Trends in KIdslit: A Discussion with Harold Underwood

Summary

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Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: Trends in Kidlit – A Discussion with Harold Underdown

Host: Mel Rosenberg
Guest: Harold Underdown
Date: October 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth discussion between host Mel Rosenberg and renowned children's book editor Harold Underdown, focusing on the evolving landscape of children’s literature ("kidlit"). The conversation touches upon trends and shifts in the kidlit market, the perennial tension between writing for oneself versus writing for the marketplace, and the practical realities of breaking into and thriving in children's publishing. Additionally, the episode provides a peek into Harold and Mel’s collaborative editing process and offers advice for aspiring authors.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introducing Harold Underdown and the Context of the Discussion

• [02:07-05:03]
• Mel welcomes Harold Underdown warmly, noting their five-year mentorship and friendship.
• Mel situates the podcast against the backdrop of significant historical and personal context, highlighting the importance of community and purpose in challenging times.

2. Preview of Harold’s Upcoming Workshop

• [05:03-07:34]

• Harold introduces the theme of his upcoming seminar: “Trends, Market Shifts, and Opportunities.”

• Emphasizes that understanding trends isn’t just about knowing what's "up" or "down" in genres, but about seeing the larger shifts in the industry.

  "I don't just want to talk about...what's up in picture books and what's down in middle grade novels... There's a lot of other things going on in publishing and in children's books in particular." — Harold Underdown [05:40]

• Workshop breakdown:

  • How to interpret trends and market shifts
  • Advice on finding and assessing information sources
  • Seeing into the future of the business through data and resources

3. Audience of the Workshop—and Who Kidlit Advice Is For

• [08:01-08:54]

• Harold clarifies he speaks to all levels: from beginners to seasoned authors, from picture books to YA.

  "It's really a big overview. So it's not just targeted at one particular kind of writer. It's everyone from beginner to the experienced." — Harold Underdown [08:16]

4. The Quandary: Write for Yourself, or the Market?

• [08:54-12:52]

• Mel invokes the age-old struggle: Should writers chase trends or write from the heart?

• Harold’s nuanced take: Writers must be aware of the market, but authenticity is critical.

  "You need to write what only you can write. That...is the expression of you as an individual that is different from everybody else, and that is what is going to stand out." — Harold Underdown [11:08]

• They share stories about the pitfalls of chasing trends too literally (e.g., drafting a biography manuscript purely because an agent once mentioned the topic).

5. Understanding the Evolution of Kidlit Categories

• [12:58-15:38]

• Harold explains key historical shifts: e.g., the 1960s saw the birth of "young adult" as a distinct library category, largely thanks to authors like Judy Blume.

• Emphasizes that knowing the history of the business is essential to understanding its present and future.

  "...before the 1960s, young adult books didn't exist as a category... And that happened then, but it's had consequences that continue to flow forward to today." — Harold Underdown [13:24]

• Mentions technological evolution (rise of personal computers, the internet, and now AI) and how these global and American trends have impacted publishing.

6. The Role (and Limits) of Editorial Mentorship

• [16:45-28:44]

• Mel and Harold recount the origins and evolution of their working relationship, offering practical lessons for other authors:

  • Harold typically provides written feedback on manuscripts, but their process evolved into live, read-aloud editorial sessions, especially apt for picture books.
  • The collaborative method highlighted the importance of hearing text read out loud.

  "What we do...we would do essentially close readings of your manuscripts...I would read your manuscript, the latest draft, out loud...and then at the end of it having a further conversation." — Harold Underdown [19:51]

• Mel describes the value in seeing Harold’s facial reactions during readings and adjusting drafts in real-time.

7. Editorial Process and What Makes a Manuscript

• [21:58-29:35]

• Harold breaks down his editorial process: it’s as much about emotional reaction as intellectual critique.

  • Editors, like all readers, bring their personal experience and emotions—this first, then analysis.

  "...when they're first reading something, they are responding to it. They are making meaning between themselves and the text, and they're bringing their past history, their personal experiences, their feelings..." — Harold Underdown [21:58]

• On manuscript readiness: an editor looks for promise. Sometimes it’s a "kernel," sometimes a fully formed concept; not every draft should be pursued to publication.

• Importance of matching manuscripts to one's core identity as a writer.

• The necessity of a “manuscript graveyard” for those that don’t quite make it.

  "Part of the process for a picture book writer...is learning how to identify the ones that are worth going all the way with and when...to set it aside." — Harold Underdown [30:48]

8. Perseverance, Accountability, and Community

• [31:13-35:56]

• Mel discusses how regular meetings with Harold provided steady motivation, deadlines, and feedback (“a lighthouse”).

• Harold stresses the importance of critique partners and writing buddies for writers who don’t have a personal editor.

