A (3:41)

Well, you know, it's a little bit of both, actually. I used to teach in the summers at the Appalachian Young Writers Workshop that was sponsored by Humanities Tennessee. And this was a workshop camp designed for high school kids that came from the mountains, and it was located right where Tennessee, Kentucky and Virginia come together. So at the beginning of every session, I would walk the kids up to the hilltop cemetery on the campus of Lincoln Memorial University where we held the camp. And I would say, okay, you guys from. You have to come up with a character that you're going to develop based on two things. The land around you and any clues that the land offers. And a tombstone and any clues that the tombstone offers. Because for one week, I wanted these kids to write about a real human being and not a zombie. And so one of the tombstones there said Leonard Bush's leg, 1923. I thought this was amazing. And in those two years, not one kid wrote about Leonard Bush, but I could not shake him. And that was that. That tombstone. That's what started it all.

B (5:00)

I have to ask, as someone who has personally written about more tombstones than I would care to admit, just because I'm not naturally a morbid person, so it's so strange that I do this, but did you find out anything about the act? The real. I mean, Leonard here feels pretty real to me in your novel, but the. The leg, the person who the leg belongs to in that hilltop cemetery, it did.

A (5:21)

After about a year, when I just could not shake the idea of this person, Leonard Bush. I reached out to the university and all they knew was that Leonard Bush was 12 years old when he lost his leg.

B (5:34)

And.

A (5:35)

And that was really all I needed to know. And from there, you know, everything just started spinning in my head. It wasn't until the book Came out that I actually learned more about the real Leonard Bush and that, you know, he had actually cut his foot on a piece of rusty barbed wire which had led to infection. My Leonard cuts his foot on a piece of glass, but he's down near the riverbank where a lot of cattle are grazing. And so his becomes infected. And just recently I've. I've actually connected with some of the. The real Leonard Bush's family. And I found out that his body is actually buried on the other side of the highway.

B (6:19)

I really found it fascinating and moving and true to life that it was a bottle cap, a dirty bottle cap that ends up being the causes little nick of him losing his entire leg. Because I'm reading it and you know, there's a suspense in the beginning and this is no spoilers. We find out quite quickly how the leg is lost. That's not really one of the main mysteries of the story. But I, I, you know, I was thinking, oh, was it this catastrophic traumatic event? I mean, losing a leg is pretty traumatic, but you know, an accent. I live in a farming community and I'm surrounded by farmers who have appendage is missing from traumatic and horrendous accidents. And I was waiting for something like that. And then when it was, when it was this cut from a bottle cap, very innocuous. At first I thought about how that felt very true to me as someone who has cut my wrist gardening and had my whole all the veins in that arm turn black and I needed to go on antibiotics for it. And I thought, wow, I would have lost my arm if it hadn't been for modern medicine. So I loved that detail of the story. And it turns out it was very true to the detail or the life of the original or the inspiration of Leonard Bush. My next question for you is about June, who as a mother myself, I found to be infuriatingly compelling. She is someone who is coddling Leonard, perhaps understandably so, but is dealing with a lot of her own demons and her own damage and trying to mother at the same time. And at first, you know, when we first get to know her, at least for me, I was thinking, oh, this, this woman is driving me crazy. She's. She's so grating. But then like an, like an onion or I'm not gonna ditch the onion metaphor right now, because it felt more like a flower blooming, like a very beautiful unf. Folding of each petal of her personality. She came into being in full life and she ended up being probably my favorite character in the Whole book. And I'd love to hear about creating June.

A (8:34)

Thank you. I, I love June too. And probably because as a mother, I, I know how difficult the job is. And poor June came to it with so much loss and, and damage of her own that the fact that she did parent as well as she did was rather remarkable. But she also, because of her childhood and what she experienced, she is a very anxious, apprehensive, God fearing mother. So on the one hand, you know, she's at church, doesn't, doesn't miss a service, but she's also very superstitious. So, you know, she is convinced that bad things come in threes. So when Leonard loses his leg and she recently had lost her dear friend, she was convinced that more, you know, more bad things were, were waiting out there and she had to be very, very careful. And that actually led her to, to what appears to the reader at first to be very, very insensitive to some of the people around her who really needed some kindness and care.

