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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the new books network. He comes down this elevator and he's, he's walking out and then this just faint smile comes to his face, very faint. Sean Penn, Jack o'.
- [00:24]
B
Brien.
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A
And it's like, I believe everything's gonna be alright is with us. This is not the end, which I think is the ultimate theodicy.
- [00:38]
B
Today I talk with Pastor Brian Zond about his favorite movie of all time, the Tree of Life by Terrence Malick. The whole movie is a prayer, says Pastor Brian. And I love this movie too. And I love talking with Pastor Brian who's about as Catholic as a Protestant minister can be on Almost Good Catholics.
- [00:54]
A
And if you can believe those two things, God is with us and this is not the end, then you can smile a little bit even in the midst of, of that which is present grief and sorrow.
- [01:17]
B
All right. Hello and welcome to Almost Good Catholics, a conversation about theology and apologetics. I'm your host, Chris Odinius and I get to ask interesting people, interesting questions. Together we search for the truth. I hope we have a great time doing it today. My guest is Pastor Brian Zahnd. He is the founder and lead pastor of Word of Life Church in St. Joseph, Missouri. He is also a pastor theologian who has authored 11 books including Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God, When Everything's on Fire, the Wood between the Worlds, bunch of others. He and I talked about the Wood between the Worlds about two years, not quite two years ago and we actually ended up talking a bit about his Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God at that time. And then toward the end of 2024, we talked about a hidden the story of Franz Jaeger Steiter, a martyr in the Austrian occupied, sorry, the German occupied Austria of World War II. And at that time we said we're totally going to talk about a tree of Life. And so the time is finally here. So I'm so glad to welcome him back for the third time on the show. Pastor Brian, welcome.
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A
Thank you, Chris. We are going to talk about my all time, all time favorite movie, all time.
- [02:33]
B
It's a big deal. There is no movie, there's no movie like it. I have a silly joke and it is about dinosaurs because the movie has dinosaurs in it. It's not about dinosaurs. It has dinosaurs in it. But my joke is meant to reveal how little we know. So went to the museum, had a tour from the guy at the Museum of Natural History. We're looking at the sky skeleton of a great, of a great reptilian giant. And you know he says, so then this dinosaur, sir, is 65 million and 12 years old. And I say, Whoa, whoa, buddy. 65 million and 12? How can you be so precise? And he said, well, I'll tell you, because I started working here 12 years ago. And at that time they said this was 65 million years old.
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A
There you go. It's math.
- [03:28]
B
So amazing movie. Terrence Malick, your favorite director. I think it's unlike any other movie you've ever seen. If you haven't seen it, stop right now, go see it, come back and, and let's take it from there. How should we describe it as we get going?
- [03:46]
A
It is an art film that at its core is an attempt at the Odyssey, and I think as successful as any attempt at the Odyssey I've ever seen. It's deeply Christian, it's profoundly theological. It is an art film. So, you know, it's not. It's non linear. I saw it at an art theater right as it came out, 2011. I had heard buzz about it, so that's why I made the effort to go see it. I was so stunned that I took our entire pastoral staff the next day. I said, we're going on a field trip. And I took him to the theater. And I have. This is not an exaggeration, Chris. I've watched this movie 40 times.
- [04:37]
B
Wow.
- [04:37]
A
I mean, I really know it. So I don't know that you can describe it. I know it does frustrate people because it doesn't follow a simple linear plot. It's kind of bouncing around. But once you explain it to people, what's going on, show them what's happening, then I think it is accessible. I showed it at our church one. I think it was a Sunday evening years ago because people had heard me rave about this and I quote it in my books and it shows up sometimes in my sermons. But they, they get frustrated with it. They can't quite understand it. And so I literally showed it in our sanctuary on our big screen. And I was on the front row with a, with a microphone, just sort of whispering, trying to point out and explain what's going on. So, yeah, I'm very passionate about this film.
- [05:28]
B
Yeah, well, yeah, there's a, there's a lot I want to say, but let's begin by saying it follows a family. Brad Pitt is the father. He has recently.
- [05:39]
A
So it's, it's, it's. It may be obscure, but it stars Brad Pitt, Sean Penn, Jessica Chastain. So these are a plus list actors.
