Michael Furey (2:51)

Every party pooper who loves books says the exact same thing whenever you watch an adaptation, which is.

Dan (2:57)

It's never as good as the book.

Michael Furey (2:59)

Which in this case, as in any case, might actually be true, of course, because I think that that's one of. That's one of the all time great short stories and expression of a certain kind of doofus in English. I mean, I think that there are people that take that short story very seriously and they don't understand the rich humor of everything that's being expressed. I think people who focus on Joyce's epiphanies, which is kind of like the C students take on Joyce, miss the richness of what's going on in the ways that the characters interact. And because they don't have aunts like that, and they've never had a. And they've never heard people in the other room, you know, like T.S. eliot's, you know, in the room, the women come and go talking of Michelangelo, but in this case it's Caruso, you know. And so if you've never been exposed to that kind of atmosphere, I think a lot of the humor is lost on you. And so I think one of the beautiful things about this film as a companion to the story is that once you've watched this movie, you can't say, I've never been to a party like that. Because the movie is the experience of going to a party like that. I think that there's a certain kind of person who, if you sat through this movie with them and at the end you say, how'd you like it? They would say it was okay, but nothing happened. And I think your take is either either nothing happened or everything happened.

Dan (4:29)

Well, I love what you said about the comedy because of course, the comedy's all in there. There's a lot of great jokes in this and there's a lot of like, maybe not laugh out loud jokes, but like warm humor. Warm being that, you know, until you get to the end with the snow, and all of a sudden you realize it's almost like you. And that's of course, a big sucker punch set up by Joyce.

Michael Furey (4:47)

Well, I think part of the sucker punch is you have to experience both the story and the movie kind of through Gabriel. And I think part of experiencing it through Gabriel is as somebody who takes things too Seriously, in other words, I don't think I'm offering a gloss of life that is from outside the story or my experience of talking to people. Joyce sort of writes a story in which there's warmth and humor and human expression. It's arts and politics and a specific time, but also the universal expression of family combined with. There's something that Flaubert does with language in French that I think that Joyce does with his characters, which is he uses a specific tense in French, which is not just for things that have been done in the past tense, it's for things that characters are always doing. As in, there's. There's a way of saying, he went to the store, as in, I went to the store one time and he went to the store, meaning he habitually goes to the store. And Joyce seems to find that same tense that exists in French in English, meaning it's not just that they have this party this year, they're always having this party. But if you're Gabriel and all you're worried about is your speech, the speech in your pocket and what people think of you, and am I going to be as good this year as I was last year? And does my wife really like me? If you experience a certain kind of self consciousness, you can be. You are in the party, but not of it.

Dan (6:15)

So absolutely. You know, one of the things people will say about this movie is. And they'll say this about the story too, because I've taught the story a bunch of times. Very, very smart people will say this, okay, she hears the song the Last of Aughm. He sees her that night in the hotel. She says what the song's about. And then Gabriel has his epiphany, his revelation, right? People will say, then why do we need the whole first 2/3, right, of the party? And I think that's a really good question to ask. Like, why is that all in there? Right? Because it seems like nothing happens. Or like you said before, someone could say nothing really happens until the end. But of course, things are happening all the time. It's just that Gabriel can't see them. And until you know about the song, you really can't see them a lot of either. Right? When we were getting ready for today, I thought to myself, I don't know if we're gonna be able to pull off our three act structure for this one, because the ending is so infused and all the rest of it, right? Like, you think the story's about one thing, you think the movie's about one thing. Gabriel thinks this Movie's about one thing, and then he finds out at the end, like, oh, no, no, no. There's something else much different going on. What did you think of the opening credits?

Michael Furey (7:17)

It's the only movie or one of a handful where if you removed the opening credits, the structure of the movie would be different. I mean, if this movie had a cold open, so to speak, it would be totally different. It has almost like. I thought of it as an airlock because it's supposed. It's trying to separate you. It's like being in the time machine, and the time machine is revving up and the door is about to open and spit you out in the party. But you have to kind of forget where you are. And I think that it's almost hypnotizing. It's kind of entrancing, and it's boring on purpose in a way, in order to cleanse your palate so that you can eat dinner.