  "Writers should definitely look for...structure. Not necessarily like a weekly deadline, but, you know, maybe monthly or whatever works for them so that there's something they're writing towards and that helps them keep going." — Harold Underdown [33:56]

• Good mentorship is honest: Mel appreciates that Harold doesn’t blindly praise work, but pushes for continual improvement.

9. The Realities of Breaking Into Kidlit

• [36:13-46:48]

• The emotionally tough road toward publication—rejections, waiting, and serendipity—emphasized by both Mel and Harold.

• Maintaining satisfaction and enjoyment in the process—more than just “fun,” something deeper and more resilient.

• Contests, connections at conferences, and other “lucky breaks” are often part of a personalized and sometimes circuitous path to publication.

  "If you keep working at it, opportunities appear, connections happen, real connections happen. And luck happens...but luck to happen...only...is only going to work if you're ready for it..." — Harold Underdown [39:12]

• Mel notes, “to beat the odds, you need to be odd”—embrace what makes your manuscript distinctive.

  "...the one in a thousand, the one in three thousand, there's always a story. It's either the manuscript is this or the author is this, or you went to a meeting, or to beat the odds, you need to be odd." — Mel Rosenberg [41:22]

10. Hard Numbers, Queries, Contests, and Finding Agents

• [41:44-44:58]

• Harold reports that many successful agent relationships begin with traditional queries, but personal connections (from conferences, etc.) increase success.

• "Slush pile" successes are often not random: they're typically the result of smart targeting and personal touches in query letters.

  "There's an enormous difference between sending out 14 queries...and sending out a query to someone who, you know, you've heard them speak at a conference, you've read their interview..." — Harold Underdown [43:46]

11. The Enduring Need for Hope, Perseverance, and Community Generosity

• [46:48-end]

• Both reflect on the need for readiness, perseverance, and generosity within the kidlit community.

• Mel praises Harold’s integrity and careful mentorship, urging listeners to leverage community and trends, but always “trust your kishkas” (gut instincts).

  "It's important to know these trends, it's important to know what's happening. But the end of the way you have to trust your kishkas." — Mel Rosenberg [48:21]

• Harold reiterates the importance of authenticity and perseverance, and they close with well-wishes for peace and community strength in challenging times.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• "You need to write what only you can write."
  — Harold Underdown [11:08]

• "Part of the process for a picture book writer...is learning how to identify the ones that are worth going all the way with and when...to set it aside."
  — Harold Underdown [30:48]

• "To beat the odds, you need to be odd."
  — Mel Rosenberg [41:22]

• "If you keep working at it, opportunities appear, connections happen, real connections happen. And luck happens...but luck to happen...only...is only going to work if you're ready for it..."
  — Harold Underdown [39:12]

• "It's important to know these trends, it's important to know what's happening. But the end of the way you have to trust your kishkas."
  — Mel Rosenberg [48:21]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [05:40] – Harold outlines the four subtopics of his workshop
• [10:21] – The writing for the marketplace vs. writing from the heart quandary
• [13:24] – Key historical shift: the emergence of YA as a category
• [19:51] – The unique live editorial process Mel and Harold developed
• [30:48] – On letting go of manuscripts and the value of discernment
• [39:12] – Luck, perseverance, and readiness in publishing success
• [41:22] – The importance of "oddness"—making work distinctive
• [43:46] – The importance of queries with personal touches
• [48:21] – Closing advice: trust your instincts (“kishkas”)

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Final Thoughts

This conversation paints an encouraging but candid picture of the children’s literature landscape. Aspiring and seasoned writers alike will find wisdom about balancing market awareness with authenticity, the value of strategic persistence, and the sustaining power of mentorship and community. The dynamic between Mel and Harold is warm, witty, and full of practical, actionable advice—reminding the listener that joy in the process is as important as the ultimate goal of publication.

Transcript

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[Marshall Po]

Hello everybody, this is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network and if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical, there are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome. Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Mel Rosenberg]

A very warm welcome to Harold Underdown, my I'm going to say you're first of all my friend, absolutely and my mentor and my personal editor for the past five years with a few hiatus eyes or hiatuses or hiatus or naidi. But basically we've Been working together for over five years. So welcome. And in the kidlit community, you're way up there. I can't think of anybody that I admire more than you, Harold. So it's a great pleasure to have you on the show. And now I have to remember that it's a show. So I'm Mel Rosenberg and I'm the. I keep forgetting what I am. I'm the host of the children's literature Channel, the New Books Network. And Harold, it's a great pleasure to have you. And before I begin, I'm going to have to make a little soliloquy or monogamy, whatever they say. Monologue. That's the word. Yeah. I knew that when we picked the day today. I didn't think about it, but today is October 7, the second anniversary of the most horrific event for the Jewish people since the Holocaust. And I just want to share my grief and to say that this program has received support of so many people and so have I. And I guess everybody knows that I'm here in Israel reaching out to the world and important for me to continue to do what I do on a personal level. And as someone who is Jewish and lives here and Harold, I know that this is what we should be doing because this is my way of sharing and loving and praying for a good world. So. And you are such a good person. So welcome to the show. It's also the Jewish holiday of tabernacles today where we invite the people to our sukkahs and our homes. And so I moved to my living room.

