultural Change in Modern China

[05:29–26:48]

Post-1949 PRC and Agricultural Investment

[06:17–10:26]

• Despite the Communist Party’s rural base, the PRC prioritized investment in industry over agriculture.
• Three reasons:
  1. Emulation of the Soviet development model, where “industry [was] the driving force of modernization.” [07:34]
  2. Aim to transfer surplus from “wasteful” landlord consumption to state-directed industrialization, essentially shifting the locus of exploitation. [08:31]
  3. Belief in increasing efficiency by collectivizing labor, echoing Marx’s metaphor of peasants as potatoes in a sack. [09:16]

Reframing Chinese Historical Periodization

[10:26–11:15]

• Harrell distinguishes between political and ecological eras, arguing that certain political events (e.g., the Cultural Revolution) are less significant ecologically than events like the Great Leap Forward.

The “Ecological Apocalypse”: The Great Leap Forward (1958–61)

[11:15–17:58]

• Described as an “ecopocalypse” due to the devastation wrought on China’s social-ecological systems.
• Four “horsemen” (failures) responsible:
  1. Overemphasis on single variables (e.g., deep plowing, steel production) led to systemic breakdowns.
  2. Cross-scale mismatches: Policies effective at one scale failed disastrously at local levels (e.g., inappropriate technology transfer).
  3. Top-down panaceas: Central mandates ignored local realities, referencing Elinor Ostrom’s work.
  4. Ignorance of system feedbacks: Authorities ignored negative feedbacks (e.g., waterlogging) and doubled down on failed policies.
• Memorable quote:
  • “...they mobilized everybody to make steel. School teachers are out there building little, you know, three cubic foot blast furnaces... out there... smelting it... because they had to make so much steel.” [13:50]
  • “If you maximize one thing in a system to too great an extent, then the whole system is going to break down.” [12:16]

Twenty-First Century Transformation: From Small Farms to Agribusiness

[17:58–22:54]

• Since 2000, China has seen perhaps “the most profound change in the East Asian countryside since the first foragers settled down 10 millennia ago.” [18:05]
• Change drivers:
  • Rapid rural industrialization; shift from labor-intensive small plots to large-scale, capital-intensive agribusiness
  • Decline in agricultural workforce; rise of non-farming rural residents and corporate farming
  • Complete reversal: “You no longer have an agrarian population. ...big farms are amenable to mechanical and chemical and commercial inputs.” [21:37]

Rigidity Traps in Ecological Systems

[22:54–26:48]

• A “rigidity trap” occurs when productivity-improving infrastructure (e.g., dikes, dams) makes systems inflexible and dependent, trapping societies in ecologically brittle states.
  • Example: Diking lowland rivers allows intensive farming but increases dependency on levee maintenance; when levees fail, consequences are catastrophic.
  • “...the system is highly productive, much more productive than it was before. But it's also very dependent on a narrow or specific set of infrastructure... you can't get rid of it, even though it has negative effects.” [24:51]

The Alternative Food Movement in China

[26:48–31:04]

• Emergence of ecological and organic agriculture, mainly serving urban middle-class concerns over food safety and ecosystem health.
• There is consumer skepticism towards official organic certification; a premium placed on trust and personal relationships with producers.
• Analogous to organic movements in Europe and the US.

Cities and Industry: Urbanization, Industrialization, and Environmental Impact

[31:49–43:36]

Does Political Economy (Capitalism vs. Socialism) Shape Ecological Outcomes?

[32:39–37:28]

• Harrell’s controversial conclusion: political economy (capitalist or socialist) does not significantly alter the ecological trajectory of industrialization.
  • “If you actually look at the effects of early industrialization... it's all the same. It's horribly dirty, it's horribly unhealthy, it's horribly polluting.” [34:07]
  • Remediation follows similar patterns everywhere: “...the same trajectory going on, whether it's capitalist or communist.” [36:28]

“Ecological Civilization” and the Post-2010 Chinese State

[37:28–43:36]

