Susan Ashbrook Harvey, "Ministries of Song: Women’s Voices in Ancient Syriac Christianity" (U California Press, 2025)

Podcast Summary:

New Books Network: Susan Ashbrook Harvey on "Ministries of Song: Women’s Voices in Ancient Syriac Christianity"
Host: Mike Motilla
Guest: Susan Ashbrook Harvey
Publish Date: December 9, 2025

Overview:

This episode features a deep-dive conversation between host Mike Motilla and renowned historian Susan Ashbrook Harvey about her groundbreaking book, Ministries of Song: Women’s Voices in Ancient Syriac Christianity (University of California Press, 2025). The discussion peels back the layers of ancient Christian history to uncover the central roles women played as choir leaders, teachers, and transmitters of faith through song in the Syriac Christian tradition, with a focus on the 4th to 6th centuries. Harvey’s research illuminates how these women’s choirs were not merely a liturgical anomaly but a fundamental social force—often shaping the community’s experience of Christianity as much as, or more than, the better-documented sermons and bishops.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Shifting the Historical Lens: From Bishops to Choirs

The Challenge of Women’s History: Motilla opens by observing how standard histories focus on male clerics and councils, overlooking the everyday realities of worship and community, especially the crucial roles of women’s choirs in teaching and transmitting faith.
- “It was choirs, and often choirs of women, who were the real Christian teachers in the 4th century.” (02:52)
Visibility Through Song: Women’s roles are often ‘hidden’ in historical records, but Syriac sources—canons, homilies, some laws—allow scholars to reconstruct the social tapestry these choirs represented.

2. Why Write a Book Focused on Women?

Reclaiming Women’s History: Harvey reflects on how, since the late 20th century, academia’s “literary turn” made historians focus on gender and fluidity, sometimes at the expense of writing about women themselves.
- “In some ways, this is an old fashioned book because it is unashamedly about women... I feel like a dinosaur doing this.” (09:33)
Dangers of Erasure: She warns that ignoring ‘women’ as a category can “overvalue the men and exaggerate their authority.”

3. What Did Syriac Women’s Choirs Really Look Like?

Small and Local, Yet Central:
- Usually small groups (around 6–8), composed of consecrated virgins known as "Daughters of the Covenant," distinct from nuns or deaconesses.
- “These were not choirs of nuns… They had a ministry. They did what bishops asked them to do. And a big part of that ministry was these choirs in the liturgy.” (13:20)
Tasks: Leading “teaching hymns” (madroshe), responses, Alleluias, and Amens.
Widespread Practice: While the focus is Syriac Christianity due to richer evidence, such choirs existed “all over the Mediterranean world” in various traditions.

4. How Did Choirs Shape Religious Life and Education?

Liturgy as Primary Education:
- “Everything was sung from the opening invocation to the final benediction of the service… And liturgy was the location for religious education in the ancient world. That’s where you learned what it meant to be a Christian.” (26:08)
- Choirs were crucial because most people were illiterate; song and repetition enabled communal learning.
Authoritative Teaching: These were formal roles where women taught collectively agreed doctrine through song.

5. Distinctiveness of Syriac Women’s Choirs

Real and Civic: Unlike idealized or monastic choirs in other traditions, Syriac women’s choirs operated in public, civic churches.
- “We have… canon law… that specifies that every village, town and city church must have a women’s choir…” (18:59)
Teaching Songs Unique to Syriac:
- Madroshe—hymns focused on doctrinal instruction—were typically sung by women’s choirs; not directly paralleled in Greek or Latin contexts.

6. Sources and Methodology

Mosaic of Thin, Rich Evidence:
- Harvey describes reconstructing the history from “tiny scraps… half a sentence in a sermon…” and piecing them together “like a mosaic built out of tesserae.” (22:00)
Lightbulb Moment: Realizing that 6th-century liturgies were surround-sound experiences, with women’s voices echoing from several locations simultaneously: at the front as choir, in biblical character enactments, and as part of the congregation's responses. (24:03)
- “I had never thought about liturgy as a place where, in fact, you were being surrounded by voices of women.”
- Memorable quote: “Their voices echoed through streets and between homes. Their melodies taught Christians about God, humanity, sacred stories, and holy moments.” (around 05:00)

7. Performance and Training

From Ordinary to Expert:
- Most singers were ordinary women, but advanced training existed, especially in cities (e.g., the school of Nisibis).
- “This was a skill and it required training. And obviously some people had access to more extensive training than others.” (42:05)
Learning by Doing: Frequent daily rehearsals (per sources about Ephraim) and skills in reading, music, and leading congregational refrains.