[Harold Underdown]

Wow, that's very apt, isn't it, that we're talking today for that reason. So, Mel, thank you. I mean, I have really, the past five years, I've greatly enjoyed working with you and I'm just really, I'm honored that you're having me on and that we get to talk in a somewhat different way together. So please, let's go ahead.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay. And timing is everything, isn't it? It's so important for kidlit. And next week you're giving a timely two evening seminar. I think it's on the 14th of October and the 16th for highlights. It's more fun to actually go to highlights, but the next best thing is to attend one of your workshops. So you're going to be talking about trends in kidlit and I'd like you to give my community a few.

[Harold Underdown]

Sure. So the full title is trends, Market shifts and opportunities. And we chose that title because I don't just want to talk about. Oh, what's up in picture books and what's down in middle grade novels because that's often not necessarily all that useful to know. There's a lot of other things going on in publishing and in children's books in particular. And so I'm actually, I actually I've broken it down to four kind of subtopics and I'll just kind of quickly go over those with you, if that's okay. I'm going to start by talking with people about, you know, like, how I see trends and market shifts and how I feel writers in particular can. Can look at them and think about whether or not it's a good idea for them to respond to them. And I also want to talk about as, as part of that kind of introductory bit, how they can find out for themselves about what's going on in our business. Like what are the good sources of information, how can you interpret what an editor or an agent is saying? And how can you. Actually there's a few resources in particular that I want to point people to that kind of help you see into the future, which to me is the most useful. So that's the first part.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Harold's Crystal Ball. So first of all, I should say that you have one of the most popular and well researched free websites on the Internet. For anything connected to kidlit, the website is the Purple Crayon, right?

[Harold Underdown]

That's right, yeah. The Purple Crayon, yeah. Thank you. Actually, I used to talk about like trends and sort of business happenings there. I haven't been able to keep up with that. But that's kind of what I'm drawing from, is some of that experience. And then I'm going to talk about how we got where we are because I think that's really helpful to understand what's in the market right now.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Harold, before we get where we are, I'm going to jump in here first. So here's the thing. Who is your main audience?

[Harold Underdown]

These are.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Right, right.

[Harold Underdown]

So yes, obviously I'm assuming maybe not everybody who listens to your. Your broadcast would be in this group, but I'm assuming I'm talking to children's book writers. Everybody from someone who's just getting started today to someone who's been working in the business for decades. It's really a big overview. So it's not just targeted at one particular kind of writer. It's everyone from beginner to the experienced. It's everyone from picture book writers to young adults.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, wonderful. I'm guessing that here my community is mostly authors who are trying to break in or authors who have broken in. And also a lot of people, hundreds and thousands of people who are interested in children's literature in general. But here's the thing. For people who are trying to break in, is this helpful? And the reason is, Harold, you are interviewee about number 199. And one of the, you know, we both identify as being Jewish people. And one of the strange things about Judaism is that that it says that we can do what we like, but God knows what we're going to do. And this is kind of a strange metaphor for those of us who are not particularly religious. I never really understood it. I mean, if God knows what you're going to do, then you can still have the choice to do it or not. It's a bit strange. And the analogy here in children's literature is that we tell people, and people have said this often on this, on, on this podcast, you should write to the, to the marketplace. And then I said, no, you should write from your heart, but you should write for the marketplace. A few words on this, on this quandary here.

[Harold Underdown]

I mean, that, that's a point that I'm kind of directly going to address during my workshop because it's so important. And I mean, for me, what it comes down to is it's both. It's. You need to know what's going on. You know, you can't just go off and write an isolation in your attic and not pay any attention to what's going on in children's books, in publishing, in the world.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Right.

[Harold Underdown]

You need to pay attention. But all of that goes into the hopper and what's really important. And I don't think I'm. I'm giving away too much of the workshop to say this is that I feel really.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Give away, Harold. Give away, give away.

[Harold Underdown]

I feel really strongly that you, you need to write what only you can write. That makes you know, that is the expression of you as an individual that is different from everybody else, and that is what is going to stand out.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Carol, Sorry. I want to remind you of something that happened to us. I'm now blessed with book deals. A lot of the credit goes to you. We'll talk about that in a few minutes. And I have wonderful agents. But in the day before I had agents when I was floundering and flopping around, I once read that an agent was interested in a biography about Carol King. Right. And you. And I spent about six months writing this bio. And I sent it to the agent and she didn't diss it. She didn't reject it. She didn't answer me. So sometimes it's not that healthy to see something and then say, oh, the world needs now, you know, a book about penguins.

