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Learn more at WhatsApp.com welcome to the new Books Network.
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Hello everyone and welcome to mbn. I'm your host Holly Gattery and I'm excited to be joined today by Taya Garbheza, who has a beautiful and remarkable in so many ways, new long poem out with Tamilpses Press and their Anstruther imprint called How I Bend Into More. Based on Teya's experiences with scoliosis, How I Bend Into More re articulates selfhood in the face of ableism and trauma. Meditating on pain, consent and disability, this long poem builds a body both visually and linguistically, creating a multimodal space that forages Thea's grammar of embodiment as an act of reclamation paper quilled shapes represent the poet's body on the page. These shapes weave between lines of verse and with them the reclaimed disabled body is made. How I Bend into More is a distinctive poetic debut that challenges ableist perceptions of normality and centers the double architecture of metamorphosis. Thea, welcome to the show. Hi.
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A
Thanks for having me.
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B
Thank you. I just want to say for our listeners, the double architecture that part on what is quotes just I didn't but those are those are words. I certainly didn't come up with that myself. I'd like to, but I didn't. A Little bit About Thea Taya Corbeza is a queer, disabled, neurodivergent writer and multimedia artist. She has an MFA in writing from the University of Saskatchewan and an MA in English and Creative Writing from the University of Regina. She is the winner of The Ex Puritans 2022 Austin Clark Prize in Literary Excellence for Poetry and has published widely in magazines. So, Taya, I want to get right into this really remarkable book now. I mean, I've read it, and I think for anyone who has heard me just now read what it's about, we can probably guess where these poems came from. But I'd like, in your own words, to talk about perhaps more specifically where the book came from in its incarnation as a long poem. And I have so many questions about undertaking a long poem, but let's just start with that one.
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A
Yeah, that's a great question. Thank you. So I've been writing this book for most of my life in different ways. It started when I was first taking creative writing classes in high school, and I found those writings on my old Tumblr page. And when I was doing research for this book, finding those little blog entries was so instrumental into getting into that mindset that I was in at the time. But I didn't really get really into it until a poetry class with Randy Lundy in in my undergrad. And then finding that it was a long poem took me a while until, like, my MFA in writing at the University of Saskatchewan, I was trying to find my way into the book, and I was feeling like any distinctive poem was always connected to the next one. And I was like, okay, like, what is going on here? And I was talking to my friend Sarah Enns, who also wrote a long poem called Flyway, which ended up being her second book with Turnstone Press. And she was like, maybe you have a long poem. And I was like, oh my God, maybe I do. And so then I had a mentorship with Jennifer still, who writes work that is interconnected herself. And so we kind of. She sort of guided me with the long poem, but I just. The poem, there was too many tangents and too many connections for any of the poems to be distinct from each other. So I just, even though the formatting of the book is very different than what you would expect a long poem to look like, it it, the feeling it gives you and the way that you have to read it all to understand the story rather than reading distinct poems and then seeing sort of a thematic link between them is really essential to the book.
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B
You touched on something that answered that leads so perfectly into my next question, and that is about how there's links and tangents. And you know, tangents can seem like the antithesis of links, but they're not because everything, everything's connected. And it's, it's not necessarily me saying that through in your work you have clearly connected everything. What I mean is as a person in a body, with a, a soul or whatever we want to call it, and with a mind, nothing is completely separate from anything else is bleeding together. And one experience is shaped by another experience. The neurodivergent experience shaped by the queer experience, the queer experience shaped by the experience of living with chronic pain. And your book is a really fascinating meditation on the interconnectedness of these tangents. And then we have these paper quilled shapes which I had never seen before and I was lucky that I heard you speak, speak about them at an event. So I am slightly less unprepared for, for to talk about them now. But I'm also aware of the fact that there are many of our listeners who may not know what paper quilled shapes are. So this question is kind of two part. But much like your work, in my head, it's completely related because the paper quilled shapes are separate and yet bend and twist together. And then also your, you know, tangents are separate, but they're also part of a greater whole. And I'd love for you to talk about these themes in relations.