8. Relations to Gender, Authority, and Social Anxiety

Authority through Song: Choirs embodied real teaching authority, sometimes justified by liturgical writers—Jacob of Sarug, e.g., reinterprets Paul’s “women should keep silent” as obsolete in the new dispensation.
- “Now Jacob says women should open their mouths and sing... Both men and women should open their mouths to sing praise with a loud voice.” (43:15)
- Notable quote: “He likes the verb thundering when he describes the women sing. They thundered.” (43:15)
Negotiating Social Roles: Biblical women heroes are “loud, bold, and audaciously persistent,” often acting in ways that subvert male authority or expectations.
- “Men are often only present as obstacles the women must overcome.” (47:05)
Boundary Enforcement: Yet, some sources (e.g., Jacob’s homily on the Samaritan woman) show women being “shut down” when perceived as too prideful or authoritative—a warning about social control. (68:18)

9. Dialogic and Dramatic Song Forms

Sokyoto (Dialogue Hymns):
- Dramatic, antiphonal songs between two characters (often a man and a woman), sung by two choirs.
- Example: Extensive debate between Mary and Joseph (dialogic, combative, sometimes directly refuting “be silent, you’re a woman” with “I will not.”) (50:11, 53:00)
- Congregations acted as witnesses, singing refrains.

10. Choirs in Civic and Outdoor Contexts

Processions:
- Public religious processions brought choirs, clergy, and laypeople through city streets, with women’s choirs highly visible and audible, transforming the city into a “church.”
- “You’re sanctifying all of that public space. It rendered the women’s choirs even more visible and certainly rendered them audible.” (76:17)
Funeral Laments:
- Women’s choirs also played central roles in mourning rituals, connecting personal grief to biblical narratives (e.g., Mary’s lament for Jesus).
- “Every biblical story is our own story, and our own stories are also part of this biblical story…” (81:11)

11. Legacy and Relevance

Modern Survival:
- This tradition endures into the present—Syriac churches (both Orthodox and Church of the East) maintain active women’s choirs worldwide as vital community fixtures.
- “These churches… have thriving and flourishing choirs that include women... they lead the congregation in singing the traditional Syriac hymns.” (84:16)
Hope for Readers and Scholars:
- For Christians: A reminder that women’s participation is ancient, central, not a modern invention.
- For scholars: “Liturgy is part of social history and of daily life in the ancient world… We need to rethink how we tell history and how we include women in it and how we learn from that history.” (86:37)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Susan Ashbrook Harvey (09:33):
“In some ways, this is an old fashioned book because it is unashamedly about women. I often say I feel like a dinosaur doing this.”
Susan Ashbrook Harvey (43:15):
“Now Jacob says women should open their mouths and sing... Both men and women receive the same salvation. So both men and women should open their mouths to sing praise with a loud voice.”
Susan Ashbrook Harvey (50:11):
“There was a dialogue hymn in Syriac between the Virgin Mary and her husband Joseph… Joseph says, shut up. You're a woman. You can't talk to me. And she says, literally, I will not shut up. I will not be silent.”
Susan Ashbrook Harvey (61:18):
“Because women's choirs are thundering forth their praise, the work of God is happening.”
Susan Ashbrook Harvey (68:18):
“At the end of Jacob's homily, he has [the Samaritan woman] go overboard... and so he shuts her down, the community shuts her down… There's an agenda of social control here, and it's an important one.”

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:07 | Intro: Framing the subject—women’s choirs as central, not fringe | | 06:28 | Harvey’s academic journey—how working on smell led to studying women’s choirs | | 09:33 | Why focus on ‘women’ and not just ‘gender?’ | | 12:20 | Reconstructing what Syriac women’s choirs really were | | 18:08 | What was distinctive about the Syriac context? | | 22:00 | Evidence: Mosaics, fragments, and revelatory sources | | 24:03 | “Surround sound” of women’s voices in liturgy—Harvey’s lightbulb moment | | 26:08 | How liturgical song provided religious education | | 42:05 | Choir training and rehearsals—skill and authority | | 43:15 | Jacob of Sarug’s radical claim: Women’s singing as a sign of redeemed humanity | | 50:11 | Dialogue hymns: The combative conversations between biblical women and men | | 68:18 | Patriarchal boundaries—how women’s voices were permitted, controlled, or shut down | | 74:28 | Public processions and the civic dimension of women’s choirs | | 78:24 | Women as professional mourners at funerals | | 81:11 | Choirs connecting personal grief to sacred stories | | 83:51 | Living legacies: Modern survival of Syriac women’s choirs | | 85:28 | Hopes for readers: Remembering women’s centrality—then and now |

Final Takeaways

Women’s choirs were foundational, not peripheral, to ancient Syriac Christian life and to the spread of Christian doctrine and community memory.
Their legacy continues in vibrant forms today.
Harvey’s book calls for a reexamination of how scholars write the history of Christianity—centering song, experience, and the women who “thundered” these traditions forth.