[Harold Underdown]

That's definitely something. I'll be addressing that. When you see someone asking for something very specific, unless it happens that you've already written it, taking the time to write it for them, I mean, there's a small chance that something good might happen. But it's interesting. Yours is not the only story like this. Right. Like, people. People experience this all the time. So, yeah, it's really a case of being more generally aware of what's going on.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, so I stopped you. So go on to the other topics.

[Harold Underdown]

I am going to talk about the history of maybe the last 70 years. There's some really kind of, like, key things that have happened, some changes, and they've created the market that we're in today. And if you don't fully know that, you're not operating with the knowledge that you need.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Harold, give us a freebie example here.

[Harold Underdown]

So as a freebie example, and I think a lot of people know this story, before the 1960s, young adult books didn't exist as a category. Right. Children's books just went from. Actually, they were all kind of undifferentiated. We didn't really fully distinguish chapter books from middle grade novels from young adult. And all the books that were novels for children were differentiated by who they were intended for, but there weren't categories that differentiated them. And what happened in the 1960s and into the 1970s is that librarians were started noticing some books being written by people like Judy Blume that were for teenagers very specifically, not for 12 year olds. And they said, oh, we're going to start a new section of the library. We're going to call it young adult. So that happened then, but it's had consequences that continue to flow forward to today. And there are other things like that that then will lead me on my second evening to talking about the trends. But, you know, I'm also going to be, again, providing context of, like, what does it mean to say middle grade novels are slumping? Which is something people have been talking about now for a few years actually. And I have some thoughts about, you know, what's really going on and why that is. And then I'll wrap up looking at the even wider picture of trends that are actually coming into children's books from outside that are affecting our business also outside North America. Some of these are global changes. Some of them are American Yeah. But I'm going to be talking about technology, for example, and technology and the impact that it's had on publishing over the past 30 or 40 years. When I started in publishing, we didn't have personal computers. Right. Forget about the Internet. We didn't have personal computers. And that's had an impact on publishing around the entire world.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. Okay. I think it's important. Also on the show, I try and interview publishers from abroad and artists and authors because I do think it's different and sometimes we have to learn from other people.

[Harold Underdown]

Yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Other countries as well.

[Harold Underdown]

And I should mention I am going to be getting into AI and I have some strong opinions about that and I will say no more.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay. I'm just going to say that you surprised me last week in an argument with my wife, which you took her side. So, yeah, I will be eager to learn what you have to say about AI. So again, just going to shout out that it's always wonderful to hear Harold. I get to hear you every week. But for the rest of the world, it's only $59 or something, which is peanuts. And I highly recommend that everybody attend your workshop. Again, highlights, October 14th. And we'll put a little link. And now we're done with the advertising. Thank you.

[Harold Underdown]

Thanks, Mel.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So let's talk about me and you as a test case.

[Harold Underdown]

Yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Why don't you start? Do you remember how we met? Because I do.

[Harold Underdown]

Honestly, I don't. I'm really bad about this kind of thing, so you should say, okay.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So I've always, ever since I took a serious interest about 10 or 11 years ago. I mean, your name pops up everywhere. And then I saw that we were both going to a. To a children's book meeting in Ottawa, Canada, which where I grew up and I wanted to visit. I haven't been back in decades. And you were giving us one of the main talks and I wrote to you, I said, harold, wow. Let's meet up in Ottawa.

[Harold Underdown]

Wow.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And let's have a little coffee or something. And you're very kind. You're always very kind. And then of course, something named the COVID hit. And the.

[Harold Underdown]

That was the first spring of the pandemic.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Right. And then I said, okay, you know, we have this free publishing ebook website, our books. And I thought, okay, I would enlist you as an advisor for our books, which you were for a bit. And then I said, oh, you know, Harold is so good. This advice is so good. I need it. Why share it with the world? I need this stuff. And that is when we started, we started working together and just a few words. I don't know whether you still work this way with other people, but the deal was five hours of your time and you send payment in advance. And to be frank, I had to give myself an excuse to study with you. So I gave myself two excuses. First of all, I said I would use my parents inheritance for this because I'm sure that they're both deceased, but they would be very happy that I'm writing children's books. It was something that. My late mom was a kindergarten teacher, a very revered kindergarten teacher in Ottawa, and my father read me children's books and I think they would be happy that this, some of this money was going to further my, my education. And the second thing was, it was Harold, it was either you or a psychologist. I said, okay, psychologist. So, so we started to work together. Now it's your turn to say something.

