Episode Overview
Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Morteza Hajizadeh
Guest: Dr. Tony Spawforth, Emeritus Professor of Ancient History, Newcastle University
Book Discussed: What the Greeks Did for Us (Yale UP, 2023)
Release Date: January 1, 2026
In this episode, Morteza Hajizadeh interviews Dr. Tony Spawforth about his recent book, What the Greeks Did for Us. The book explores the enduring legacies of Ancient Greek civilization, not only celebrating what has been passed down but also critically examining myths and misconceptions surrounding Greek history and culture. Spawforth details his thematic approach, delving into topics from ethnicity and rhetoric to beauty, sports, and the ancient-to-modern transmission of Greek influence, all while interspersing personal anecdotes and recent research.
Main Themes and Discussion Points
Origins of Fascination with Ancient Greece
[02:41]
- Dr. Spawforth traces his fascination with the past to childhood experiences, particularly reading old tombstones as a choir boy.
- Early exposure to Ancient Greek at school deepened his interest, especially in family and ancient history.
- The book's concept and title were publisher-driven, aiming to address how Ancient Greek civilization influences the present and to counter overly idealized narratives by adopting a more “warts and all” approach.
“We're in interesting times culturally where the classics are concerned. ... There is now a bit more interest in a kind of warts and all approach. And I suppose that was what I tried to implement with What the Greeks Did for Us.”
— Tony Spawforth [04:40]
Thematic Structure over Chronological Narrative
[05:45]
- The book is organized thematically rather than chronologically, covering topics such as politics, beauty, rhetoric, sports, and the representation of Greeks in media and performance.
- Spawforth explains the choice was to provide snapshots of how different aspects of Ancient Greece still resonate today, especially in the Anglophone world, without claiming comprehensive global coverage.
Ethnicity and Ethnic Distinctions
[10:30]
- “Ethnic” derives from Greek “ethnos,” and the Greeks were keenly interested in group characteristics.
- Post-Persian Wars, Greeks saw themselves as superior to Persians and generalized that the perceived submissiveness of Asian peoples was due to climate—a form of proto-racial theorizing.
- Cautions against over-generalizing ancient attitudes and stresses nuanced historical reading.
Myths and Misconceptions: Whiteness
[12:54]
- The myth that ancient Greeks were ‘white’ like 18th-century Europeans is debunked.
- Marble statues appear white because paint has been lost; Greeks preferred suntanned skin for men, pale for women, reflecting gender roles, not racial identity.
- Recent science has revealed original coloring on sculptures, further undermining the “white” myth.
“Yes, the whiteness of the ancient Greeks ... has become almost mythic, really, in traditional Western thinking about the ancient Greeks. And now it's being fairly rapidly overturned...”
— Tony Spawforth [14:45]
Slavery in Greek Society
[16:14]
- Ancient Greece was a slave-owning society, with no abolitionist movement.
- Aristotle justified slavery based on supposed natural suitability, not skin color, but on climate and “spirit,” laying groundwork misused by later pro-slavery advocates in the American South.
“What he [Aristotle] wrote about slavery was seized upon in the early 19th century by pro-slavers in the American south... a way in which the authority of ancient Greek civilization could be used or abused or misused to support a certain way of thinking in more modern times.”
— Tony Spawforth [18:58]
(Homo)Sexualities and Gender in Ancient Greece
[20:02]
- No singular ‘gay utopia,’ but norms permitted certain male-male relationships, such as the Theban Sacred Band (150 pairs of male lovers).
- Social disapproval for effeminate behavior or for citizen males being sexually passive.
- Female same-sex desire is less documented—Sappho’s poetry is highly debated.
“If you want to use how the ancient Greeks thought about these things, to think about these things in our own time, you have to be prepared to do ... the heavy lifting. You've got to be prepared to kind of dig down and take cognizance of what is uncertain as well as what is certain.”
— Tony Spawforth [23:10]
The Power and Ambiguity of Rhetoric
[23:54]
- Orality was central in Greek society; rhetoric—the art of persuasive speech—became essential for public life and politics.
- Greeks recognized the dangers of persuasive rhetoric, which could lead good people to do bad things—an anxiety still resonant today.
- Rhetorical flourishes influenced even ancient historiography, with historians inventing speeches for effect.
Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey—Literary and Moral Cornerstones
[28:42]
- Homer was seen as “the king of poets,” foundational for Greek education and morality, akin to a secular bible.
- These stories endure due to their narrative richness and adaptability; contemporary translations and retellings reflect evolving cultural lenses (feminist, queer, etc.).
“They have almost everything. You've got, got fantasy worlds, but you also have this extraordinary humanity. You have war ... you have cunning sex, you have family, you have heroic males, you have seductive females...”
— Tony Spawforth [31:10]
The Enlightenment and Science
[33:43]
- The scientific revolution and Enlightenment were not about rejecting Greek knowledge wholesale but about updating and surpassing it—e.g., heliocentric astronomy, medicine.
- Ancient Greeks initiated lines of inquiry still central today, such as philosophy and mathematics.
Male Beauty and Public Art
[35:42]
- The Greek appetite for depicting undressed males was unique in the ancient world.
- Artistic realism and idealized types of male beauty flourished; public art had religious, funerary, and sometimes political motivations (as in statuary rivalries between city-states).
- Kings such as Alexander the Great carefully curated their visual images.
“There's been nothing quite like it either before or since. ... This illusion of realism was something which really fascinated the ancient Greeks and caused them to marvel.”
— Tony Spawforth [41:30]
Greeks on Screen: Hollywood’s Influence
[42:00]
- Hollywood films have popularized Greek culture and history but often take substantial liberties with the truth.
- Spawforth advocates seeing cinematic inaccuracies as gateways for public interest, rather than as threats to scholarship.
Nudity and Social Justice in Sport
[45:03]
- Athletic nudity was seen as a social leveler; removing clothing erased outward markers of class.
- Ancient texts suggest this equality was valued over comfort or practicality.
The Ancient and Modern Olympic Games
[47:52]
- Modern Olympics, led by Pierre de Coubertin, were inspired but not strictly modeled on the ancient games.
- Women’s inclusion and mixed-gender audiences are modern innovations; many events (e.g., charioteering) were left out.
- Nazi Germany invented the Olympic torch tradition in 1936 to promote racist ideology; the ritual persists, stripped of its original propaganda intent.
“The interesting thing about this invented tradition by the Nazis of the Olympic torch is that it didn't lapse with the defeat of Nazi Germany in 1945 ... it remains very much a part of today's Olympic movement.”
— Tony Spawforth [53:35]
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
-
On complexity of Greek legacies:
“It’s a ludicrous proposition to try to do that between two covers, not least because the ancient Greek legacy is something to which many different countries today and cultures today can lay claim to a greater or lesser extent.”
— Tony Spawforth [08:15] -
On gender and skin color:
“The underlying thinking being that the sphere of men was the outdoors, the sphere of women was the indoors.”
— Tony Spawforth [14:12] -
On the impact of movies:
“Anything that brings the ancient world to life should be, in a way, lauded, should be welcomed.”
— Tony Spawforth [43:44] -
On athletics and equality:
“...male nudity in sports as a kind of leveling down. That is to say, if you all appeared naked, all athletes were equal, at least sartorially.”
— Tony Spawforth [45:40]
Key Timestamps
- 02:41 – Dr. Spawforth’s personal journey and book’s conceptual origins
- 05:45 – Rationale for thematic structure of the book
- 10:30 – Greek ideas of ethnicity and perception of Asia
- 12:54 – Debunking the ‘whiteness’ of the Greeks
- 16:14 – Greek views on slavery and later appropriations
- 20:02 – Sexualities in ancient Greece, Theban Sacred Band, Sappho
- 23:54 – Rhetoric, orality and truth in Greek society
- 28:42 – Moral and literary role of Homer’s epics
- 33:43 – Greek wisdom, Enlightenment, and science
- 35:42 – Beauty, athleticism and public art
- 42:00 – Greeks on film and popular culture
- 45:03 – Nudity in sports and its social implications
- 47:52 – Olympics’ ancient-modern transition, Nazi invention of torch tradition
- 53:35 – Olympic torch and legacy of 1936 Games
Conclusion
In a richly detailed and accessible conversation, Dr. Tony Spawforth shares insights from What the Greeks Did for Us, emphasizing the complexities, contradictions, and evolving influence of Ancient Greek culture. The episode not only illuminates historical truths but also interrogates modern myths, leaving listeners with a nuanced appreciation of the ancient past’s relevance and reach.