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Ulinka Rublack, "Dürer's Coats: Renaissance Men and Material Cultures of Social Recognition" (CEU Press, 2025)
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- [00:01]
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- [00:56]
Yana Byers
Coca Cola for the big, for the small, the short and the tall. Peacemakers, risk takers for the optimists, pessimists for long distance love for introverts and extroverts, the thinkers and the doers for old friends. And new Coca Cola for everyone. Pick up some Coca Cola at a store near you. Welcome to the New Books Network. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to New Books in Early Modern History, a channel on the New Books Network. I'm Yana Byers, your host, and I'm here today with ulynka Rublak of St John's College, Cambridge University, to talk about her new book, Daughter's Renaissance Men and Material Cultures of Social Recognition, out this year 2025 with the Central European University Press. Hello, Yulinka, and welcome to the program.
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Yulinka Rublak
Hello, Yana. So pleased to be here.
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Yana Byers
It is absolutely a delight to talk to you. How are you today?
- [02:02]
Yulinka Rublak
I'm extremely well. Yeah, it's sunny, I'm in Munich and I'm finishing a book, another book.
- [02:09]
Yana Byers
It's perfect. So that is absolutely. That's fantastic. I mean, sabbatical years are great and Munich instead of Cambridge probably has its benefits too.
- [02:19]
Yulinka Rublak
Yeah, that's right.
- [02:20]
Yana Byers
Yeah. All right.
- [02:23]
Yulinka Rublak
I really enjoyed the book.
- [02:24]
Yana Byers
It's absolutely beautiful. There's so many great, great illustrations, wonderful figures, and we'll get to that in a minute. But you open the book by invoking one of the masters of cultural history, Natalie Zeman Davis. And I want to talk about how, like, I know, I know, you know, how about the lecture series, but how did Natalie, like, how did. How does Natalie influence this book? The late, great Natalie Zeman Davis I.
- [02:51]
Yulinka Rublak
Suppose, in so many ways. Let's start with how when I got invited to do the Natalie Zimmerman Davis lectures, that then she passed away, so they turned into the first memorial lectures, very, very sadly. And I could still correspond with her, though, about the book a little bit, but would have obviously loved to have had her comments on what I was saying. But obviously in preparing for the lectures, I reread most closely, actually, her book on the gift and exchanges, because in that she shows how, of course, the early modern world in the 16th century in particular. So this is a book about the 16th century, is a world where people constitute relationships and social selves really through giving each other clothing and how the entire way in which you gain recognition, it then seemed to me, is mediated by these relationships both to people and the kind of fabrics they give you and their materiality. And she has wonderful passages on this, of course, with a lot of archival evidence from France, and draws you into the complexity of that world, so across the life cycle. So when you're a child, of course, immediately for your baptism, you're given clothing that will dress you and indicate, of course, the social hierarchy, but also have real effects, effect on how your body feels in that period, and it goes all the way through your entire life. Cloths is a currency. We often think that was only the case in Africa, but of course, it's the same in Europe. When you're, say, a maid servant, then you will negotiate with your master what shoes you're getting, what clothes you're getting, and that means a lot impacts on your chances to find nice husbands and all the rest of it. So, you know, she. She did bring out that life cycle dimension, I thought, really, really. Well, the second point, just very briefly, is that, of course, I think you cannot write, as it were, for her, in part, without then thinking very carefully about style, because she was such an extraordinary stylist and. And was so good in, you know, writing in an. And yet very nuanced way. And. Yeah, so obviously I tried to do that a little bit myself.
- [05:51]
Yana Byers
Well done. Yeah. Right, before we get any further into the topic, can you tell our listeners a little bit about Albrecht Durer? Who is this man?
- [06:00]
Yulinka Rublak
Yeah, so Albrecht Durer was one of the greatest artists of the Northern Renaissance who ever lived, but, you know, very influentially in Italy through his prints in particular, and even down to India. So, you know, we know that Google Princess would actually own Durer engravings, so they traveled very widely. He was born in 1471 and he died in 1528. So we'll have the 500 year celebrations coming up very soon in 2028 and commemorations. So he's best known to us perhaps nowadays through inventing the selfie, we might say the artist selfie. So what is extraordinary, I mean, he's genuine, extremely inventive. There are loads of firsts all the time. But these three portraits in oil that are very large are the first, you know, full size portraits of an artist. And of course, you know, the question is why did he do that? Which was just interesting to explore.