[Harold Underdown]

Okay, so that, that's really interesting, Mal. And you know what, what, what I really treasure about what we do is it's, it's honestly, it's completely different about. Well, not completely different, but it's quite different from the way I work together with any other client. And that's really to your credit because you wanted to do that. And what we do, which is, frankly, it's unusual, is.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Well, hold on, Harold. First of all, say what you do with other people.

[Harold Underdown]

Well, my usual routine as a freelance or consulting editor is people contact me. We work out an agreement to work on a particular manuscript or maybe a set of manuscripts, and I give them feedback in writing, either on the manuscript itself or in a separate letter or both. And maybe at the end of it I'll have a conversation to kind of, you know, wrap things up and help and answer questions and so on. But my usual routine is I'm working with people in the way that I did always as an editor in house. I'm giving them written feedback and we're working from there. And what we evolved together, and this was again mainly because you were sort of wanting to go in that direction, was we would do essentially close readings of your manuscripts that I'd actually, we'd be together on screen, on Zoom, and I would read, and I still do this. I would read your manuscript, the latest draft, out loud, possibly stopping to make comments, and then at the end of it having a further conversation. And this was really, you know, this was, I think, really useful for you, not only because I was making comments, but because you were hearing someone else reading it.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And which we all, we always Recommend this, right?

[Harold Underdown]

Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Read your manuscripts. But what better thing is to get Harold Underdown to read your manuscripts. And what I. What I discovered over the years, Harold, is I've known this since our first interview, this is our third, that you are a past thespian. You liked acting, and you read the stories with gusto. And sometimes you pick the characters that you're gonna recite. Oh, I'm gonna be the walrus this time. Okay.

[Harold Underdown]

Okay.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah, yeah.

[Harold Underdown]

And I think one of the things that happens there is that my usual editorial process kind of plays out in real time. And what I mean by my editorial process is. And I think all editors really go through this. We often talk about editing and criticism of literature as something that happens up in the intellect. Right. It's something we think about and we look at what's on the page and we analyze it and we figure out what's. What's wrong with it. And I think that short circuits what's really happening, which is that anyone, even the driest academic, when they're first reading something, they are responding to it. They are making meaning between themselves and the text, and they're bringing their past history, their personal experiences, their feelings, and they're interacting with what's in front of them. And what happens for an editor is as you read through something, you're. You're. You're noticing your reactions. And then the second part kicks in, like, okay, why am I reacting like this? Maybe, you know, maybe something's funny and, and. And you're laughing at it. And it's like, oh, that's. That's a joke. Which the author landed. That's good. But also, you know, especially in an early draft of a. Manuscripts of a manuscript, there'll be places where I'll feel confused or disappointed or something else. And then again, I have to stop and think, well, what's going on here? What. Why am I responding in this way? And that's what it's all about. Right. Because what you have to do with a manuscript is you have to read it. And to the extent that it works for the reader, who in this case is an editor, your goal is that it's also going to work for another reader.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay. I want to qualify this, Harold, because we're talking here about picture books.

[Harold Underdown]

Sure.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And picture books are a play. Picture books are read aloud. And to be frank, I just. I didn't feel it would be fun any other way. I think I'm paying you money, right?

[Harold Underdown]

Yes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And at the beginning, I had no inkling whether I would be traditionally published whether I would find agents. And I told you two things. Maybe I told you one thing, Harold. Just make me the best writer that I can be. But of course, like everybody else, I was hoping that this would also help me find an agent and a book deal, which it did. But I was floundering for, let's say, three out of the past five years. But when you started reading the stories to me, I'm sitting and I'm typing notes and I'm fixing things and I say, oh, no, this doesn't sound right. And I'm making notes and I also see your facial expressions and I can see whether you're. And by the tone, whether you're getting into the story and say, okay, okay.

[Harold Underdown]

Yeah, so you're right. I mean, because they're picture books, it's practical to do this kind of approach. I would not do this with someone who'd written a middle grade novel unless there's a particular scene or two or three that we want to really like, zoom in on. But yeah, you can't do this practically for longer works.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, now I want to ask you some other questions, Harold. So one of the things you didn't do, and you didn't do this because you're Harold, in other words, you didn't phone up your friend Lucy and say, hey, you know, I have a student named Mel. Will you take a look at this stuff? That's not how you. That's not how you work.

