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Subah Dayal, "Between Household and State: The Mughal Frontier and the Politics of Circulation in Peninsular India" (U California Press, 2024)
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Prashanto Mukherjee
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Welcome to the New Books Network.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
Welcome to the New Books Network Today. Our guest is Dr. Subha Deyal, the author of between the Household and the State, the Mughal Frontier and the Politics of Circulation in Peninsular India, just recently published by the University of California press. The author, Dr. Dayal is a historian of early modern South Asia with a focus on the intersections of the Persianate and Indian Ocean worlds. Her research interests are in connected histories, household studies, comparative early modernities, global history and pre modern documentary and manuscript cultures. Her writing has also appeared in Comparative studies of South Asia, Africa and the Middle East, Journal of Economic and Social History of the Orient, Iran and the Deccan Persianate Art, Culture and Talent in Circulation and the where. So she is also prolific in the in the popular media, so to speak. Dr. Dayal teaches South Asian history at the NYU the Latin School. Subha, welcome to the New Books Network.
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Thanks so much Prashanto. It's great to be here.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
So the book between the Household and The State, the Mughal Frontier and the Politics of Circulation in Peninsular India is a timely intervention in the history of early modern India. The PL says that the book departs from the dynastic narrations of the Mughal past to highlight the role of elite household and familiar networks in peninsular India. Subha, could you please elaborate for our listeners on this approach, this new approach and how you examine the concept of the the household, or what you call the ghar, as a dynamic and multivalent site that was fundamental to the political and social dynamics of the Mughal frontier? It appears to me that ghar is more than just a household. It's a shared space of belonging and kinship. It's also the socioeconomic production unit, but at the same time it's also the space for contestation and violence, causing interfamilial feuds and anxieties. Could you please elaborate on this key concept?
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Thank you so much for these opening questions. Prashanto so one of the main goals of Between Household and State is to examine the largest pre colonial political formation of premodern South Asia as a mobile entity and as a state that's continuously remade and transformed through its interactions with ordinary itinerant subjects, from scribes and soldiers and laborers who served under elite households and participated in imperial institutions, whether they be army, the court or the bureaucracy. So this portrait moves away from viewing the empire as a stationary or a fixed thing to say, centered only in Delhi or the northern Indian plains, often just held together by individual glamorous emperors. In the book, the stratigraphy of this empire on the move emerges from various types of South Asian and European sources that evoke the central concept of ghar, which organizes the book's journey across peninsular India. So this very common term, ghar, what does it mean in my work and what are its mistakes and why does it matter to the study of the Mughal empire? So you know, ghar has two well known meanings, one of which you said Prashanto, is home or household. And there's a second meaning which is a slot or a single cell or receptacle that convey that it is a singular entity that functions as part of a larger unit or a whole. So from novels to common proverbs to even afternoon soap operas or popular culture or current political debates, this this term is ubiquitous across contemporary South Asia. But in the pre national works examined in the book, I define ghar as a continuum of relations not just limited to sociological kin nor bound to space or territory. Above all, for me, it captures one of the big points of the book, which is that the question of belonging, the, this, the pattern of so many recent studies on the Mughal empire in this part of the world can never be separated from the question of inequality. So belonging within the vertical hierarchy of aghar was a form of privilege, and it works in tandem with the ties that elite households forge with each other horizontally. And of course, this term, ghar, is fundamentally tied to the process of caste or jati formation in pre colonial India, which is of course the most salient social variable in the subcontinent. And it hasn't quite fully been tackled by Mughal historians. So just to give you a quick example, in the first chapter I show how the concept of ghar is evoked by thousands of ordinary soldiers who are doing service or nakri under a lord or a patriarchal head. And when they're interrogated by a low level Mughal scribe, the social interaction is visible. In Persian documents, senses of belonging to a ghar signify an affinity to a city or a descent from a male ancestor, or regions or villages. And in later chapters, Aisho how ghar is also a political concept in literary representations to capture imperial regional rivalries between Mughal Hindustan and the Deccan. So whether the households are Turko, Mongols or, or Afghans or Marathas, the agency of these patriarchal heads is moving across the borders of the north and the south is often circumscribed and limited and contingent on a range of circumstances and depends on how you manage your ordinary personnel and natural resources. And one of the points that the book makes is that the internal politics of aghar compelled these household heads to seek alliances, sometimes across religious divides or kin divides, but also sometimes to enforce boundaries of status and caste and force compromise on their subjects to sustain the grip over offices over generations.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
Right. I mean, this, this is understandable for even my undergraduate students who come to learn about South Asia and, and oftentimes their motivation is movies, right? Movies from Bollywood and the concept of ghar and grana in, especially in music, in classical music and whatnot, those are the concept we have never attached to analyze the state. What's the relationship in between? I can see that that is a gap in scholarly literature that you are addressing. And this is good. This is a very important intervention in that. So apart from Khar, the other title category, it's between the Khara household and the state. So the other title category, the state, it refers to the Mughal empire of the 17th century. Correct. So then, what is the frontier? What is the Mughal frontier? What do we know about reading Mughal history? Reading, teaching Mughal history is which emperor Expanded the territory up to which border and beyond which there is no Mughal. That kind of what you have said, it's just section and section and there is no gray space in the middle. But here is a Mughal frontier that you are defining. What is this? Is this, are they the non imperial states of the Deccan? And just what you have described, how is this frontier mobile? It moves. Could you please elaborate? It's fascinating.