- [05:50]
B
Yeah. So you can always say hey, you want to see a Brad Pitt movie? And people's like, okay. They'll be surprised. And Sean, Brad Pitt is the father. I think his name is Mr. O'. Brien. His wife is Jessica Chastain. Mrs. O'. Brien. They have three sons.
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A
One son doesn't really play much of
- [06:06]
B
a role, but, yeah, the youngest one we barely see, our central figure is the oldest son. And we see him again as an adult played by Sean Penn. His younger brother dies. Not in the movie. Right. This is sort of like. At first I thought he died as a child because he appears in this ending sequence as a child. But no, he dies as a young.
- [06:25]
A
Dies at age 19. We can actually. We actually know that he dies at 19. Presumably, you're not told this, but you just assume it's in Vietnam. It fits the time frame. And that's what I've. And, you know, there's this telegram that's delivered to her, and so I assume it was that he died in Vietnam.
- [06:48]
B
I never put that together. That. That makes sense. If that were the case, I feel the telegram wouldn't be a telegram. I feel like a guy would show up.
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A
Yeah. Who knows? You know, who knows how all of those things were done at that time? But. Yeah.
- [07:02]
B
Yeah, I. Okay. But a guy comes in, I think the uniform. He's wearing those. A telegraph.
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A
Yeah.
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B
It's uniform, not okay. So maybe.
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A
I never thought it might not be the case. I don't know. It's. It's. It's left a mystery. He dies at night.
- [07:16]
B
Right. And there's death. Right. The Lord giveth. The Lord taketh away. Her mother, played by the amazing Fiona Shaw, who I know from Andor. And other things, like trying to comfort her. You always have two more children. Don't worry, honey. Like all the ridiculous things people try to do. So. And it begins with Job.
- [07:33]
A
Yeah. The. We could say the film has an epigraph, or we could say the sermon has a text. Because in many ways, it is this magnificent sermon. I've got it right in front of me here. It's from job 38. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy. And, of course, this is the initial response to Job, who gets what everybody wants but no one else gets. That is when we are overwhelmed with sorrow and grief and a sense of why has this happened? And we want God to come and respond. Well, in this. In the story of Job, that actually happens, although an answer is not given.
- [08:22]
B
A response is given, but it doesn't answer the question.
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A
Right, but the film doesn't. Even though it has an epigraph from Job, it's not just working with Job, because then it's going to back up to Genesis and it's going to take us all the way to Revelation. So really it gives the kind of answer more Christian in a more Christian, expansive way than the book of Job does or could.
- [08:51]
B
Yeah, totally agree. Also, the. The boy, the oldest boy there, his name is Jack o'. Brien. So I saw somebody pointed out. I forgot where I read this, that that is J, O, B.
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A
Come on now. I've watched it all these times and now I. Dang.
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B
Ah, good. We've learned something.
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A
And I wish I. That's great. I love that. Yeah.
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B
And I think the answer is God is with you all the time. And I feel God there in. You know, because it's called the Tree of Life, and they live in this shaded neighborhood in Waco where there's these enormous. Which is where he grew up. Yeah. So it's autobiography.
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A
I mean, I think he's just working on his memories of as. As a child, I suppose, or something like that.
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B
I suppose. Right. The first true thing, you know, is Hemingway, what have you. But there's trees everywhere, and every time you look up, the wind is rustling, the sun is behind the. Right behind the leaves. And so I think that's God. Like, here I am.
- [09:55]
A
Yeah. As in all Terence Malik movies. The cinematography is just gorgeous. I mean, just to look at it, it is a beautiful film. I'm not. I don't. Yes. The story, the message, all that's beautiful. But I mean, just the. The look is beautiful.
- [10:09]
B
Yeah. Every frame could be, you know, a masterful photograph. So. And then the other thing is nature. Right. We begin with a dichotomy that the mother puts forth. There's the way of nature, the way of grace. And in her. In her telling, nature's kind of the negative one, I would say. Whereas we don't have that idea.
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A
Can I just read that passage?
- [10:35]
B
Yeah. Would you, please? Yes.
