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Taylor McCall, "The Art of Anatomy in Medieval Europe" (Reaktion Books, 2023)
00:36:55
An interview with Taylor McCall
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- [00:00]
Marshall Po
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- [00:59]
Taylor McCall
So good, so good, so good.
- [01:02]
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- [01:58]
Marshall Po
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [02:02]
Yana Byers
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to New Books in History, a channel on the New Books Network. I'm Yana Byers, your host, and I'm here Today with Taylor McCall, managing editor of the Journal of the Medieval Academy of America, to talk about her new book, the Art of Anatomy in Medieval Europe, out this year, 2023 with reaction books. Hey, Taylor, how are you?
- [02:22]
Taylor McCall
Hi. Thanks. How are you?
- [02:24]
Yana Byers
Great. Thanks so much for joining me.
- [02:26]
Taylor McCall
Thank you for having me.
- [02:28]
Yana Byers
Yeah, I'm really excited to talk. So tell me about what you do with speculum.
- [02:34]
Taylor McCall
So I am the managing editor of the journal. It's a really kind of broad interdisciplinary journal. So we publish long form articles on a huge variety of subjects, all relating to the medieval period. And then of course a lot of book reviews. So, yeah, so that's really. I oversee the whole production schedule and back and forth with our publisher, which is University of Chicago Press. And yeah, just making sure each issue comes together, which is four a year. So it's a lot, but it's great. It's really super interesting work.
- [03:14]
Yana Byers
It sounds like wonderful work and it's important work, but. Yeah, that sounds like hurting a lot of cats.
- [03:19]
Taylor McCall
Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right.
- [03:24]
Yana Byers
All right, so let's just jump in and our first task is to place this in your intellectual world. So can you tell me how you came to be interested in medieval anatomy and how you came to write the book?
- [03:36]
Taylor McCall
Yes. So I started to be interested in medieval anatomy as early as when I was an undergraduate. I was at the University of Virginia. Had a really wonderful mentor in the art history department who, his own work focuses on Carolingian scientific manuscripts. So earlier. But he kind of got me very interested in scientific manuscripts, which is not something I had thought about a lot. And I realized that there were a lot of images associated with specifically medical texts that just really haven't received a lot of attention from art historians or historians in general. So that was kind of the initial prod into the area. And he really encouraged me to go further with my research and go get a master's degree. So I went to London to the Courtauld Institute of Art and did my master's there. And that was when I first started specifically focusing on anatomical images. And I realized when I was doing that thesis that there was more work to be done and so lucky enough to go to Cambridge and do my PhD there. Yeah, and you know, it's just continues to be a really fruitful field. And so the book that I wanted to write initially was something that would be really accessible to a lot of different people. You know, I could certainly have written something more in line with my dissertation, which was very, of course, academic and, you know, full of lots of footnotes. But reaction gave me the opportunity to write something that, you know, would appeal to a lot of different people and to undergraduates as well as hopefully graduates and beyond, and then of course, just educated general audiences. So that was kind of, you know, the route I decided to take. And I'm super Happy with the outcome?
- [05:40]
Yana Byers
Yeah, you should be. You know, that's one of the things reaction does really well. Mission accomplished in this case. It's a really readable book, but it's very smart and listeners. This is a book you want to look at. The illustrations are fantastic and I mean that in every way. Some of them are indeed fantastic and then some are so precise and interesting. It's just very, it's beautiful, it's absolutely beautiful text. So you want to look at this and there is a link for you in our website so you can, you can go through and check it out. But yeah, mission accomplished there. It is a really, really lovely book and I love it though. And I'm glad you, you know, you talked about how you just started seeing these images and really moved to them. But I think there's a question there of what actually constitutes a medieval anatomical diagram.
- [06:34]
Taylor McCall
What is that? Yeah, yeah. And that's something that I, you know, I talk to talk about a little bit in the introduction to the book. You know, the kind of the concept of anatomy I think is so broad. It could encompass any images of the body, including those that were made in a non medical, you know, setting, something like that. You know, a lot of the art history work on anatomy focuses on Renaissance bodies where there's much more kind of detailed understanding of the, you know, the actual internal parts of the human body. And in the medieval period, what's interesting is that the. There are images that were created before they were dissecting human bodies. So the earliest images in my book are pre scientific, scientific, quote unquote, human dissection. And then what is really interesting to trace for me was kind of the. Then we see in the late medieval period, around 1300, the beginnings of scientific human dissection and kind of how those explorations affected the creation of imagery. And so the way I narrowed my focus was by focusing on specifically images that are attached to medical or anatomical texts, because I think otherwise you could get a little too broad. And I'm certainly interested in all different types of views of the body. But the images for me that are anatomical in this book are those that are being created around these circles of learning where people are really trying to delve into the understanding of how the body works and how it's put together.
