Podcast Summary: "The Caste Question with Suraj Yengde and Anupama Rao"

Podcast: New Books Network | Date: February 1, 2026
Host: Ajantha Subramanian
Guests: Suraj Yengde (Harvard, University of Pennsylvania), Anupama Rao (Columbia University)

Episode Overview

This inaugural episode of the CAST pod brings together Suraj Yengde and Anupama Rao, two leading scholars on caste, to unpack the meaning, origins, persistence, and transformations of caste as a social structure. The discussion traces caste’s religious foundations, modern manifestations, the interplay of privilege and disadvantage, and its resonances beyond South Asia—especially in comparative frameworks with race. Through personal stories, historical analysis, and theoretical debate, the episode aims to demystify caste for listeners new and familiar alike.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Caste: More Than a Hierarchy

[03:07-06:29, 06:32-09:36]

• Anupama Rao:

  • Caste is a social relationship akin to race and class but distinguished by a “philosophy of the body,” drawing from Hindu religious origins (the Varna hierarchy).
  • The Varna system metaphor: parts of the body (mouth/Brahmin, arms/Kshatriya, belly/Vaishya, feet/Shudra), with untouchables rendered invisible.
  • In modernity, caste equates to inherited privilege, functioning as an “inverted pyramid” with demographic minorities (upper-castes) controlling resources.
  • It is best seen as a "double helix": status, recognition, and dignity intersect—sometimes conjoining, other times diverging from economic worth.
  • “Caste is a regime of structured inequality… complex, pernicious, and long standing, millennial.” — Anupama Rao [05:41]

• Suraj Yengde:

  • Caste can be examined academically, experientially, or through metaphor:
    • The Dabbawala Analogy: Caste is like lunchboxes—airtight compartments whose contents rarely mix. “It’s an airtight compartment where whatever is inside is meant to remain there…very rarely do we have this interaction of one box with the other.” — Suraj Yengde [08:10]
  • Caste also functions as a global placeholder for societies premised on lineage, descent, and purity.

2. Endogamy, Consent, and Violence

[09:36-15:12, 16:27-21:34]

• Reflections on Intercaste Marriage (Endogamy):

  • Endogamy (marrying within caste) is fundamental to the caste system’s endurance.
  • Yengde: "Annihilation of caste… would not be the only solution... the complicity of institutions... prolongs its life."
  • The paradox: even upwardly mobile Dalits often feel compelled to sever connections with their caste origins due to internalized stigma.
  • Ambedkar’s radical turn to Buddhism is seen as transformative—not just religious conversion, but realignment of social agency and dignity.

• Consent vs. Violence in Caste’s Maintenance:

  • Rao: The desire for rank, per Ambedkar, fosters buy-in to the system; yet, violence undergirds its continuing existence, especially when boundaries are crossed (e.g., "honor killings" in the case of intercaste marriage).

3. Alternative Religious Traditions and Universalism

[15:12-23:57]

• Buddhism as Utopian Project:

  • For Dalits, mass conversion to Buddhism (and to some extent Islam, Christianity) represented not just religious change but an alternative historical self—escaping the Brahminical order.
  • Rao: "Buddhism is probably Ambedkar's most political act… he implodes the entire structure." [22:08]
  • Such universalist moves challenge the inherited strictures of caste.

• Historicizing Caste:

  • Rao identifies three critical historical conjunctures:
    1. Medieval/Early Modern: New caste formations under Islamic and regional kingdoms.
    2. Colonial: Caste becomes bureaucratized, loses and transforms political pertinence.
    3. Constitutional (Post-independence): Creates new legal and political contours for caste.

4. Vernaculars, Radical Imagination, and Dalit Sociality

[23:57-29:29]

• Rao and Yengde debate the role of local vernaculars and lived forms—poetry, ritual, and everyday practice—in enabling a utopian reimagination of caste.
• Yengde: "The untouchable body is not just trying to get by, but is trying to also escape this sin of being born in a certain community." [25:35]
• Dalit identity involves both appropriation (of techniques of belonging/conversion) and constant negotiation.

5. Caste and Race: Comparative Insights

[29:29-43:45]

• Why compare caste and race?

