Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: Thomas Princen, "Fire and Flood: Extreme Events and Social Change Past, Present, Future" (MIT Press, 2025)
Host: Michael Simpson
Guest: Dr. Thomas Princen
Date: November 29, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. Thomas Princen discussing his latest book, Fire and Flood: Extreme Events and Social Change Past, Present, Future. The conversation explores how extreme natural events like wildfires and floods act as catalysts for social change. Dr. Princen probes the limitations of conventional responses focused solely on rebuilding and resilience, advocating for an ethical, adaptive approach that emphasizes living with natural systems rather than battling or ignoring them. Drawing on detailed case studies, Dr. Princen and host Michael Simpson examine societal responses to disaster, the politics of rebuilding, the importance of deep structural change, and the broader implications for population growth, consumption, and ecological ethics.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Genesis and Purpose of the Book

• Dr. Princen was personally affected by a wildfire in Sonoma County, which led to his questioning not just what happened but what it means for society’s relationship to extreme events ([03:00]).
• He sensed a gap in both natural disaster and global environmental politics literature, aiming to integrate empirical and conceptual analysis:

  “There’s a story here that I don’t see in literature... So I try to put that together and you know, a lot of empirical work, but also the conceptual work.” — Princen [03:54]

2. Defining Key Concepts: Resilience and Adaptiveness

• Princen distinguishes his approach from the standard climate change narrative, preferring the term "adaptiveness" over "adaptation" ([04:25]).
• He positions adaptiveness as a more ecological, place-based concept focused on human-nature relations:

  “I use the word adaptiveness...to try to suggest more of an ecological notion, more of a place based notion, more of emphasis on relations and particular relations of humans to the natural world...” — Princen [04:35]

• He argues that current human activities are causing disruptions that undermine ecosystem resilience and require fundamentally new responses ([05:54]).

3. Case Studies: Galveston and Houston Flooding

• The book draws on events like the flooding from Hurricane Harvey and land subsidence in Galveston ([06:14]).
• Dr. Princen uses historical and current signals—such as neighborhoods literally sinking—to show limits to engineering solutions and the folly of ignoring geological processes:

  “So what I took from that case...was that these are all signals, signals from the past that say that we cannot live indefinitely on this basis...suggesting what is...underway now...is a shift inland and upland.” — Princen [07:58]

4. How Societies Interpret Extreme Events

• Extreme event “signals” are understood most powerfully at the local level, but local pain does not always translate to structural change ([10:17]).
• Paradoxically, fundamental change is often driven by those outside the most affected regions:

  "When a fundamental social change does occur...it seems generally to be the case it’s by people who did not experience that pain themselves." — Princen [11:48]

5. Human Perceptions and Limits to Change

• Princen explores the tendency for people to think “it won’t be us” until disaster strikes, and the deep-seated assumptions of stability in modern life ([13:07]).
• He calls for a shift from defensive, military-style responses toward adaptive living, rooted in acknowledgment of uncertainty:

  “How can we be more adaptive in our places?...then a lot of the sources of extreme events, the disasters themselves, will be mitigated.” — Princen [14:45]

6. Local Action vs. Systemic Inertia

• Reflecting on collective solidarity post-disaster, Princen suggests that while grassroots efforts are vital, alone they're insufficient to drive widespread, lasting change ([15:54]).
• True change requires moving beyond the local to affect higher levels—regional, national, global ([17:00]):

  “Those...can serve as the ingredients, the foundation of larger social change...they will come up against certain limits. And that’s where they have to go...to the state, to the region, to the country, internationally.” — Princen [16:25]

7. Scaling Up Adaptiveness

• Although his book doesn't provide a direct playbook for scaling, Princen sees promise in a broader normative shift away from extractive, externalizing mindsets toward partnership with nature ([17:14]):

  “It’s that larger normative shift...that provides some of the groundwork from which those larger scale shifts can occur.” — Princen [17:32]

8. The Politics of Rebuilding

• Princen recounts local pressure to rebuild quickly in fire zones, even waiving stricter codes, putting urgency and economic interests above safety:

  “There was a housing shortage before and...building right in the very well documented known fire hazard zone...she just could not conceive how a more thoughtful approach wasn’t being considered.” — Princen [19:50], referencing a city councilwoman’s experience.