Podcast Summary:

Overview:

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Shifting the Historical Lens: From Bishops to Choirs

The Challenge of Women’s History: Motilla opens by observing how standard histories focus on male clerics and councils, overlooking the everyday realities of worship and community, especially the crucial roles of women’s choirs in teaching and transmitting faith.
- “It was choirs, and often choirs of women, who were the real Christian teachers in the 4th century.” (02:52)
Visibility Through Song: Women’s roles are often ‘hidden’ in historical records, but Syriac sources—canons, homilies, some laws—allow scholars to reconstruct the social tapestry these choirs represented.

2. Why Write a Book Focused on Women?

Reclaiming Women’s History: Harvey reflects on how, since the late 20th century, academia’s “literary turn” made historians focus on gender and fluidity, sometimes at the expense of writing about women themselves.
- “In some ways, this is an old fashioned book because it is unashamedly about women... I feel like a dinosaur doing this.” (09:33)
Dangers of Erasure: She warns that ignoring ‘women’ as a category can “overvalue the men and exaggerate their authority.”

3. What Did Syriac Women’s Choirs Really Look Like?

Small and Local, Yet Central:
- Usually small groups (around 6–8), composed of consecrated virgins known as "Daughters of the Covenant," distinct from nuns or deaconesses.
- “These were not choirs of nuns… They had a ministry. They did what bishops asked them to do. And a big part of that ministry was these choirs in the liturgy.” (13:20)
Tasks: Leading “teaching hymns” (madroshe), responses, Alleluias, and Amens.
Widespread Practice: While the focus is Syriac Christianity due to richer evidence, such choirs existed “all over the Mediterranean world” in various traditions.

4. How Did Choirs Shape Religious Life and Education?

Liturgy as Primary Education:
- “Everything was sung from the opening invocation to the final benediction of the service… And liturgy was the location for religious education in the ancient world. That’s where you learned what it meant to be a Christian.” (26:08)
- Choirs were crucial because most people were illiterate; song and repetition enabled communal learning.
Authoritative Teaching: These were formal roles where women taught collectively agreed doctrine through song.

5. Distinctiveness of Syriac Women’s Choirs

Real and Civic: Unlike idealized or monastic choirs in other traditions, Syriac women’s choirs operated in public, civic churches.
- “We have… canon law… that specifies that every village, town and city church must have a women’s choir…” (18:59)
Teaching Songs Unique to Syriac:
- Madroshe—hymns focused on doctrinal instruction—were typically sung by women’s choirs; not directly paralleled in Greek or Latin contexts.

6. Sources and Methodology

Mosaic of Thin, Rich Evidence:
- Harvey describes reconstructing the history from “tiny scraps… half a sentence in a sermon…” and piecing them together “like a mosaic built out of tesserae.” (22:00)
Lightbulb Moment: Realizing that 6th-century liturgies were surround-sound experiences, with women’s voices echoing from several locations simultaneously: at the front as choir, in biblical character enactments, and as part of the congregation's responses. (24:03)
- “I had never thought about liturgy as a place where, in fact, you were being surrounded by voices of women.”
- Memorable quote: “Their voices echoed through streets and between homes. Their melodies taught Christians about God, humanity, sacred stories, and holy moments.” (around 05:00)

7. Performance and Training

From Ordinary to Expert:
- Most singers were ordinary women, but advanced training existed, especially in cities (e.g., the school of Nisibis).
- “This was a skill and it required training. And obviously some people had access to more extensive training than others.” (42:05)
Learning by Doing: Frequent daily rehearsals (per sources about Ephraim) and skills in reading, music, and leading congregational refrains.

