Suzy Levinson, "Dinos That Drive" (Tundra Books, 2025)

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network (Children's Literature Channel)

Host: Mel Rosenberg
Guest: Suzy Levinson
Episode: Suzy Levinson, "Dinos That Drive" (Tundra Books, 2025)
Date: October 4, 2025

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Overview of Episode's Theme

This lively and heartfelt episode celebrates the launch of Suzy Levinson’s new book, Dinos That Drive, a poetry picture book combining dinosaurs, vehicles, humor, and fun facts. Host Mel Rosenberg dives deep into Levinson’s creative process, her background in acting and writing, the technical craft of rhymer’s poetry, and her career journey from theatre to acclaimed children’s author. The conversation also touches on the challenges and triumphs of publishing funny, rhyming picture books and teases Levinson’s forthcoming projects.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction & New Book Overview ([02:24], [02:41])

• Dinos That Drive is a picture book poetry collection featuring dinosaurs and vehicles, illustrated by Dustin Harbin and published by Tundra Books (an imprint of Penguin Random House Canada).
• Levinson credits the illustrator’s unique style:

  "He just has such incredible..." ([03:20])

• Editor: Margot Blankier.
• Mel celebrates the book’s release and humorously requests Levinson to "show everybody the book" and share a reading ([02:28]).

2. How the Book Was Made ([04:15], [04:48], [05:12])

• Levinson shares the joy of collaborating with Dustin Harbin, highlighting the endpapers featuring dinosaur constellations.
• She describes being "blown away" by the illustrations.
• The book’s format includes playful poems for each dino-vehicle combo and banter from two small dinosaur characters providing fun facts.

3. Poetry Samples and Creative Choices ([05:12]–[06:28])

• Suzy reads from her poem "Thunder Lizard" (Brontosaurus on a motorcycle):

  "Boom. Boom. Broom. Broom. Do you hear that engine roar? Zip, zip. Zoom, zoom. Check it out. A dinosaur, Brontosaurus on the move. Heavy metal in the groove, helmet on his tiny head..." ([05:21])

• Facts are woven into the poems as dialogue between two recurring cartoon characters.

Notable Quote

• On why facts became dialogue:

  "As nonsensical as these poems feel, they're actually written with a certain kind of logic. That's how I chose which dino goes with what vehicle." ([06:53]–[07:53])

4. The Birth of the Characters' Banter ([08:00], [08:38])

• Initially, facts were in italics—editor Margot Blankier suggested voice-y banter.
• Inspiration: Statler and Waldorf from The Muppet Show.
• Levinson recalls the revelation and immediate urge to write:

  "It suddenly became so clear...My husband and I drove home a day early, and we literally put the suitcases down, and I went to the computer and I wrote the whole thing out." ([08:38])

5. The Craft and Challenge of Rhyme ([10:16]–[12:34])

• The technical demands of rhyme and meter are explored.

• Mel calls the poetry "hilarious...the rhyme is fine and the meter is sweeter" ([10:47]).

• Levinson emphasizes the difficulty and commitment required for quality rhyming poetry:

  "It is so aggravating when you can't find the perfect word because you have to make it sound natural, conversational...you can't throw in a bunch of inversions or forced beats..." ([11:45])

• Levinson enjoys working within structure:

  "It's like writing a word puzzle for myself and then having to solve it." ([11:17])

6. Influence and Inspirations ([13:11]–[13:39])

• Mel draws a parallel to Ogden Nash, which Levinson takes as a compliment but admits she wasn’t familiar with Nash until after starting her own poetry ([13:14]).
• Early favorites included James Marshall, the Frances books, Sendak, and Shel Silverstein ([27:23]).

7. Personal Journey: Theatre to Writing ([14:04]–[21:57])

• Levinson’s creative roots in Massachusetts: daydreaming, loving books, and acting in high school ([14:04]).
• Acting ambitions led her to New York, performing mainly in plays before transitioning out of the profession ([16:06]).
• She describes the struggle to find her creative outlet and the slow process of discovering children's writing ([19:47]):

  "If you had asked me then what kind of picture book you're going to write, I wouldn't have guessed...the voice I've developed as a writer feels like it directly connects to who I was when I was a kid." ([19:17])

8. Breaking into Children’s Books ([22:24]–[25:35])

• Early missteps: assumed writing picture books would be easy, tried to go it alone.
• The necessity of classes, critique groups, and community via SCBWI and 12x12:

  "It took some time to convince myself...this is actually a craft. I have to take a class." ([24:30])

• Learning structure and finding support transformed her approach.

9. The “Rhyming Bug” and Technical Growth ([27:18]–[30:58])

• Levinson found joy—and a niche—in writing rhyme, especially after taking Renée LaTulippe’s Lyrical Language Lab course:

  "Her class changed everything for me. Everything." ([29:48])

• On rhyme, meter, and form:

  "By the way, meter is not counting syllables. That's what I learned in Renee's class." ([28:51])

10. Building a Career: Submissions, Agents, and Books ([32:37]–[38:21])

• Strategy: publish rhymed poetry in children’s magazines (Highlights, Cricket, etc.) as credits toward selling books ([30:58]).
• Agent journey:
  • Found dream agent Rachel Orr through 12x12’s Gold level ([34:02]).
  • Experienced slow progress; first agent didn’t work out, then finally signed with Rachel Orr after a yearlong wait ([34:11]–[36:10]).