Dan (8:00)

I think it was interesting, like, how you're supposed to regard Gabriel. He has this great revelation at the end, which I know we'll talk about in Part three, but he's not like a bad guy. He worries about. Seems like I won't even say the wrong things, but you're right, he's nervous about that speech as if he's addressing Parliament. And there's a great part in the short story, it's not in the movie, where he wonders if this quotation by Robert Browning will be over their heads. And he's kind of like. Like, that's what he worries about. He wants to be like this cool continental. There's the Buffenian woman who calls him like a West Britain, who is gc. Why'd you write for that English newspaper? Why don't you go explore your own country? Right. One of the things about Gabriel that occurred to me watching this again is that he's not good at imagining the interior lives of other people. And so that's what the galoshes are all about. Right. Like, you're gonna protect you from all those things. When. When Greta says to him, oh, I'd love to go back to Galway, he says, well, then go ahead and go. And you're kind of like, well, that was kind of like. Like he never once goes into somebody. Does that make sense?

Michael Furey (8:58)

Yeah, because I think that what he's missing is he's too wrapped up in himself. If I can use the galoshes as pick up where you left off.

Dan (9:08)

Right.

Michael Furey (9:09)

I think sometimes older people give younger people this advice. And then even if you Give it. Somebody older than you will also give it, which is try not to worry too much about it. Just enjoy it while you're there. You'll enjoy it when you get there. And I think that that's. That's sort of. That's the trick of life. And it's what everybody else understands. Even the drunk Mr. Brown understands that about life that Gabriel does not understand. It's one thing to be inebriated, and we'll get into that in part two. But Gabriel seems reluctant to sip the joy of life.

Dan (9:44)

He does.

Michael Furey (9:45)

I think that that's what the party's about. That's what you would lose if you detached the party from the rest of the story. One thing that you're able to do visually, though, in the story is you're able to have the person watching the movie enjoy the party in a way Gabriel's not. And that's one thing that you can do in a movie that you can't do in the story. And so this is like the ultimate art cliche. But if you're going to make a movie out of the dead, you should do something that only a movie can do that is beyond the limit of the story. And I think that the richness of the visual expression, the richness of the soundtrack, the richness of the character ensemble that you have makes for an enjoyable movie. And part of the point of the first two thirds of it is that Gabriel's missing out.

Dan (10:31)

Yes. And you watch him miss out, because I watch that. And I'm like, I would love to go hang out with Mr. Brown and Freddie. That seems like I'd go to that party. It seems like a great time. But Gabriel, of course, everything is like a task. So the first thing he does when he walks in is complain. Cause the two aunts wanna make sure he's the only one that could take care of Freddy. Remember that? Is it Freddy? Oh, he's gonna be stewed. Like you said about going to the store. Like, Freddie is he, who is stewed all the time. And then Gabriel comes in like, oh, we would have been here sooner, but my wife takes four mortal hours to dress herself. Now everybody complains about how long their wife takes to leave the house. Like, you're in the driveway with the car running and, like, are you coming or not? Right? But, like, he's got this, like, edge to him. It's like, well, you're here now. Like, it's the. It's your. It's the big, you know, party. Like, enjoy yourself. Right. Gabriel can't Enjoy himself because he's too insecure.

Michael Furey (11:19)

His. His aunt has fake anxieties because it's something that they do all the time. She has. She. She.

Dan (11:25)

Old lady anxieties.

Michael Furey (11:26)

She worries about the same thing every year, but every year it turns out fine. And she knows inside that it's going to be fine. Gabriel's a person trying to act cool, but inside is inwardly anxious about that everything's not going to be all right. And in fact, it is not.

Dan (11:39)

And that's why we have the party. Going back to that question I asked a couple minutes ago, that's why the party has to be there in full, because it makes the end that much more meaningful, and it gives you a glimpse into who Gabriel is and what he's like as person. And then you can only gauge how much he might change based upon the Michael Fury story by knowing who he is.

