Weila Gong, "Implementing a Low-Carbon Future: Climate Leadership in Chinese Cities" (Oxford UP, 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Weila Gong, "Implementing a Low-Carbon Future: Climate Leadership in Chinese Cities" (Oxford UP, 2025)
Date: December 24, 2025
Host(s): Jessica DeCarlo ("A"), Seth Schindler ("C")
Guest: Weila Gong ("B"), Visiting Scholar at UC Davis and Non-Resident Fellow at UC San Diego

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into Weila Gong's forthcoming book Implementing a Low-Carbon Future: Climate Leadership in Chinese Cities, exploring how Chinese cities and their mid-level bureaucrats drive climate action within the context of China’s evolving role as a global climate leader. The discussion unpacks the mechanisms, challenges, and innovations within subnational governance that enable or impede the translation of policy experiments into concrete climate action, and considers the impact of international collaboration and geopolitics on China’s climate trajectory.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Genesis of the Book and Focus on Mid-Level Bureaucrats

• Emergence of Subnational Governance (04:35–07:34)
  • Weila Gong was intrigued by the increasingly proactive role of Chinese local governments in climate action since 2010.
  • Traditionally seen as barriers to environmental protection (due to local economic priorities), these regions have begun to support climate initiatives.
  • Gong’s fieldwork challenged the assumption of China’s purely top-down governance, revealing heterogeneity: “It’s not like the case as we assume about the top-down approach. It’s actually a lot of those engagement have been very various across regions.” (B, 06:13)
  • Critical insight: It's often the mid-level bureaucrats—not just top leadership (mayors, party secretaries)—who are instrumental in implementing climate policies.

2. Bridging Leadership and Its Importance

• Bridging Leaders as Catalysts (07:34–11:04)
  • The concept of "bridging leadership" refers to mid-level bureaucrats who sustain and advance climate initiatives as high-ranking leaders rotate.
  • Only a small minority of global (less than 10%) local climate pledges are on track, underscoring the importance of durable subnational leadership.
  • “Because of the middle level bureaucrats, they are the ones actually knows a lot about how to gain political support and build local implementation alliance.” (B, 09:29)
  • Three strategies identified by bridging leaders:
    1. Convincing top political leaders about the importance of low-carbon actions.
    2. Creating a group of trained personnel who devise and execute solutions.
    3. Building alliances to overcome resistance from vested interests.

3. Policy Experimentation in Chinese Cities

• Low-Carbon City Pilot Programs (11:04–15:10)

  • Policy experimentation—testing locally before scaling nationally—is a core governance strategy in China.
  • The National Low Carbon City Pilot program (since 2010): over 80 pilot cities, each experimenting with customized climate solutions.
  • Local governments have substantial leeway to set targets and test policies across sectors (industry, transport, energy).
  • Outcomes have been mixed, with variance in institutionalization and regulatory follow-through noted.

• Notable Examples (15:56–19:47)

  • Shenzhen: Launched the first local emission trading system, requiring 700+ industrial entities to participate and begin carbon accounting/reduction.
    • “Shenzhen was able to promote such program without a prior previous experience, mainly because of the local government leadership, particularly… the middle level bureaucrats.” (B, 16:39)
  • Nanchang: An inland, less affluent city, innovated by legislating for low-carbon development, creating annual research budgets and incentives for industry.
    • Demonstrates that not only wealthy cities participate in environmental leadership.
  • Both cases exemplify how local ingenuity, political support, and creative policymaking—often led by bridging bureaucrats—drive unique, locally relevant outcomes.

4. Impacts of Geopolitics and International Engagement

• Role of International Cooperation (20:33–27:28)
  • International partnerships have been crucial for local officials to learn about climate policy mechanisms and for capacity building.
  • Joint programs (e.g., with German development agencies) have shaped local understanding and policy design.
  • Shifting US-China relations influenced subnational collaboration: periods of cooperation under the Obama and Biden administrations were interrupted during the Trump era.
    • Recent signs of renewed partnership, such as MOUs between California and Chinese provinces, exist despite broader tensions.
  • Challenge remains in scaling local innovations without strong ongoing national support.