11. “Animals in Pants”: Previous Book ([38:42]–[42:43])

• Mel praises Animals in Pants for its multi-level humor and non-pandering style:

  "A lot of humor is adult humor...it works on multiple levels." ([39:16])

• Origin story: invented the “pantaloons” form because strict poetry forms felt confining ([40:02]).
• Sample poem "Cattitude":

  "This cat wears pants. They're custom made in tiger striped velour. You can't ignore a cat in pants. That's what he wears them for." ([41:12])

• Mel highlights the cleverness of the giraffe/kilt rhyme:

  "Pants, they don't fit. When your legs are like stilts, that's why giraffes wear kilts." ([41:59])

12. Looking Ahead: New and Upcoming Projects ([44:58]–[47:47])

• Levinson’s first two books have been poetry collections, but more story-arc-driven picture books are coming.
• She recently sold three new books:
  • A Year in Clown Town (Tundra): “One big long poem...about the months of the year. A little bit inspired by Chicken Soup with Rice.” ([45:47])
  • Salvador Snake Looking for Love (Balzer + Bray / HarperCollins): Based on a doodle from Levinson’s youth ([46:28]).
  • A not-yet-announced board book ([47:36]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the joy of pairing facts and fun:
  "As nonsensical as these poems feel, they're actually written with a certain kind of logic." – Suzy ([07:53])

• On embracing rhyme’s challenges:
  "You have to make it sound natural, conversational...nothing forced. Everything has to feel tonally consistent." – Suzy ([11:45])

• On writing background and creative autobiography:
  "When I write a character that's too close to myself, I'm just aware of the inauthenticity...but if I write in, in the voice of, like, a rock and roll dinosaur..." – Suzy ([20:13])

• On discovering the right creative path:
  "...all of a sudden it occurred to me and I had tears in my eyes. I was like, this is my calling. How did I not see this before?" – Suzy ([23:05])

• On the reality of publishing:
  "It is very hard to sell poetry collections." – Suzy ([44:58])

• On the support of community:
  "Suddenly I was in it in a way that I hadn't been before, when I was just all by my lonesome, crying out into the universe, why doesn’t anyone like my writing?" ([25:35])

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Reading & Performance Highlights

• [05:21] and [12:49]: Levinson reads "Thunder Lizard" and "Carnivore Part 1" (T. Rex poem).
• [09:29]: Banter sample between dinosaur characters.
• [41:12]: Levinson reads “Cattitude” poem from Animals in Pants.
• [41:59]: Giraffe/kilt poem.
• [48:19]: Levinson sings "Iguanagon, a sad country song" from Dinos That Drive.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:28 – Book introduction, showing & describing Dinos That Drive
• 05:12 – Reading “Thunder Lizard” poem
• 06:53 – Explaining the logic behind poem/vehicle-dino choices
• 08:00 – Backstory on character banter addition
• 10:16 – The challenge and joy of rhyming poetry
• 13:11 – Influence (Ogden Nash)
• 14:04 – Growing up and the roots of creativity
• 19:17 – Connecting childhood personality to written voice
• 22:24 – Moving from acting to writing, and learning the craft
• 27:18 – The “rhyming bug” and the impact of Renée LaTulippe’s class
• 34:02 – Agent journey and the long wait
• 38:42 – Animals in Pants origins and book reading
• 44:58 – Forthcoming projects and what’s next
• 48:19 – Singing “Iguanagon, a sad country song” from Dinos That Drive

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Tone and Atmosphere

The conversation is enthusiastic, witty, supportive, and reflective. Mel acts as both cheerleader and inquisitor, drawing out the humor and deep thoughts in Levinson’s process. Levinson is candid and self-deprecating, full of insight into both the challenges and the joys of writing funny, rhyming picture books.

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Conclusion

This episode is a must for anyone curious about children’s publishing, poetry, or the winding roads of creative careers. With candid discussion of adversity, perseverance, and technical mastery, it’s both a celebration of a funny, imaginative new book and a source of honest inspiration for aspiring writers.

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Final Note: Dinos That Drive launches October 5, 2025 from Tundra/Penguin Random House Canada. Levinson has more books on the way and a distinctive voice in contemporary children’s poetry—full of wit, technical skill, and warmth.

Transcript

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[D]

They see us.

[B]

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[C]

Welcome to the New Books Network. So, Susie Levinson, the one and only Susie.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

It's so wonderful to interview you. I mean, I've been dying to interview you for years. I have.

[D]

Really?

[C]

Yes.

[D]

So nice.

[C]

And not only that, this is on the E. First of all, it's our Rosh Hashanah. So may you have a very good year. And please forgive me for all the transgressions that I've caused you. But I've never met you, so they're probably minor.

[D]

You have caused zero transgressions.

[C]

But I'm going to apologize again at the end of the interview. Probably. Anyway, I'm Mel Rosenberg. I'm the host of the Children's literature channel of the New Books Network. And I am here with an incredible author, Susie Levinson, who has a new book coming out tomorrow.

[D]

Yes, tomorrow. Oh, yeek, Yeek. Yeah.

[C]

Mazel tov. So show everybody the book, talk about it and then we can dive in.

[D]

Can you see it? Dinos that Drive.

[C]

Not only me, thousands of other watchers, thousands of people.

[D]

Can you see this? Do me a favor and buy it. No. It's called Dinos that Drive. It's picture book length poetry collection and it's out with Tundra Books starting tomorrow.

[C]

Which is an imprint of Penguin Random House.

[D]

Yes, yes. A wonderful imprint that makes beautiful books.

