Podcast Summary:

New Books Network

Episode: Thomas Albert Howard, "Broken Altars: Secularist Violence in Modern History" (Yale UP, 2025)
Host: Mouraza Hajizadeh
Guest: Dr. Thomas Albert Howard
Date: January 7, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mouraza Hajizadeh interviews Dr. Thomas Albert Howard, Professor of Humanities and History at Valparaiso University, about his latest book, Broken Altars: Secularist Violence in Modern History. The discussion explores the often-overlooked history of violence perpetrated under secularist ideologies, challenging the common narrative that secularism naturally leads to peace while religion breeds conflict. Dr. Howard introduces his typology of secularism and examines global case studies, from revolutionary France to Communist Asia, Turkey, and Eastern Europe, interrogating the complex interplay between secularism, nationalism, pluralism, and violence.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Motivation for the Book

• Howard’s Background: Modern European intellectual historian with interests in religion, modernity, and secularization, primarily in the North Atlantic West but with a global reach in this new work.

  “The idea for the book came to me actually... during the COVID crisis when many of us had more time on our hands and we were staying at home.” (03:14)

• Motivation: To counter the dominant narrative that links religion to violence while viewing secularism as inherently peaceful.

  “Given that so much has been written about religion and violence... this is a type of counterintuitive turn-the-table essay.” (03:39)

2. Challenging the Secularism–Peace Equation

• Reframing the Narrative:

  “There is something to the narrative that secularism equals peace... but I think it’s kind of over-determined and doesn’t look at the complete global picture in the 20th century.” (04:54)

• Secularist Blind Spots: The public often fails to consider the violence connected to combative and eliminationist forms of secularism.

3. Typology of Secularism

• Passive Secularism:
  • Seeks pluralism, not supporting a state church, giving religious actors social freedom.
  • Common in the US, parts of Europe, Australia, and New Zealand.
• Combative Secularism:
  • Emerges from the French Revolution, targeting religious institutions (notably the Catholic Church) through state expropriation, violence, and suppression.
• Eliminationist Secularism:
  • Born from radical Marxism-Leninism, seeks to eradicate religion as part of achieving ideological purity and social progress.

  “Combative secularism... stems from the French Revolution, especially its radical phases in the 1790s... Eliminationist secularism... more the Marxist and especially Marxist-Leninist variety...” (06:28-08:40)

4. Marx, Lenin, and Revolutionary Secularism

• Philosophical Underpinnings: Marx anticipated religion would “wither away” with material progress; Lenin and Trotsky insisted on state action to actively suppress religion.

  “Revolutionaries... realized after the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917... religious forces... were a real power. So... those like Lenin and Trotsky... felt that you really needed to be more active about that...” (10:12)

5. Nationalism and Secularist Violence

• Case Studies: Mexico, Spain, Turkey
  • The secularizing, nationalist reforms of Kemal Ataturk (Turkey) and Reza Shah (Iran) are discussed—often authoritarian, pushing religion aside through force and top-down reforms.

  “Kemal Ataturk… both his secularism and his nationalist ideology was widely copied in other Muslim states...” (12:16)

• Unexpected Consequences:
  • Pushing religion to margins sometimes prompted religious revivals or backlash, e.g., Iran’s Islamic Revolution.

  “The unintended consequence in about 50 times was the Islamic Revolution as well.” (11:22)

6. Secularism, Nationalism, and Religion Today

• Diverging Models:
  • Nationalism sometimes allied with secularism (Turkey, Albania); sometimes entwined with religion (US Christian nationalism, Franco’s Spain).

  “Nationalism is... one of the most powerful forces in the modern world... it can be deployed on the left and the right and then the religious and the secular.” (14:57)

7. Secular Universalism vs. Pluralism

• Does Secular “Universalism” Threaten Cultural (Religious) Diversity?
  • The more passive the secular state, the more it respects pluralism; combative and eliminationist forms are “homogenizing.”

  “Passive secularism historically... has been the greater respecter of pluralism...” (22:05)

8. Atheism vs. Secularism—Eastern Europe and Scientific Atheism

• Important Distinction:

  “There is an important distinction between atheism and secularism... One could be quite devout... but have a belief that the state shouldn’t really trespass into religion and vice versa.” (24:37)

• Scientific Atheism:
  • Promoted under Soviet and Eastern Bloc regimes as a state ideology, often baked into education and intellectual life.
  • Resulted in a strong ideological slant and repression, sometimes backfiring (Poland) or erasing religious memory (Albania).