5. Subnational Climate Action and Geostrategy

• Cities' Role in Geostrategy (27:28–31:25)
  • Unlike the US, where cities may be mobilized for geostrategic aims, in China local initiatives remain primarily domestically focused, serving as laboratories for policy and capacity-building.
  • However, partnerships (e.g., Shanghai–Long Beach on green shipping) persist, reflecting flexibility at the subnational level even amid centralized national politics.
    • “Even in a centralized political system like China […] in dealing with the kind of climate challenges and also give rooms for those cities and provinces and continue their collaboration with the international partners is very impressive to me.” (B, 29:26)

6. Issues of Subnational-Federal Relations

• “Campaign-Style” Implementation and Over-Ambition (32:27–37:39)

  • China sometimes sees local governments over-committing to ambitious targets (“campaign-style implementation”), leading to problems in balancing economic and environmental goals.
    • The central government is vigilant about localities shutting down polluters too aggressively or over reporting success.
  • Challenges include scaling pilot initiatives and ensuring enough trained personnel for data accuracy and policy follow-through. Not all cities have dedicated climate agencies.
  • Progress is marked: from no climate institutions at provincial level in 2010 to nearly all provinces having a climate department by 2018.

• Coal and Energy Security (37:39–39:25)

  • Energy security concerns, especially post-Russia/Ukraine crisis, have elevated coal's status, sometimes pulling cities away from more ambitious green transitions.
  • Transition is harder in coal-dependent regions, which face competing demands from central authorities.

7. Closing Reflections on China as a Climate Leader

• Holistic View of Leadership (39:25–41:16)

  • Leadership should be judged not just by technological achievement in green sectors (EVs, solar, wind), but in durable, wide-reaching implementation and capacity-building at all levels.
  • International community should strive for nuanced understanding and create space for China to share its climate governance lessons.

  “If China can become a global leader in addressing climate change, it also needs to be delivered in its implementation on the ground.” (B, 39:36)

  “Important question… is how the international community can also create more space for China to really tell the story [of] what is actually work in its years of … climate policy.” (B, 40:41)

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Notable Quotes

• "We tend to believe that all the orders from Beijing…can be implemented by the local government…but it’s not like the case as we assume about the top-down approach. It’s actually a lot of those engagement have been very various across regions."
  — Weila Gong (06:13)

• "Only less than 10% of those local areas in the regions are on track achieving some of their target…That points to the kind of subnational climate leadership."
  — Weila Gong (08:12)

• “Shenzhen was able to promote such program without a prior previous experience, mainly because of the local government leadership, particularly because of the middle level bureaucrats...”
  — Weila Gong (16:39)

• "Subnational engagement… has also been affected by the Moife rocking relationship among big countries including US and China."
  — Weila Gong (23:03)

• “Even in a centralized political system like China…[it is] very impressive to me [that] those cities and provinces continue their collaboration with international partners.”
  — Weila Gong (29:26)

• “If China can become a global leader in addressing climate change, it also needs to be delivered in its implementation on the ground.”
  — Weila Gong (39:36)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:35 – Gong discusses her research genesis and the role of mid-level bureaucrats
• 07:34 – Explanation of bridging leadership and strategies for durable climate policy
• 11:04 – Overview of China’s policy experimentation via Low-Carbon City Pilots
• 15:56 – Notable city-level policy initiatives (Shenzhen, Nanchang)
• 20:33 – Impacts of geopolitics and international cooperation on subnational climate action
• 27:28 – Discussion of cities’ strategic use in nation’s broader agendas
• 32:27 – “Campaign-style” implementation, policy scaling, and institutional capacity at the city level
• 37:39 – The tension between energy security and decarbonization
• 39:25 – Final reflections on China’s climate leadership and global expectations

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Tone and Style

The conversation remains scholarly, empirical, and practical in tone, refraining from polemic or broad generalizations. The hosts and guest focus on policy complexities, governance dilemmas, and the functional realities facing Chinese localities, while emphasizing the importance of nuance and local agency within a centralized system.

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Memorable Moment

Jessica’s observation brings the episode's theme into focus:
“I wish you could expand this to every single major city in the country because I’m so interested in these differences at the city level, and then how these very local bureaucrats end up transforming what…will eventually potentially be national level climate policies.” (A, 19:47)

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For listeners seeking insights into how Chinese cities are actually implementing climate policy and the real inner workings of subnational governance, this episode is an instructive, nuanced, and timely resource.