[C]

Yeah, they sure do. From Canada. And I've just Been in touch with them. They're incredible and very exciting. So a few words about the author, the editor, and then we're going to dive into who you are, Susie Levinson, and where your incredible talent comes from.

[D]

Oh, I should say it's illustrated by Dustin Harben, who is this incredible comic zine guy. I believe this is his first picture book. And the art is so good. I mean, it blew me away the second I got a chance to see his portfolio in the beginning. And I was sort of like, if this guy says, no, I might. I might die. Because he just has such incredible.

[C]

Because, you know, there were other. The reason that the dinosaurs disappeared is not because they went into outer space, as you claim at the end of your book.

[D]

Filled with lies. Yeah.

[C]

No, it's because. It's because they had an illustrator and the illustrator decided not to. Not to draw.

[D]

They just stopped illustrating at the end.

[C]

Of the book and they decided to perish.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So it was publisher perish, and they perished. So show us the insides of the book. Read us a little.

[D]

Oh, yeah. Oh, oh, I get to show you the end papers, which are so incredible. Yeah, yeah. I kind of. I just feel like I'm talking to a friend right now. The end papers are constellations in the shapes of dinosaurs. I love that. Dynamics that drive Tundra Books. My editor is Margo Blankier, and she's just wonderful. Working here has been a dream.

[C]

Okay, so, Susie, I'm going to come right out and say it. Okay. Once in a while. No, it's something good. Once in a while. I am in awe, in stupefication, awe of a remarkable author. And you are one of them. And to show everybody why I am stupefied or stupefied. Read, please, one of your poems.

[D]

Oh, let me see. What should I read? I think I'll read the brontosaurus.

[C]

My favorite are the T. Rex ones, but you can pick whichever you like.

[D]

I'll do brontosaurus because the T. Rex, as you know, is sort of a serial thing where it has an arc throughout the course of the book. So I'd be reading four poems in that case. But that's my dad's favorite bit, too. Yeah, like the T. Rex. It might be mine, too, but anyway, I'm gonna stick to the first poem I ever wrote for this collection, which is Thunder Lizard. Okay, look, he's on a motorcycle. Rotosaurus. Thunder Lizard. Boom. Boom. Broom. Broom. Do you hear that engine roar? Zip, zip. Zoom, zoom. Check it out. A dinosaur brontosaurus on the move. Heavy metal in the Groove helmet on his tiny head. Thunder lizard. Ornin bred. Boom, boom Broom. Vroom. Motorcycle herbivore. Zip, zip, zoom, zoom. Catch you later, dinosaur. And then these little guys give facts about. Brontosaurus's name. Means Thunder Wizard. Can you guess why? Sure. He's huge. When he walks around, it sounds like thunder. Boom, boom.

[C]

Okay, so I'm going to steal your idea for my next book because having these two little creatures give some nonfiction side to your Michigan poetry is extremely clever. So it's not side matter. It's like it's banter of these two creatures.

[D]

It didn't start out that way.

[C]

Yeah. Well, let me ask you the question.

[D]

Did it start out that way? No. End of interview. No, it started out when I originally sent it out. Sub the manuscript out. It was just the poetry and then little facts that I included at the bottom in italics that the editor could use or not use. But I want. The truth is, I thought they needed to be used because they are the weird internal logic that brings the dinosaur with the specific vehicle. I couldn't just have a poem called Thunder wizard without explaining that the brontosaurus name actually means Thunder Wizard. Because then if I didn't explain that, then it would seem kind of random and as nonsensical as these poems feel, they're actually written with a certain kind of logic. That's how I chose which dino goes with which what vehicle.

[C]

Who had this brilliant idea to take that important side matter and turn it into banter between these two creatures?

[D]

My editor, Margot Blakey. She said, these facts are great. Can you make them kind of voicey? Give it a little bit more punch? And I was like, oh, crap. I don't know what to do about that. So I sort of stewed and got in a very bad mood and spent a week or two just like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I don't know what I'm gonna do. And then I remember I was visiting my family, and it just hit me. It should be two little characters having banter, sort of like on the Muppet Show. What are their names? Statler and Waldorf or something like that.

[C]

One of them should be a bantersaurus.

[D]

I should write. Let's write that. That's our next book. You want to work together? Let's do that. Yeah. Yeah. So it just. It suddenly became so clear. I remember when the idea popped into my head, I was away. I was visiting my family. I didn't have a laptop with me. I didn't have a computer with me. So My husband and I ended up driving home. I kind of emailed myself on my phone, and my husband and I drove home a day early, and we literally put the suitcases down, and I went to the computer and I wrote the whole thing out. I didn't even run it by my critique partners. I was just like, I love writing dialogue, so I don't know why it took me so long to figure out that I should make a dialogue, because, I mean, it's always. Writing dialogue has always been a bit of a happy place for me.

[C]

So, Susie, read the banter between the characters on. On that. For that particular poet.

[D]

Oh, for that particular.

[C]

Well, I just did.

[D]

But you know what? I'll read you the very first. In the very first spread where it just introduces the idea of this world. The one widdle dinosaur says, not to toot my own horn. Ahem. But I've always considered myself to be a bit of a dino expert. I'm excited to share some fun and fascinating facts. And the other little guy goes, and I'm excited to wear these sweet driving goggles. So there's a little bit of straight men and, like, comic relief banter going on with those two guys throughout.

[C]

It's great. So when. When the idea came to you, it was fun and it feels like fun, but how much oy vey work is involved in the poetry? Because your poetry is hilarious and the. And the rhyme is fine and the meter is sweeter and. Sorry, we teach all of our. All of our up and coming writers not to write in rhyme because it's very hard to get it right. And.

