Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Holly Gattery
Guest: Dr. Treena Orchard (Anthropologist, Western University)
Book Discussed: Sticky, Sexy, Sad: Swipe Culture and the Darker Side of Dating Apps (Aevo, U Toronto Press, 2024)
Date: November 26, 2025

This episode invites Dr. Treena Orchard to discuss her new book, an unflinching memoir-meets-anthropology exploration of modern dating app culture—its seductive promise, emotional volatility, and the politics of digital intimacy. The conversation explores personal vulnerability, the realities of “swipe culture,” gendered double standards, and ethical storytelling, blending scholarly insight with intimate self-examination.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Write the Book? (05:33)

• Treena’s initial motivation was to “make sense of the chaos” on dating apps after joining them during a break from relationships and sobriety.
• The writing began as a personal journal, recording dates and experiences, which quickly accumulated into a book-length manuscript.
• Treena wanted a creative, non-academic challenge, describing the decision as both personal and political—wishing to open discussions others may conceal due to shame or stigma.

Quote:
"The experience was so strange and so fascinating as a sexuality scholar that I couldn't not write. Within three months of swiping, I had 60,000 words written. That's when I knew there was a book here."
— Trina Orchard (05:33)

On Vulnerability and “Bravery” (06:36)

• Both host and guest push back against the notion that honest writing by women is necessarily “brave,” reframing it as “necessary.”
• Treena felt empowered by her position (tenure, career credibility) to take creative risks and put forward her own secrets, resonating with the experiences of others.

Book Structure Development (09:03)

• The manuscript evolved from sprawling academic “honkin’ chapters” to a tighter, public-facing format.
• Editors encouraged brevity, playful chapter titling, and structural clarity to appeal beyond academic circles.

Writing About Sex, Honesty, and Feminism (12:13)

• Sex was always central to the book. Treena consciously avoided euphemism or fade-to-black scenes.
• Inspired by the likes of Eileen Myles, Melissa Febos, and Lydia Yuknavitch, she sought an “ethnopoetic” style—detailed enough to immerse the reader without explicitness for its own sake.
• Editors were supportive; few sex scenes were altered during revision.

Quote:
"People have said many times, we're right in—like we're at the edge of the bed with you. That’s a combination of my ethnographic training... and poetic part is just kind of how I like to think about and write about it."
— Trina Orchard (12:13)

Critique of “Girlboss” Culture (15:17)

• Treena unpacks the origins and contradictions of #girlboss, tracing it to figures like Sophia Amoruso and its adoption by Bumble’s Whitney Wolfe Herd.
• She notes how the allegedly feminist language masks exploitative business practices and reproduces patriarchal norms under a “whitewashed” banner of empowerment.

Quote:
"It turns out a lot of that sort of vernacular and those approaches are very similar to how men construct themselves in the business world. That’s part of why it’s very, very cringe now."
— Trina Orchard (17:21)

Choosing the Book Title (18:30)

• The alliterative “Sticky, Sexy, Sad” came to Treena in a flash of inspiration on a bus. The subtitle evolved in dialogue with her publisher to highlight “swipe culture.”
• She insisted on “darker,” not “dark,” in the subtitle, indicating nuance instead of total bleakness.

Anthropological Lens Meets Memoir (20:50, 22:33)

• Treena merges academic insight and raw personal narrative seamlessly, a process she describes as organic given her background: “being an anthropologist is so deeply who I am.”
• She intentionally avoided a “light switch” approach—letting both scientific context and emotional truth co-exist throughout.

Ethics of Writing About Others (26:06)

• She began anonymizing details early, even before realizing the project’s scope. Later, she notified men she dated; most responded with curiosity or even enthusiasm.
• Drawing on her work with marginalized communities, she meticulously protected individuals’ identities, changing names, locations, and salient features.

Gentleness, Grace, and Gender (28:06, 29:28)

• The host highlights Treena’s “gentleness” with male subjects even as she critiques the toxicities of dating app culture.
• Treena credits her own life experience and research ethos for this, describing kindness as “the light under the door that gets us through.”
• She hopes men see the book not as an attack, but as a reflection and an invitation for empathy.

Quote:
"Kindness is often like the thing, the light under the door that gets us through... I want men to read the book... You're going to teach men how women experience these things."
— Trina Orchard (29:28)

Ghosting: Harm & Response (33:39)

• Treena and Holly discuss the sting and cultural normalization of ghosting—disappearing suddenly from online interactions.
• Treena details her own hurt and self-blame, the unhelpful advice to “grow a thicker skin,” and the broader emotional implications.
• She is candid about her own occasional resort to ghosting, situating it within North American conflict-avoidance rather than pointing fingers.

Quote:
"Of course, the natural response, sadly, is that we often turn on ourselves and we blame ourselves... when you don't have answers as to why someone does something and you just kind of have to leave it there. And that's unsettling."
— Trina Orchard (33:39)

Next Project: Masculinity and Vulnerability (36:47)

• Inspired by men reaching out after reading her book, Treena is working on a new project exploring “the intersection between masculinity and vulnerability.”
• She aims to listen to men’s stories, challenging both the “broken men” narrative and broader culture war rhetoric.
• Preliminary work includes interviews and surveys from Canadian and international men, as well as insights from counselors.

Quote:
"I feel like focusing on men right now is strategically wise... If we understand where they’re coming from, we might be in a better position to make a bigger impact."
— Trina Orchard (36:47)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On writing from power, not fear:
  "I have tenure... If it all went tits up, pardon my French, and there was a big furor... well, I'm not going to lose my job. I don't really think I'll lose my credibility... I wanted to take that creative risk." (06:36)

• On girlboss culture:
  "It's very sort of whitewashed language, very similar to... mainstream settings. I think the term girl boss is kind of cringe now..." (17:21)

• On balancing academic and personal:
  "It was just kind of a rolling, fairly organic process, if I could say that... The poetic piece was always there." (22:33)

• On empathy and men as future readers:
  "There's this idea men don't read books like this... quite the opposite. I want men to read the book... teach men how women experience these things." (29:28)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:33] — Treena Orchard on first motivations and the “chaos” of dating apps
• [09:03] — How the book’s structure evolved
• [12:13] — Philosophy and method behind writing about sex
• [15:17] — Dissecting “girlboss” and its problematic implications
• [18:30] — Lightning-bolt moment behind the book’s title
• [20:50; 22:33] — Fusing anthropology and memoir, and the importance of tone
• [26:06] — Ethics, anonymity, and permission in writing
• [28:06; 29:28] — Gentleness, empathy, and aiming the book at all genders
• [33:39] — Ghosting: emotional impact and cultural context
• [36:47] — The next book: masculinity, vulnerability, and hope across divides

Tone & Takeaways

The interview is candid, witty, and deeply compassionate—balancing personal storytelling with robust cultural critique. Both host and author “swat away” loaded words like “brave” and “vulnerable,” reframing honesty and emotional intelligence as necessary contributions. The conversation invites listeners—regardless of app experience—to reflect on what it means to seek, give, and receive love in an era of swipe-driven intimacy, and how both women and men can be gentler with each other and themselves.

Recommended for:

• Anyone curious about dating app culture, digital intimacy, or memoir writing
• Readers and researchers interested in feminist anthropology or gender studies
• Men and women navigating vulnerability in contemporary relationships