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

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[C]

Hello and welcome back to the podcast of the Second Cold War Observatory. I'm Seth Schindler and I'm joined today as usual with Jessica DeCarlo. How are you, Jess?

[B]

Hey, Seth.

[A]

I'm doing well. How are you doing on this fall evening?

[C]

Yeah, I'm doing fine. I'm in Manchester, so evening starts at around three in the afternoon and then it's night by about four o'.

[B]

Clock.

[A]

These days I'm waiting for that. We just had our first snow at the house, so I'm very ready for the winter and the nesting. And it always increases my reading.

[C]

Does it? Yeah, yeah. Thinking positively. That's good. What are you reading these days, Jess?

[A]

Oh, I've been deep in several climate books. I've been paying attention to a lot of the the cop happenings recently and I've been returning to fossil capitalism. So really into those questions at the moment. How about you?

[C]

I'm reading the book that I guess has gotten a lot of press coverage lately. I deliver parcels in Beijing by Hu and Yat. So yeah, it's well worth it. I won't spoil it, but it's definitely worth worth the read.

[A]

It's on my list, so maybe we can talk about it on here sometime.

[C]

Yeah, that would be wonderful. But it sounds like the books that you are reading are more relevant to today's discussion.

[A]

Yes, a lot of what I've been focused on is around climate. So at the time of recording this episode, it's actually the 30th annual UN Climate Summit, COP30. It's happening in Brazil. And China's really stepping into a more visible, assertive role as a climate technology power and diplomatic actor there. So sort of making the case that its dominance in renewables and electric vehicles and different technologies really gives it the structural power in the energy transition. So I'm following that closely. And related to today's topic, you know, when we think about climate leadership in China, meetings like COP or Big Emissions Targets or national pledges tend to come to mind. But really important parts of China's climate agenda also unfold in hundreds of cities and counties across the country. So some of the most consequential work I would argue depends on these sub national governance initiatives in China. China and today we're really lucky to have someone on to talk through that subnational governance and the mid level bureaucrats that make it possible. Today we're going to be talking with author Weila Gong about China's role as a climate leader and the domestic dynamics that make that possible. Wayla is a visiting scholar at UC Davis's center for Environmental Policy and Behavior and a non resident fellow at UC San Diego's 21st Century China Center. She's had fellowships at Georgetown, Harvard and UC Berkeley School of Law. And she has over a decade of experience working on the politics and policies of low carbon energy transitions. Welcome and thanks so much for being here, Wayla.

[B]

Yes, thank you, Jessica.

[A]

So let's just get started and jump into questions about this book. My first one's a broad one. Can you tell us about the genesis of the book and where your interest in these mid level bureaucrats really started?

[B]

Yeah, thank you for this question. So I have started looking at the role of subnational government, particularly from the perspective of implementation, since the subnational government emerges as a more active role in China's climate dominance around the time of 2010. So I was really curious to learn, okay, why those local areas and the regions are becoming more interested in dealing with climate challenges. Because as we know in the literature of Chinese climate politics, local governments and those local areas and the regions tend to be the barriers for environmental protection because they sometimes, and also most of the time probably more kind of prioritize their local economic development. So that really kind of bring me to the attention of the more growing interest from the subnet national level in dealing with climate challenges. Then I also started to look at the local implementation, the kind of uneven policy local implementation because we know China is a very large country. So we tend to believe that all the orders like from Beijing, they can be implemented by the local government because China is more of a centralized political system. But as I observe the implementation of those low carbon city palate, I find that okay, it's not like the case as we assume about the the top down approach. It's actually a lot of those engagement have been very various across regions. So that I started to come up with okay, how can we understand the makes the policy implementation across regions in China's centralized political system then? Yeah, I over the year of I think from 2002 to 2018, I have conducted several rounds of interviews then going to those local areas in the regions, particularly those pilot regions to understand how the more of the implementation process then I find, okay, it's not only the mayors and party secretaries. We tend to believe they are the most important persons, local decision making important, the middle level bureaucrats. They are actually the ones who have played a very important role in driving the implementation. So that helps us to understand how those climate pledges can be translated into sustainable low carbon policy actions on the ground.

[C]

Will, I really liked this notion of bridging leaders or bridging leadership. You describe in the book how this mid level cadre of city level bureaucrats is so important to subnational governance and climate change mitigation. Can you explain a little bit more about this concept of bridging leadership?

