Mike (2:15)

Yeah, it's 90 minutes or less or your money back.

Dan (2:19)

So in part one, we always talk about our overall take on the movie or what we thought by watching it again. I hadn't seen this movie in decades, and I don't think you did either, Mike. And we kind of just both stumbled upon it. Mike. At part One, we say our overall take. What was it like to rewatch this? Go.

Mike (2:34)

Whenever you watch an Alfred Hitchcock movie, and then you talk to somebody who loves Alfred Hitchcock, they will inevitably say some variation of this sentence, which is. But really it's about the movies, which it is. But that when we're talking about Hitchcock, we're talking about subtleties or we're talking about figurative imaging that he uses to get you to think about what it's like to be a spectator to certain things. And Woody Allen just kind of ups the ante and says, I'll see your figurative viewership, and I'll raise you actual viewership. And so there's a kind of goofy quality about this movie. The movie's gambit is it's gonna give up some of Hitchcock's seriousness, but in return, it's going to get to be about five movies at once. And it seems to be kind of like a version of Dostoevsky's the Idiot, crammed in with Vladimir Nabokov talking about art, crammed in with a screwball comedy, crammed in with an actual love for real screwball comedies. The one thing that you'll notice about this movie is sometimes there's movies in other movies. When you watch Home Alone, you know, there's that funny interlude where he's watching the black and white gangster movie and says, you know, keep the change, you filthy animal.

Dan (3:54)

Filthy animal.

Mike (3:54)

Which is. It's like 90 seconds of a movie. But here we get long stretches of movie that really have nothing to do with the plot until you watch the end and you find out exactly what they have to do with it. And so I think. I think you have to respect the aesthetic gambit of taking on some goofiness in order to do about four or five things at once. And they're all done.

Dan (4:17)

Well, I had a lot of those same exact things. I even wrote down Nabokov. I wrote down love of screwball comedy. He certainly takes the metaphor of being lost in a movie or immersed in a work of art and pushes it. And I'm laughing at what you said about Hitchcock. It's about the movie we did our whole episode. I think it was on Liberty Valance. We said. We got so sick of hearing people say, well, you know, all of Ford's Westerns are what, Mike, about the Western, right? And so we kind of get tired of that. But this movie really is about the movies, you know, not in some, like, what you have to, like, tease it out. It's right there. And that's been a big Woody Allen theme for a long time. Like you play it again. Sam is about a loser who wishes he were living in Casablanca. And there's that great bit in Annual hall where they're in line at the movies and the guy's talking about Marshall McLuhan and he says, you don't know what you're talking about. And he pulls Marshall McLuhan out from, from behind like a snack bar and gets him to talk. So Woody Nell is really interested in this. He also has a really funny short story called the Kugelmas episode where this guy has a box and if you throw in a book, you get to meet people in that book inside the box. So he ends up going out with Madame Bovary and Natasha from War and Peace. So that's a very Nabokovian idea, right? The barrier between art and real life getting thinner and thinner and thinner. This movie is certainly a movie for people who love movies. It's perfect that he picked it happening in the Great Depression because the country's economically depressed, but she's also emotionally depressed. And the movies pull you out of those things. And it's a specific kind of movie. You know, this wouldn't work if, if Mia Farrow every day went and watched no country for Old Men or something, right? The movie she watches, this screwball upper class comedy that's, that's the solace of the movie theater to her. And the movies haven't been made yet that, that do things besides, by and large, besides those kinds of movies that, that Tom Baxter is in or I should say Gil Shepard. And only somebody that's seen a million of those things could make a parody as good as this one.

Mike (6:14)

You'd have to really love it because just like reading Woodhouse or reading anything like it, it's like whatever would be better than, I don't know what's better than a first world problem, A zero world problem. You know, in Wodehouse it's always two outrageously attractive people that want to get married. But like their uncle has the money and you got to figure out a way to trick the uncle into saying yes to the marriage. It's whatever is beyond a first world problem is what exists in those places. And Evelyn Waugh talking about Woodhouse said really that it's the Garden of Eden and that's, you know, it's a sort of non religious Eden, if you will. And that's what I think Nabokov and Woody Allen say have in common. There's like a certain kind of aesthetic atheist for whom art is the heavenly place.