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A
So. Well, we.
- [10:38]
B
Yeah.
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A
So it's. The movie is a prayer. I mean, the opening line is you. You hear Jack o' Brien in middle age, this Sean Penn, and it's clearly a prayer. So this is addressed to God, brother, mother. It was they that led me to your door. So one of the storylines, because there is actually a storyline, it's. It's faint, but it's there in the film, is Jack in midlife, returning to God. And then. And Then he's recalling. The reason the movie's non linear is because it's Jack's memories. So some of it's 1950s or maybe even late 40s Waco. Some of it's 1960s, some of its present day. But at one point you HEAR his mother, Mrs. O', Brien, as a, well, a relatively young mother, say this. And it takes like two minutes. I'll just read it. But in the movie it takes like two minutes.
- [11:44]
B
Yeah.
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A
The nuns taught us that there are two ways through life. The way of nature and the way of grace. You have to choose which one you will follow. Grace doesn't try to please itself. Accepts being slighted, forgotten, disliked, accepts insults and injuries. Nature only wants to please itself, get others to please it too. Likes to lord it over them. To have its own way. It finds reasons to be unhappy when all the world is shining around it. When love is smiling through all things. They taught us that no one who loves the way of grace ever comes to a bad end. I will be true to you, whatever comes. And then the next thing is. It comes that telegram. I. I will be true to you, whatever comes. And then the telegram comes and you see her sorrow and grief. There's. There's the funeral. You get just snippets of all of this. And then there's this moment when she's praying a very familiar prayer to all of us. Lord, why, where were you? Did you know? Who are we to you? Answer me. And that's. I know, I'm just taking over here. That, that, that's when, that's when it goes into this 17 minute sequence that takes you literally from the moment of creation, the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago, to the formation of the Earth four and a half billion years ago, to the rise of life and dinosaurs. Yes, there are dinosaurs in this movie. And then the asteroid. That brings the era of the dinosaurs to 65 million and 12 years ago. And, and then it. And then it brings you right up to 1950s Waco, Texas. And that's when it slows down.
- [13:40]
B
Yeah. And I think we had to say that the, the way of nature, the way of grace. Because I'm very sympathetic to her. I wish I were more like she is. So does Jack. We all wish we were walking in grace and less into our own self interest. Poor Brad Pitt is plagued the whole career. He feels like he's not seen, not respected, not getting the recognition he deserves as this, you know, engineer. He's always combative. He's trying to.
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A
He's A talented musician that didn't follow his muse. You know, he was responsible and got a responsible job, but he's actually a talented organist. And so there's that frustration, too.
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B
Right. And so he's.
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A
He.
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B
I think he's the way of nature. She's the way of grace. At least that's how.
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A
But he's not. He's the way of nature. But. But don't cast him. He's not as like a villain or a bad person in the movie, because he's not. But he is the way.
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B
But I wanted to say that I don't like that about myself. Yeah, right. That's that. That struggling, ambitious, clawing. Why are, you know, why not getting this publication, that recognition, this, you know, whatever it is where she. She's.
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A
When we, when we become that way, Chris, we find ways to be unhappy when all the world is shining around us. Yeah, I mean, that. That line. We find ways to be unhappy.
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B
But at the same time, in the same movie, in the same movie, nature is sort of this symphony at all times from the rustling leaf, the cosmos. Yeah. What is nature?
- [15:19]
A
I think. I think Terence Malik is using the word nature in that monologue in the same way that the apostle Paul uses the word flesh. And that is a propensity toward the beastly, to not rise above animal instinct and become fully human. Yeah, spirit. So nature isn't bad, but, you know, it's where we come from. But we have a higher calling. And so for beasts to behave beastly, we don't chide the lions on the savannah for acting beastly. That's who they are. We have shared origins, at least in an animal nature, but we're called to rise above it.
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B
But there's also this interesting part where that meteorite strikes the earth and we hear the choirs of. You know, the soundtrack is. It's all funerary music. It's very vocal and it's. You know, you can hear the. The choirs singing as this meteorite comes and destroys the whole dinosaur world that we have taken over after. And it's beautiful. And even the death of something is
- [16:38]
A
beautiful because it gave the warm blooded a chance. I mean, we would. We wouldn't be here if we had to run the gauntlet of T. Rexes, would.