[B]

Yeah, I think the importance of regional leadership really help us to understand so how can we make climate policy durable? Because we know that across the world There are over 3,000 local areas that regions have pledged climate targets. But actually recent research also shows that Only less than 10% of those local areas in the regions are on track achieving some of their target. So that really points us to the question so how those climate ambition or climate targets can be implemented on the ground. That points to the kind of subnational climate leadership. But we tend to believe okay, if a region or a city can be really successful, that is very much dependent on whether they have like a strong political leaders such as mayor. But one thing also very common to those cities or local initiatives is many years they change their position from time to time. Then when the predictor nervo happens, that can also become some of the biggest challenging time for those cities continue to deliver their climate goals in the process. So I think region leadership really help us to think about how those Areas and regions can overcome the challenges in the changes in political leadership then because of the middle level bureaucrats, they are the ones, they spend their entire, almost their entire career in their locality. So they are the ones actually knows a lot about how to gain political support, support and build local implementation alliance. So through this research I actually identified three strategies that those local bureaucrats as well as those bridge leaders have employed in the implementation process, including convincing their political leaders of the importance of low carbon actions. Second, creating a group of trained personnel so they are the ones who can help those bridging leaders to identify policy solutions to policy challenges and building implementation alliance in the implementation process to overcome the potential opposition from the best interest. So my book really shows that the importance of those region leaders in initiating and sustaining those low carbon actions, but also the strategies that those capable bridging leaders have developed to make climate policy actions durable on the ground.

[A]

So I'm very convinced by the central role of bridging leaders and I'd love to discuss what sorts of low carbon programs that are actually supporting in these different places. So for our listeners, if they don't know, policy experimentation is a key governance tool in China and it's used to test and refine policies at the local level before they're rolled out at the national level. So an example for our listeners would be Shenzhen. It was the first special economic zone in the country and it served as an early test bed for market oriented reforms. So Weila, you're talking about low carbon programs and policy experimentation. What are some of the low carbon or climate programs that are happening at these kind of local and city levels that you saw?

[B]

Yeah, so the subnational level government joined national movement. The subnational government started to respond to climate challenges in China around the year 2000 and tens. And I think in contrast to the national government engagement in international negotiation for almost decades, the national government started to engage in addressing climate change through those policy experimentation, particularly the one that centers in my book which is called National Low Carbon City Pilot program. So from 2010 to 2018, there are more than 80 low carbon city pilots across China. So almost every province has one or two low carbon pilot cities. So through this experimentation, the national government actually granted a largely way to local areas and regions in terms of target setting and the different policy solutions those local areas and regions want to experiment across industrial, transportation and energy sectors. The majority major goal of the low carbon policy experimentation program is to really help the national government to find paths to achieve low carbon development. For anyone knows Chinese political system, we tend to believe that China is a centralized political system but actually it also has the element of multi level governance. So for experimenting new ideas before scaling up to national level or nationwide, the Chinese national government often use policy experimentation to test feasible policy solutions. So since 2010 there are over 80 local areas and regions joining the pilot program with the goal to test the feasible policy solutions for low carbon development, meaning decoupling the economic growth from the increased consumption of fossil fuels. So in my book I actually documented the implementation process of four low carbon pilot cities through a process of eight years of policy implementation from picking up the ideas forming the specific policy solutions across the industrial, energy and building sectors. So, and my research also shows that over the whole implementation process, actually local areas regions has demonstrate have demonstrated mixed policy outcomes in terms of the level of policy institutionalization, the legislation, standards and the regulations.

[C]

That's fascinating. Wela, can you tell us a little bit about some of the main policies that were tried? I love this notion of policy experimentation and the fact that so many cities are participating and trying different policies. And there are many different ways that a city could go about trying to meet these targets. For example, it could give, I don't know, tax breaks to consumers to encourage them to buy electric vehicles. It could develop a carbon credit scheme or force companies that are based there to participate in national carbon credit schemes. There are many different ways you can go about trying to achieve these objectives. What are some of the most popular for cities in China and which ones proved to be particularly successful or challenging?