[D]

I think the more correct lesson there. And I hear that all the time too, and it is true for most people, but I will say rhyming cells. The problem is you have to do it incredibly well.

[C]

It's far more technical as somebody who doesn't rhyme well, because I don't have the patience. How much patience does it require? I mean, this is. You know, it's exquisite. It's superb. How long does it take you to write one of these?

[D]

It doesn't take me that long, but I've been doing it for over 10 years now. And it's. It's like writing a word puzzle for myself and then having to solve it. But the. I think the thing that I've always loved about it, first of all, I love that most people hate writing and rhyme because that means there's more opportunity for me. I found a niche that, like, I actually, really, really enjoy doing.

[C]

We. We don't hate it. We're we're daunted. That's all.

[D]

It's. It's. It's weird. People either. I think people are kind of right to hate it a little bit. I hate it a little bit too. It is so aggravating when you can't find the perfect word because you have to make it sound natural, conversational. You can't throw in a bunch of inversions or forced beats. You have to. Nothing forced. Everything has to feel tonally consistent. It has to all flow. You have to establish the meter right from the get go so your reader can kind of relax into the meter without stumbling. There are a million reasons why it's difficult, but for me, I've always worked really far better within parameters. I just. Rather than having just.

[C]

You work in parameters and tetrameters.

[D]

Exactly.

[C]

And I like it because the structure changes from palm to palm. So it's. And read us one of the T. Rex ones, please.

[D]

Okay, I'll read you the first one. Whichever. There are four, I'll go with the first one because I know where it is. All right. Carnivore Part 1. T. Rex drives a taxicab up and down the street. His customers don't know it, but he's really there to eat.

[C]

Did you. Did you grow up on Ogden Nash?

[D]

I. You know, it's funny, when I started writing, sometimes people, including my dad, would say, this sounds like Ogden Nash. And I'd be like, cool. That's an incredible compliment. I'm gonna go Google Ogden Nash to see like. Because I really wasn't aware of him until I started writing poetry. But it's a. It's an incredible compliment. I've grown to appreciate his work after the fact.

[C]

He's one of the reasons why I don't write poetry. Just so good. No, but I'm in awe of your work now. Let's now segue to little baby Susie. Why do you do what you do and how did you become a writer? How did you break in? This is your second book. We're going to talk about your first one a little bit too. Tell us your incredible story.

[D]

Well, I grew up in Massachusetts. I. I was a kid in desperate need of a creative outlet. I was very sort of dreamy and daydreamy and I loved reading. I love pretending. I love stuffed animals. I was very. In my head, I think were a million signs from the universe when I was a kid that I should be a writer. And I ignored all of them. There were very few opportunities to write, do creative writing in school. There was one awesome unit in my fourth grade class, one in my fifth grade class. Then, you know, it was a writing desert in middle school. And then in high school, there were only a couple of assignments that were creative writing assignments. Mostly it was just write a thesis, write a book, report, that kind of thing. And so. But on those few occasions when I had an opportunity to write creatively, nearly always a teacher would pull me aside to say, you know, this, this is pretty good. You, you might want to pursue this. And I'd be like, huh? And. And then I just wouldn't know how, how to pursue it. It just, I wasn't the kind of kid who was like, okay, I'm going to start journaling. I'm. I got a journal one time. And then I was like, oh, well, if I have a journal, I guess this is like a diary. And I did it for two seconds and I was like, I hate writing about myself. I do not want to write about my own life experiences. This is not fun. So I think I was in need of an assignment. So in high school, I just loved getting in the head of a character and just finding their voice. But there was no creative writing club. There was, there was a drama club. And so in high school, I just went all in with acting. I was like, I'm going to be an actor.

[C]

Why did you act in.

[D]

I was an actor until my early 30s. I actually, that's why I was originally came to New York. I, I did a lot of plays. I did one off Broadway play, mostly off off Broadway, but I got into the Actors Equity. I was in sag. I did a little here and there. It didn't make me live.

[C]

Am I going to find you an IMDb?

[D]

No, you're really not. You're really not. It may be the tiniest little thing, but it was mostly stage stuff.

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[C]

Did you do musicals?

[D]

No, I did not do me. I mean, in high school I did musicals, but I, I liked doing.

[C]

Because you know what's going to happen now?

[D]

What?

[C]

I'm going to get you in sync at the end of. At the end of these.

[D]

Couldn't you tell from that poem? It's a bad thing. My voice is a bad thing. No, I was mostly into doing plays. I was mostly into doing new plays. I actually was in a. Oh, I'm going to adulthood, not my childhood anyway. Going. You want to talk about childhood, right?

[C]

No, I'm going to take. Because what. You want to talk about your angst as a five year old. What the. I'm all open for that.

[D]

Well, I will, I will say there was a bit of angst when I was a kid, but like, that's not what comes out in my writing. But I didn't know that. I don't think I even figured out I wanted to write picture books until I was in my late 30s. And if you would ask me back then, like on the day that I was like, oh, I'm not an actor anymore, I want to focus on writing. And not only that, I want to write.

[C]

You've taken. Yeah, okay. This has gone all over the place. Continue.

[D]

I will say that if you had asked me then what kind of picture book you're going to write, I wouldn't have guessed that I was going to write this kind of picture book, but the kind of picture book I've actually, over the years, the voice I've developed as a writer feels like it directly connects to who I was when I was a kid. That's what I was coming around to. But Only during very in between moments. Not always as a kid. Like, just in the moments when I felt safe to let it all hang out and be loose and be silly.