[Harold Underdown]

It's also not how it works. Right? Like that whole idea, which I think a lot of people have, that referrals are what drive acquisitions or agent connections. You know, in my experience, that's. That's just not true. Right. For a lot of different reasons. One of them is simply that I might have felt we had developed a manuscript that was wonderful, but the people I know might not have been the right people for it. A connection isn't valuable if it's not the right connection.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Absolutely. But here's another thing. The manuscript that got us going. And I should also shout out to Mike Marlborough, who worked on this with me before I met you, Emily Sawador. In its published form, it was a lot better than what we had. And that was because it went through two publishers who challenged me, meaning for us to improve the manuscript in two separate parts of it. And it bothers me because it bothers me in kind of a good way. Is your job as an editor to see a manuscript and say, okay, it's not perfect, it needs fixing, but there is huge potential there when you don't know how the author is going to fix it.

[Harold Underdown]

That's not necessarily the way that I would look at it with Emily, certainly from the beginning. And Emily, by the way, and you haven't said this, and I'm going to say it for you, Emily saw Doors coming out in the US from. Is it Random House Studio is the imprint. Yeah. In February with wonderful illustrations. And people should be looking for it. So that's your advertisement. And honestly, Emily was. When I first saw it, conceptually, it was 90% of what it ended up being. You had it. You had the concept. It was the very strong concept of Emily knocking at various doors and being turned away and what she ended up doing. And we tinkered with it. We really did. Right.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And endlessly.

[Harold Underdown]

Almost endless. Almost endlessly. And. And eventually, you know, it got to the point where we felt comfortable and you. You were able to. To sell it to a publisher in Israel and that. And that's really where it started.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Well, let's shout out to Yotam and Mehira at Talmay who loved Emily, and Riq Magda, who made the wonderful illustrations. But I'm thinking that there's always. Okay, so let's say that somebody gives you a manuscript, you love the manuscript. You still don't know what it's going to look like in the end. Right. You don't know the final editing, but mainly you don't know how the artwork is going to play out.

[Harold Underdown]

This is true. Yeah. Yeah. I guess when I was working with you, and I think this is true more generally as well, I saw a number of manuscripts in different states. Right. Like, some of them were early drafts. Some of them were ones you've been working on more. They were more polished. And for me, I'm going to work with a client on something if I see promise in it, if there's something there that I think could get to the point where someone would want to publish it. And that could be something fairly small. It could be a kernel. It could be the entire concept of the story. The manuscript could have some major flaws in it or not. And, you know, I do remember when we, when we were initially working together, that there. There were manuscripts that I was less interested in. And I let you know that. And I think that's part of the process as well, especially with picture books, where for a picture book writer, one of the things you have to do, it's not just, you know, like, revise every manuscript until it's perfect. Part of the process for a picture Book writer, and I've seen this with a number of different writers, is learning how to identify the ones that are worth going all the way with and when. You know when to go forward with something and when to set it aside. And that's, you know, that's one of the things that we did so.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Indeed. And there was a post this week, I think, Vicki Weber, about the manuscript graveyard of picture book authors. We certainly have a huge graveyard. But here's the thing. Sometimes, and this is another thing that I love about you, is that there's manuscripts that, let's say you don't like, but you don't say, put this in the trash. You know, put it on the side. And what I know is that in order to get your eventual Seal of Harold Underdown approval, I'm just gonna have to work much harder on that manuscript if I want it to shine. There's some manuscripts that aren't me, and I can put them aside, and there's some that are me, like Emily. And these are the ones that I have to work on with all my OCD in place.

[Harold Underdown]

Yeah. And I could just break in. I mean, I think that's something that's also really important for a writer, is you have to know or learn, you know, what are the things that you care about as a writer? What is it that you most want to write about? What is it that you most want to express? And hold on to that, because that's what keeps you going.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Absolutely. And here's another thing that I want to commend you because our sessions are so much fun. You don't always come and say, oh, Mel, I love this one and I love that one. Usually it's quite the opposite. This one needs work, and this one needs a lot of work. You know, write a new. I'll be coming in. I'll say, oh, Harold's going to love this. You know, draft number 32. And sometimes you do, but usually there's more work to be done. And then I say, oh, shit. But then I say, okay, that's what this game is all about. And because you've made it so much fun, I look forward to our Sunday meetings. And it also gives me a lighthouse. So I know that at the end of the weekend, I have to report to you, and if we don't have stuff to work on, we're not going to have a fun session.

[Harold Underdown]

That's right. And, you know, maybe there's a lesson there for other writers. I mean, we have weekly sessions most of the time. And what that does also is. And you've talked about this, it gives you accountability that you. You have a deadline. You have a deadline every week of something. Ready for our meeting?

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah, I have to press Harold on Sundays. That's my job.

[Harold Underdown]

Exactly. And for other writers who aren't necessarily in a relationship with an editorial mentor like me, there's critique groups, there's critique partners, there's writing buddies. And that's something I think, you know, writers should definitely look for, is giving themselves a little bit of structure. Not necessarily like a weekly deadline, but, you know, maybe monthly or whatever works for them so that there's something they're writing towards and that helps them keep going. Because it's hard sometimes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It's very hard, Harold. You know, I have critique buddies and I have critique group and so on, and I'm a big favor, a big fan of that approach as well. But there's nothing like having your own editor whom you can trust. And most of the time I trust you and agree with you. And once in a blue moon, I say harold. Sorry. That sentence stays sorry.