[B]

Right? Yeah, I think that's correct. So through the low carbon pilot policy experimentation, local areas and regions, including the case cities examined in this book, have promoted various policy initiatives. I want to give you some examples such as in the case of Shenzhen. So Shenzhen launched China's first local low carbon emission trading system. So the low carbon emission trading system aims to motivate those those heavy carbon emitters, particularly in the industrial sectors, to pursue carbon emission reduction behaviors. So Shenzhen was able to promote such program without a pre orio previous experience, mainly because of the local government leadership, particularly because of the middle level bureaucrats who was able to win the support support from the mayor as well as create a local trained personnel to study the design of Shenzhen emission trading system as well as work with the local legislators to push legislation which requires over 700 of industrial entities to join the program. So even though a lot of those industrial entities hadn't heard a lot about carbon emission reductions before, but through the government program with the marketing mechanism, actually they are, they were starting to do the carbon inventory and also participate in the carbon emission reduction process. Another example I want to share with you is Nanchang. Nanchang is a inland city. So usually we tend to see it as economically lacking areas. Then even though we assume that only those economic advanced areas that regions are more willing to participate, like environmental protection and also decarbonization, Nanchang actually set a very innovative sample. So Nanchang was the was among some of the first cities that was able to push a legislation on low carbon development. So that means it allocated a budget, annual budget for promoting low carbon research as well as provide incentives for those industry to promote low carbon innovations. So so particularly through legislation with the support of local people's congress. So we see that even in those like economic lacking areas, we tend to believe they are lacking of financial and critical resources. They also try to be creatively to think about how they can mobilize more support societally and also across industrial sectors to work more on reducing carbon emissions. This message may be shocking to many millennials. If you are one, you might want to sit down. Right now loads of people are searching the following on low rise jeans, halter top, velour, tracksuit, puka shell necklace, disc belt. You likely place these in the dark of your closet in 2004, never to be seen again. But if you can find it in yourself to dust them off, there are a lot of people who will give you money for them. Sell on depop where taste recognizes taste.

[A]

I find this so fascinating and I wish you could expand this to every single major city in the country because I'm so interested in these, these differences at this kind of city level and then how these very local bureaucrats end up transforming what, you know, will eventually potentially be national level climate policies. So I'm curious, this fieldwork was done in, you know, 2013, 2018, and there's been so many changes in the world geopolitically in China's role in climate in US China relations. And I'm wondering how you're thinking about the role of China's subnational climate policies today, especially given, you know, the cop 30 that's happening right now and how China's an emergent climate leader.

[B]

Yeah, I think this is a great question. So in my book actually I documented how the international cooperation actually has motivated the Chinese government in participating international climate negotiations and has changed its position from skeptical towards the judgment thing, climate change to more becoming more increasingly practitioners and also potential leaders in directing global efforts in addressing climate change. So my research shows that for almost all the local areas in the regions when they started to look at climate policy solutions, they all got some forms of international exposure either through those training programs such as the German Corporation for International Development worked with the national government to help those local areas and regions to build local capacity for understanding what is climate change and also help those local officials to get a better understanding about the different policy mechanism including the carbon emission trading system. So the international engagement and also the international exposure are very important for those like local areas and regions to keep learning new ideas and also seek new knowledge and solutions in dealing with common challenges across local areas and the regions including like those areas such as building transportation, energy sector. So we also find that the subnational engagement in addressing climate change have also been affected by the Moife rocking relationship among big countries including US and China. So if we thought back to the Moife subnational engagement as my book documented. So in 2015. So US and Chinese side particularly the cities are very interesting in building partnership. Particularly when US and China started to think about how to cooperate under Obama administration. But then because of the Trump administration those kind of national level dialogue get disrupted. So. So actually I didn't find more any follow ups from the Chinese side and figured out how those like the the communication and also the the agreement to work together with US cities actually achieved any results. Then also after that the Biden administration withdraw in the Paris agreement. Then the U.S. china also agreed to seeking new development of some national collaboration under Glasgow agreement. But then also we haven't really seen much of progress in that direction because I think the climate change has been increasingly seen as a area of competition rather than cooperation. Particularly because of the green technology industry. And then after Pelosi's visit to Taiwan, I think Chinese government actually blocked the continued dialogue between the two countries including climate issues until 2023. The governor of the California governor Newsom visit Beijing. Then the subnational government in China cited several mous with the California government in thinking about how to decarbonize in a lot of issue areas including the shipping areas, how to facilitate learning on cap and trade mechanism. So now we still see there is like no balance saying okay, subnational level cannot cooperate on the climate issue. But more I think the challenges comes from the multi level governance. And so we still see can see like some national level they continue to developing like new initiatives as well. As you can see China the National Development and Reform Commission also promote trying to promote more than 100 carbon picking palates across local areas and regions. But then I think the challenge is like that how to scale those subnational initiatives when we are lacking of the national support. But I think the second point is that also really tells the importance of better understanding about domestic politics. So as you see in this cap 30 so the Chinese government has gained a lot of attention with the question whether China is poised to take global climate leadership. I think that is actually around the question about whether China is capable to deliver its climate ambition. So we tend to look at the kind of China's leadership in climate change through the industrial sector. So like EVs. But I think one thing we need to pay more attention is to look at their China's governance structure. So whether those local areas and regions can actually implement those climate goals also depended on the strength of the bureaucracy. Whether those local areas and regions have create the local capacity in terms of specialized group, including the group of trained personnel who are able to translate those targets into implementation, as well as whether the kind of institutionalization have been built to continue those low carbon actions in terms of regulation, standards and legislation, despite the changes in the political leadership or the geopolitics which sometimes can complicated the priority of energy policy agenda.