- [08:36]
Yana Byers
Yeah, I mean, so there is just a sort of book from which this comes, right?
- [08:41]
Taylor McCall
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. They are almost totally all manuscript images. I did a few comparisons with some paintings or sculpture, but they are, yeah, they're images that were created by and now, this is, you know, of course, a sign of the medieval period, but they were all men. Most of them, you know, initially were monks, and then they were men who were studying to be professional physicians or studying to be professors of anatomy or whatever it was, who were, you know, interested in. In the texts as well as the images. And why the images were interesting and why. Why we don't have more of them, frankly, because there are. There. There are very, very few of these images.
- [09:28]
Yana Byers
Yeah. And they come from actually a relatively kind of condensed period of time.
- [09:31]
Taylor McCall
Right.
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Yana Byers
When do we start seeing them?
- [09:33]
Taylor McCall
Right around. Yes. So the. The earliest images were produced. They're actually in a manuscript that's dated, which is really nice because that doesn't happen all the time, but. 1165. Yeah, 1165 in Bavaria, a little monastery in Bavaria is where we see the first anatomical images. And. And then they, you know, kind of follow a pattern in Western Europe. We see them mostly in Italy, but also in England, you know, a few in France and then more in Germany. But that's really. That's kind of the area that they're restricted to, so not a huge area at all. And they go up until, you know, you can see the same patterns of images up until, you know, the early 16th century.
- [10:26]
Yana Byers
All right. So very much a high and late medieval kind of phenomenon. Where does this. Where does this knowledge first come to? Like, how does it get. How do. How did. How do these monks in Bavaria learn about this?
- [10:38]
Taylor McCall
Yeah, that's a great question and something that a lot of people have. Have tried to think about. So the. The most common. The most. The most likely kind of. If we look at both the images as just sort of types of images as well as other patterns of knowledge movements in that period, it's most likely there. They were reproductions of images that were probably created sometime in late antiquity. So probably sometime in the late Roman period. We have. Most medieval medical images that we see in the earlier period that make it to the monasteries are copies of earlier imagery. So you don't really see the creation of new types of medical images until approximately the 12th, 12th century, 13th century. So it's likely that they are copies of images that were copied and recopied. But of course, the earliest ones that we still have are from the 1160s. So, you know, the theory can't be completely proven, but it seems the most likely.
- [12:05]
Yana Byers
And where those images first.
- [12:08]
Taylor McCall
No, I was gonna say especially. Especially because we do have similar images that crop up in the Middle east as well. They're later, but. But It's a very similar type of diagram and that points to a common, you know, late antique either. Probably, Probably a Greek, you know, ancestor. So.
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Yana Byers
Yeah, probably. Probably a Greek ancestor was kind of getting to. Yeah, of course not. Not a huge shock there.
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Taylor McCall
Right.
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Yana Byers
So you've split the book into three parts. Anatomy and Cosmos, Anatomy and Surgery and Anatomy and artists. Very interesting kind of way to divide. So can you tell us how you made this choice and why you organized the book thus?