- [07:11]
Yana Byers
Yeah, I mean my. Why does he do this? What is his obsession? Obsession is a strong word, but he does make more self portraits than is common. I mean, I'm thinking about Vincent van Gogh is coming up with someone who does about as many. So what's his interest there?
- [07:31]
Yulinka Rublak
Yeah, so this leads us into that interesting question of the position of the Renaissance artist. So he's the son of a goldsmith. He really breaks away from his father. He could have just taken over the workshop in quite a dramatic way because he's seeing, he lives in Nuremberg and he sees the paintings in the churches and he just decides that's what I want to do. And of course painting. So then he's still best known actually as a printmaker. Famous prints like the melancholia that chose what we now think of as a depressed woman are very well known. But what he wanted to actually do was to paint and deal with the materiality of pigments and create worlds from those. So that's how it started. And he then trained and set up his own workshop and he was not that well off. So he died then in 1528, as we said, as one of Nuremberg's richest men. But that was a huge. And he was a member of the outer council of the city. But you know, all this, you know, was, was hard to achieve. So why represent yourself? You know, in general, this is done just as with the diaries of those who lived in the Renaissance, by people who have something we would today call status asymmetry. So they're kind of in, you know, in between and you know, they want to make claims for, in his case, the nobility of his art. That's someone who make something with their hands should just be as recognized as someone who's say, a scholar and that's a fight. And therefore he has to almost confront himself. So each of the three self portraits looks completely different. And it's also important to say that he does stop doing that in oil in 1500. So it's not as if he had a kind of compulsive, narcissistic selfie habit. He still has metal stuff struck. And so, I mean, it was clearly, you know, he was thinking about, who am I? What do I look like to others? And he certainly stylized himself in different ways throughout his life, very, very actively. But, you know, there were also, however, there was a rhythm and rhyme to this that tells us a lot about his, his life. Yeah. Why did, why did he stop? Yeah, it's very interesting. I mean, you know, the 1500 self portrait is, is probably the best, best known and very easy to Google for those who listen. And it shows him looking Christ like now, you know, we now think that he actually just kept that at home. And home was of course, home and a workshop. So in part, and it's, you know, naturalistic, incredibly detailed. So in part, you know, we think that this was also to say, look, this is the quality of portrait I can paint if you pay me very well for it. So we see when we study, say, how he did eyelashes in other portrayals, you can see, of course, how much effort he would choose to put into a commission or not. So here he shows you. This is the best I can do. But then of course it's of significance, secondly that it's the year 1500, so it's a new century. There are hopes that are bound to this. And he wants to show himself also as part of that new movement of art for that new century. And of course he was very good friends with leading humanists and in fact two of the leading humanists in the German line. So he's part of that movement. It's inscribed in Latin, which he didn't really learn at school. Thirdly, however, and finally, it also has very much a Christian message. Durer was very religious, everyone at this time. And of course it also wants to say, I'm created in the image of Christ. That's why it's Christ like. And the claim linked to that is that, you know, created in the image of Christ, I can then, you know, I've been given the talent, the God given talent to reproduce God given nature and therefore I should be esteemed. So it's a strategy of gaining recognition. And it's very important when we look at the clothing that, you know, not the same as Christ's. So Christ was known to have worn a seamless garment and that's clearly not what he's wearing. I think, and I argue in the book, and this draws on a conversation I had with Jenny Tiramani, who's the head of the school of historical dress in London, that what he's actually wearing is just a relatively simple lambskin leather coat. So actually not very fancy. So underscoring, again, this notion of the humility, of the awareness that you're created in the image of Christ.
- [12:46]
Yana Byers
So you talk about him being involved in the humanist, which leads me to a question about source material. So you use the images, but you're an historian. What else are you using to make your argument?
- [12:59]
Yulinka Rublak
Well, Durer wrote quite a lot. I mean, by the standards of the time. So it's often quite frustrating for us that we think, here are these great artists everywhere, we're having really interesting ideas, and not many of them actually did keep a diary or extensive notebooks or kept their letters. I mean, Michelangelo is a famous exception. So for Dureau, we have a precious nine letters, as you know, from Venice when he's there in 1506 back home. And they're just so eloquent and raw in emotion. They're very different. So each piece of writing we have by him has a very different tone. So then next we have letters he wrote to his patron when he comes back home, a kind of merchant whom he kind of tries to explain what it really means to paint a painting. And that's been the subject of my last larger monograph, Durer's last masterpiece. And then we have, that's very well known, the kind of diary, notebook, account book he keeps when he visits Antwerp towards the end of his life in 1520, 1521. So that is a surprising source alongside drawings. So we can, for instance, pay attention to the fact that there he commissions a very elaborate separate coat before he returns back to Nuremberg. And we even have drawings he made of what a coat for his wife should look like and how it should be cut. So these are really quite extraordinary records, and I enjoyed working with them very much.