Michael Furey (11:57)

If you didn't sit through the party and you just heard the story, you might think that the revelation that he's having is something his wife is doing to him. In. In other words, it's. It's not Eyes Wide Shut, okay? It's.

Dan (12:09)

It.

Michael Furey (12:09)

The. The. The party makes it clear that this is something that he's doing to himself.

Dan (12:14)

And I want to go on record and say, I'd rather go to this party than the one in Eyes Wide Shut Up.

Michael Furey (12:17)

Is that so? You say?

Dan (12:22)

Welcome back. In Part two, we always talk about a key moment or something that struck us or an epiphany, if you will, that we had while watching the movie. Mike, what do you got?

Michael Furey (12:30)

This movie is full of very interesting and beautiful reversals outside of the key reversal, which is Gabriel realizing, partly realizing what life is about and. And what death is about. And I'm interested in sort of. I call it like the taxonomy of scoundrels that you find in this movie, which is. It's like every gradation of moral and immoral behavior. It's. It's as though the. It's the party of humanity. And so all. And so all of humanity is together. But. But the best is how a Catholic drunk interacts with a Protestant drunk. And I think it'll look great. Part of the joke is that the Protestant drunk always maintains an air of respectability, no matter how drunk he is. And Freddie is always assumed to be a scoundrel, whether he's a little drunk drunk or very drunk, no matter which of them it is. And they get drunk in different ways. One of them gets extremely confrontational, but the other gets very kind of sloppy. And tender. And if you had to vote, if you watch 20 minutes, the first 20 minutes of the movie, and I asked you to vote how much you like Mr. Brown versus Freddie, you'd say, well, you know, Mr. Brown is like your funny uncle who's at the party, you know, and Freddie's a nuisance. And then by the time you observe their human behavior at the end, you might have a different. A different take on what it's like. And Freddie's tenderness to him in doing him the favor of driving him home, even though his mother says, let's not drive him home. And he said, he's done the same for me under similar circumstances. And so.

Dan (14:09)

No, what he says is, he's done the same for me under similar circumstances.

Michael Furey (14:14)

Exactly. And again, I think what that's supposed to dramatize is even Freddy has a kind of self awareness that Gabriel lacks. It's as though, you know, Gabriel takes him into the bathroom and forces him to wash his. To wash his face. And when he looks at himself in the mirror, part of the joke is you're wondering if, you know, he's trying to unread in his eyes before he goes and sees his mom. But I think the point is that he can actually see himself when he's looking at his reflection in a way that Gabriel cannot. And so there's sort of. When you're at a family party, especially this kind of family party, where it's the human family, you can get away with bad behavior which goes unjudged. And it's as though there's something about this movie where. Where their poor behavior is all unjudged because the person that looks respectable, you know, falls asleep drunk in the hall. And the person that you assume is a scoundrel, turns out he knows exactly who he is, he's doing the best he can with himself under the circumstances. And he comes out as a quasi sympathetic or at least comical figure at the end. And it's only Gabriel, really, who is judged, if you will, because he can see his own reflection. In fact, he's staring at it in the hotel as he's getting undressed. But he can't see himself.

Dan (15:34)

I'll go on record because my moment's also about Freddy. But I just want to say here that I wish they would release 20 movies as big as the Marvel universe about the adventures of Freddy Mollens. I would watch every. Wouldn't you go see every one of them?

Michael Furey (15:46)

The Freddy comic universe, totally like him.

Dan (15:49)