Dan (7:04)

Right.

Mike (7:04)

And so you can. How can you experience heaven on earth? Like the place where earth and heaven meets would be sitting in the dark like Pauline Kael watching the movies but enjoying it more than her.

Dan (7:13)

Yeah, those guys don't take a course in college called like the Bible is literature. They take, they teach one called Literature is the Bible.

Mike (7:20)

Yeah, it's a kind of sacramental vision of art. And so this is about the implications of it crossing back into the real world.

Dan (7:30)

And let's push that a little more. The other thing that occurred to me watching it again was it's so great, and this is the Nabokov idea is that, you know, it's great that just because of the setting that the black and white film is more real to her than her full color life. And that's something I think is really, really interesting. Right. And that made me think about this. There are characters. This is going to sound crazy, but it's true. There are characters that we know better and more thoroughly than actual people, like we see at work all the time. Right. Like if you could think who's a character that you would say you know better and more intimately than like some real people.

Mike (8:08)

You know, the reason I like the movie is that I think there's one in the background of this which is Prince Mishkin from the Idiot is the, is the character from the Purple Rose of Cairo that steps off the screen and he doesn't understand what a lie is. He's willing to stand up and fist fight for his lady's honor. He always tells the truth. He's willing to put himself in harm's way and the society is not sure how to interact with him. And Mishkin is just such, is such an absolutely real person that like most 20 year olds that read it for the first time, you know, I thought Prince Mishkin was like the best literary character ever. And that's somebody who lives kind of rent free in your brain where you can talk to in exactly the same way that she wishes that she could talk to him. And all of a sudden he turns around and talks to her.

Dan (8:55)

Right. Living rent free in your brain is a good way to think about it because, you know, a day doesn't go by where I don't like quote Johnson or I think of a character from Flannia Rho, Ghana or something. And I started to think in this movie, like, well, who are some charact from movies it will be fun to meet. And I'm trying to think to myself like, well, maybe like, like Would you want to meet Rick and Casablanca? The answer is like, no, you wouldn't want to meet Rick, because why not?

Mike (9:15)

He's a jerk.

Dan (9:16)

Yeah, well, that's pretty harsh. I would just say he wouldn't be interested in anything I had to say. He's. He's too cool for me. I'm like, well, let's see. Let's meet John Wayne. John Wayne. Stagecoach would be cool to meet. I don't know, you know, maybe in the man who Shot Liberty Valance. And then I'm like, oh, the whole cast of his Girl Friday would be. Would be great to meet, right? It'd be great to go. To. Go to dinner with Walter and see.

Mike (9:35)

Or to walk through the newspaper. You feel like that office is just as real to you, like with the swinging bench thing, the swinging door. It also occurs to me that there's a. There's almost a kind of a joke about. I don't know, if you. You go see action movies with people and then you're driving, you go, how did you like it? And there's always that one guy in the car who's like, of course, you'd never be able to jump a motorcycle that far.

Dan (9:58)

Right?

Mike (9:59)

Because for them, they accept the limitations of reality. And I think this is about, like, a certain kind of belief in art and especially cinema means you don't have to accept the realities or limitations of life as they come.

Dan (10:12)

Hence the greatness of the Mission Impossible franchise.

Mike (10:18)

Welcome back. So in Part two, of course, we always talk about our key moments. Dan, what do you got?

Dan (10:22)