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A
Yeah. Oh, the beauty of a long poem is that it does allow you to create these off roads that you can come back to and echo to or never come back to, but still connect to the, to the sort of main, main tangents of a life. But yeah, like, I love what you had to say about how, how this sort of, these echoes or tangents sort of relate to all the multifacets of our identities. And I think, I think I was thinking about that as, as I was working because like for example, the paper quilt shapes. So to explain for listeners that may not know what paper quilling is, it's the art, it's the art form of rowing and pinching and weaving paper strips into different shapes. And so in the book, there's a multiplicity of shapes made from paper strips that build a body. And so thinking about the different identities that are sort of in this book, for me, I, I wanted to find a way to articulate some of those in a way that. That come together at the end because we're always sort of growing and becoming in our lifetimes. But I always sort of saw myself as a youth, as disconnected in many ways. And that. That was partly due to some of the ableism that I experienced where it, you know, with. With medical intervention, you feel sort of like a different person. And then in other situations if you have to sort of like protect yourself if you're in an unsafe situation where, you know, being queer isn't safe. And when I was a teenager at the time, I didn't feel safe to. To sort of embrace that identity either. And so part of. Part of my process with this book is. Is. Is bringing all of those selves together and. And relishing in the fact that all of these identities can safely live within me and connect to each other. And it was. It was really cool to add a physical element to that sort of bringing together and connectiveness through the paper coin because what I envisioned was the shapes, the, the sorry, the. The strips of paper to be. I imagined them to be literally pieces of myself or pieces of my body that I myself was building into this sort of new body metaphorically and having that tangibility with my own hands. Being able to twirl and twist and weave was really refreshing and restorative of some of these painful moments in my life that I wanted to explore but maybe didn't have the words for. But the paper in its shapes sort of gave a voice to those parts hearts and allowed me to finally like. There's this sort of theme in the book where the speaker is unable to look at themselves for a variety of different reasons, whether that's shame or whether that's internalized ableism. But also there's moments where they literally can't look at themselves because, you know, scoliosis is a spinal condition. And the only way I could see. See it for myself is like through a mirror or through someone else. So there's that tension in the book where literally the thing that people are ableist towards me about the most is something that I can't really see for myself. So the paper quilling and the making of that paper spine near the end of the book was a way to finally be able to look and feel joy and reconnect with my body. Which is. Which is a theme that I think will continue in work after this book. Times my life where I've had to find strategies to reconnect with my body are so many. And it's something that fascinates me in terms of how the ways our bodies require us to reconnect but also protect us. And yeah, bodies are amazing.
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B
They really, they really are. And one of the, one of the really interesting elements of the book for me was frustration with the body, the lack of control over what your body does. But also, and I want my listeners to understand here that the work in this book, the poets voice, none of it, the speaker of these poems is not beating this theme over the head as much as I am right now. It's just that when I, when I see something, I kind of latch onto it. And it's like a constant exercise in me going, I'm right, I'm right, I'm right because I'm wrong about so much in my life. So it's just this kind of smug sense of self satisfaction that I've latched onto here. But if I look at the poem clearing up the question of how to inhale when spine constricts lung. So to go back to what we were talking about, about the. How everything is separate but connected. I mean the same thing can be said of the body, right? Everything is separate but everything is connected. So how do you breathe when your spine, which is not your lung is affecting your lungs? So again, everything affecting everything else. And I loved how that also plays out in mirrors and complements and deepens that theme of separateness and connectedness in, in this, let's say, collection. It's a, it's a long poem, but it's Collection E. That's not a word, I just made it up. But I was. When I'm looking at this poem, I'm also looking at how, how the poems are shaped, how, how they take up the stage of the page and, and in some of them and in the ones, it's not the ones, it's two separate poems. I mean it's one poem, two separate pages. They have a curve to them. And then on the next page, 3am for that's page 48 for people following along at home, there's a very straight line down the middle of the next two pages and actually throughout the book. And I wanted you to talk about playing with the stage of the page and how you negotiated, you know, telling these piece, not throughout stories, but getting these feelings across, creating these pieces of art that while you're, you're having them read to you is one thing. And then when you see them, it's offering something different and not, not so different that it's not the same poem, but it's, it's different deepening it because I heard you read from this collection before. I saw the poems and I was like wow, this is so cool. I saw a completely different experience, but I will say it was a deeper experience to see the poems on the page. Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real and so is the relief from Ebglis. After an initial dosing phase, about 4 in 10 people taking EBGLIS achieved itraly sleep and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks, and most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.