And Mr. Brown going on adventures that would be totally Great. He is so good. So my moment's also about that, and I'm gonna work backwards. My moment is about after Aunt Kate sings a raid for the bridal. And she sings the whole long song, and she's like, I have never heard you sing so clearly. And he's kind of embarrassing everybody. I wanna go backwards because I think that's my moment when I watch it this time. You said before about how the credits make you listen to music like that you have to sit there. I love how you said it was kind of like the airlock getting ready to go into the other universe. So this movie is very much about who hears what and who's attuned to certain sounds in other people's lives. Gabriel is not. Gabriel doesn't care about music. When Mary Jane is playing the piano, remember Mr. Brown and the other guys? I love how they kind of sneak off into the hallway where the whiskey is, and they come back right at the end like they don't want to do the whole thing, right? And then obviously, there's Greta hearing the song on the landing. But even Bartel d', Arcy, the great tenor, the great opera singer, remember, he's not singing that song because he thinks it's a great song or to show off, he won't sing all night. He's only singing it to impress that girl because he thinks he has a shot with her, right? So even the singer doesn't hear what he's singing. You know what I mean? Like, even he can't hear what that song means. What I love about that moment is that Freddie's like, I never heard you sing so clearly. And he's not being sarcastic. He's not trying to, like, make an old lady feel better. She even downplays. She goes, well, maybe in my time, there was a time when maybe I had a little bit of a talent, but I just did it for now. And I think what's cool about that moment is that later Gabriel thinks to himself about Michael Fury. He says, you know, better to pass boldly into that other world in some kind of glory than let that passion fade. Now, that's not what she's doing when she's singing a raid for the bridal. But it's kind of close, right? Like, in the party. In the party scene, there's kind of, like this veneer of how you're supposed to act at the party. And you don't get, like, too emotional and you shouldn't, like, you know, you have. There's rules you have to follow in A family gathering. But I love how in that moment, like, something, like, really emotional almost happens, and it almost comes through, and Freddie's, like, looking around like, didn't anybody hear that? Like, was that unbelievable? And they kind of regard him like he's a child, because he is childlike. Right. But I think what's great about it is that this movie's about who can hear the music. So when Gabriel's waiting, obviously, for Greta on the staircase, and he's looking at her, and he's like, what's she making that face for? He doesn't hear the song either. And of course, only at the end does he really hear the snow tapping on the pain.

Michael Furey (18:12)

Freddy is willing to be moved, which is why he. Which is why he's movable, you know, When Gabriel's in the hotel room, he imagines what it would be like when his aunt finally dies. But mostly he's imagining himself, mourn her. He's not thinking about her at all. Freddie is moved because he's. I think it's. It's the opposite of going out in a rush of glory. He's saying, you know, at. That this faded glory is still glorious enough. He both hears what she must have sounded like, and he hears what she does sound like because she's willing to step up in front of everybody.

Dan (18:50)

So welcome back to Part three, where we talk about the ending or the title. Much to discuss here. Mike, what do you got?

Michael Furey (18:55)

Well, I just want to pick up kind of where you left off and maybe set you up a little bit, because the interesting thing about this movie and the short story is that it's haunted by the past, whereas to us, of course, it is the past. And so it's like a historical novel in which the people in the past are discussing the past. And so if you're John Huston and you're thinking about that, and you think, well, that's a technical problem for me, because how do I establish this as the present? And I think that that's what the setup to the party has to do. That's why you watch people rush around in the hall. That's what the music of the credit is doing. That's what watching Gabriel take off his galoshes and ask about. Do you remember what the servant girl in the hall that he gives the tip to says about the boys? He says, you know, they're only.

Dan (19:42)

They're only palaver and what they can get out of you.

Michael Furey (19:45)

Nowadays, the boys now is all palaver and what they can get out of you. And so I think a lot of the dialogue, in fact, is trying to set up some other Ireland that they're talking about. It's kind of like their version of merry England, but it's merry Ireland. And. But what they're talking about is the Ireland of the 1870s or 1880s, which of course, she would never have seen. She only knows about it because that's what her mother says or something, and she's echoing her. So there's a lot of work done in this movie and in the short story to establish the present moment as the present so that you can deal with the past.

Dan (20:20)

It's like a level of world building. People ascribe to Lord of the Rings or something, but there's just as much of that going on. So, okay, so I don't know. Ask me about the ending. So ask me about my take on the last scene.

Michael Furey (20:33)

So understanding that it primarily wants to deal with the past or that people are haunted by the past. And the title is the Dead. What do you make of that having to do with the title or the ending or the key takeaways?