[C]

Your books are hilariously silly, snarky, funny, comical. They do not disclose too much of the character of Susie. But this is because. I think it's because you're, you're hiding something that's going to appear in your next. Your next books.

[D]

That's why maybe that's what I like. I feel freer expressing myself through the voice of other characters I did as an actor and I do as a writer. I, I. When I write a character that's too close to myself, I'm just aware of the inauthenticity. You know, like, I'm just like, oh, that sounds fake. That sounds wrong. But if I write in, in the voice of, like, a rock and roll dinosaur.

[C]

Susie, Susie, you're young and it will come. Okay, so in high school you did drama, and in university you did.

[D]

I did theater, too. I was all in. I feel like looking back, that was probably a bit of a mistake, but at the. But I had wonderful experiences doing it.

[C]

There's no such thing as a mistake. This is all. It was all part of my fodder. It's fodder for feeder. Fodder for feeder. It's feeder for fodder.

[D]

It's just my personal. It's just my personality type. I loved disappearing into a character, but I didn't like any of the other aspects of being an actor. I like all the aspects of being a writer.

[C]

Yeah. And I'm predicting that eventually you'll come out of the. You'll share with us who Suzy really is. I'm just going to interject. You know, I was a scientist for 30 years, and today I was at a meeting, at a conference. I look back at it and I say, well, I was a scientist for 30 years, but, you know, helps you write and. Yeah, what's the point of saying I should have done this or I should have done that?

[D]

You're so right. Like, I don't regret being an actor. I just see now that I had two paths that I could have gone down. And one now I see was the better path for me, but I had to go down the first path in order to get.

[C]

I'm having. I'm having a Robert Frost moment now.

[D]

Yeah. For real.

[C]

So. So when did, when did it dawn upon you that. That the children's writing was for you?

[D]

When I was in my mid-30s, I was getting to the point where I was the end of my acting career. I was having a number of health issues too. And I just was like, I can't do this anymore. And I. I first tried to write a middle grade novel, but I made all the mistakes. You know, I. I said, oh, this shouldn't be so hard. It's a solitary activity. I should be able to do it on my own. I don't need to take a class. I could just do it on my own. Who needs a critique group or any sort of community? I mean, every mistake in the book, and those were for real mistakes. But eventually I sort of burnt out on that middle grade novel and. But I had, through some people I had met just from writing, that I had learned about scbwi. And one day it occurred to me, wait a second, wait a second. I have always loved children, children's books. I've always loved picture books. I love the interplay between art and words. I've always been a huge fan of them, not just as a kid, but just sort of. I see them as an incredibly hip art form. And I was like, wait a second. I already know that I don't have to be an illustrator to do this, so. And I already know that writing long form stuff is brutal for me. I don't have the attention span for it. I want to write short. And suddenly it was sort of like, I think I was walking down the street talking to my husband, and all of a sudden it occurred to me, and I had tears in my eyes. I had tears in my eyes. I was like, this is my calling. How did I not see this before? That's incredible.

[C]

How come we never met before? That's so beautiful. But here's the question. Here's the question. I had the calling, too, when I was in my 20s, but I thought I was good enough. And it took me 40 years to realize I wasn't.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So how did you realize that you needed the critique groups and the studying and cbwi? Where did this go?

[D]

I think the one thing that I think is common, that we all have, all of us come to picture books for in different ways. But the one thing that is pretty common amongst picture book writers, not illustrators, but writers, is we all come to it when we're smack dab in the middle of adulthood already. Right. And it's very easy for intelligent people to convince themselves that this shouldn't be too hard. I should be able to nail this and be successful yesterday, you know, and you know, yeah, I'm a very egotistical person. Not because I'M more egotistical than I. It's just because I'm a person. I have a huge ego. And it was very. It took a. It. It took some time to convince myself, oh, wait, I have to start at the beginning. This is actually a craft. I have to take a class. So it was probably about a year. For the first year that I was writing picture books, I was, like, whipping something up in half a weekend, spending the rest of the weekend looking up editors, sticking them in envelopes and sending them off.

[C]

You know you did that too, right?

[D]

I totally did that. So embarrassing. But then after a while, I. Because I had joined scbwi, when I was trying to write that middle grade novel, there was this thing called the blue boards on scbwi and someone suggested a class and I was like, all right, the definition of insanity is what I'm doing right now. If I don't change something and I don't want to take a class, I don't want to spend the money on it. This isn't going to teach me anything I don't already know, but actually, maybe I'll give a shot anyway. I always had a crap attitude about taking classes and always realized after the fact, oh, my gosh, this changed everything. So I think the first class I took was Susanna, Leonard Hill's Making Picture Book Magic, which was great in that, taught me something about structure. And it also introduced me to the community. Suddenly I was in Facebook groups. Suddenly I was able to get some feedback from people. I learned about 12 by 12, which is another great community. And suddenly I was in it in a way that I hadn't been before, when I was just all by my lonesome, crying out into the universe, why doesn't anyone like my writing? And it was only about a year after that I kind of got the rhyming bug. And I was trying to write a picture book that was rhyming.

[C]

Did this rhyming bug come from some book that you loved as a kid?

[D]

No, I don't think so. When I was a kid, I loved James Marshall. I loved the Francis books. I loved Sendak. None of those, I don't think are. I loved Goodnight Moon. No. No, not. Oh, I. I love Shel Silverstein when I was a kid, but it. I. It hadn't yet dawned on me that I wanted to write children's poetry and knock that.