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C
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A
Oh, that's great. Thank you so much. You're a very generous and an open reader. Yeah, I'd love to talk about shape in the book. So the shape that sort of. The shapes repeat throughout the book. So I'll talk about the sort of facing of that. Clearing up the question of how to inhale when spine constricts lung. Pages 46 and 47. These shapes are sort of. I envisioned them as petals that appear again as a literal paper rose on page 67. Steps for making a paper rose or spinal fusion. I liked this sort of shape because it not only resembled that paper petal that I literally made with my hands, but it also reminded me of my. My. My body when I'm bent over because I have a sort of uneven part where my curvature is sort of the most severe. And so when I bend over to, like, touch my toes, there's this sort of, like, hill, hilly part of my back. And then that shape also reminded me of my back brace when I was a kid and how that looked. And then I also thought that it looked like a pregnant. Pregnant person's belly. Which sort of relates to one of the threads in the book of my. My family and I sort of surviving the Yugoslavian civil war. And my mom, throughout most of it, was pregnant with me. And I wanted to embed that experience within the shapes. Because this book, when it was my thesis project at the mfa, I was thinking about how this line. I was like, what if I. What if I put a line through these palms and what if I cut them? And so then I started thinking about how this line was also a metaphor for a spine, but it also looked like one of those, like, craft directions to, like, cut the page. And I really liked that. And so that's why the book starts out with this line. And. And it says a cut line, a fold line, a stitching, a thread, a surgical trace line, a suture, a scar, a spine, to set the reader up, to envision this line as multiple things. But I wanted it to continue throughout the book because I was envisioning.
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B
So if I.
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A
If books could be any shape, this book might have been a scroll that just opens forever with this sort of, like, thread through it. And so I wanted to embody that in the book as this sort of spine or rod that's in my spine to be present throughout the whole book. And then outside of the actual images in the book, there's also poems where the spacing on the page is very spaced out. And the line. The line, sorry, the one line becomes its own stanza. And those mimicked paper strips and how those might be on the page to sort of emphasize the line, but also envision the parts of the book that I cut up in early drafts to make some of the images throughout where you see the paper quilt shapes. So I had a lot of fun with shape, and I'm very concerned about shape in this book, which I think stems from the fact that a lot of my experience with external ableism was so focused on the shape of my body, and it still is. And, you know, when I was going through surgery, the main concern was like, what will the shape of her spine be? What will the shape of her body be? It has to be perfect. It has to cure her. And lo and behold, it didn't because my. My spine was quite severely curved. And so surgery only took my degree down from 80 degree curvature to a 40 degree curvature. And there wasn't anything else the surgeon could do. And if she went further, Well, I mean, in the book I flatline, so.
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B
There wasn't a lot of.
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A
A lot she could do for me other than that. So I'm glad she stopped because otherwise there would have been more complications if. If they tried to sort of straighten out my spine 100%. So, yeah, the shape in the book is very much a meditation on the shapes of what surround us and sort of these inflicted shapes, but also thinking about, like, what kind of shape am I and why and what does reclaiming a shape sort of look like? That was a very long winded answer.
- [22:39]
B
It was a great answer. And again, smug sense of self satisfaction when I saw. Saw the. The belly of that poem, like that looks like a pregnant belly. And I was like, wow, you're really reading your life experience into this book, Holly. Because, like, I'm. I've had. I've had more babies, Right. So hearing you say that, I'm like, yes, I wasn't. You could see it so clearly, a pregnant belly. So I, I felt like, I'm so good. I was not going to say that, right? Because I'm like, you know, Holly, this whole world doesn't revolve around some, you know, experience of motherhood and mothering. And so that was very nice for me. Like I said, I think especially as I move into my life, having two teenagers now, so 50% of my children are teenagers. I am reminded of how wrong I am about everything. This is like my little pocket of peace today where I get to be right about something. Well, I'm happy to provide that. Thank you. Thank you. I really, I really love that. And I mean, and reading your Book this, collect this collection of poems, this long poem, it made me feel excited about playing with Shape as a poet myself. Kyle Flemmer, supergiant, did that with me too. That whenever I start to feel a little bit archaic in my notion of what poetry is and does, you know, anyone, especially if you write poetry, but even if you don't. I found how I bend into more to be such a riveting and playful exercise and kind of shaking off shackles and letting your mind just do what it needs to do and to play and to view creation like a sandbox. And I'm aware of the fact, as I say this, looking at your poems, I'm aware of the fact that these are the finished creations that came out of a sandbox. But it was nice to hear you say that you had fun with it. And while you were in the sandbox, it was an enjoyable experience because reading the poems, it felt like there was a playfulness in there. And this leads to my next question. While there was also almost unbearable vulnerability, and for me, the biggest chronic oversharer in the land, for me to be like, wow, that's vulnerable. And very. With so much admiration. Like, I had so much admiration for the vulnerability. But there's a picture in particular of a back. And I don't presume that it's your back, but it's of a bat, a black and white picture of a back. And it just actually took my breath away in the context of what had led up to it, in the context of the whole book. I don't know how I would have reacted to that picture if it was in a gallery somewhere, for instance. Right. Like, without the context of everything that I had been through, you know, as a reader of this book up to that point. But I was wondering if you could talk about vulnerability in this book specifically.