  • Comparative thinking breaks the "provincialization" of caste and shows it as a form of embodied difference akin to race.
  • Diasporic dynamics and lived experience: Rao shares her South Indian Brahmin diaspora upbringing; Yengde recounts his path out of rural Maharashtra.
  • Rao: "Caste is always kind of with you, especially when you claim that it doesn’t matter."
  • Yengde: “Even Ambedkar’s limitation was that it was very urban centric… the time is almost unmoving.” [35:09]

• Diasporic erasure: Subramanian notes how racialization in the US can obscure or even erase caste privilege among Indian Americans.

• Comparison as method:

  • Rao: Comparison "deprovincializes" caste, relating it to global regimes of hierarchy and distinction.
  • The analogy between Dalit and African American experience is both productive and fraught; Yengde highlights differences in roots, trajectories, and historical consciousness.

6. Wilkerson’s "Caste": Globalizing the Analogy

[43:45-58:39]

• Wilkerson’s Success & Critique:

  • Her book popularized the caste-race analogy by using caste to reframe American racism.
  • Yengde: "What Isabel Wilkerson does ... is to really do what a good journalist investigating their own malady would do." [44:53]
  • The approach draws on a long tradition in US sociology—Du Bois, "color caste," etc.—and also reflects how race has often become the universal signifier of social hierarchy.

• Rao’s Scholarly Reservations:

  • Appreciates the book's public impact and necessity for solidarity but notes important scholarly absences (materiality, labor, historic complexities).
  • Points out that deeper analysis of caste's economic and regional dynamics, and attention to historical conjunctures (also Germany, beyond just India and the US), is lacking.
  • Draws attention to debates in South Asian studies (Dumont, hierarchy vs. inequality; Du Bois, the role of equality in producing race).

7. Privilege and Caste: The Need for Balanced Analysis

[48:05-53:39]

• Both guests stress that research must increasingly target caste privilege (not just disadvantage), including the reproduction of elite cultural norms, educational access, and newer forms of lifestyle-based dominance.
• Yengde: "Caste is basically a relative institution. It’s an organization that cannot exist on its own…The focus has been on the Dalit…out of question is with the Brahmin…we need a critical research on how privilege constitutes itself." [48:51]
• Rao: “It is actually a form of violence, euphemized, you know, it’s structured, but it’s also conjunctural.” [50:54]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Anupama Rao:

  • “Caste is a regime of structured inequality…complex, pernicious, and long standing, millennial.” [05:41]
  • “There are new caste antagonisms right, that are constantly forming because of this social fact on the ground.” [50:54]

• Suraj Yengde:

  • “It’s an airtight compartment … very rarely do we have interaction of one box with the other because it’s meant to be there.” [08:10]
  • “The untouchable body is not just trying to get by, but is trying to also escape this sin of being born in a certain community.” [25:35]
  • “Caste is basically a relative institution… we need a critical research on how privilege constitutes itself.” [48:51]

• Ajantha Subramanian:

  • “The experience of racialization can lead to a further erasure or occlusion of caste privilege… that prevents [Indians in the diaspora] from fully contending with the caste inheritances that allowed them to be mobile subjects in the first place.” [33:29]

Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamps | |-----------------------------------|---------------------| | Introduction & Guest Bios | 00:09–02:37 | | What is Caste? | 03:07–09:36 | | Endogamy, Consent, & Violence | 09:36–16:27 | | Alternative Religions & Buddhism | 15:12–23:57 | | Vernaculars & Utopian Imaginations| 23:57–29:29 | | Caste and Race: Comparisons | 29:29–43:45 | | Wilkerson’s "Caste" & Reception | 43:45–58:39 | | Privilege & Future Directions | 48:05–53:39 | | Closing Thoughts | 58:48–End |

Conclusion

The conversation deftly navigates the complexity of caste as lived experience, historical structure, and global analogy. Guests urge for deeper intersectional analysis, with more attention to privilege as well as to comparative contexts. By weaving personal, historical, and theoretical threads, the episode provides a nuanced entry point for anyone curious about the workings of caste and its global implications.