[C]

Knock Dr. Seuss.

[D]

I love Dr. Seuss, but I wouldn't say he was my big favorite when I was a kid, except, okay, yeah.

[C]

For some cosmic reason, you.

[D]

For some Cosmic reason. I kept on hearing a rhythm in my head. I had. Actually, when I was playing around with middle grade novels, I was also playing around with country song lyrics. I don't know why. I just always felt a little bit of a rhythm in my head. And I was just like, I just got the rhyming bug. And I was writing a Christmas story, and it just felt like it demanded rhyme. And I shared it with people that I had met through this class. And someone said, I mean, no one responded well to it. I thought it was brilliant. And of course, everyone was like, nah. And someone was kind slash brave enough to say, you know, Rene Latulipe has this new lyrical language lab class. If you want to rhyme, you know, you might to take that class. So of course, once again, I'm thinking. I'm thinking to myself, I don't need a class. I know how to rhyme. Cat hat. There you go. That's a rhyme. I know how to count syllables. So meter shouldn't be that hard. By the way, that meter is not counting syllables. And that's what I learned in Renee's class. I had the worst attitude, and yet I also was able to sort of objectively go, but something's gotta give, so I'll take the class. Fine. Fine. So that was when I was around 40, and I just. I consider my writing life to be pre Renee Lataulipe and post. Like, her class changed everything for me. Everything. Her. I mean, the lyrical language lab taught me about rhyme, it taught me about poetry, it taught me about writing lyrically. But really it was the rhyme learning, the technical aspects of writing rhyme, and the way she explained it in such a concise way that really, it. It got through my brain in a way that studying Shakespeare in the past never did. Like, the ones that.

[C]

So, Susie, what. What year was that? First of all, Renee's been on the. On the interview, and she is incredible. She's incredible.

[D]

She's awesome. And if she hears me, we love you already. Yeah, we love you. Even though if she hears me talking about her with glowing praise, she's going to roll her eyes and say, stop being so dramatic, Susie. But it's all true. It's all true. So what was the question? Oh, this was when I was 40, so it was 11 years ago. I'm 51. So it was.

[C]

Why are you telling us how old you are? You look like you're about 28.

[D]

I'm trying to, like, lean in and accept the fact that I'm getting older. Like 350 was like, oh God. But I'm like, I'm 70. Hey world, I'm 51.

[C]

Susie. I'm 73, 74 and two months. And everybody, everybody knows how old we are. Let's move on.

[D]

And so it was when I was 40, so it was about 11 years ago, the hat that I took her class and I was suddenly like, I've found my thing. A lot of people don't like doing this thing. I love doing this thing. And also I recognized that I had been subbing at that point to agents getting, having very little luck, very few bites. Occasionally someone would say, oh, I'd like to see more work. And then they'd ghost me or whatever. And I had noticed that with a lot of people that get agents, sometimes the make or break thing was just having a few publishing credits like in a magazine. And I was like, I found my thing. And I can churn out a lot of rhyming poetry that I could send to highlights in Cricket. Like this is. I see the path now. I see what I'm going to do. I am going to go full throttle into writing short rhyming poetry, hitting these magazines with everything I've got, applying for, sending my stuff to anthologies as well and just making, stacking my resume a little bit and getting some good, great experience. And I thought if worse comes to worse and I never get an agent for picture books, if I could just get my poetry magazines where it will be beautifully illustrated and kids will get to read it, that in itself will be incredible. But it was also sort of a way to take a small step towards getting an agent and doing books as well.

[A]

Con las grandes of prime big deal days.

[C]

Abre paso al baron del brioche al visconte del viscocho y alconde de los cuernitos Mi embro de prime. Juan sie Hola.

[A]

Approved in prime big deal days. Siet yocho de octubre.

[C]

Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change your receipt did the sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just.

[D]

$5 only at McDonald's for a limited time.

[B]

Prices and participation may vary.

[C]

The holidays have arrived at the Home Depot and we're here to help bring the excitement with decor for every part of your home. Check out our wide assortment of easy to assemble pre lit trees so you can spend less time setting up and more time celebrating. And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor. And like one of our Santa inflatables. Whatever your style, find the right pieces at the right prices this holiday season at the Home Depot. And you. And you published the poetry and you won awards. And how did you find your awesome agent?

[D]

Oh, I found her through 12 by 12, which is a group where.

[C]

So kudos to Julie Hedlund.

[D]

Exactly. Even though I will say that I had another agent in 2017.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

But this agent was a book by book agent rather than a career agent. So that in a way felt a little like a slow moving car crash where I knew that eventually if she didn't sell my books, I was going to be back to square one.

[C]

Yeah, you were going to be like one of the dinos in your.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just a tad. So. So I was with that first agent for a year. She sent out two of my books. They didn't sell. I was back to square one, just like I predicted. I groaned and felt bad for myself for a few months. And then I realized that I. I had already given up my Gold status in 12 by 12, which means you can. You can sub to agents. And I realized I had missed the window to rejoin and one of my dream agents was going to be a sub opportunity in the next year. So I wrote to Julie or maybe Kelly and said, could I be in gold? And they were like, no, you missed the window. Too bad. Sorry, but we will put you on the waiting list. And then at the last second, someone gave up their membership. They. They just bailed out. And everyone else on the waiting list before me wasn't interested. And so I got to be a gold member and sub to Rachel Orr, who was my absolute. I had heard incredible things about her and she was. Yeah, she was always close to subs. Yeah, Rachel's amazing, but. So I. I subbed to her through the 12 by 12 opportunity. But I. Then I didn't hear from her for a full year. A full year?