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B
That is for sure. Yeah. But there. There are a lot of things in there. Like, there's a. There's a striped water snake. There's all kinds of things that I'm afraid of, but when you look at them with a little detachment, and I think that's the part of Job where he speaks from the whirlwind, as you were saying, and says, you know, what about the Leviathan? What about the scales? What about the behemoth? What about the. Can you. Can you.
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A
You know, there's that line in Job where it says, lay your hand upon. I'm paraphrasing. Lay your hand upon the Leviathan. Remember the fight. You will not do it again.
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B
Yeah. And there's a Quaker, his name is Jim Corbett, who wrote a book called Goat Walking. And in it he has this sort of book of Job part where he says, like God knows how sweet dead fleshes in a buzzard's beat, you know, that sort of thing. Whereas something I find disgusting and repulsive. God knows how delightful that is to the vulture. Right. And so I have this sense that the things that I. I don't know how to say this. It's almost like a Taoist thing. I'm floating in the river. Just take.
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A
Everything has its place, Everything belongs.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Let go and say everything belongs. Maybe some things don't belong. The cancer cells belong. Do nuclear bombs belong? I don't think they don't.
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B
Right. Well, that meteorite belongs.
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A
Yeah. You know, I mean, it is. It does. Yeah, it does.
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B
And the, you know, the, the T. Rex and the teeth of the. So I find that interesting. And the other thing I found is their houses in this movie are almost like doll houses to me. They are pristine. There isn't. Doesn't look like a family with three boys. If you look in my house, if you look behind me, I raised three
- [18:33]
A
boys, so I know.
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B
Yeah, right. There's somebody left a half finished school project and somebody left the mail and somebody left a ball.
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A
Mr. O' Brien isn't going to put up with much of that though, either.
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B
Yeah, but even, even, even Jack is the architect. Everything feels, you know, you know, geometric and empty. And so in my life, when I. When I feel stress, it's because I've made a mess. But if I go to the forest, all the leaves are a mess too. But that doesn't bother me. I feel at peace walking around in a forest littered with leaves. Should that be something I take away, that whatever God has made is fine? Whatever I do actually could be quite stressful. Or is that a no?
- [19:15]
A
I think so. I mean, what's wrong with the world is the human element. I mean, zebras are good at being zebras and giraffes are good at being giraffes. Humans are still trying to figure out how to be human. And it has to do with our lofty calling. You know, we're called to bear the image of God. We're to become like God. The, the, the temptation in the wilderness, in the garden was not, you'll become like God. That's the promise. I mean, that was the original. Tell us. Let us create humankind in our likeness. Be like us. The temptation was more subtle because, you know, the, the serpent was more subtle than the beast of the field. The temptation was to become like God, apart from God. To become like God through knowledge alone, we might say it today, to become like God through technology alone. And that's where we have experienced what we might call the fall or the departure, the wrong trajectory, the. The harmony where we're off. Yeah. So. Yeah. So humans are still in. In the business of becoming what they are intended to be. And along the way, it's pretty messy.
- [20:28]
B
Boy, you said it. And I think that's exactly what we. Well, I mean, it's not just, oh, here we are, it's AI and this and that. And I think this is true of the Tower of Babel as well, is we're trying to. We're trying to make things well. And that's why it's called the Tree of Life, right? Because there's a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and then there's the Tree of Life. We have not eaten from the Tree of Life, have we?
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A
We haven't, because the Tree of Life has to do with immortality and resurrection. And so that. And I'm just working with the story there in Genesis, that the angel with the flaming sword prevented humanity from re entering the garden. And partaking of the Tree of Life is actually a mercy. So God refuses to allow us to exist eternally in our altered trajectory away from the true telos, to actually become like God. And so in that sense, death is. Is a mercy, but we still have the promise of resurrection and a true immortality. And you know, at the end, at the end of the Bible, in the Book of Revelation, you find the Tree of Life, that it's there. So we're going to get to it. We just can't get to it quite yet. We can't get to it. Apart from death, I guess I would say it that way. We have to go through death to reach the Tree of Life. That's the main trajectory of the movie, is you're going to go through death, but death is not the end.