B (9:43)

Absolutely insensitive. I think that was the part where I was, you know, yelling at the book. But I also, while I was infuriated and aggravated with this character, I had complete trust in you, Susan, as the storyteller. I was already invested. I already believed you would give me the information I needed in due time. So I wasn't particularly worried about my frustration with the character. I was happy to be frustrated with the character because that's all part of the experience. My, my next question, and one that I find deeply important, is your portrayal of Rose, who is the town prostitute, the town sex worker. And it was done with such a balance of, I would say, a contemporary sensitivity towards who Rose would have been then. But that contemporary sensitivity did not in any way paint over or detract from the fact that who she would have, how she would have been viewed by her contemporaries in the time of this book was that would have not been favorably. And I'd love for you to talk about striking that balance.

A (10:57)

Rose is a character that I cared very much about in, as I do all of them. But I felt just such a sensitivity to her because she was in the position that she was in and working the, in the job that she was working in because she felt she had no other option because people, you know, so often the case had failed her and so she had to put food on the table and this was the one way that she could do that. And, you know, she did reach out at times to people. And you know, when the, when the women from the church first came to her from this small East Tennessee church, came to her and offered help. You know, she was so hopeful. But when Rose didn't, you know, walk the line that these church women wanted her to walk, then they just kind of pushed her aside and ignored her. And, you know, then her, Rose's sweet little 12 year old daughter Azalea really becomes the mother in the relationship. And, and nothing really is pulled from, you know, my own life experience per se, but I do know, you know, to my mother was an amazing, is an amazing mother. Was an amazing mother, but she had a lot of loss in her life and there were times where I felt that I was kind of mothering my mother. And so I think that was what guided my creation really, or you know, the writing of Azalea. So there, that mother daughter relationship was, was really important to me.

B (12:45)

Yes, the, the whole book and especially that relationship and the character of Rose specifically felt to me the underpinning of what I would consider books are mirrors. And what I was seeing and feeling a lot in your book was a meditation on grace. The grace we give each other, the grace we withhold from each other. And why do we withhold that grace from each other? And it was especially for right now in the world and my experiences in the world. It felt deeply important and timely. And I was saying to you before we started this interview that I thought, okay, I will read this book and schedule an interview for later this year because, you know, I'm busy, et cetera, et cetera. And then I read the book. I need, I was like, I need to talk to Susan right now about this book. And I'm, I'm so delighted that I'm getting to talk to you. And I was in the book, I was invested from the first page, which is what we're going to talk about right now. And I believe it's what you're going to read to us from is that first page. Because it's just so utterly captivating. So, Susan, if you're ready, I would love for you to read for us.

A (13:57)

I, I am and I just, I do want to just say one thing. I really, really appreciate that last comment because I feel like grace is so often a topic that I think about and why we withhold it sometimes, why we give it to others, how you know, something that I think we're all do. And the fact that you commented on it that way really means a lot to me. So with that said, let me read two paragraphs from the first page. And this chapter is told from Leonard's point of view. In the beginning, Leonard wasn't thinking about God or other high minded things. Nor was he concerned with talk of sin and salvation or destiny and calling, although those words swirled about him mightily. Once news of the amputation spread, he paid neighbors prophecies no mind. He was only 12 years old and not yet ready to consider how loss and contrition might shape his life's journey. For now, Leonard was certain of only one thing. His leg needed a proper goodbye, one that came with the preacher prayers and a bit of hymn singing. From the start, his mother, June argued that it was too soon for such a public show, that Leonard's skin was pale as milk and his thoughts muddled from the trauma of his recent loss. Abundant evidence, she told him outright, that his judgment was not sound. Besides, your leg ain't some souvenir for safekeeping, she said. She wiped tears from her eyes, then kissed his forehead and checked the stump for any lingering signs of infection. But Leonard's thinking was straight, and years later, his memory of that day would remain clear.