• The CCP’s adoption of “ecological civilization” reflects both a rhetorical commitment and practical policies aimed at integrating environmental sustainability with development.
  • Ecological civilization is positioned as a new historical stage, succeeding agrarian and industrial civilizations.
  • The narrative enables continuity with Marxist teleology while acknowledging environmental crisis.
  • “[It's] a realization that we've gotten ourselves in huge trouble at the same time not giving up the grand historical narrative...” [42:51]

Looking Ahead: China and the Global Environmental Future

[43:36–54:56]

Achievements and Persistent Challenges

[44:09–54:56]

• Encouraging Trends:

  • Forest cover recovery (doubling since 1950s)
  • Improved air quality in major cities
  • A small but growing alternative food movement

• Persistent and Structural Issues:

  • Water pollution and soil contamination remain extremely difficult to mitigate; soil contamination is termed a “long-term thing... stays contaminated for hundreds of years.” [46:16]
  • Chronic flooding exacerbated by infrastructure “fixes to fix to fix”, making future disasters more severe
  • Environmental injustice: rural and minority communities disproportionately affected by project harms
  • Exportation of environmental harm: e.g., importing timber/deforestation from other countries; global greenhouse gas emissions

• Quote on China’s Global Climate Bind:

  • “Its greenhouse gas emissions are greater than those of some very advanced economies... despite the fact that it is undoubtedly the world leader in green energy production.” [52:29]
  • “It’s a paradox. ...They're still using a greater absolute amount of fossil fuels and making... an increasing contribution to global warming.” [52:57]

• Overall Outlook:

  • “Half full or half empty, it's probably 3/4 empty or 2/3 empty... but [China] is a world leader in trying to do things about this.” [54:10]

Memorable Quotes

• On the Distinctiveness of Ecological History:

  • “Humans are really part of this environment. We don't want to make the humans separate. I think that's what distinguishes what I call ecological history from a lot of environmental history.” [05:04]

• On The Great Leap Forward:

  • “The biggest disaster in human history and even bigger than the Black Plague in absolute numbers...” [11:45]

• On Rapid Rural Transformation:

  • “You no longer have an agrarian population. ... It's a sea change, pure and simple, and much bigger than any change that happened before that at any time in history.” [21:37]

• On Capitalism vs. Socialism and Pollution:

  • “If you actually look at the effects ... it’s all the same. It's horribly dirty, it's horribly unhealthy, it's horribly polluting.” [34:07]

• On Ecological Civilization Narrative:

  • “Ecological civilization is both a hope that we'll be able to reach a new kind of, if not equilibrium, at least a reasonably steady state in which we're not continuously degrading the environment.” [41:28]

Author’s Next Projects

[55:09–56:49]

• Personal memoir about starting a rural school in southwest China
• Local agricultural history of Whatcom County, Washington, focusing on its transformation from diverse small farms to specialized cash crops

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Start – End | |-----------------------------------------------|---------------| | What is Ecological History? | 02:38–05:29 | | Post-1949 Agricultural Development | 05:29–10:26 | | Great Leap Forward “Ecopocalypse” | 11:15–17:58 | | 21st Century Agrarian Transformation | 17:58–22:54 | | Rigidity Traps Explained | 22:54–26:48 | | Alternative Food Movement | 26:48–31:04 | | Industrialization: Capitalism vs. Socialism | 32:39–37:28 | | “Ecological Civilization” Policy Shift | 37:28–43:36 | | China’s Environmental Achievements/Challenges | 43:36–54:56 | | Author's Future Projects | 55:09–56:49 |

Tone & Style

• The conversation is informed, reflective, and non-polemical: Harrell is “level-headed” and thorough, frequently correcting popular or simplistic assumptions about both China and environmental change.
• Memorable for its depth, the episode balances both critical warnings and cautious optimism about China’s environmental future.
• Host Brian Hamilton keeps a curious, friendly, and at times self-deprecating approach to his own expertise (“hopeless Americanist”).

For listeners seeking a lucid, up-to-date, and systems-focused understanding of China’s environmental transformation, this podcast serves as both introduction and intellectual provocation. Harrell’s book and insights will be essential for anyone interested in global environmental futures.