- [12:57]
Taylor McCall
Yeah, it's, you know, the original kind of concept was to focus really specifically on the makers, the different people who made these images, especially because the reaction series that the book is part of is the Medieval Lives series. So a lot of the books in the series are on specific medieval people and the work that they did or their impact or, you know, authors, that kind of thing. So I wanted it to fit in with that, but I found that that was a little bit too restrictive, so I decided to. To make it a little bit broader and, and just focus on kind of the. What I would say is generally, you know, generally chronological. So it starts out the cosmos. What I mean by that is kind of the, the interaction of anatomy with. With the heavens, and that includes spiritually. So the first chapter is. Is Anatomy in the Monastery, which is, of course, the first time that we see anatomical images. And exactly what you're saying, you know, why were these images important to monks in Bavaria in the 1160s? So that is something that I of course, find very interesting as well and, and get into. And another big aspect of medical practice in the Middle Ages was the connection to the zodiac and the heavens. So the body, each part of the body was connected to a specific zodiac sign. And a significant portion of everyday medical care was bloodletting. So drawing blood from specific points on the body to. Mostly to, you know, if someone had a fever, if they had some kind of illness, their physician would compute based on their, their, Their own zodiac sign and, and different circumstances around their birth. The best places to bloodlet from, you know, from. From their bodies and very importantly, when not to, because that they believe that, you know, if you bled a certain part at a certain time of the month, then you could bleed out and die. So, so that was a big part of, you know, of understanding medicine. And the, the images that accompany those writings are really interesting. They kind of directly link organs in the body to different planets or, or zodiac signs. So those are fun images to look at. Yeah. And then the second part is the surgeons. So they, the educated surgeons are the ones who really kind of initiated and pushed for anatomy to be part of medical curricula. This is mostly in Italy in the late 13th, early 14th centuries. And this is the first time that we also see them dissecting human corpses as part of their, you know, teachings and learnings on anatomy. It was a very rare practice. It was not something that occurred very often. It did not spread to the rest of Europe until well into the 15th century. Did not become part of medical curricula, especially in northern Europe, until the late 15th century. But it began in Bologna, you know, around 1300. And so that's, that's the role that the surgeons played. They were kind of the earliest, you know, professors of anatomy, basically, and some of them created images to accompany their works, which were the first. The first time that we see new anatomical images, you know, original anatomical images created ever. You know, this is, you know, the first time that anyone that we know of has actually set out to draw the inside of the human body for a particular purpose. Because the, the earlier images are, you know, older copies, copies of older images that, that we, you know, we don't know anything about the original artists. So, so that's kind of the. The first time that we see that happening. So that, that was a logical, you know, second section for the book. And then the third part is where we start talking about the impact of artists on the depiction of anatomy and on the study of anatomy and specifically how artists became involved in both creating new images as well as helping to kind of finesse what was already there. So thus, these were the. The kind of precursors specifically to what we considered to be, you know, the famous. The most famous artist anatomists. And I do get in a little bit get into Da Vinci and to, you know, of course, Vesalius is kind of the. The most famous artist anatomist of the period. So that's kind of all included in. In that section.
- [18:30]
Yana Byers
So, see, and it feels, really feels like it covers the whole period and it. And it gives us this frame to look at and like, what the purpose of these, which is a question I want to get to eventually. But I mean, first, like, just to step back a second, what are these monks doing with the anatomical diagrams?
- [18:51]
Taylor McCall
What. So, you know, the. I think that the, the kind of feeling that we have today as contemporary viewers, that there is a clear divide between science and religion, you know, at least for most people. There are scientific facts and then there are religious beliefs, but that. That was not any kind of concept that existed in this period. So for, you know, according to. To What I have understood, what I, you know, have read, and in my own research, what I think is the most likely reason why these monks included anatomical images in, you know, the first time they come up, it's in a book of otherwise, you know, mostly religious materials, was that there was no sort of thought that, you know, oh, these images are, you know, science, which is just very distinctive from our belief system. Everything was created by God. There was a reason why everything, you know, why our bodies operated the way they did. And there was a way to connect every single aspect of our physical selves with our spiritual selves. So by showing the way the bones fit together or the way the veins ran through the body. These diagrams were meant to be, kind of, were meant to help a monk understand his physical self in relation to God's grand plan. And, and his connection, your connection as, as your own body, your own self to the movement of the cosmos and the movement of, of the planets and the stars and, and, you know, your place within the universe, essentially.
- [20:42]
Yana Byers
Right? Yeah. Okay. So then it's, it's didactic. It's about the whole world. It's a reminder of the beauty of creation and how you fit in that.
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Taylor McCall
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
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Yana Byers
But then when we get to dissection, these are also, I mean, they're manuals that are teaching you how to do it as well. Right?
- [21:01]
Taylor McCall
How do you do dissection? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting because the, the earliest anatomical manuals that were created by, you know, men that we know were dissecting corpses. Yeah, we're, we're set up as kind of a step by step. This is the first thing you should do is the second thing you should do. This is what you will see when you, you know, when you cut into the abdomen and that kind of thing. So it's, yeah, that, that was definitely more for, for training purposes. You know, they, they considered surgeons that were performing these dissections, were doing so because they felt that it would help their students to see, you know, for their own medical treatments, you know, what. What's going on underneath the surface. And they believed that that was a really important part of becoming a surgeon or a physician was to know, you know, what, what was underneath the skin. So, you know, the actual text says, so that, you know, the physician might not accidentally err, might not accidentally mess up and so, you know, be able to, to know what organs were where and, you know, where you should cut, where you shouldn't cut, that kind of thing. If you had to do some sort of Procedure.
- [22:30]
Yana Byers
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Taylor McCall
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- [23:32]
Yana Byers
So teaching teachers, teaching surgeons, and then providing something, a really important manual in a time when dissected bodies were ra.