B (15:41)

What an opening. There's so many questions and just the right amount of intrigue and information to just swallow a reader. At least this reader hole. Thank you so much for that reading, Susan.

A (15:54)

Thank you for letting me share this with people. I really appreciate it. So good, so good, so good.

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B (17:29)

Oh, absolutely. So I still, I still have some more questions and I would probably talk to you for about five hours about your book, but we're, we're not going to go down the rabbit hole of Holly's brain. It's a strange place. But I do want to talk a little bit about June's relationship with her husband, Emmett, and Emmett's as a father. Because there is one scene in the book where Emmett, and I'm not gonna preface this with anything, I'm just gonna say it, that Emmett has his foot crammed into his son's cleat. And that tension, that pain that you describe and show to us in that scene feels like such a perfect metaphor for so much that Emmett is going through. And I wanted to talk about creating Emmett and how Emmett came to you because he seems like such a gorgeously complicated character on the inside, but on the outside he seems like a typical dairy farmer. If, you know, a stereotypical dairy farmer we'd think of.

A (18:28)

Well, you know, the book really is in many ways about loss and recovery and joy and the hope that comes, you know, after the loss and the grief. But. And Emmett is no different. I mean, he has tremendous loss in his childhood as well as does June, but they were raised dealing with it in very different ways. And then their son's loss kind of brings all of this to the surface. So, you know, Emmett has always been this stoic dad, you know, strong dairy farmer. You know, you don't show emotion, you don't express much emotion. And he doesn't tolerate, you know, all of June's crying and carrying inside. I mean, he's really hurting and, and struggling to come to terms with not only his own loss, but now his, you know, son's loss of his leg. And so, yeah, in that moment when he, he's just so desperately trying to like, I think, capture the, the way life had been before the loss of Leonard's leg that, you know, June walks in and he is, he has got his foot stuck inside Leonard's baseball shoe because he just, he wants his skin, you know, to rub up against the same leather that used to hold Leonard's foot. It's just, he can't really explain it, but he just needs that sensory connection to the way his son had been.

B (20:00)

The relationship between him and the son is so touching because While Leonard's mother clearly loves the ever loving cookies out of this kid, his father is his soft spot. Which is something that was a really nice portrayal for me. Where you know, mothers know traditionally can often be seen as soft spots. In this case the father was his soft spot, but I don't feel like he. Because there's so much hurt and so much pain he could also go to neither of his parents would his actual concerns one of his closest friends, Azalea, who is the daughter of Rose, the town's prostitute and who suffers her own isolation and discrimination at school because of what her mother does and what everybody knows her mother does. Her and Leonard have this bond that is quite touching of misfits. And I was on a, a panel this weekend actually about panels about poetry, so we'll skip that. I listened to a panel this weekend at a writers festival I was at and they were talking YA books and about how part. And to be clear for our listeners, this is not marketed as a YA book but I do think it might appeal to YA readers and for that reason is deals with that isolation of young people that I think is often so critical for ya. And I would love for you to talk about the isolation of Azalea and her and Leonard's relationship and finding comfort in each other.

A (21:33)

She feels a tremendous amount of embarrassment and shame, you know, just by the line of work that her mother is in and the fact that they have so little and you know, she often isn't even able to go to school because she has to take care of her little 10 month old brother. So you know, Azalea is very much on the outside of things in this East Tennessee town. She doesn't go to church regularly and not at all. Um, so she, and she kind of pushes a little bit. She's a little resistant to I think accept Leonard's friendship because I imagine like so many other things, she thinks it will vanish, it will never last. But Leonard is very sweet on this girl and he, he sees all the potential and love and hope and joy in her and he is not going to give up. He is going to be her friend forever and ever. And you know, I think Azalea has a little bit hard time believing that that could be true for her. But they do seem to have a bond that does not break and she ends up really supporting Leonard. I mean, what happens, you know, soon after he buries his leg is that people in town start looking at this kid and thinking, oh my goodness, you know, he is doing so well. He is, he it's like nothing ever happened. So now people start coming to him with their trinkets of guilt and woe and shame and ask Leonard to bury them in the same cemetery where he buried his leg with the same kind of ritualistic goodbye. And, and Leonard needs Azalea to help him with this. And, and they do. They join forces and work together trying to kind of just alleviate really everyone's.