Dan (20:47)

Well, of course, we talked about how the dead permeate the movie and permeate the story. And the story is about a guy who was cuckolded by a ghost, you know, at the end. That's certainly one way to think about it. Maybe it's a little snarky, but it's certainly one reading of it. But, you know, the newspapers were right. Snow was general all over Ireland. So Gabriel gets the news. I mean, he gets the front page edition delivered to his doorstep. And he learns a lot about himself. You know, he's the Archangel Gabriel. Archangel Gabriel. But there's also Michael, another angel who also comes back with a lot of fury. So let's unpack the Michael Fury story. Another question that I was asked many times, I remember talking about the story to people is this, why hadn't Greta ever told him about Michael Fury? Now, like, you know, you know, very, like smart readers have said, how come she never told them? I want to get your hot take on that. What would you say if somebody asked you that?

Michael Furey (21:39)

There's common sense reasons why not. But also it's Gabriel. You can't tell Gabriel anything. I mean, I think. I think you understand a lot about their relationship just in the exchange they have back going on vacation. And she says, I would love to see the west of Ireland and I'd love to see my people. And he says, you can go if you want.

Dan (21:54)

Go, go. Right.

Michael Furey (21:55)

You know, that's not how you talk to your wife.

Dan (21:58)

So that's exactly what I said. Like, there's no good part to point to bring it up. Is that like a third date story? Is that like a when you get engaged? Anything I should know about you? Well, this one guy once died for me. I think he died for me. He was 17. There's no good time to bring it up, but there's certainly no good time to bring it up if you're Greta, because Gabriel will just dismiss it or something like that. But of course, tonight she can't. And what's so fascinating about that is that what I love about the moment is that Gabriel gets the whole story. And of course, he's on another planet when they're driving back, he's telling that long story about Johnny the horse going around and around the pillar, and he thinks it's like some great story, and she's looking out the window, and he's like, oh, my story didn't land. And there's a lot in the movie and in the story where he thinks they're gonna go back. They have one night without the kids. They're in a hotel room. He assumes a certain thing is going to happen in that room, and, boy, does it not. And that's, of course, what he thinks. In the story, it says he longed to be master of her strange mood. And he can't tell what is it about the song. And everything he says about Micah Fury is to undermine him. He says, oh, well, who was he? Oh, I guess that's why you wanted to Galway. Go to Galway, then. And she's like, I can't. He's dead. So she tells him the story, right? And for me, the line that gives me goosebumps, that makes it truly frightening as a story about a ghost is, he says he had never felt that way about anyone, but he knew that it must be loved. And that's like, oh. Because he thinks he loves her. And again, like, Gabriel's not. He's not a jerk. He's not a bad person, right? But you think you know who your wife is. We all say that. Like, you know her better than anybody. But what if you didn't? Like, what if you think your definition of love was actually not the only definition? Or there was, there was another way to think about it, and you didn't know that you would know more, right? He's the Ancient Mariner. He's going to wake up a sadder and a wiser man. But the sorrow comes with the wisdom.

Michael Furey (23:50)

Well, at the same time, I mean, I think, okay, what is it about him that's so annoying? The annoying thing about him is how restrained and sensitive he is. And so you have to ask yourself, what are you buying with that restraint and sensitivity? And I think he would say, if he was being honest, control.

Dan (24:06)

Control and also the esteem of others.

Michael Furey (24:08)

Right?

Dan (24:09)

And himself. And the esteem of himself, too.

Michael Furey (24:11)

Life is what other people think about me and circumstance. And so if I could control circumstance, right. And what other people think about me, then I can control reality. And I think that the ultimate reality that you cannot control, of course, is death. And so it's a. It's a way for him to understand that he. He has no control over his circumstance or what other people think about him or his own wife or his life. And when it's going to end, that that's the reason for the galoshes. The reason for the galoshes is, you.

Dan (24:39)

Know, protect you from those things.

Michael Furey (24:41)

You cover your feet, you're. You stay protected, you stay warm, and you don't die like Michael Fury, right? And there's a dynamic there for how covered to uncovered you are means how uniquely and really you experience life. And I think that this is the story of a guy in his late 30s or early 40s who has experienced a certain amount of life and has never lived.