So it's not great enough that she goes into the movie. It's also that the movie comes out to her, and the movie keeps going back and forth, and it's never, ever dull. And it keeps surprising you because it keeps turning the notch up higher and what's gonna happen? And I thought that one of the great surprises in it, there's all these joke surprises, like they say, like in, you know, in Chicago, four more of them walked off the screen. And, like, there's all this kind of, like, mass chaos going on at movie theaters. That's just like a great gag, right? But one of the really interesting jokes was that when. When she meets Jeff Daniels, the real. The real Gil shepherd, the real guy who's not the. Not the character, the real actor, right? And he falls in love with her as well. Do you remember why he eventually leaves her? It's because the Tom Baxter business of the character walking off the screen, it could hurt his career. And he's afraid that he can't be now tied down to this woman, you know, in this. This loser town. And he's. He's got bigger things. He's got to go to Hollywood and stuff like that. So he was so sincere. And he tells. He tells me a pharaoh who's like, so. So say, sympathetic or vulnerable in the movie, right? He says to her, I really love you, right? And she can't believe it. She has both the character and the movie star both in love with her. The movie star says, I want to be with you. You're going to go on this whirlwind tour. You're going to go to Hollywood with me. You're going to meet everybody. But then he just abandons her because of his career. And. And she's crestfallen. And you are, too, a little bit. It's not the movie that knocks the wind out of you are a little bit. And what that made me think about is that part of the illusion of movies and the way they work is that the people in them are very charismatic, right? They're very charming. But we assume that they're also kind of nice people because of the way they appear on the screen. We think of them as, you know, fellow humans, but of course, they're, you know, off screen. There are all kinds of different kinds of people. You know, as was proven about seven years after this movie came out, with the whole Woody Allen thing that started.

Mike (12:10)

I think the reverse is also true. So I'm going to bring in my moment, which is when Danny Aiello finds them together and charges the actual character, Tom Baxter from the Purple Rose of Pirates, and they get into a fistfight. It's just so great for so many reasons, not the least of which is that if you think about who Danny Aiello typically plays in the movies, or you think about him from Moonstruck, which we just did, the opposite is also true. And so anybody. The magic of the movies is anybody can be anybody. And he kind of took this kind of like. I mean, he plays a gangster in some movies. In some movies he plays a tough guy, and in some movies, he plays kind of a soft, fuddy duddy type.

Dan (12:51)

Character, but he never plays the romantic lead.

Mike (12:53)

Never. And so it's interesting. Like, you remember when we read Stoner together, and the one complaint people had about Stoner is how awful Stoner's wife is, is that she's a crazy exaggeration, but she's pitch perfect. And I think Danny Aiello, you just can't say enough about how much his character actually makes the movie work because her life has to be wretched or the movie doesn't. It doesn't really work in the same way. It can't be just that she's frustrated by her boss or she's late to work or something, and that's why she needs to escape into the movies. You need a burning urge. Yeah, to leave. And Danny Aiello, the actor could be anybody. I don't know him. I mean, he's. We're from the same part of the world, but, like, nobody I know knew him.

Dan (13:36)

He wrote a memoir, like, 10 years ago, for all I know. He's the nicest, sweetest, you know, lovable.

Mike (13:39)

Teddy bear, but he's the most believable. A drunk, cheating, belligerent husband for 90 minutes that. That he could possibly be. And, of course, the movie itself is telling you he could be anybody. And. But it never ruins the illusion. It's just. It's. It's literally like pulling a rabbit out of a hat. It's just magic. It's just like, actors are not characters. But let me show you a character, and you're going to believe exactly who.

Dan (14:03)

They are, and you're going to believe it so well that you almost can't imagine Danny Aiella just hanging around his house or just being a normal guy with his kids. It's like when we did. Remember we did Blowout, and we were. We had a conversation about Dennis Franz, and we're like. Like, you can't imagine someone sleazier than him in that movie. He's. He's so good. Now, for all we know about Dennis Franz, when he goes off, who knows, right? That's like the converse of what I said, Right. You think that somebody's really nice in real life because they're charming on the screen. That might not be the case. But you also think that somebody's terrible, maybe in real life because they're so sleazy on the screen.

Mike (14:34)

Nobody who never changes their look is able to change their character so much. There's just so much in contemporary Hollywood, especially with all these fake biopics we've complained about, about people putting on prosthetic noses to play whoever, Gucci's wife or whatever. But Danny Aiello looks the same in every. You could watch Leon the Professional, and then you could watch Moonstruck, and then you could watch do the Right Thing, and then you could watch this movie, but it wouldn't occur to you within a second that it's exactly the same guy, even though he looks the same. He looked the same for about 35 years.

Dan (15:06)

Yeah. And that's the power of movies. That's the power of the illusion.