- [23:43]
Taylor McCall
Exactly, yeah. So the most famous of these surgeons was someone called Mondino de Luzzi. And he did not include images with his anatomical text, but his contemporary, Henri de Monville, he did include images and just described his decision to include images as helping his readers because, you know, basically because he knew that dissection was so rare and he wanted his students to be able to see what he had seen, basically. Now the images are, they're really not very detailed, so it's not, you know, it's not meant to directly reveal exactly what you would have seen, but more, you know, give, give, give a reader, you know, an idea of what was going on in, you know, within the body when they couldn't access dissection themselves.
- [24:48]
Yana Byers
So, yeah, all right, this, still, this made sense to me. You know, when I'm coming out this book, I'm like, I'm looking at the, the table of contents before I start. I'm like, cool, that makes sense down to me. And then I'm like, huh. And the third section, it was kind of gave me pause, right? And then when the section about courtly anatomy, I, I was utterly baffled and I had no idea what I would get. It was a wonderful surprise, right, because they look like just like every other annotated manuscript I would ever see, except where I'm used to seeing like Jesus and the saints or like lords and ladies dancing or even, I don't know, pigs doing silly things. There's like wombs and frontal bodies. So interesting what's going on there. What is this?
- [25:35]
Taylor McCall
Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, definitely some illuminators, some artists, Some designers, you know, book designers getting creative, which. Which is always really fun to see. So many images, you know, in medieval manuscripts are, you know, they followed a particular formula. There were, you know, if it was a Bible, you were probably going to see a scene that you recognized if you were lucky enough to be able to afford, you know, an illuminated book, which is an illustrated book. But, you know, these. The. The time period in which these books were created, which was 13th, 14th, 15th centuries were kind of during. Coincided with the rise of the middle class and the rise of universities in cities like Paris. And there was a huge book trade and a, you know, huge market, growing market for luxury manuscripts that could, you know, that were illuminated to a certain degree. And it's great to see they're rare, but it's very great to see, you know, that there were physicians or people who were just interested, you know, in learning more about medicine, who commissioned these manuscripts, medical manuscripts, and that the artists were able to kind of, you know, instead of some kind of fun scene of a monkey jousting with a priest in the margins, which, you know, you might see in a different type of book. You see the kidneys, you know, or a group of, you know, a group of students surrounding, you know, a bunch of, you know, dissected bodies. Yeah, so it's a. It's a really interesting part of. Of the story of medieval anatomy. So.
- [27:25]
Yana Byers
Yeah, and I mean, that seems so much more serious and scholarly and reasonable. Like, I'm much more interested. Why wouldn't I see a womb here instead of a pig, you know, and I'm jousting or what have you. But that I was completely unexpected and really neat. The other thing.
- [27:49]
Taylor McCall
I just said. Yeah, they're beautiful.
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Yana Byers
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they are. They really are. I mean, that's. Yeah. Some of these are not. Some of them are really kind of workman like. But these and these manuscripts are gorgeous.
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Taylor McCall
Yes. Yeah. Lots of gold, lots of really deep, beautiful colors. Yeah, they're remarkable.
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Yana Byers
Yeah. And I mean, it's a little bit later and a little bit richer than a gorgeous. So the other thing that I was really taken by is some of these illustrations feel like diagrams. I mean, they really clearly outline organs or bones or whatever it is. And then some of them are very abstract and are clearly what. They're just illustrating ideas as much as anything. So is that about purpose? Is that this difference here?
- [28:44]
Taylor McCall
Yeah, yeah, it's a. It's kind of, you know, the abstracted images are on the earlier side. Those are the images that we see, you know, from approximately 1200 in this very specific tradition. And, you know, for instance, they. This, you'll see an image of the female reproductive system. And you. If you didn't know that's what it was, you would have no idea what you were looking at. It's extremely geometric, very abstracted. Just a lot of shapes kind of put together, symmetrical and really harmonious and beautiful, but also just hard to tell what you're looking at. And. Yeah, so those images are part of kind of an earlier medieval tradition of diagrams and reducing really complicated ideas into geometric, you know, relatively easy to understand shapes. So what's interesting about something like the womb diagram is that it shows you not only kind of the structure of the womb, but also different types, different spots along the way of reproduction. So, you know, there are little captions inside the drawings, and they say, you know, the semen enters here and then, you know, it fertilize, you know, and then it enters here. And this is where the fetus is formed. And so it's a lot of different kind of ideas within a single static image. And it's interesting to see the ways in which the artists came up with ways to distill this information into particular graphics. But, yeah, as the Middle Ages wears on and you get more into a desire for narrative images or images that tell a story, images that are more straightforward, not as arcane, then that's when we see, you know, the actual. You see a woman, a full body, and then, you know, a picture of her womb as it would appear, you know, quote unquote, as it would appear if you were dissecting her. So, yeah, so. So, you know, diagrams that are taken outside of the context of the body that are abstracted, versus this desire for a little bit more naturalism. So it's a very interesting evolution.