- [14:49]
Yana Byers
Why is dress important?
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Yulinka Rublak
Well, dress, as we alluded to at the beginning, is so. I mean, I think it's always important. I mean, Virginia Woolf put it so nicely when she asked that question, you know, do clothes wear us or do we wear clothes? So, you know, there's that. That intimate relationship with clothes that kind of really constitute how we feel, how we. How we walk, how we say, you know, women have this often with high heels, you know, that, you know, of course, course, change their posture and create certain feelings. So there's something very powerful about dress in that way. And what interested me here is I'm always very fascinated by the history of male dress, what it tells us about what I call Rhetoric. So, you know, how people try to gain recognition in that society where social hierarchies were melting. So, as in an artisan could aspire to be ennobled. I mean, I think that is ultimately what Durer, for instance, hoped to be ennobled. I mean, he wasn't. But, you know, it wasn't unthinkable anymore that this might happen. So obviously it gains particular relevance in that circumstance and therefore tells us a lot about the dynamic of that society. And so I then became fascinated by the coat, which really hasn't been written about, as far as I can see, even though it was the most expensive garment in any men's wardrobe, and really very expensive. And what I could see was through studying lots of images and also, of course, notes from inventories, was that the coat was, during the 15th century, most of the 15th century, relatively simple and cut, and then it really takes off and it becomes very elaborate. The dyes can be in all sorts of colors for men. You have to imagine men in green coats. We always think of men in black for that period, but that just isn't the case at all. So they become a very versatile means of communicating identities and who you think you are or how you think you want to be seen. So that interested me in particular in relation to coats or cloaks, as they would have said. And then also that second dimension of, you know, how can we think about it in sensory terms? How did it influence emotions? And we can think of the cloak as a, you know, of course, it was very wide and it was floor length up to the 1550s as a kind of house, as something that can kind of announce you to others, but also protect you in a certain way and gives you a sense of weightiness. So it turned out to be actually fascinating. There's always a sense of sex is good to think with, but actually cloaks turned out to be good to think with as well, to get us into a sense of what it means to be human really, in exchange with thingliness and materiality. Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today.
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- [18:33]
Yana Byers
And breathe.
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- [18:41]
Yulinka Rublak
Namaste.
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Yana Byers
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Yulinka Rublak
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- [20:10]
Yana Byers
Learn more@duo.com yeah, yeah, there's this way that dressing like expresses the self but really also helps to write the story of the person as well, right? When you dress, you create yourself.
- [20:26]
Yulinka Rublak
That's right. So you know, there's this notion of performance performativity that, you know, changed the way in which gender was constructed. So really through investing so much in these cloaks and making them so much elaborate, I was very intrigued that if you look at German marriage portraits, so you know, at the point of marriage when couples would commission, you know, of course, wealthier couples, but you know, burger couples absolutely would commission a portrait of the husband and wife that of course the women also had cloaks, but they're almost never depicted in one. So it really becomes something to announce men to the world or to shelter them from it, as it were. So it constructs masculinity and it actually relates to philosophical questions that have been asked, following on from Hegel's thesis thinking. And that is really therefore the quite profound question about whether recognition is something that we create, the interiority. So that is to say whether you can just think I'm great, I'm important. But the other way of looking at it is to say that actually the only way we can claim recognition is through having been told that something we've done is of value. You can say that starts in infancy when we, you know, hopefully everybody grows up with, you know, lots of well dones, so that, you know, the only way in which you build a stable, you know, then more stable sense of, you know, being worthy of recognition is through relationship with others, you know, other humans. But I would also argue through a relationship with things. And I think that really gets us to, you know, that further level of why, you know, you asked that question, why is dress so important? Well, it's important because, you know, often it's used to, with a sense of, you know, it validates you, it, it, you know, bestows worthiness onto you. If you were a kind of heavy, wide garment, it takes, you know, take space of a certain color, of a vibrant bread, a red, for instance, has that function. And philosophers seem to have just thought about the inter. Social. And so the kind of methodological contribution in part is to say, well, let's add things into that matrix of how as ultimately quite fragile humans, things help to constitute recognition. But then of course, we're talking about inequalities and Judith Butler is very good in reflecting on that. Philosophical, though not about fit things. So this whole question, who's, in terms of gender and social inequality, who's being made visible? And this is a field of power and that's crucial. So again, I think something is happening there. On the one hand, artists like Durer can use the cloak in order to make claims to visibility in society and honor, and others are excluded from those possibilities. But he certainly invests a lot in it. So when I said that he's buying that cloak in Antwerp, so we know everything about how he commissioned it. And someone like him, he would have thought very, very carefully about how to get particular materials from Spain and make it all work, because everything came just as a little piece. So you don't buy a piece of, piece of fur, you buy skins and then you have to put them all together and you've got to find the right, you know, the right fur. And you know, all of this men, men actually thought about with great care and preparing for, you know, the, the next staging of their Persona.