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B
Yeah, okay, so there's two different. Before we get to that, can I ask you, are we the only Creature that is on this trajectory of making mistakes and growing zebras are not angels, I presume. Are not right? Are we the only ones?
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A
Close your eyes, exhale. Feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.
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B
1-800-contacts.
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A
I saw this app. I got a hit.
- [22:51]
B
In the new limited series, DTF St. Louis, Jason Bateman, David Harbour and Linda
- [22:55]
A
Cardellini star as three suburbanites who spice
- [22:57]
B
up their love lives.
- [22:58]
A
Wow.
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B
Don't miss the new HBO Original Limited Series, DTF St. Louis, Sundays at 9 on HBO Max. To realize the future America needs, we understand what's needed from us to face each threat head on. We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines. We were made for this. How many discounts does USAA Auto Insurance offer? Too many to say here.
- [23:23]
A
Multi vehicle discount, Safe driver discount, New vehicle discount, Storage discount.
- [23:28]
B
How many discounts will you stack up?
- [23:29]
A
Tap the banner or visit usaa.com autodiscounts restrictions apply. Seems so. I. I don't know. It depends on how you might understand the demonic.
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B
Yeah, but they're not interested in anything except for. Well, who knows?
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A
Who knows?
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B
I'm not going to speak. I'm not going to speak for those guys. But I do, I do think the, the design, the fear of living forever without God is exactly what a vampire is in all the stories, you know, and the like Bram Stoker and stuff like that. How.
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A
I agree.
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B
Okay, then let's go on to the thing you were about to say, which I've already forgotten, but it sounded very interesting. What were we just about to say?
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A
I've lost track now.
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B
Something about like, go going through death, right? Going through death to the tree of.
- [24:13]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, because I think I said it. But I mean, if you want. If you want to. Maybe, maybe so. So let me take our listeners, viewers, okay, to the end of the movie. So Jack and Midlife, as this architect is returning back to God and he has a vision of the distant future, the very distant future, when the sun will become a red giant 5 billion years from now and then collapse down to A white dwarf. And. And the earth is no more. You actually. You actually see in the film that the earth is sort of just like a mote of dust. It's just. It's gone. And then Jack whispers a prayer. Keep us. Guide us till the end of time. And then comes the best part of the whole film. We are giving an artistic vision of resurrection. The music is on your day. Lamb of God. You hear it sung in Latin. Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world. Have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world. Grant us peace. And while this gorgeous music is playing, you see resurrection artistically depicted. You see the dead rise from their graves. You see families reunited and reconciled. You see old bodies become young again. People appear in all their different ages, which is very interesting. Masks fall off, literally. Remember, there's that moment where the mask falls off and a new world is born as a chorus of amens is sung. But that's not really the end of the movie. It's sort of the climactic moment. And. And Jack experiences reunion with his brother that he lost at 19. Although you seem at what we saw him throughout the movie, which is like maybe 10, 11, 12.
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B
And that must be just for us because we've only seen him at that age, so we wouldn't.
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A
So if we. Yeah, if he appears at 19, we wouldn't recognize who this character is. But then in one sense, you think, okay, that's, that's the. No, it's not the end. Then we're back with Jack o' Brien in present day, either Houston or Dallas. I think actually Terence Malik took shots from both of them, so we couldn't just locate it somewhere in Texas. And a faint smile comes. I mean, he. He comes down this elevator and he's. He's walking out and then this just faint smile comes to his face. Very faint. Sean Penn, Jack o'. Brien. And it's like, I believe everything's going to be all right. God is with us. This is not the end. Which I think is the ultimate theodicy, that if free will allows anything to happen, much of which is awful, God does not exempt himself from the phenomenon of suffering because God in Christ shares it fully with us. Okay, that's. That's one aspect. God is with us, but the other aspect of theodicy is, hey, people, this is not the end. We're still in the middle of the story. And the story that the Christian gospel tells is an end when all things are made new. And, and if you can believe Those two things. God is with us, and this is not the end. Then you can smile a little bit even in the midst of, of that which is present grief and sorrow.