[C]

What do you think Weila, about cities being mobilized by Beijing in pursuit of China's broader geostrategic agenda? So in the Biden administration it was very clear that the State Department was working together with city governments in the United States in ways that supposedly would support the US foreign policy in a variety of ways. But you know, the State Department was seconding workers to different cities and so on. And to give one example, they might work together to facilitate reshoring certain strategic sectors to that city.

[B]

Right.

[C]

For example, to what extent does Beijing hope that cities will support its foreign policy objectives? Perhaps not by working with American cities, but working with other cities. Right. So does Shenzhen, for example, have a city to city program with a city, I don't know in Indonesia or Vietnam or Malaysia in a way that would perhaps on the one hand foster a green energy transition, but also align with China's objectives that we talked about, climate leadership and so on that we see at COP 30.

[B]

I would say China is to pretty much focus on how to implement its climate policy in terms of the role of thinking of subnational government is really as the ground to I first test innovative policy instruments. Then the second is really grounded low carbon climate capacity building. So I haven't really seen like China is really trying to use some national government particular cities as a way to influence other cities in other countries directly. But I'm very impressed in a way despite the rising geopolitical tensions among big countries like China, US and to some extent also EU when it comes to the electronic vehicles, the Chinese government still allow those local areas and regions, including those provinces and cities, continue to engage with international actors in, in dealing with those challenges, including the one Shanghai is in partnership with the Long beach of California to building new forms of partnership to greening their shipping route. So I think that is also showing us that even in a centralized political system like China, we tend to believe that China is very skeptical towards international criticism and also scrutiny. But in dealing with the kind of climate challenges and also give rooms for those cities and provinces and continue their collaboration with the international partners is very impressive to me. So that shows that the climate change still remain important to the national government, no matter the kind of pressure from the international level. So as also the Chinese top political leader mentioned that so to addressing climate change is not just for like to dealing with the criticism from the national international level. It's really from the motivation China wanted to make its economic development model more efficient and take the advantages of promoting its green development model through various different I think strategies for including like the green industrialization as well as like thinking about some of the creative solutions can be tested from the local areas, the regions.

[A]

That was really clear. I think the US American subnational engagement with China has been really fascinating to watch from the climate side of things.

[B]

Anyway.

[A]

Seth, do you have another question you want to jump to?

[C]

I have one more question and you know, I'm seeing China through the lens of the United States and the politics that are playing out within the US and relationship between for example the federal government and cities. And certainly there's a discourse now from the current administration that some cities, democratic cities, quote unquote, are problematic. Right. And so this, there's a very strained relationship, to put it mildly, between cities like Portland and Chicago and now New York and Washington or the federal government. Is there anything comparable in China? I mean, do any of the cities either that you looked at or in general have a kind of mid level bureaucratic cadre that people in Beijing say, oh, these folks over there in that city, they're problematic. Do they have a bad reputation?