[Harold Underdown]

Right. Well, you're the writer, Mel.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Exactly. Exactly. And we should say that since Emily, we've sold two other books, I hope, and hopefully we'll be able to sell more. So this brings me now to the subject we've discussed time and time again, which is why do it? Stephen Fraser talked about the passion of writing children's books, but it's more of a Christian passion on the cross. Because at the beginning, you don't have anything. You just get rejections. I was rejected hundreds of times. And you still have to have fun. It still has to be itchy scratchy. So my advice. The reason I love working with you and I never want to stop working with you is not only because you make me a better author and sometimes a better human being, but I have fun working with you. If anybody could see my face during our sessions, I'm smiling 95% of the time. And I think that the message that I would give to aspiring.

[Harold Underdown]

No, I lost you after. You not only make me better.

[Mel Rosenberg]

No, that's okay. I just said some nice things about you, Harold. But I really believe that you have to have fun doing this because it can take. In my case, it took almost 10 years and without some luck and talked about arithmetia without having wonderful illustrators. When you do get a publishing deal, it's not going to happen. And you have to feel comfortable spending your days and nights doing this. Yeah.

[Harold Underdown]

Yeah. I don't know if it's necessarily Fun. But you certainly have to find satisfaction and a kind of deep seated pleasure in the craft of figuring things out and having an idea, taking that idea, developing it, seeing that there are problems, working on them, finding possible solutions. You know that if, if that process is, is satisfying, then that's going to keep you going.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And, and we have this on occasion. You'll be working on the story and it'll be either you or I'll say, oh, maybe there should be a carpenter with the, with the walrus. And you'll say, oh, that's right.

[Harold Underdown]

It's great when that happens.

[Mel Rosenberg]

These are the wonderful moments. Harold, what haven't I asked you?

[Harold Underdown]

Honestly? I think you've asked me about the workshop. You've asked me about my editorial process. I don't know. Do you want to ask me about what's going on in publishing right now? We could talk about that. Or is that too depressing?

[Mel Rosenberg]

No, I will say this. No matter how depressing you make people, this has been my story since I went to SCPWI at the beginning of 2016. It's hard to break in. It's one in a thousand. It's one in three thousand. You'll never get published. You'll never get published. You're old and you're bald and you're a guy and you're from Israel. Nobody's egging ever look in your direction. And it's very depressing. If you look at the stats now, I'm going to let you jump in.

[Harold Underdown]

Yeah, I mean, the thing is, it's always been really hard, right? And we talk about the odds and you can kind of like construct them and say, you know, it's a thousand to one against me. It's ten thousand to one against me. But, and this is something I've been saying for a long time, you know, when it comes down to it, what you're hoping for and it doesn't always happen, right? What you're hoping for is that your one story, a picture book story, an early reader story, a chapter book story, a middle grade novel or YA novel, a piece of nonfiction for, you know, whatever age group. What you're hoping for is that will make a connection with an agent and an editor or just directly with an editor. And when that happens, the odds are completely irrelevant because it's just you, your manuscript and that person. And if it's, if it's the right thing for them and they have, I mean, and this is an if too, right? They, they have the pull to get it through the acquisition process, then it happens. So I always tell people, don't look at the odds. Don't count yourself out. Because if you keep working at it as long again as you're finding enjoyment in the process, if you keep working at it, opportunities appear, connections happen, real connections happen. And luck happens, as you said. But luck to happen, kind of only that's only going to work if you're ready for it, right? And you were ready for it.

[Mel Rosenberg]

No, but Harold, you also have to bust down doors and you have to be there. Of the 198 previous people that I've interviewed, we talked about this, very few find their deals through the slush pile. It happens. They beat the odds. They enter contests, they go to meetings, they talk to editors and talk to agents, and they try to be nice, and they get involved in the community. They do podcasts, which is actually how I made my luck happen through these podcasts. And while you were talking about the odds, I have another. Now I have another take on this, because the word odd can mean several things, right? It's the odds, but it's also being odd, like an odd manuscript. So you really have to find your oddness, because the one in a thousand, the one in three thousand, there's always a story. It's either the manuscript is this or the author is this, or you went to a meeting, or to beat the odds, you need to be odd.