  “Poland... the imposition of Soviet rule and Marxist Leninist ideology really encouraged something of a Catholic revival... Albania... such extreme scorched earth secularism that it really broke religious communities.” (27:10–29:48)

9. Red Asia—China’s Model of “Controlled” Religion

• History of Repression:
  • From the early 20th-century revolutionaries to Mao’s Cultural Revolution (1966–76), an “all-out attack” on religion.
• The Patriotic Associations:
  • Post-1980s: Five permitted religions must be registered, patriotic, and politically quiet; underground churches/communities still face repression.

  “The patriotic associations are an attempt to kind of corral religion, not do direct repression… But there’s still quite a bit of anti-religious repression in China.” (33:54)

10. Safeguarding Pluralistic, Peaceful Secularism

• Building Institutions:
  • Policy and education should nurture pluralism, appreciate religion’s social goods, and ensure protection for majority and minority faiths alike.

  “Policymakers and anyone with influence [should] try to recognize the value of cultural pluralism... there’s a role for policy and for law and justice.” (35:44)

11. Why Reckon with Secularist Violence?

• Challenge Historical Amnesia:
  • Dr. Howard seeks to rebalance discourse that vilifies religion alone and whitewashes secularist atrocities.

  “It’s too simplistic just to say that religion encourages violence and secularism is the solution. You have to qualify what kind of secularism...” (37:32)

• A Caution from History:
  • Repression, whether carried out in religious or secular terms, often seeds new forms of dissent or violence.

12. Final Reflections: Liberty and Pluralism in the Modern State

• Civic Foundations:
  • Religious liberty and pluralism are intertwined and must be protected through vigilant defense of free speech, conscience, and assembly.

  “To have pluralism, you have to have liberty of expression, liberty of conscience, freedom of assembly... you just have to be vigilant and promoting it.” (39:47)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Prevalence of Secularist Blind Spots:

  “The public mind, there is this idea that secularism equals peace and prosperity... but it’s kind of overdetermined and doesn’t look at the complete global picture.” (Host, 04:19–04:54)

• On Marxist-Leninist Suppression:

  “For… the proletariat revolution to succeed, all feudal and bourgeois remnants… needed to be done away with. And certainly religion was an important… obstacle to these ideologies.” (Howard, 08:13)

• On State Control of Religion in China:

  “Patriotic associations are an attempt to kind of corral religion, not do direct repression, make these bodies be overseen by the government.” (Howard, 34:37)

• On Violence and Historical Narratives:

  “One of the most calamitous and destructive forms of violence has come out of secularist ideologies, especially… the Marxist Leninist ones… Too simplistic just to say that religion encourages violence and secularism is the solution.” (Howard, 37:32)

• On Pluralism and Religious Liberty:

  “To have pluralism, you have to have liberty of expression, liberty of conscience, freedom of assembly... you need to be vigilant against authoritarian movements, whether they’re secularist or religious.” (Howard, 39:47)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Howard explains origins and categories of secularism — 03:14–08:40
• Host and guest discuss nationalism & secularism (Turkey, Iran, etc.) — 11:05–16:34
• Reflections on modern nationalism, religion, and secularism — 16:34–20:42
• Debate on pluralism and universalism in secular states — 20:42–24:37
• Atheism vs. secularism, and ‘scientific atheism’ in the USSR/Eastern Europe — 24:37–30:21
• China, patriotic associations, and religious policy — 30:21–35:11
• Safeguards for pluralist secularism — 35:11–36:58
• Why understanding secularist violence matters — 36:58–39:13
• Conclusions on religious liberty and pluralism — 39:13–41:01
• Next projects from Dr. Howard — 41:14–42:22

Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced historical and comparative analysis of secularism and violence, challenging comfortable Western narratives. Dr. Howard’s book and arguments provide context and caution, reminding listeners that both religious and secular ideologies have complex legacies, and neither peace nor violence belongs inherently to one side of the divide. For societies aiming for pluralism and liberty, constant vigilance, and honest reckoning with historical truths, remain essential.