[C]

Like, not Susie. That, that's nothing. I. I once heard from an agent.

[D]

After 27 months what it's like by then. Why are they even contacting you? Like it's. I mean, it's not that it's a bad thing to hear from an agent.

[C]

She didn't end up representing me, but she's one of the most important my journey.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Why she answered. Why she answered me after 27 months, I do not know. I will ask her next time I knew her.

[D]

I mean, in a way that makes sense. If you sub through the slushy.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Everything can happen.

[D]

I mean, but with 1212, I was supposed to forego the slush. Pile. And it's still Rachel's busy. Of course I could. I couldn't believe it when a year later, yeah, in the midst of COVID lockdown, I'm hearing from my dream agent saying, hey, can you send me more work? And then I had to send her work. Was it twice or three times? I had to send her more work. I had to send her everything I'd written, basically. I think Animals and pants was like the eighth thing I sent her. And that was the clincher.

[C]

That's so wonderful. And all through this, we're going to talk about animals and pants. That's a great segue. What were you doing? Were you working? Were you just sitting at home and waiting for answers? It also took me about 10 years to find an agent. What were you doing all this time? How did you manage?

[D]

I had a cage. I had a day job that fortunately I was able to do at home transcribing interviews for TV companies. Okay. Like 60 Minutes, Date Line, that kind of thing. So I had a day job that I had had as an actor that I took with me as a writer. And I was doing the whole time. So I was working, working, working, writing, writing, writing, Subbing, subbing, subbing. And yeah, a lot of sitting around thinking, woe is me. This is my dream.

[C]

Moping, moping, moping.

[D]

Oh, for real.

[C]

Moping, moping, moping. Hoping, hoping, hoping. Coping, coping, coping. Doping. No, not doping.

[D]

And not doping.

[C]

I need Renee's course right away.

[D]

You're a poet and you don't even know it.

[C]

Okay. And Rachel sold this incredible book, which I also love. Take it out and show everybody Animals and pants.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

You're not the only person to write about animals and pants. I've interviewed several authors of animals.

[D]

You have?

[C]

Including Julie. But this book is incredible. It is so witty. And let me tell you another wonderful thing about you. I could keep going. You don't pander to anything. People say, oh, you should write to the 5 year olds, et cetera, et cetera. Yes, of course you do. But you should also write to the adults. And a lot of humor is adult humor. And I have to go to the bathroom before I read your stuff because it is very funny. I mean, it works on multiple levels.

[D]

Thank you.

[C]

You did everything wrong. You wrote poetry and you wrote humor at various levels. And you still sold this incredible book. And I'm so happy for you and for Rachel. No, take out the book and read us some of the pants ones. It's hilarious. The letter holds them and it's just.

[D]

You know, it's funny. Is. Is the original title was. I was really angry because Renee and a few other poets that I knew had written pantoms at that time that I wrote this. It's a very strict form of poetry. And I do not enjoy writing strict forms of poetry. I find them a little too confining. And so I tried to write a pantom and. And it wasn't going anywhere. And I was like, forget this. I'm just going to make up my own poem. And then I wrote this poem in a class. This was the start of it. Not this One is Cat 1 called Cattitude. And I thought, I'm going to write a bunch of poems and I'm going to make up my own form. I'm going to call them pantaloons instead of pantoms. And the only requirement is animals wear pants. And that's how I wound up writing this collection.

[C]

And not only pants, there's other word dope work elements. Yes, there's one if I remember. Yeah, read Cattitude. And read the last one.

[D]

Cattitude. This cat wears pants. They're custom made in tiger striped velour. You can't ignore a cat in pants. That's what he wears them for. And you got the last one.

[C]

Do you realize how brilliant that is?

[D]

No. Thanks.

[C]

Okay, yeah, with the last one.

[D]

Animals in lion. That one.

[C]

That one. No, no, before that one. The one before that. That's. That's the one with the.

[D]

I had a feeling when you said not pants, that's spottish.

[C]

Yes, this is the one. So this one with the giraffe is so. I wanted to use the F word. It's so g. And then I say to myself, okay, why isn't this.

[D]

Why is this at the end of the book?

[C]

It's my favorite poem. Read it, please.

[D]

Pants, they don't fit. When your legs are like stilts. That's why giraffes wear kilts.

[C]

It's you odd. The Nashified out. The Nash. It's so brilliant. I love it. A few words about the. The publisher and the. And the.

[D]

Oh, yes. It is published by Abrams and the illustrators are Kristen and Kevin how to Shell. And I am crazy about their work. It's sort of like a mashup of collage. And I think they collage digitally. It's so cool looking like. I feel like every illustration in this book should be on a museum wall or something like that. It's just so cool.

[C]

It's a brilliant book. Okay, so Dinos The Dries is out tomorrow. It's a brand book. If I haven't made this clear, you should run out and buy this book. If not for kids, then for yourselves. It's hilarious. It'll brighten up any gloomy day, guaranteed. So now what I want to know, if you can, is what you're up to and when we are going. When are we going to have a picture book by you that gives us a glimpse into Susie and her being?