[Harold Underdown]

I mean, I will say that there's another perspective on that that I discovered when I was researching for a different workshop about submissions. And I talked to a bunch of agents, and most of them told me that the bulk of their clients came into them through traditional querying of manuscripts. So I think, you know, there's no one path, right, for you. You made your own very unique odd path. And there are a lot of other people who can say the same, but for people who are not able to do that because it's not their personalities or whatever, other ways can work too. And, and it. I think it's just really interesting that every person has their own path, you know, and. And there's no single path that has been the same even for people who have been querying in a traditional way. Once you start talking to them, you know, you find out that there's lots of variations on that and, and different ways that it plays out.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So, Harold, but, but I'm going to agree with you. But I also want to tweak this a little bit because, you know, I have interviewed many agents over the past years and met a few, and I have my wonderful Agents Liza Fleising and Ginger Harris in New York. And by the way, agents are really nice people and they are completely misunderstood, but that's another subject. But when they say to you that they found someone through the slush pile, it's somebody who wrote, you know, I saw your presentation and so on. We met it. This and this. Usually there is some personal thing in the hoch book Shmuck Tokun Nuk that somehow connects them.

[Harold Underdown]

That's absolutely true. You have to do your homework. There's an enormous difference between sending out 14 queries to 14 agents whose names you found in the SCBWI Essential Guide, and that's really all you know about them, and sending out a query to someone who, you know, you've. You've heard them speak at a conference, you've read their interview. Yeah, that. Absolutely. You need to.

[Mel Rosenberg]

There has to be. There has to be. There doesn't have to be, but there should be. It helps something that brings you closer. Also something I was never able to do. Winning contests. Winning. You know, Vivian Kirkfield has the 50 precious words. And there's so many different other contests you can enter. I never won, so that was never an in for me. But other people who won contests found agents, and people who had their manuscripts looked at at a meeting found agents. And yes, there are some examples of people who just wrote in with a brilliant eternal piece of art and were picked up that way, but those are really the odd men and ladies out.

[Harold Underdown]

Yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Harold, listen, it's a joy speaking to you. It's been five wonderful years working with you, and, I mean, did you ever. So this is the last question. You know, when we were working together and I didn't have an agent, I didn't have a book deal, and I was suffering and floundering and there was Corona and stuff going on here in Israel and health issues and whatever. Did you ever say to yourself, this poor guy, he's never going to have a book deal?

[Harold Underdown]

I. You know, I don't. Well, I'm not going to say. I would never say that about someone. I certainly didn't say it about you. And. And the reason is, I think I. Again, I know from experience I've started working with people at different points in their journeys, and it's very hard. I would say it's impossible to predict, you know, this person who's right here right now, they're going to make it, versus this person who's right over here right now is not. Because that's just a snapshot. And where they're going, that's up to them. So with you, I was happy to keep working with you because I could see you were learning, right. And you're writing was improving and your self editing skills were improving and they've continued to improve and your knowledge of the process and of our business has grown. So.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah, but without, you know, without that chance phone call to your thumb, it would never have happened. And luck is lucky part of it.

[Harold Underdown]

But you were ready for that luck, Mel.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You have to be ready for the luck. You have to be ready for the luck. You have to enjoy what you're doing, you have to suffer, you have to be prepared to persevere during very difficult times, which I think I was. That was to my advantage. And you have to try and be nice to people and you have to remember that it's a community. But the more that you give to the community, the more you're going to get back. And Harold, you are one of the people who gives the most to the community in so many ways. Your website and your contribution to KidLit 411 and I can tell you that and I'll just tell people one of the great things working with you is that I pay you in advance. But you're so careful. It's not like if we talk for 35 minutes you will write in your book 28 minutes because we talk for seven minutes about, about the weather which always going to talk about snow with Harold Underdown. So a real, a real mensch. And I expect now you'll be inundated with people who want to work with you. And that's the way it should be. In the meantime, run out and grab a ticket to Harold's presentation. And just my, my last advice is it's important to know these trends, it's important to know what's happening. But the end of the way you have to trust your kishkas.

[Harold Underdown]

That's right. That's absolutely right, Mel. And you have done that, you have.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Done that and I've trusted you, Harold. And that has been to my great benefit. So everybody, I'm Mel Rosenberg, the host of the Children's Literature Channel, the New Books Network. And I have been hosting the wonderful amazing editor Harold Underdown who is celebrating. We're celebrating five years together and you're celebrating next week's presentation for highlights on trends in children's literature, et cetera, et cetera. Give the whole title, Harald.

[Harold Underdown]

The official title is Publishing Trends, Market shifts and Opportunities.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah, you wouldn't expect me to remember all of that. No, I can't remember my whole name. Everybody have a wonderful week. And we are in a very tenuous situation here in the Middle East. Hoping for our hostages back and for peace finally and to smile a lot more than we have been. Harald. It's been a real joy.

[Harold Underdown]

Everybody take care of Mel. Thanks for having me.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It was a great privilege and pleasure, Harold. Bye bye.