- [27:50]
B
That is good news.
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A
That's why I've watched this thing 40 times. I mean, I don't watch it to, you know, get it. I've pretty much got it at this point. Mostly I watch it because it's, it's soothing. It's good for my soul.
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B
Oh, I totally agree.
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A
It's. It's like a spiritual practice.
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B
Yeah. And every time I walk away from it, I just start to see leaves in the wind, you know, at all times.
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A
I don't know how many times I've just. It's like I just say it now. I don't even. I mean, if I'm writing it, I will cite it, but I'll say all the time, no one who loves the way of grace ever comes to a bad end. You know, and that's, that's just a, that's a line from Terence Malick, who also wrote it. You know, these, these Terrence Malick films, they're his. I mean, his method apparently is he shoots an insane amount of footage hours and hours and hours and hours and hours. And then he disappears into his editing suite and says, okay, what do I got here? How do I turn this into a film? I've heard interviews from Sean Penn in particular, who said, I had no idea what this movie was about. You know, I had my scenes, I had my lines, I had to go to the theater to have any kind of idea what this film was about. Because I don't think at that point Terrence Malik knew exactly what it was going to be. He has, he has all this raw footage.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And so you think about those scenes with the little baby. Well, you can't direct a baby, you know, and so you just get what you get and you work it in however you want to work it in. Or all the shots of nature, of the birds and the, the starlings and all of their, whatever they call that. Those.
- [29:35]
B
Right. That was astounding. And so much of it is just a serendipity because if he's filming hours and hours and hours, and a lot of it is handheld. Right. There's no, there's no big crew. There's like probably two guys in a camera just following you around as you're a 10 year old kid running through some backyards in, in Texas.
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A
And, and let's not forget the music score all the way through. All the music is just Gorgeous. Just.
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B
Yeah. Yeah. So we follow. We follow the life of Jack from. From his conception, actually, from his parent. From when his parents were kids, or at least his mom was a child on a farm with her dad, you know, with the cattle and stuff.
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A
Had a graduation present of going up in a biplane, you know.
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B
In a biplane. Right. So that would have been, you know, the first half of the 20th century. She falls in love with Brad Pitt. The. The child is. Is, you know, conceived and born. Then, you know, there's. Then his brother arrives and so on, and there's first jealousies.
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A
Yeah. You see the sibling rivalry and how that emerges. The emergency. Keep going. The emergence of sin. Of sin.
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B
But at some point, like sin, sin enters also. And the dissatisfaction of his father with him, or maybe the dissatisfaction that Brad Pitt feels in his own skin with how his life has gone. And he's trying to toughen up his boys and get them to, like,
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A
never see Mr. O', Brien, the father in present time. But there are. But there are references to him. Because you see Jack on the phone talking with his father, and there's a kind of reconciliation. And, you know, he's apologizing.
- [31:21]
B
Apologizes to his dad. Yeah, but that is very interesting. There, you know, there is a part toward the end where the father sort of softens a little and apologizes, and his son says, you know, I'm probably more like you than I am like our mother. And there's an awareness that he made his son feel shame.
- [31:41]
A
It's a tender movie.
- [31:42]
B
It's a tender. Yeah, because we're all like. At least I'm like that. I have, you know, moments of regrets, like, why'd I do that? Why'd I do that? You know, I suppose every father, some more than others, you know, regret the mistakes they made with their kids because they're not going to be little again.
- [31:59]
A
I stress to people how Christian this movie is. It's like. I mean, they pray over meals, they go to church, you see baptisms, you see confirmation, you hear sermons. And of course, the sermon is from the Book of Job.
- [32:16]
B
Yeah, that's a great point. Then there's a moment where his father goes away on a trip, and then Jack kind of runs amok, and he and the neighborhood boys start throwing rocks through windows and they shoot a frog off, you know, fireworks, stuff like that. And he's. Yeah, and he steals, you know, a night crown from the neighbor lady. Like he's really misbehaving. And so there's an interesting.
- [32:42]
A
Yeah, he's exploring. I don't know the world of sin, but he doesn't love it.