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Yeah. So from say the Ottoman Empire to Qing China, one of the themes that has an animated generations of early modern scholars is to what extent did the pre modern state shape everyday life. So the book is part of a much older, larger conversation on the nature of these empires and how they deal with people on the move. This question of course returns us to the classic work of the late Jim Scott, seeing like a state that had set up a dichotomy between the pre modern and the modern period.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
And.
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Dr. Subha Dayal
But however, what we find in pre colonial sources is many complex mechanisms through which the Mughal Empire, like other political formations in the early modern period, harnessed and tapped into the mobility of its ordinary subjects as a great resource. So my book is invested in understanding the state through by building a bottom up, kind of a granular portrait of this dynamism and the mundane routine operations. So in the last 20 or 30 years there's been innovations in cultural history and the study of literary representations in the Mughal court. So it's no longer that cool to study the state as it was, say in the 60s or 70s or even much earlier. It is the Mughal scholarship. But I'm sort of returning to the older tradition of social history and interested in bringing the state back in, if you will, in the words of Theta, Skoc and others, to make what does this empire mean to ordinary people? You know, it can't just be the genius of individual emperors, but they're actually shaping people's lives and intervening in much more ordinary encounters. So. And as for the term Mughal frontier, I played around and went back and forth with the notion of borderlands or the frontier, and eventually I decided on the latter to capture the central theme of circulation across the peninsula. Again, not as a fixed blank slate, simply that's replaced by all things imperial, but as a dynamic and complex set of processes through which social formations, personnel, resources came to overlap and be shared across northern and southern India. And this term is also partly an homage to and a reversal of a landmark essay by Muzaffaralam and Sanjay Subramaniam, the Deccan Frontier in Mughal Expansion. Because in the book I show the Opposite vantage point how the Mughals look from the perspective of the region and how the very definitions of being Mughal are changed by and transformed through these regional interactions rather than the other way around.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
Okay, here we get an interesting point. Want to talk about. It's the essay that was not published in a book. It's the French essay by Alam and Subronium.
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Yeah, I forget.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
Okay. It's the very, very effective and very long lasting intervention. But in the Alam book it doesn't get translated or reproduced. But. Yeah, but given that what my. What sounded very interesting out of what you said. You are going back to earlier kind of historiography, earlier models of social history. What are those? I mean where are you getting?
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Well, a lot of the materials that I'm working with were, you know, there is a scholarship that came out of Aligarh. That's where we find, you know, scholars who dealt with Persian administrative documents, but also many archivists and bibliographers, including my own teachers, Yaudin Shakib, who produced the first catalogs of Persian documents from the Deccan. And that's. And oftentimes these materials, you know, they are a challenge to the historian because they don't tell straightforward stories. You have to collate thousands of them to get a bigger picture. But you know, the Mughal state is not all poetry and celebrating syncretism. They also have to do work every day, hold the sapphire together. So. And the kind of routine mundane labors that happen at the level of these materials are really visible when we consider them alongside the larger processes that the imperial state is, is, is going through.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
Right, right. So is it. I, I was just reading with my students the, the work of say, because you mentioned earlier, the work of say Irfan Habib.
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Yeah, yeah.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
So his study of Mughal empire is still where we go back to understand the category of Jamindor, the visual chiefs. Right. They were not directly linked to the empire, but they are ruling for the empire, sending tributes and how that formation changes when East India Company comes and develops the category of Jamindar as something else. That's how we teach it. So I'll be looking forward to more of what you get from that scholarship. I'll be very interested. So how is that Mughal frontier then is mobile. What is this politics of circulation that you discuss in the book?