• Rebuilding is often driven by powerful economic and political forces, frequently ignoring known dangers ([22:47]):

  “Strong economic reasons...to build back quickly and build out...is proceeding as if those communities will be safe, that there will not be fires...many of these fires cannot be controlled." — Princen [23:13]

9. Wider Context: Population, Consumption, and Global South Challenges

• Princen acknowledges that rapid population growth and resource pressure, especially in the Global South, are fundamental challenges that complicate resilience and adaptation ([24:47]):

  “Ever increasing population, ever increasing rates of consumption...is precisely what the problem is.” — Princen [25:46]

• He proposes that the real issue is the search for security and stability, which underlies both population expansion and overconsumption ([26:40]).

10. Toward an Ethical, Adaptive Future

• Princen proposes a “fire ethic”, inspired by Aldo Leopold’s land ethic, to cultivate responsible, place-based living with natural disturbances ([27:58]).
• He argues for embracing, not suppressing, fire and other ecological forces, learning from communities that do so successfully:

  “How do people...live with a reality of that place, namely fire?...An ethic...accepts fire...as something that is integral to our daily lives.” — Princen [28:00]

11. Correcting Urban-Nature Disconnections

• The economic system, with hidden subsidies (like insurance for homes in hazard areas), enables risky development and heightens vulnerability:

  “Houses...in the fire hazard zone...are being subsidized...There are huge subsidies to guarantee...that should not be possible...when you have recurrent fires.” — Princen [31:39]

• Princen suggests exposing these hidden supports is a key step to more honest, adaptive decision-making.

12. Final Reflections: Living with Disturbance

• The episode ends with a reminder: fires, floods, and other events are not just “problems to solve,” but conditions to understand and live with:

  “Fires and floods and hurricanes and tornadoes...this is part of the human condition, or more accurately, the human ecological condition...Living with natural systems...has happened and will continue to happen. People are doing it, the experiments are going on and we can learn from them.” — Princen [33:41], [34:25]

Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On the book’s motivation:
  “It just sparked that question, what does this mean? Not just what happened, but what does it mean?” — Dr. Thomas Princen [03:17]

• On adaptiveness:
  “I use the word adaptiveness in contrast to the climate discourse of adaptation to try to suggest more of an ecological notion...emphasis on relations and particular relations of humans to the natural world.” — Dr. Thomas Princen [04:35]

• On limits of local action:
  “Those people, your neighbors in Vermont there, they will do everything they can, but they will come up against certain limits. And that's where they have to go to higher levels, beyond just the local...” — Dr. Thomas Princen [16:25]

• On rapid rebuilding post-disaster:
  “Urgency and speed in the rebuild were the paramount concerns...justifying it in justice terms by saying that we have a housing shortage...putting aside any kind of roadblocks, including fire codes, to rebuild.” — Dr. Thomas Princen [19:50]

• On the ethics of living with disturbance:
  “An ethic...accepts fire, that sees fire not just as a threat or something to contain out of sight, out of mind, but as something that is integral to our daily lives.” — Dr. Thomas Princen [28:34]

• On the enduring reality of extreme events:
  “This is part of what it means to be human...Living with natural systems, including fires and floods, has happened and will continue to happen. People are doing it, the experiments are going on and we can learn from them.” — Dr. Thomas Princen [34:05]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Dr. Princen’s personal reasons & book’s purpose: [03:00–04:14]
• Defining adaptiveness vs. adaptation: [04:25–05:54]
• Case study: Houston/Harvey and land subsidence: [06:14–09:48]
• Signals from extreme events and societal response: [09:48–13:07]
• The limits of local action and scaling up: [15:16–17:32]
• Politics and economics of rebuilding: [19:36–24:47]
• Population, consumption, and global pressures: [24:47–27:31]
• Articulating an ethics for fire and flood: [27:35–30:46]
• Urban/nature disconnect and hidden subsidies: [31:39–33:36]
• Final remarks on the future and adaptation: [33:41–35:24]

Conclusion

Dr. Thomas Princen’s Fire and Flood proposes that society must fundamentally reconsider how it responds to disaster—not simply by striving to return to “normal,” but by learning to live more adaptively, ethically, and knowingly within the ecological realities of fire, flood, and other disturbances. The episode underscores the importance of place-based understanding, confronting systemic incentives that drive risky development, and nurturing a broader, ethical partnership with nature for a sustainable future.