8. Relations to Gender, Authority, and Social Anxiety

Authority through Song: Choirs embodied real teaching authority, sometimes justified by liturgical writers—Jacob of Sarug, e.g., reinterprets Paul’s “women should keep silent” as obsolete in the new dispensation.
- “Now Jacob says women should open their mouths and sing... Both men and women should open their mouths to sing praise with a loud voice.” (43:15)
- Notable quote: “He likes the verb thundering when he describes the women sing. They thundered.” (43:15)
Negotiating Social Roles: Biblical women heroes are “loud, bold, and audaciously persistent,” often acting in ways that subvert male authority or expectations.
- “Men are often only present as obstacles the women must overcome.” (47:05)
Boundary Enforcement: Yet, some sources (e.g., Jacob’s homily on the Samaritan woman) show women being “shut down” when perceived as too prideful or authoritative—a warning about social control. (68:18)

9. Dialogic and Dramatic Song Forms

Sokyoto (Dialogue Hymns):
- Dramatic, antiphonal songs between two characters (often a man and a woman), sung by two choirs.
- Example: Extensive debate between Mary and Joseph (dialogic, combative, sometimes directly refuting “be silent, you’re a woman” with “I will not.”) (50:11, 53:00)
- Congregations acted as witnesses, singing refrains.

10. Choirs in Civic and Outdoor Contexts

Processions:
- Public religious processions brought choirs, clergy, and laypeople through city streets, with women’s choirs highly visible and audible, transforming the city into a “church.”
- “You’re sanctifying all of that public space. It rendered the women’s choirs even more visible and certainly rendered them audible.” (76:17)
Funeral Laments:
- Women’s choirs also played central roles in mourning rituals, connecting personal grief to biblical narratives (e.g., Mary’s lament for Jesus).
- “Every biblical story is our own story, and our own stories are also part of this biblical story…” (81:11)

11. Legacy and Relevance

Modern Survival:
- This tradition endures into the present—Syriac churches (both Orthodox and Church of the East) maintain active women’s choirs worldwide as vital community fixtures.
- “These churches… have thriving and flourishing choirs that include women... they lead the congregation in singing the traditional Syriac hymns.” (84:16)
Hope for Readers and Scholars:
- For Christians: A reminder that women’s participation is ancient, central, not a modern invention.
- For scholars: “Liturgy is part of social history and of daily life in the ancient world… We need to rethink how we tell history and how we include women in it and how we learn from that history.” (86:37)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Susan Ashbrook Harvey (09:33):
“In some ways, this is an old fashioned book because it is unashamedly about women. I often say I feel like a dinosaur doing this.”
Susan Ashbrook Harvey (43:15):
“Now Jacob says women should open their mouths and sing... Both men and women receive the same salvation. So both men and women should open their mouths to sing praise with a loud voice.”
Susan Ashbrook Harvey (50:11):
“There was a dialogue hymn in Syriac between the Virgin Mary and her husband Joseph… Joseph says, shut up. You're a woman. You can't talk to me. And she says, literally, I will not shut up. I will not be silent.”
Susan Ashbrook Harvey (61:18):
“Because women's choirs are thundering forth their praise, the work of God is happening.”
Susan Ashbrook Harvey (68:18):
“At the end of Jacob's homily, he has [the Samaritan woman] go overboard... and so he shuts her down, the community shuts her down… There's an agenda of social control here, and it's an important one.”

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

Final Takeaways

Women’s choirs were foundational, not peripheral, to ancient Syriac Christian life and to the spread of Christian doctrine and community memory.
Their legacy continues in vibrant forms today.
Harvey’s book calls for a reexamination of how scholars write the history of Christianity—centering song, experience, and the women who “thundered” these traditions forth.

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Summary

Podcast Summary:

Overview:

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Shifting the Historical Lens: From Bishops to Choirs

2. Why Write a Book Focused on Women?

3. What Did Syriac Women’s Choirs Really Look Like?

4. How Did Choirs Shape Religious Life and Education?

5. Distinctiveness of Syriac Women’s Choirs

6. Sources and Methodology

7. Performance and Training

8. Relations to Gender, Authority, and Social Anxiety

9. Dialogic and Dramatic Song Forms

10. Choirs in Civic and Outdoor Contexts

11. Legacy and Relevance

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

Final Takeaways

Further Reading & Upcoming Work

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Overview:

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Shifting the Historical Lens: From Bishops to Choirs

2. Why Write a Book Focused on Women?

3. What Did Syriac Women’s Choirs Really Look Like?

4. How Did Choirs Shape Religious Life and Education?

5. Distinctiveness of Syriac Women’s Choirs

6. Sources and Methodology

7. Performance and Training

8. Relations to Gender, Authority, and Social Anxiety

9. Dialogic and Dramatic Song Forms

10. Choirs in Civic and Outdoor Contexts

11. Legacy and Relevance

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

Final Takeaways

Further Reading & Upcoming Work