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Yeah. So instead of a notion of a unidirectional mobility which we may we encounter say in terms like influence or incasion, circulation is something that more accurately captures how pre modern actors, whether elite or non elite, move back and forth between sites, whether it's courts or battlefields or port cities. And this exchange moves between two, two or three places again and again, such that the sites develop overlaps or similarities and codependencies. So and these might involve specialized laboring groups or skilled artisans or learned courtly elites moving between regional courts. I want my readers to be able to imagine what it meant for a soldier who has lost his horse and his weapons in battle. He has to report back to his lord stationed in, say, the Eastern Deccan. What does it mean to journey across the dry lands of south central India, say, from the landlocked city of Burhanpur in present day Madhya Pradesh all the way to the Coromandel coast in, say, Andhra? And the reason for making sense of these small scale mobilities and the politics of circulation across these proximate geographies was there are two reasons. The first was by doing so. The book rejects primordial identity as the singular and most important lens through which we write about power and politics in premodern South Asia. And I think that the cross societal engagements and entanglements of household power and the social hierarchies and inequalities it mediated, they kind of push against the idea that the world before colonialism is some sort of utopia or some sort of Kumbaya. And I'm interested in move like, you know, viewing pre colonial state and society. Not there's two opposite lenses. Either it's seen as largely syncretic and pluralistic, with all groups living in perfect harmony, or as inherently or essentially discrete sectarian communities always at odds with each other. But the one of the goals of the book is to bring the looking at circulation across borders and languages and social groups gives us a continuum to explore these familial lineages across these divides. And then a second reason is that circulation helps us collapse the spatial boundaries between northern southern India, the two parts that are imagined as very different in popular and scholarly understandings. There's the relative sociocultural homogeneity of the so called Hindi belt of the north. And then the striking heterogeneities of food, clothing, social practices, even regional political parties in the south. But history is told from the vantage point of political centers such as Delhi, located in the northern plains. And it has shaped how the so called what you know, I put in quotes, the far south of the subcontinent is imagined and subsumed into definitions of something called India. And at the other end there's an another kind of not very generative narrative of local, exceptionalism commonly evoked to mark southern alter. Alterity from the normative south, which isn't very useful either. So the circulation that we see unfolding in this period actually shows the fusing of these two seemingly discrete spatial zones.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
Great, great. So at one point, describing this circulation, you show that this household, the concept of household, as you have described it, anchors that circulation, anchors the mobility. And in the later chapters, it describes that circulation also recreates and reconfigures the constitution of Ghar. Right. So the circulation itself is generated and anchored by the household, and the household in turn is reconfigured by this circulation. Could you say in an. It's a quote. It creates new forms of affinity, belonging and social exclusion. How does that happen, this circulation and the relationship with Khar?
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Yes. So in some of the later chapters of the book that bring together narrative sources in Urdu, along with the archives of the Dutch East India Company, we see social encounters across lines of status and caste. And one of the things that unfolded is that elite households are often forging, indeed, alliances and negotiations with multiple multi religious, multi ethnic communities. But this is also for the purpose of controlling certain economic networks and sites of production of textiles and so forth on the Coromandel coast. And my point is that to kind of see the, as you said, the. The kind of ways in which the household itself, itself is transformed by the choices that these patriarchal heads have to make, which are often motivated by the contingencies on the ground of controlling types of resources and economic and political networks.
- [22:37]
Prashanto Mukherjee
Great, great that you mentioned those records. Well, what kind of archives did you. I mean, this is a novel archive, of course, because we do not get much on the household archive. So to tell us a bit more about the archives and what you mean by saying that these archives helps us move vertically, as you just said, and goes beyond the artificial divide between the court and the street.