- [32:49]
B
He.
- [32:49]
A
He's conflicted on why do I have to be bad? And there's. It almost quotes right out of Romans 7. So. So much of this movie is a prayer. People are always.
- [32:59]
B
Yes, yes.
- [33:01]
A
And, you know, I do what I hate. I. I don't do what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
- [33:07]
B
Yeah. And he says to his mother, I can't talk to you. Don't look at me. Yeah, you know, that's a great line, too. So I lost my thought.
- [33:17]
A
Well, we experience. There's that whole fairly rapid series of scenes where the boys and especially Jack are becoming. They're losing their innocence. And they see an epileptic. They see people that have been burned in a house fire. They experience the death of a schoolmate who drowns. And, you know, they. They're kind of leaving that world of innocence where they don't really know that really awful things can happen in this life. And so there is that moment too. That's pretty significant.
- [33:52]
B
Yeah. And that is also their father's agenda to toughen up. Don't be too good. Don't be naive.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah. After they leave church, where he's played the organ, you know, and he's pointing out the. The mansions and who lives there. And, you know, I'll tell you what, he didn't get there by, by being nice to everybody. You got to grab what's yours. You got to be tough. You gotta. You know, it's the way of nature. So it's just, you know, it's so real. But the, The. The juxtaposition of just leaving church and now we're gonna. He's gonna preach his sermon kind of unwittingly.
- [34:30]
B
That's a great.
- [34:31]
A
Now I'm going to preach to you that you've heard the way of grace. Now I'm going to preach to you the way of nature. Not that he'. But that's how it happened.
- [34:38]
B
And he, He. There's play fighting and he is a total. At dinner time. He's kind of a tyrant.
- [34:44]
A
Yeah. That dinner scene where he loses his temper, that's. That's. You're very uncomfortable with that. And that's when the. The middle son.
- [34:57]
B
Yes.
- [34:57]
A
Quiet.
- [34:59]
B
Yeah. And he says it's so soft. Yeah. Yeah.
- [35:03]
A
And he's the. He's the angelic one in the movie. That and Jessica Chastain, the mother. But he sort of calls his dad out on this. You know, you're being a tyrant, but you're the one that's running your mouth here at the table. Be quiet.
- [35:18]
B
Yeah.
- [35:18]
A
And you knew that was not going to go over well. And it didn't.
- [35:22]
B
It did not. And I feel that that second son looks more like Brad Pitt, the actor. That second son plays guitar. The thing that his father really appreciates. They have this lovely duet with the father at the piano and the second son at the guitar. That makes our protagonist Jack, very jealous. You know why?
- [35:45]
A
Yeah. He's not the musician that his father is and his younger brother is.
- [35:49]
B
Yeah. And that's Cain and Abel. Your. Your offering is rejected. You're out. You're. And so then he starts punishing his brother.
- [35:58]
A
It's astounding how biblically informed the Tree of Life is.
- [36:03]
B
Yeah.
- [36:05]
A
The movie that could launch a thousand Bible studies.
- [36:09]
B
A hundred percent. Can we just say, like, good or bad? Good. Bad or ugly? I always feel the presence of the Holy Spirit. And I feel like I'm walking down this path holding hands with God. Therefore, be not afraid. Or is there something that I should, you know, like three actionable points that I should take away from the Sermon of Terence.
- [36:32]
A
I don't like to do that.
- [36:33]
B
Not.
- [36:33]
A
Not with art, because when the day is done, this is art. But I think sermon in its best form, and it rarely rises to that. But sermon in its best form is an artistic enterprise that it is not lecture. Lecture has its place. And. And it's not just simply an exposition or giving a teaching. It is artistry in the genre of storytelling. And that's why I think of the Tree of Life is just like one of the best sermons I've ever encountered in my life.
- [37:09]
B
And what is your goal? You give a sermon every week.
- [37:11]
A
I have written 3985 sermons. Getting close to 4000 sermons.
- [37:18]
B
Good golly.
- [37:19]
A
Over. Over 44 years. I have over 4 million words of sermon notes. So, yes, I have written sermons.