B (23:33)

Suffering, which is such a sweet and hopeless sentiment because people keep making more messes with themselves. My, my favorite is the one, the one gentleman who keeps coming back with the same thing to Barry because he keeps making the same mistake and how infuriated, lettered, who is mature beyond the maturity of adults and sees things that adults do not see very clearly, that he's just getting kind of infuriated and he's trying to extend this grace to people and be non judgmental. But you know, at what point does that stop? Which leads back to that initial question I asked about grace and that this book beautifully explores. And thank you for answering what was going to be my penultimate question, which is what is the curious calling of Leonard? What is this calling that he has? And you know, there's a lot of tension in this book about this calling because this very insecure man, childish church leader, is getting, is getting upset because he feels like this boy is taking his job. And there's that and there's, you know, people who are just in general thinking this boy shouldn't be doing this job. And he's also hiding what he's doing from his parents, particularly his mother, which is, which is really interesting. And I want to know because I, you know, I've only written one novel in my life and everybody I find, every novelist I talk to is a very different answer for how things come to them. Some people plot things meticulously. Sometimes things just reveal themselves more frequently to not than other novelists. Was the calling something that you knew was going to be there in the beginning or was it something that just slowly revealed itself to you?

A (25:14)

I knew almost from the very beginning that that was going to be, you know, the heart of the novel. That or what, what all the, I should say all the stories kind of hinge on is this unusual calling that this 12 year old boy. My, my agent called Leonard the Ted Lasso of Appalachia. And I, I love that because he is kind of, he's this positive, joyful, you know, always thinks things are going to work out well, even though, you know, probably masking a lot of his, his own pain. But this is how Leonard copes with it, is on that hilltop, and this is where he finds his joy. And when people start coming to him, you know, he does resist at first. It's his little friend, actually little Henry, who comes to him first and. And is so determined that Leonard do this for him that he bury his. His symbol of great guilt and woe in the cemetery next to Leonard's leg. And, you know, but Leonard finally, I think, just acquiesces and think, who am I to argue with you? If this is going to bring you some comfort and peace, little Henry, then so be it. And yes, he does not tell his mother and father. I think probably he would have had the courage to tell his dad, but there was no way he was going to tell June because, you know, she doesn't want to do anything that's going to bring unusual attention to herself. And she certainly didn't want the preacher to think that she was doing something wrong in the eyes of God. She comes around, but she definitely struggles with that at first. But, you know, reputation, you know, little Henry talks, Leonard's reputation begins to spread, and. And then it is just one by one, people of all ages, young and old, start to bring Leonard these little trinkets of their misgivings or their mistakes. And yes, some come back more than once, but that was the most fun, I have to say. I mean, I loved writing every sentence of this novel, but writing those scenes where someone new would come to the hilltop and need Leonard's help, those were the most fun.

B (27:27)

I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed meeting these characters for very brief amounts of time. And sometimes we know that what was troubling with them didn't stay buried. And it's also a very. The whole book is a very interesting exploration of agency as well, insofar as these buried troubles go and how much power do we have and how to wield our power responsibly or ethically? I mean, I. I did so much thinking after this book, which is exactly why I thought I need to talk to Susan sooner than later. Because right now my mind is still pretty much a steel trap about it, and I want it to stay that way. And my goodness, little Henry, I mean, he was just this other lovable outcast of the trio of the friends with Leonard and Azalea. And I mean, they were. They were so darling. And it felt like a familiar. A familiar group of friends that done in such an uncommon and new and fresh way. So my final question for you is about the setting. And I don't tend to really think too much about the settings in books. I'm not that kind of reader. If I, if I'm reading a book where there's, you know, five pages. Okay. Even if there's, you know, a big paragraph on what the setting is like, I'm usually like, okay, that's enough of that. Like, I'm skipping past that. But the setting in your book isn't so, so magical. And it feels like the, all the best books with great settings. I think a setting feels like a character in and of itself. And Big Sugar definitely feels like a character. There's so much happening in, around, in, around, around that river. And I just like as a, A fellow author who every now and then wants to ask other authors to lift the hood on their machine and show me how they did what they did. Tell me about how you created a setting that felt like it was all encompassing, but I didn't feel like I was sitting through the Hobbit and was like, oh, my God, Tolkien, stop. I get it. I get what stuff looks like. How did you, how did you do that?