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Yana Byers
Yeah, I think that is probably a very important thing to remind our modern listeners is we're not, this isn't ready to wear. You're not walking into a department store or a big box and purchasing a, a coat. Right. This is a garment that is, has, is coming from all over and is created and takes an immense amount of time to make as well, you know, and it's not like you have 10 of them?
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Yulinka Rublak
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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Yana Byers
You know, and you mentioned. You've just mentioned the fur. And this is another place where Durer's so really special. Right. Really notable that he has a way with fur in his painting and textures. And so part of it, I suppose, is that it's such an important material. What is he doing with fur?
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Yulinka Rublak
Yeah, that's absolutely right. So I was interested. So, obviously, a very influential art historian who wrote about Durer was Erwin Panofsky. And he. In his book about Durer, which was so important, he wrote it then in exile in the United States when he'd left Nazi Germany and lived in Princeton, worked there. And it was pioneering because he really used Durer's writings to an extent that few had done before. And he's got a great line in it where he says something. When Durer is visiting the Netherlands in 1520, 21, something happens to his treatment of fur and he thinks of it as a change in style. Whereas my argument is in the book Duras Coates, this is something to do with the social networks he's part of in the Netherlands, because he's really a part of these networks of art lovers that kind of merge new or connect up old elites, such as noble people and even the emperor with new elites. So merchants, for instance, and those who created culture are also important in these networks. Creating connections between these people and fur, of course, is hugely important for all of them, because if it's good, obviously not fox fur, which is quite cheap because it loses hair very quickly, but sable marten from the throat of the marten. All these types of furs are very much sought after. And so I think what happened is that we can really track a new sensitivity through that being so part of the networks he then visualizes in portraits of these men.
- [27:31]
Yana Byers
You know, the world changed a good deal over the course of Durer's life. An ongoing question is, you know, whose life? The world changes a lot during everyone's life. Do we feel like we're living in important and interesting times? Does everyone think that anyway? But without question, the world changes a great deal, particularly in Germany or in kind of the north, where he's living, and so does his work. And so the final image you address, his portrait of the unfortunately named willibald perkheimer in 1524, really makes the change in his work clear what's going on? Can you tell us about that, that portrait, and then we can try to take it apart. Yeah.
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Yulinka Rublak
So that's an engraving of this very important humanist friend who looks older than Durer, but they were actually peers. They were just months apart in age and they were very, very close friends, possibly with a sexual dimension, whether assumed or not. And from Purkhammer we know for sure that he was for parts of his life quite vain, which is something, you know, these men start, you know, they teased each other about, you know, they dye their hair. You know, Dura dyes his hair, Purkhammer dyes his hair. Per Kama is not, you know, he's quite, you know, he's not a natural good looking man, but, you know, wants to be. He's, you know, after women. He doesn't remarry when his wife dies at childbirth. So they have a, a kind of shared history of, however, also aesthetically caring about beauty. So we think of this as something superficial, but as you know, as a Renaissance scholar, these things are actually, again, they're actually deep because they're engaging with this question about the beauty of the body, again as good God given, but also as something that is linked to transcendence. And this is all about this idea that you can prolong this optimism of the Renaissance, that you can prolong youthfulness and life so very close to our current concerns. And that is a perfectly legitimate and positive thing to do. So it's very far away from strands of Christian morals that have emphasized throughout the Middle Ages that life is so sinful that, you know, it's just best to just wait for you to die and then finally gain eternal life. And that's the real thing to, you know, to have. So, you know, that's where humanism and Christianity can really clash. So it is actually, you know, the question about whether as a man, if you are Dura Per Kame, whether you dye your hair is actually bound up with those questions. So the engraving he does, however, of Purkheimer is after the Reformation. And that again shows how you were saying these men have to accommodate so much. The Reformation also tore or put tension into their friendship because Durer supported Lutheranism and Perkhammer did not, even though he could see criticisms of the Catholic Church. And it's also that things having shifted so much, the portrayal really reflects that. And with aging being in their early 50s, Purkheimer clearly wants to reckon with time having passed and another age having started. So what's extraordinary about that portrayal is that it's not idealized. And so the fir, for instance, is just rendered as a series of loose kind of incisions really into that copper plate the engraving would have been made from. And it really has an astonishing Effect on viewers. The inscription says all that will survive is ideas. You know, it's not the body, it's not how you look, it's not the coat. And of course, that does sum up then, that version of humanism that it wants to dematerialize itself, as if we could. But after everything that's happened beforehand, it's an extraordinary image to have produced in that relationship and for us now to reckon with with.