- [37:27]
B
And how do you know if you've done a really good job or if you've done a less than good job?
- [37:33]
A
If it can come out in the form of. Of a story where Jesus is the hero, that's a good sermon. And so that's what I aim at.
- [37:44]
B
Something that.
- [37:45]
A
That. That feels like a story. And. But it's not my story. I might be part of it, but where Jesus is always the hero. I. I mean, in your introduction, you said, I've written 11 books. I've actually written 12. The 12th one comes out in May.
- [38:02]
B
Your website is behind, sorry,
- [38:07]
A
Unseen Existences of Heaven, Earth and. And the Divine Mystery and all things. That's. It's finished, it's done. It's, you know, just waiting to come out in May. But I'm working on book 13, and it is having to do with the story working title. It'll probably change, but right now it's just Lord of the story. And the idea is that all of the great epics, all of the great myths, are ultimately trying to tell the true epic and the true myth of the story of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So, anyway, that's all just kind of riffing on. One of the things I think is so beautiful about the Tree of Life. It is. It's sermon in its best form, and that is in storytelling.
- [38:50]
B
Well, we are made for stories. Oh, yeah. No, no, no.
- [38:53]
A
We are made for stories.
- [38:56]
B
Yeah.
- [38:57]
A
Here. So preaching for 44 years. Here's a little insider tip. Here's a secret I'll let out. You would be surprised how many times I have been told I've preached a very good sermon when all I really did was tell a Bible story in a fairly creative way. Well, presented a Bible story that they already know. They've heard it a hundred times. They know how it begins. They know what happens in the middle, they know what happens at the end, but they want to hear it again. See, that's the power of story.
- [39:35]
B
That's who we are. Yeah. That's wonderful. I'm afraid this bell is going to ring. I wonder if you would close us with a prayer or any last thoughts before that?
- [39:49]
A
I really enjoyed this. I mean, I do lots of podcasts, but they tend to be on my books, which is fine. That's great. But I love doing this one.
- [39:55]
B
Yeah. Well, what do you want to do next, by the way? Like, shall I try you again in May when your book comes out, or you want to talk about another Terrence Malick film?
- [40:03]
A
Well, you know, there's. Allegedly. He's got one more in him. I mean, he's been editing it for, like, four years now. The Way of the Wind. And it's supposed to be a movie on the life of Christ. Come on, he's in his 80s. Let's finish this thing, man. Yeah, but then I also have. Yeah. We can talk if you want. If you're interested. You can. We can get you a copy of. I don't have a copy. It is not printed yet. But Unseen Existences.
- [40:30]
B
I'll ask your publisher that can send me a piece.
- [40:33]
A
They will, they will.
- [40:34]
B
That would be lovely. All right. Pastor Brian's on. Thank you so much. Would you close us in a prayer.
- [40:40]
A
Yes, Father. God, we thank you for the love for the world revealed in your son, Jesus Christ. You so love the world that you gave a Savior of the world in the midst of pain and sorrow and loss and grief and suffering. Help us to remember these two things. We're not alone. You're with us. And this is not the end. The end is all things made new. The end is new creation. May that bring peace into our souls. In Jesus name we pray. Amen.
- [41:17]
B
Amen. Amen. Amen. Chris of Din's and Pastor Brian Zahn recorded this conversation. Episode 112 on January 20, 2026. That was the feast day of St. Sebastian. He's a third century Roman martyr. He was a soldier and he was pierced with arrows. And until I started reading about it, I thought that's how he died. But no, he survived that. Nursed back to Health by St. Irene of Rome. But then immediately he went back to the Emperor Diocletian and warned him about his sins. And then he was clubbed to death and thrown into the sewers of Rome. So St. Sebastian, pray for us. St. Irene, pray for us. Our music is from Josh and Margaux of the Great Space Coaster Band. Check them out@www.GSCoasterBand.com. and our logo, the image of the dog is from a stained glass window in Spain. It's taken with the kind permission of the Dominican friars of England, Scotland and Wales from their website, www.I'm Chris Odiniec. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you next time on Almost Be Catholic.
- [42:42]
A
This is Christ the King whom shepherds God and angels sing.