Dan (25:06)

Has Gabriel. And I'm going to make it. I mean, ask a facetious question, but we're going to go somewhere with the answer. I know you'll. Has Gabriel. Would Gabriel ever cry during a movie?

Michael Furey (25:14)

No.

Dan (25:15)

No. Right? No. Right. Because why. He does not like vulnerability, right? So to get choked up in a movie, to get choked up on the staircase, when you hear a song, even to get a lot, he'd be like, what are you doing? It's just a movie. Like, why would you cry about that? Right? And that's what the galoshes are about, right? And so. But this movie's about somebody who thinks he's got really good armor on. And all of a sudden he finds out that he is. And not only is that armor not any good, but a dead guy can pierce it.

Michael Furey (25:43)

It's also about meaning. He would. Gabriel would intellectualize and he would say, you're crying. You're. You're. You're focusing on the vulcarity of the emotion because you don't understand what this is really about, right? But the joke's on him because even his aunt, who he thinks of as a silly old woman, as much as he likes her, she understands something about life that he doesn't that's why she keeps having this Christmas party over and over. Like, why? Why, as humans, do we have the same party over and over? Because what is life if you can't spend time with the people who give meaning to time as a way to pass the time towards the march of eternity, towards time, towards timelessness?

Dan (26:21)

So when snow is general all over Ireland, I mean, so is death. I mean, that's what I think. I take it to Snow is the thing that kills Michael Fury, kills everybody else. But how good is this? How great is it at the end of the movie? Think about this. I wonder if you're going to say the same thing I did. What directorial misstep could John Huston have made with the end of this movie that would have totally blown it?

Michael Furey (26:43)

Well, so the one thing that you can't have is he can't go over. Do you remember when he sits next to her and he gently takes her hand, and she takes her hand away? I think the understanding that that single moment is all of a sudden gonna melt him and make him a more tender person. It's not like the end of the Grinch. I mean, he recognizes something. But having starved yourself of life, you cannot make your heart suddenly grow three sizes.

Dan (27:10)

That day, I thought that was great that you don't see now. There is a hope. This is a parenthetical thing. There is a hope that, you know, that Gabriel can grow from this because, again, he's not a terrible person. Right. But it's going to take, like, that's a lot of growth. I mean, this is like a lot of time in the gym. What I was thinking about the directorial misstep is you don't get a flashback from Greta to see Michael Fury outside right now. You could think of, like, some bad director, you know, that could have done, like. You know what we'll do then we'll cut, and then. And then she'll look out the window and she'll see the ghost of Michael Fear out there. That would be terrible. Why?

Michael Furey (27:45)

You can't. Because it's like, saw. When she says, I never saw such eyes like that. You can't, you know, I mean, you can't actually show a pair of eyes, because as soon as you see them as a viewer, you can be like, well, I have seen eyes like that.

Dan (27:56)

It would also let us into Greta's consciousness, and we're not allowed to go in there. That's a very tender, private thing Greta's been carrying around. She'll tell us about it, but we.

Michael Furey (28:07)

Can'T see it away from the party. So absent the party, you're supposed to feel claustrophobic in that room. Because I think if life and other people's minds who are experiencing real life are intended to be a three story house that's full of warmth and laughter, Gabriel's mind is like a cold hotel room where he just, he walks around the floor. And I think that that's also how visually the first 2/3 of the movie operate against the last third.

Dan (28:39)

And to end this conversation about the dead, I just want to point this out there and make this what you will. I don't know if you know this, but he got done making the movie. It was all done and then he died and then it premiered. So the only thing that sticks around is art. Thank you, John Huston, and thank you everybody for listening. We hope you enjoyed our conversation about the dead. You could follow us on substack@PagesAndFrames. Where else, Mike?

Michael Furey (29:02)

On Substack, the Grumbler's Almanac.

Dan (29:04)

So you can read both of our things on movies and on events of the day and whatever grabs you. You could also give us requests there. You could email us@15minutefilmmail.com or you could just tag us on substack and let us know what to watch. Thanks for listening, everybody.

Michael Furey (29:16)

We'll see you next time.