[B]

I think that is somewhat different from what I observed like in China. I didn't find that there are some of those criticism towards whether some of those areas are more willing to take the leadership, but more of at some point the Chinese government was cautious about the, they call it the campaign style implementation. So the local area regions, when they saw climate issue as A important top areas they tend to pledge ambitious climate goals. But actually that can lead to a lot of issues in terms of how those local areas regions can really think creatively or more promote those feasible policy solutions to balance the economic development, the need for economic development and also carbon emission reduction, the need for carbon emission reductions. So I think the government once cautious about too ambitious current plan just can really make those local government maybe shut down or the more high polluting industries that can cause some of the strain challenges in implementation so they it also sometimes called over implementation in China then. But I think the real challenges right now with China's climate governance when we think about the subnational level implementation, is about how those like lessons learned through those experimentation can be really scaled up. So I think my research also shows that there wasn't a very systematic examination of all the lessons. And also there are rooms when we continue the improving of the governing structure. Because not every cities like in China, like Shenzhen or Zhenjia that was able to create the agency fully responsible to follow through the implementation of those climate targets. So that means there is still rooms to improve the accuracy of the data because you need trained personnel to collect the data. So that is also what the national government recently issued new policy towards Moifei building up the statistics. Right. So that can help to improve the data quality collected from the local areas regions then I think the thing is China has made huge progress in terms of improving its climate governance. Because when I started my research in 2010, there are almost no climate institutions except the Department of Climate Change under the formal which was formerly under the Department and the Reform Commission and some of the think tanks and also the national leadership for addressing climate change. But when I almost finished my research around 2018, almost every province has created eight Department of Climate Change supervising the climate related issue. But that is not the case at the city level or the city level below. So I think then when we think about the politics, political system and the domestic politics in China, we know that local governments are very busy. So they are dealing with different priorities, sometimes competing priorities from the higher level of government. If we do not have specialized agency with trained personnel to carry out those pledges into everyday work, I think that also creates uncertainty how much those climate pledges can be implemented on the ground. I think the second challenge is also with the geopolitics. Right now we've seen at an international level is the policy focus of domestic energy policy agenda. So we know that even though China is continuing to pursue its climate agenda, its coal consumption hasn't slowing down. So my research also shows that the kind of intensified geopolitics at the international level, particularly after Russian Ukraine war, the trans government actually also elevated its priority on energy security. So meaning elevated the importance of coal in ensuring the energy systems security.

[C]

Sorry. So that would be a really interesting example then of how the geopolitics then drives the city politics. Did any of the cities that were pursuing green energy transitions get discouraged from doing so?

[B]

That's true. That's also what I concerned when I continue watch subnational engagement in dealing with climate challenges. But at some time they are also asked to elevated their attention on energy security by maintaining the consumption of or maintaining the supply of coal, particularly in those cool regions. Because in my book I focus on the motivate champions of climate actions. They are the areas they are not at least that you're economic, local, domestic so local economic development are not related on the fossil fuel production but they are also local areas. The regions they are co rich regions. They in the transpolitical system. Right. They also pledged to transitioning away from the independence of fossil fuel consumption. But as the energy security concerns elevated at the national level, they also have to maintain their supply. So that created challenges for areas like in Mongolia and also Shanxi in China. So we can see the complexity of those local areas, the regions in counting when the priority of domestic energy policy agenda.

[A]

So to wrap up, given the changing geopolitics and China's place at the current cop, can you leave us with some closing thoughts on China as a climate leader?

[B]

So I think it's important to think about China's climate leadership not only just from the green industrial policy, like how much green products it has produced or its dominance in the wind, the solar as well as the electronic vehicle sector. But also to think about if China can become a global leader in addressing climate change, it also needs to be delivered in its implementation on the ground. And also we've seen that the kind of development of China's industrial policy obviously give China more confidence in coming to the COP to discuss about the importance of addressing climate change. But also at the same time we see that it actually didn't substantially Also sometimes when the complexity of energy transition, when it comes to the conventional fossil fuels such as coal in the system, it did not entirely move the barriers somehow from the best interest in maintaining its interest in the energy system. So I think important question also asking for the international community is how the international community can also create more space for China to really tell the story. So what is actually work in its more years of the development of the climate solutions or climate policy. And I think that is also the book's purpose to really help us to understand what is actually China doing in dealing with that the the global challenging.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[C]

Thank you, Ayla. That was really excellent.

[B]

Yeah, thank you for the opportunity. Sam.