A (29:33)

Oh, my gosh, that's a great question. Well, you know, you walk the land for one thing. If you're going to write about the land, I think you got to walk it. And I know that land well. I live in East Tennessee. I grew up in middle Tennessee. And when I was a little girl, my parents had this home out in rural. A rural area outside Nashville, and we spent so much time there. My grandfather also lived with us and he was a revival bread preacher. If you're a Southern girl, there's a good chance you've got somebody in your family who ran moonshine and, you know, ran into the law and then went to revival and became a preacher. And that was my grandfather. And so I grew up spending my summers with him and my grandmother. And so that rural, small town life, that was what I knew on weekends and summers. And then I was in Nashville the other time, so it's just so inbred in me. And I love the land. I love the way it smells. I love the way it looks at different times in the day, the way the light changes the experience. I love to see sounds, the cicadas. I mean, it just, to me, it is character. And I couldn't write a novel, especially for me, one set in the south, without the, the land being a rich.

B (30:55)

Part of the story. Yeah, it felt like it was ingrained into the book on a cell or into the. Not the physical, not the physical entity of the book, but it felt like it was ingrained into the story in a cell on a cellular level. And I think your familiarity with it, your deep familiarity with the land really, it really speaks to how the land and the scenes and the settings and the water and the trees and the crack of branches or twigs underneath your feet that you'd feel walking behind Leonard and his friends around this area did not feel like it was something that was being purposely put in the book. It just felt like a natural extension of one's body and one's experience. And it was really beautifully done. And I mean, I try my best when I'm reading a book not to dissect these things too much, to just enjoy the book. And I think I managed to do it a lot. But there is a point where I was, you know, in this breathless state of awe and I was like, okay, we're gonna read that back and see how that was done and ruin this entire experience for me by looking at it too closely. But it was, it was really, really beautiful. And it also speaks to. Again, something I focus on a lot in my life, living in rural Ontario with nary a large city in sight for at least an hour drive, is that these stories and our lives are happening wherever we are. They're not relegated to big metropolises and important, quote unquote, important, well known people. I mean, wonderful stories are happening everywhere, in every nook and cranny. And I so enjoyed stepping into this little nook of the world with you and with Leonard and with his family. And I'm really just so honored that you talked to me today about this book. Susan, thank you.

A (32:49)

I'm actually very honored to be invited.

B (32:52)

To speak with you.

A (32:53)

It's been a real pleasure.

B (32:55)

Thank you. And I do actually always say our last question, but then I always have one more, which is kind of a signature Holly thing, because I'm going to be following you very closely now. I'm wondering what you're working on next.

A (33:06)

Well, I'm actually halfway into a sequel of my first novel, which is something I would never have thought I would have done. But there Leonard took me a very long time to write, about 10 years. And there was a time in there where I felt so frustrated and people kept telling me, go back to your first novel. Spend some time with those characters that you know really well. Maybe, you know, spending time with them will give you some good perspective for Leonard. And so I did that, and I got far enough into it when I, you know, then I went back to Leonard. But I now think, okay, I owe it to them. I'm going to finish that. It's a, you know, I'm a very different writer now than I was when my first book came out and this probably a long answer to your question, but yes, I am actually writing a sequel to my first novel.

B (33:52)

Okay. So the first word of the day for me then is to read the first novel and then my by the time your second novel comes out, I'll be perfectly primed for it. Susan, thank you so much for joining me today on mdn.

A (34:04)

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