- [31:23]
Yana Byers
This still leads me to wonder, you know, you write, they're not intended to communicate a unified imperial knowledge of the makeup or processes of the interior, which gave me pause when I first read it. I'm like, well, then what are they for? And I think now what. I think now at the end of the book, I do understand, but I think we should still probably make it clear. Like, I would still like you to explain it to me, make sure I got it right. You know, what are they for? What are they meant to do?
- [31:49]
Taylor McCall
So, you know, it. It really depends on the author. It depends on who was making the images. It depends on, you know, what the images were meant. You know, the place that they were meant to occupy within a particular text. The. You Know, the text that they were illustrating. So it's more of something where you're, you're supposed to, you know, have, have your own knowledge, looking at these images and be able to take yourself through, you know, a diagram and kind of take from it what, what you need to take from it. I guess it's not, it's. When I say a unified empirical knowledge, I mean, you know, there were so many different competing ideas about, for instance, the role of the woman in reproduction. And you know, a big kind of debate that went on in the later middle ages was, you know, the role of the men, the man's seed versus, you know, what, what role did the woman play? You know, was she just a passive vessel or, you know, did she actually have some active part in creating a fetus? So, you know, these debates were hashed out in classrooms and a lot of what I do, you know, as an art historian, as someone who looks at images like this, is try to figure out what these images were meant to, you know, how they were supposed to interact with the kind of ideas that were going on in the classroom and, you know, what was important for people to portray at certain times because it always changed.
- [33:27]
Yana Byers
Right. So sometimes it's just the basics of Galenic medicine and sometimes it's one. What you need to know about your astrological sign and what organ it's.
- [33:36]
Taylor McCall
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there were, you know, anatomists, you know, later on especially, who took issue with things that the, you know, kind of ancient authorities wrote. You know, they said, you know, Galen was wrong about this and he was wrong about this. And this is why I know this, because I have looked inside a female body and seen it for myself. And. Yeah, so, you know, in the period, the only way to spread knowledge was through reading and copying these texts or attending a lecture or whatever it was. But, you know, people didn't get around as much as they do today. So things were very slow and very localized. So it was easy for a text to be copied. You know, the early diagrams that we have, they continue to be copied because I think they were very accessible and easy to see. You know, the five body, full bodied versions of anatomy. And then, you know, the more arcane, abstracted diagrams were more difficult to, you know, for people to understand. So we only have, you know, four copies of those in 300 years.
- [34:49]
Yana Byers
300 years. And all over the world as well. Or all over Europe at least.
- [34:53]
Taylor McCall
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [34:54]
Yana Byers
All right, yeah, that was a really big question and I've taken up quite enough of your time. Already. So I just have one more super easy. What's next for you?
- [35:03]
Taylor McCall
Oh, well, I am, you know, working on a lot of different things right now. I'm working on an article that I've been trying to write for, you know, years and years that I'm determined to finish, which is about the. The female dissection scenes that you see in a couple of the manuscripts that I talk about. So delving a little bit more into those. And I'm also writing a commentary volume for a facsimile of an herbal manuscript that's in the British library. It's Sloane 1975. It's a really, really incredible, very highly illuminated herbal that was done approximately 1200. So that's really fun for me to do because it's different. It's. I haven't focused specifically on herbal diagrams before, but that's been an interesting project to work on. So that's kind of where I am right now. And, yeah, hoping to get this article out as well.
- [36:13]
Yana Byers
Good luck on that. I understand the projects you kind of had floating around in the back forever.
- [36:19]
Taylor McCall
Yeah, exactly.
- [36:21]
Yana Byers
I get that. I saw someone suggest that we should have a conference just for the papers. You never quite can finish.
- [36:30]
Taylor McCall
And I presented all this work at conferences, and I keep thinking it'll magically write itself, but never do.
- [36:38]
Yana Byers
They never, never do. All right, once again, this has been a really enjoyable talk. Thanks again, Taylor McCall. We have just been discussing the art of anatomy in medieval Europe. Follow the link and check it out. All right, thanks, Taylor.
- [36:55]
Taylor McCall
Thank you. Thanks so much.