Mike (15:09)

Right.

Dan (15:13)

Welcome back. So in Part three, we always talk about the title or the ending. Mike, what do you got?

Mike (15:17)

You can't get away from this movie without talking about the ending. So obviously, in the choice between fantasy and reality, she chooses reality.

Dan (15:25)

Well, it's chosen for her, as you've.

Mike (15:27)

Said in your scene that you picked. Ultimately, the actual actor goes back to Hollywood without her. Right? She shows up with her bags and her ukulele. Nobody's meeting outside the theater, and the whole phenomenon is gone. She goes back to her. She leaves her husband. She goes back to her depressing life. It's getting even more. Even more. Even more depressing than it was until. What happens?

Dan (15:49)

She watches Fred Astaire.

Mike (15:50)

She watches Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers singing Cheek to Cheek. And that's why I think all the movie scenes in this movie work. Because ultimately, it's like a joke that takes two minutes. The punchline takes two minutes, but it takes 86 minutes to set up, which is, no matter how depressed you are, no matter how destroyed you are, if you allow me to emotionally manipulate you, I'm gonna paint you into exactly the corner I want you to. And then I want to do that only so you can experience this two minutes of another movie the same way that I experience it. And there's something beautiful and redeeming about that, Right? That redeeming in the literal sense, like that two minutes buys back the whole movie through all of its manipulations and all of its gags and all of its whatever. And so there's no parody of something that I can think of that's made with more love than Woody Allen's parody of screwball comedy. It's even better than, you know, like, he loves them better than, say, Mel Brooks loves the original Frankenstein movies or something that. Or Monty Python loves Arthurian legend. There's something extra and really redemptive about watching Fred Astaire glide. And that's why she smiles. And it's just as good as Sullivan's Travels.

Dan (17:09)

All right, now you just did it again. Because what I was going to say when you jumped on Redemptive and in one of my notes is that, of course, in Sullivan's Travels, at the end, you may remember that when Joel McCray is on the Chain Gang and he's with all the prisoners and they go to watch the Mickey Mouse cartoon and the really, really famous scene, where do they see the movie where Are they sitting when they see the movie in a church? In a church, right. And that's a big thing. We talked about how, like, you know, it's a holy place. A movie theater is like a holy place. So that's what happens to her. She smiles at the end, but one great thing is that it's not a big grin. It's like a small. It takes a long time for her to get drawn into it, but then she finally does. But that's exactly what you said. Redemptive. Because at the end of Sullivan's Travels, the joke is that the theater is like a church. It's a place where you go for solace. It's a place where you go for answers about what the world should be like. And she knows what the world is like. You have a broken ukulele, the guy's not showing up. You're stuck there. Right. What should the world be like? It should be like watching, you know, Fred Astaire. It should be like a screwball comedy.

Mike (18:08)

But I think the point is that it's real. You don't go to church for something fake. And so while Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers are not lovers, they're dancing together and they're singing together and they're making beautiful music together. The experience of watching the movie, the whole point of Purple Rose of Cairo is to set you up so that you can have a real moment. And then Woody Allen seems to say, go back to your life, but you tell me what's real.

Dan (18:33)

Yeah, it's a quasi religious moment. Right? Like, she has kind of like this kind of religious epiphany there, sitting in there. Because everything in the real world is broken. Remember what she keeps doing in the diner? Why does she keep getting yelled at in the diner? She keeps dropping plates and she keeps. I'm sorry, I'll pay for it. I'll pay for it. So like Bob Dylan said, everything is broken. But the place where everything isn't broken.

Mike (18:52)

Of course, is in the world of art and heaven. I'm in heaven.

Dan (18:56)

Oh, and my heart beats so that I can hardly speak. Excellent. So thanks for listening, everybody. We hope you enjoyed our conversation about the Purple Rose of Cairo. Follow us on letterboxd. Also follow us on Substack. You can follow me at pagesandframes. And, Mike, where can people find you on Substack?

Mike (19:10)

The Grumblers Almanac, which will return this month.

Dan (19:13)

Thanks for listening, everybody.

Mike (19:14)

We'll see you next time.