- [23:06]
Dr. Subha Dayal
Yes. So I read sources from vastly different linguistic and philosophical worlds. And what the household helps us do is kind of bridge two very distinct lines of inquiry. One is the Persianate and the other is the Indian Ocean. And both of these have usefully decentered Eurocentric models of modernity by reconstructing connections across Asia, Africa and the Middle east in the centuries prior to colonialism. So, on the one hand, we have comparative perspectives on the Persianate that examine the shared acumen of social elites across Iran, Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent. And this scholarship has usefully dismantled colonial and nationalist biases that separated these kindred geographies. But oftentimes, without ever Accounting for, for things like caste or labor or how non elites participate in the day to day work of these empires. And then there's the second route, which is along the seas, which reconstructs connections before Europe. And that is because a parallel development in the period from 1500 to 1800 is the transformation of the global economy from the when the Indian Ocean and the Atlantic become linked from for the first time in world history. But this scholarship generally relies on European language materials and ends up reaffirming, you know, this teleology of European expansion without any engagement with materials in non European languages. And partly that has to do with the accessibility and the nature of sources and sometimes presumed lack or paucity. But I think that's kind of a, or incorrect assumption because there's a lot out there still to work with in non European languages. But the, the archives of the transnational companies that colonize much of the world are very easily accessible. So that's where people turn. The Persianate so far on the one hand focuses just on the court and cultural history. And the Indian Ocean scholarship has been on trade and economic history. So by working across these two types of sources, the book tries to collapse this divide between the court and the state and you know, to put it in very plain terms, to do well or to rule in a part of the world as, as unequal as the Indian subcontinent. Socialists have always had to go and fight wars, besiege cities, monopolize roads and rivers and stock grain and control human resources. And in doing so, these multi religious, multilingual elites encountered a range of non courtly social groups across agrarian realm and the coastal economies. And yes, they do transcend differences of language and kinship and sect, but they often do so without disturbing hierarchies of caste and status in these regions. And so my book is the first to make sense of a fraction of a very enormous documentary deposit of low level Persian administrative materials produced by this moving Mughal frontier. And I read these in tandem with a range of other materials like vernacular narrative poems produced in regional courts and the correspondence of the Dutch East India Company along the coast. And I think finally by working across these different archives, the book affirms the radical equality of literary and non literary sources for the study of pre modern India.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
This is, and listening to your dealing with the archive and thinking that those points where Persian is the language of the court, obviously, but in the Persian document it's getting translated into rural populace where you need to collect your tax or where you need to collect your revenue from the trades and Stuff and you have to bridge between languages because we even teach to our undergrad students that from 15th century, 16th century on, we are seeing this huge upheaval of local languages. Right. Punjabi is coming with Gurmakhi scripts and Bengali is coming up. And then all the languages, all the local Indian vernaculars are coming up. And Persian is often challenged. So how do you go about reading, say, the document from the marriage of one couple, and then that's in Persian, but those marriage customs and the customs also being translated into common general, the household, which is not in Persian, how do you bridge those two to the gap in the archives and documents?
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Yeah, I mean, to be sure, the archive of, say, the state or the administrative documents tells us of a different social function than what, say, the courtly poem tells us about royal celebration or something like that. For me, the unifier across these sources was really the notion of her and how it appears and is deployed towards expressing these different types of affinities. And that's where the kind of connection between these extremely different genres kind of comes alive.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
Right, so suppose this concept of khar, this you are finding in, say, your Persian master rules, right? What. How are they reproduced or not reproduced in, say, European records, say Dutch VOC records? Do you find the references there too?
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Oh, absolutely. Househaden is the word that the Dutch often use to identify these independent households that are moving from the Deccan into the coastal areas of the southern Coromandel, for instance. So there is a notion of, you know, what is the relationship of these households to the regional court or to the Mughals? They're sort of trying to make sense of, you know, the degree of autonomy and that provincial elites have from, you know, say, the imperial capitals or wherever else. So, yeah, there is a definitely an similar, if, you know, different terminology used to identify the ghar in European materials.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
Okay, that's very interesting because just yesterday we were by we, I mean, I and my children, we are reading Francois Barnier's letter to Colbert describing Mughal empire. We read it for a different reason, to show what is oriented despotism and not. But what we glean from that is often voluntary closing of eyes to see the value of the historical necessity of those documents and the administrative structure of the. And whatnot. But it's interesting that the Dutch company records are really trying to understand because they are in business of making money. Right. That they need to understand this politics of ghar in. And it's in that frontier area. It has to happen where the Mughal empire is not clearly defined, then There are the sultan courts and then there are the military barracks and ports where people are moving. Right. It's the mobility.