[D]

I mean, this stuff is partly me because, like, when I was a kid, I would just, if I felt like if I was on a boring car ride with my family and I felt very unjudged and free, but also bored staring out the window, I would just sort of freestyle this kind of thing. Like, I would, I would like, make up little, like, ad jingles, songs, stories. If I had a stuffed animal, they'd have a full backstory and like a very defined personality. I was just always just sort of coming up with stuff. But that wasn't just when I was really young. I mean, I was doing that in high school, like, with, with very close friends that I felt comfortable being my completely weird, dorky self with. And, um, so, so that is a part of me, for sure. For sure. Um, I, I do sometimes write more free verse, and I feel like that shares a different aspect of myself. Right now I'm working on a novel in verse. I hate to even talk about it because it's so outside my comfort zone that I'm not sure it's ever going to exist as a book. It is the weirdest thing I've ever written.

[C]

What age group?

[D]

Like middle grade? Yeah. Novel.

[C]

Back to middle grade.

[D]

I don't know what I'm thinking, but it was sort of like one of those things that was always hovering in the back of my mind. And so this is the year that I started it, and I just got to get to the finish line with it and see where I.

[C]

What about, what about more picture books? I mean, these books are incredible. They're gorgeous.

[D]

You know, it's funny. I, I, it's, it's kind of crazy that my first two books have been poetry collections, because it is very hard to sell poetry collections. And most of this stuff I write are more picture books with a story arc, a little bit more standard.

[C]

Where are they?

[D]

Well, this year I sold three books.

[C]

Yay. So this is what we want to know about.

[D]

Yeah, I've sold, I have another book coming out, and we're talking for 44.

[C]

Minutes, and now you're Talking lady.

[D]

How? We've been talking to 44 minutes. It feels like four minutes.

[C]

It's after my bedtime here in Israel, Leon.

[D]

So sorry. Goodbye, Good night.

[C]

The sun has set.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Talk tomorrow. So you have three book deals and you're not telling us?

[D]

Yeah, I have three book deals. Right. Wasn't telling you. No, it's. One of them is with Tundra. It just got announced so I could talk about it. It's not a poetry collection, but it's more like one big long poem because the entire thing is written in the same meter, same rhyme scheme throughout. It kind of has a story arc to it, but it's about the months of the year. And it's so it's broken up into months, a little bit inspired by chicken soup and rice, but it's called A Year in Clown Town. And it's like an all clown world.

[C]

Wow. Wow.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Beautiful.

[D]

And then I have another one that just got announced that's going to be coming out with Balzer, Bray McMillan that is called Salvador Snake Looking for Love. And it's based on this little snake I used to doodle in high school. Like Mel. Like for my whole writing life. My family won't stop pestering me. When are you gonna write about that snake? When are you gonna write about that snake? But the snake from high school had just like. It was more like a character sketch. It wasn't really a story. So I was like, no, I'm not gonna write about the snake. Like, I don't know what it. I don't know what the story would be like. There's nothing there. And then I finally came up with a story and kind of changed the details of the snake. So all these years later, that snake is actually going to be in a book. And I'm really excited about that. And then there's one board book that hasn't been announced yet, so I'm not allowed to tell you about it. I probably shouldn't have said board book. So everyone keep it under wraps.

[C]

Nobody's listening. Give us an idea. It's animal, vegetable, mineral.

[D]

Am I. I don't even give a bad influence. I'm not allowed to tell. Right.

[C]

It's my job. So I think that soon we're going to find out more about Susie. And I can't wait to interview again.

[D]

Oh, great. That would be nice.

[C]

So this is the time to read one last poem from Dino's the Drive.

[D]

All right.

[C]

And to start saying goodbye.

[D]

Let's see. Oh, God. This one is a whole fake country song.

[C]

Oh, I love that one.

[D]

Oh, you want me to sing that? It'll be singing again.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

All right, here's the picture. I've actually recently worked with a country artist to turn it into an actual song, which I'm really excited about, so. All right. Is that something in your background I'm hearing? Okay.

[C]

It's my son who doesn't know that I'm interviewing you.

[D]

Hi. All right, so it's called Iguanagon, a sad country song. And again, I'm sorry for my singing voice. Iguanagon, where have you gone? You took the pickup truck, you left me for a hydrosaur who looks just like a duck? You took the pickup truck, you took the pickup truck? You left me for a hydrosaur who looks just like a duck. Iguanadon, I mean, come on. You're tearing me apart? Not only did you grab my grub, you sped off with my heart you're tearing me apart you're tearing me apart? Not only did you grab a grab, you spit off with my heart. Sorry, Iguanadon, you're really gone. Oh, oh, the tears I've cried You took the truck, Iguanodon, and now I need a ride. Oh, the tears I've cried Oh, the tears I've cried. That was my truck. Iguanodon. Can someone please give me a ride?

[C]

I wondered what the tune to that was. This would be great for school visits and, of course, encouraging people to come up with their own and music to your lyrics. Suzy, it's been incredible. I don't want to say goodbye, but I've been here with the incredible rhyming author, but perhaps soon less so Susie Levinson. And we are celebrating the launch tomorrow of her brand new book. The launch is actually good because can I say that they go off in space at the end.

[D]

You already have said that, like, five times.

[C]

I know. Okay, so, Dinos the tribe.

[D]

It's not really a spoiler.

[C]

It's up to you, Tundra, which belongs to Penguin Books Canada, a wonderful book launching tomorrow, and can't wait to have you back on the show and run out and buy this book. You will love it. Your kids will love it, and it's gorgeous. And, Susie, have a wonderful year and we'll chase everybody away and come back just to close. So everybody take care. I'm Mel Rosenberg and I'm the host of the Children's Literature Channel, the new Books Network. And I've been here with the truly incredible Susie Levinson.

[D]

Hi.