- [25:31]
A
Yeah, thank you for that question. I will say the pictures of the back are. Me taking those photos was very difficult in terms of, like, setting up a camera and like, hoping for the best. But this whole book was kind of that exploration of just hoping for the best in terms of playfulness and seeing what the camera or scanner provided me, I. I guess, like vulnerability in this book. As someone who also is a chronic oversharer at. At some points when someone tells me, like, wow, that was really vulnerable of you to share, and I go, oh, really? So sometimes I think I didn't realize that I was. That I was sharing something so vulnerable because it was. It's. It's been my lived experience for so long and, And My. My quest to sort of, like, make my voice heard over the perspectives of others, that was so sort of forced on me. For a lot of my life, it felt necessary to let people in and not to say that I didn't have moments writing this book that I had to really think about, well, what do I want to share and what do I still need to fold close to my heart? And so there are some things that I withheld, but I. I wanted to be open in this book to. To invite people in, but also to hopefully make folks think about, like, what things they're holding close and what things they're sharing or not. I think vulnerability can be very powerful in terms of challenging ableism and homophobia. And as someone who lives in many identities, to me, vulnerability can turn into joy. Like, at the end, being vulnerable with myself, which is something that I rejected for a lot of my younger years, I. I wanted to really be vulnerable with myself. So I spent a lot of time while writing this book, especially taking the. The photos of my naked back.
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B
There was.
- [28:05]
A
There's a sort of power in. In being vulnerable with myself that I wanted to explore in the book because. Because of the ways that I wasn't able to before. And it was a very hard exercise. It was very emotional. But I. But in these. This sort of act of extreme vulnerability of being naked with myself and capturing that on camera, there was this sort of. That's when I. I sort of thought to myself, like, this is a powerful thing for me to do. And it was. It was how I was able to write the. The last movement in the book where. Where it talks about repair and joy and. And healing from some of the ableism that, you know, as a teenager made me want to slice off excess skin and contend with the ways that my body was different and. And being vulnerable was a way that I was able to reclaim these things and. And find my way back into myself.
- [29:19]
B
Yeah, that's such a perfect and wonderful answer. One that sits so deeply with me, especially. Especially when you say, I don't really. You know, you're writing this, and as you're writing something that's so personal. A lot of us don't think that, like, when we're writing our stories, we don't think they're vulnerable or personal because they're very normal to us. It's just. It's like the furniture in the room. I can remember my memoir came out. People, oh, you're so brave. I'm like, what? Oh, my God, do I. Should I be embarrassed of something? I wrote like I didn't even know I should be embarrassed. But apparently I've, I've, you know, shared things that most people would have kept locked in a vault. And it was, you know, it was a very eye opening experience. I understood why people were saying that, but I also hoped, and I really hope your book does the same for readers. Encourages people to examine why we feel so. I mean, we're gonna, we're always gonna have our vulnerabilities, but I think some of our vulnerabilities exist as symptoms of patriarchy, as symptoms of ableism, as symptoms of systems that should not exist and that need to be broken down and, you know, stuffed away somewhere and, or, you know, organically recycled as fast as possible or waste treatment plant more like it. But yeah, I just, I really love that. And I was thinking, you know, I remember seeing a picture of their back and it like, it took my breath away when I saw it. And I thought, wow, I, you know, when I have examination and I have thoughts like that, I think, why, why would. It's just a picture of somebody's back. Why am I having this extremely physical reaction to it where I had to catch my breath? And of course, again, it is in the context of everything else that your work had encouraged me to think about in the positions it put me in, where I had to examine where, you know, my own ableism might lie and sit with that. But I realized it was also, as someone like me who has lived most of my life with an eating disorder, I thought I would never be able to do that. I would never be able to take a picture of my back. And that's what I was responding to is, you know, just, well, for me it was, oh, such vulnerability. I mean, you have graciously shared about that and that it was vulnerable for you too. But I don't, I don't think I could do that. And I was like, well, maybe you should. You don't have to put it in a book, but maybe you should do it and just sit there with this picture of your back and not look away from it. And it's, it seems like such a simple thing to perhaps people listening, but you're going to have to pick up the book and you're going to have to read these poems and you're going to have to arrive at that picture the same way I did, which is just suddenly it's there as you're flipping the page and you will see exactly what I mean, because it is exactly where it needs to be. I, in the book. My next question for you is a request and I was going to ask if you would read to us from your work.