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Dr. Subha Dayal
So, yeah, I mean, in my final chapter, I found this striking material of the, of the Dutch really trying to figure out what is going on in Bijapur at this time. And they're also partisans of Khatija Sultana, who is one of the queens. And they collect all the rumors about what has been going on. And she's involved in this assassination plot of an Afghan family. And their. They're not able to figure out, you know, what is, who is on what side. And they keep bringing in all of the figures, the Africans, the Marathas, to kind of make sense of exactly who they should be talking to and getting kids from or, you know, whose side they should be taking. So.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
And yeah, so this is fascinating, especially in this period of time when, when European, it's very much mobile through the Mughal empire and through the frontier of the Mughal empire. That's great. This is, this has been a fascinating talk. Subha, thank you for making the time to discuss about the book. What is your next project? What are you looking you're working on now?
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Dr. Subha Dayal
So I've been actually quite a while. You know how you kind of grow out of your first project and then when you find your second, everything comes a little quicker on the second project. So my next book actually writes the Islamic port city into global history. It's a comparative study of the bureaucratic cultures and scribal cultures of three Mughal and Safwid port cities. Bandrabas, Surat in the Persian Gulf and Masiutnam in the Bay of Bengal.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
Okay.
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Of course, the big question that has animated all my work has been how did pre colonial empires of South Asia and Middle east connect the land to the seas and the seas to the land? And as we just talked, the between household and state moved from the Mughal heartland in the north towards south central India and the coast. The second project goes in the other direction from the sea to the land from these port cities and traces their relationships to the agrarian hinterland and to imperial capitals. And again, there's been this consistent assumption that these empires didn't don't have maritime archives or therefore they had no interest in the seas and that's why they were colonized by European powers. But actually the materials that I'm looking at which, you know, show this scribal labor performed in the Islamic court city and how they implement regulations, shaped the very terrain on which translational companies walked on or operated. And in Some ways, this project is also kind of a prehistory of Orientalism because it taps into bilingual documents in Dutch, and you see anonymous scribes translating and working across two distinct writing cultures. They're, you know, kind of reproducing seals and attestations and archival practices. And it. It's. Once again, this project is trying to go, you know, go away from the easy access of European language archives in French and in Dutch and instead try to make sense of the indigenous templates and material practices that underlay these interactions in the Indian Ocean. And then the other side is that we need to move the study of the Persianate from the court to the coast in order to get a much more, you know, sense of how it's shaped the social and economic lives of ordinary subjects.
- [36:11]
Prashanto Mukherjee
That. That is very interesting because I'm listening to you and thinking of this, this anecdote I heard or read about somewhere that Habib, after doing his study, he was kind of challenged by the maritime historian Ashwin Dar Gupta, who said that, well, there was maritime trade, maritime warfare, and European companies are coming in. And the history of Mughal Empire, you write, it's only in the landlocked. So then Habib answered in his own way that, yes, maritime trade and warfare was there and Europeans are coming in, but Mughal empire is still on India. Right. It's on the land of India. So, I mean, there was a kind of impasse, impasse between maritime history and land history. So you're going from this direction in the first work, second work, you are going from the maritime history to that. And this is. This is where we need to know more because I'll be teaching about East India Company and the coming of Orientalism. Right. Everything starts with William Jones. Why there were no one else before.
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Right.
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Prashanto Mukherjee
To know.
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Dr. Subha Dayal
Right, right, right, right, yeah. And some of these materials go back, you know, say, the 1620s, much before William Jones, like 200 years before. And. And they're about, again, very prosaic. You know, how the Dutch are allowed to lease a house and they're issued like a, you know, a Persian order. And so how does that translation happen? How is it attested and so forth? So I'm kind of working across these bilingual materials to get at those things.
- [38:22]
Prashanto Mukherjee
I'll be personally looking forward to it. Is it planned? Have you written already? It's coming.
- [38:28]
Dr. Subha Dayal
I have a new article in the Journal of Early Modern History on Muga Polo Plan, actually, from one of these collections and what they may tell us about, once again, these port city scribes. And. Yeah, so that's the first thing that's come out and I've. Yeah.
- [38:50]
Prashanto Mukherjee
Okay. So hopefully we'll meet you again with your new book.
- [38:55]
Dr. Subha Dayal
Okay.
- [38:56]
Prashanto Mukherjee
Very spirit. Best wishes for that and thank you very much for making the time for this book. Between the Household and State, the Mughal Frontier and the Politics of Circulation in Peninsular India, published by University of California Press. Dear listeners, please get the book. It's worth reading it. Please get the book. Thank you. Thank you very much.
- [39:26]
Dr. Subha Dayal
Thank you so much, Prashanto. Thank you.
- [39:41]
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Dr. Subha Dayal
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