- [32:29]
Yana Byers
Yeah, it's. It's just so. So stark and so non flattering for someone, you know, this. This person he's really close to. And it just feels like a reformation or it feels like the reformation has happened.
- [32:48]
Yulinka Rublak
Right.
- [32:48]
Yana Byers
This is not. It's a. It's a different time, It's a different church. It's a different aesthetic.
- [32:53]
Yulinka Rublak
You know, it's really.
- [32:55]
Yana Byers
It's kind of impressive.
- [32:56]
Yulinka Rublak
Yes. You know, we might say that. You know, we see his skin sagging at the neck and, you know, all these things. I mean, again, those who listen can look it up very, very easily. And it is, as you say, you know, it is about a new age and a new type of honesty for Dura as well.
- [33:22]
Yana Byers
So I have a bigger question, I think. How does focusing on material culture and everyday objects change or nuance our understanding of the Renaissance?
- [33:35]
Yulinka Rublak
I think it really changes it. I mean, I wrote also extensively on feathers, an article in the American Historical Review, for instance, befeathering the European, where I to move away from that idea that the Renaissance is about intellectual achievement in terms of thinking mathematically about perspective, for instance, to saying it's about a new culture of ingenuity in all sorts of crafts, including crafts that actually are massively inspired by Mesoamerican cultures that were really helped in great esteem for their featherwork. And of course, that is to do with globalization, that they become aware and colonialism, that they become aware of these traditions that they, however, very much respect. And then you get feather workers setting up in Europe. So, yeah, the Renaissance culture in, you know, which we could really characterize through that commitment to ingenuity, sophistication in a subtlety, in the subtle crafts expresses itself absolutely through a world of things and through that engagement with materiality. But then, you know, as we've outlined in this conversation, that means, you know, it's not, you know, that means reckoning with the power of things, with the power of clothing, for instance, you know, which is not always easy to domesticate. So then that makes you aware, for instance, of. Can make you aware of aging in other ways. We know Aretino in Venice, as you work on Venice, it's one of the first letters that tells us about men actually starting to diet because then they feel more attractive, in this case to women. So, of course, the awareness of the body in that question, again, as we said, Durask, when he portrays himself in totally different styles within the space of a few years, who am I, and is it something that can actually be defined and grasped, or is it the I in performance? That all remains a question. And of course, gender turns to that question about what is being made, what do I want to make matter about the way I want to be seen as masculine or feminine or. Or trans or any type of orientation that is loaded with associations of gender and sexuality? And again, what's great is that it gets us into that really very vibrant and troubled, but also fun and surprising world of the Renaissance in new ways.
- [36:45]
Yana Byers
That feels like a very nice place to bring this conversation to a close. So I have just one more question. What are you working on now?
- [36:53]
Yulinka Rublak
I'm working on a global history of fashion that starts in the Tang period, so around 7, 800 in China, and ends with the empires of cotton. But the focus is very much on the period from 1000 AD to 1800, because I argue that this is really the time where fashion has incredible global importance and is a driver of globalization in ways we're only beginning to see now.
- [37:30]
Yana Byers
Yeah. And there's some really good work that's happening around this question right now, and I will very much look forward to reading this book.
- [37:38]
Yulinka Rublak
Thank you so much.
- [37:40]
Yana Byers
Thank you so much for joining me today. It was an absolute delight to talk to you.
- [37:44]
Yulinka Rublak
You. Thank you so much for having me.
- [37:46]
Yana Byers
These rare moments when I get to talk to some of my academic heroes are, are, are fantastic. I feel very fortunate. So thanks again.
- [37:54]
Yulinka Rublak
Was fantastic.
- [37:56]
Yana Byers
All right, have a lovely day. Thanks much.
- [37:58]
Yulinka Rublak
Thank you so much.
- [38:13]
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