- [32:11]
A
Sure. I will start at the beginning and then hopefully folks will want to read the rest. 12:00am on the ninth anniversary of my spinal fusion. Naked on my bed, whole body bent, Galene 45 degrees, I measure my dark room, Eyes closed, my fingertips, my mirrors trace the crescent overlap of skin over skin and unsolved space curling to child's pose. I lengthen, lean into parentheticals, my body's rotational dynamics another language wanting to be opened, to belong to me. I make a pack, use touch for answers, feel skin, even calloused patches shimmer, our stars flaking into air. How have I not noticed this before? My own quilled shape, a half moon, papery edges, feet swollen. At my own pace, I build a circuitry for repair, for what my body remembers. How do I grasp what my body has to tell me? Thank you so much. Thank you for reading that.
- [33:30]
B
I really do encourage people to pick up this beautiful book. And you know, you can buy it, you can request it to your library, you can give it to friends and family. I mean, I. I mean, there's, there's people. I haven't even really talked about this, but I mean, there are such beautiful visuals in this book as well. Not just the visual of the words on the page, but there, there are visuals. There's what looks like erasure poetry too, and there's just such gorgeous stuff.
- [34:01]
A
I.
- [34:02]
B
My final question for you, and one that I'm interested in, and I think I might have an inkling based on something you said earlier, is what are you working on now?
- [34:10]
A
Oh, thank you for that question. I'm working on a few things and working on another long poem that focuses more on mine and my family migrating to Canada after the war and sort of investigating post memory and intergenerational trauma and sort of the. This sort of questioning of also motherhood and what it would have been like to, you know, be pregnant during a war and how that's affected my mother and me and how I think about having a baby as well. And then I'm also working very loosely on an essay, perhaps a collection. I don't know, it's very early stages, currently on cue cards. I've been writing down questions and lines and things and just clipping them together.
- [35:17]
B
And then, and then on the, on.
- [35:19]
A
The side of all those, I'm also interested in writing poems about friendship and complexities of queer and disabled friendships. And also, basically, I'm writing Love poems to my friends. And that's been really fun too.
- [35:38]
B
I can't wait to read those. I think friends are, you know, real friendship. True friendship, true connection is so under celebrated. I mean, there's this very superficial celebration of it, but writing a love poem to your friend. I think of Lee Hunt's love poem to his friend Jenny, and everyone. Everyone thinks it's a romance poem because it's called Jenny Kissed Me. But Jenny was actually either courted by or married to one of Lee's best friends. So it wasn't like that or, I mean, unless there was some, you know, unrequited romance there. But the poem. Everyone who's watched call the Mindelweiss probably knows that it's Jenny kissed me when we met jumping from the chair she sat in tan, you thief. Who liked to get sweet seniorless. Put that in. Say I'm lonely, say I'm sad, say health and wealth have missed me, say I'm growing old but add Jenny kissed me. And I think it's such a gorgeous, jaunty celebration of how having the right person do the right thing at the right time in your life can just make your day. Like when a friend reaches out and does something just wonderful for you and it's the smallest thing, like a kiss or any kind of gesture. And I just think, yeah. So that made me excited about your poems, as. I'm all for poems.
- [36:54]
A
Thank you. Yeah. Friendship has. As has been very important and. And I. And I want folks to celebrate their friends just as much as their romantic partners because they're so essential to our. To our lives and our survival. Yeah.
- [37:12]
B
Especially as we, you know, kind of curl fetal into this digital world. It's like, no, you know, totally get out there and, like, touch somebody. Get close enough to them that you can sit, like, consensually. See the. The peach fuzz on their face, you know, that, you know, stuff like that. Like, close enough that you could tell me I need to pluck my chin hair. Like that is how close you should be. Yeah, like. And again, consensually, please. But I do think that just like that actual connection is something that is. I'm not gonna say lost. It's not lost. People are still doing it. But when I'm looking at, for instance, my. My children, my teenagers who, you know, I was a teenager, I was out with my friends all the time. I'm noticing it's not my kids. A lot of teenagers just aren't out doing stuff as much, which on one hand, like, oh, cool. My kids aren't getting drunk on somebody's back back 40 like I was. But it's also like, wow. But what are they doing, like, up there in rooms with their devices? I mean, I know because I'm incredibly nosy, but I want them to kind of. I'm like, go to get in trouble. Go do something. Jeez. So, yeah, I really look forward to your poems. Obviously, you said that and got me very excited. Yeah, I can't. I can't wait to read whatever comes of that. And I'll be looking for news if they get published in wonderful literary journals and so on and so forth before the official publication. I love how I'm just assuming this is gonna come to fruition. I do, though, I believe. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, TA on mbn to read about your. Not read. Talk about your wonderful collection of poems, how I bend into more. Everyone, you can get this lovely long poem wherever books are bought or borrowed. Thanks again so much for joining me.
- [39:05]
A
Thank.
- [39:12]
B
You.