A (6:48)

Yeah, I actually want to go back to something you said about 2015. Right. So that's where things change and maybe would be useful for the listeners to understand what was the EU doing and the Italian coast guard doing before 2015 and what change then that then civilian organizations stepped in to fill that rescue gap, as you called it.

B (7:09)

Yeah, what happened was in 2015 there were more people coming to Europe and first Italy reacted with a, with a search and rescue program. What was not fully humanitarian, but it was a human, it was also military one. But this was called Mare Nostrum and they started with this and went out with this for one year and they rescued loads, loads of people and then they said they don't have enough money for that and they asked the EU community to support them and there was no support, no financial support whatsoever. So they stopped this program. And since then, yes, these deadly flights from Libya started become even more deadly and the numbers, they didn't go down. Some numbers went down on and down, but still. So that's when we as civil society jumped in and said, okay, we have to do something against this. I think one of the big images that everyone has is the Alankundi being. Yes. And this is something that everyone was really enraged and totally it was an outrage, a civil outrage also. But you know, nowadays it's really hard to get this kind of empathy in society for this fact. Yeah.

A (8:36)

And we'll go back to some of the more state led obstacles that you encounter, but I want to know how has your work changed in the 10 years since 2015 is pretty much the work stayed the same. You found that the obstacles have gone up or that you found more or less support. You mentioned just in your last answer, the empathy and potentially support from the public is not something you can take for granted. So has this changed the way you work or what you can do?

B (9:10)

Yes. So on one level the operational way, like the way we are in the Central med has changed, of course, because the first ships who went out, they didn't know how to rescue and what to do. So there has been a huge development in professionalization, let's say. So this is the one thing that improved. The situation is improved right now, of course. And I think we are really. And that's what we also want the authorities to know and to accept that we are really professional humanitarian workers in a way, knowing how search and rescue works. So it's even more, let's say, annoying or not understandable that. And this is now the other fact, the cooperation with us or the authorities, how they cooperate with us or not cooperate with us, is really a problem. So it's still, from the very beginning, and still is the case that the maritime law is not being followed by authorities naming, coordinating distress cases with us as organizations not forwarding us information about distress cases and not including us into this coordination. We found these cases by our own and we inform the so called coordination centers about distress cases and tell them, okay, now we are going to rescue them, please let us rescue them, which they have to, but it's not coming from the authorities. So this is the reluctance of cooperation is one point and hasn't changed. And on top, as you also mentioned, is the hindrance of what has happened is like, for example from Italy setting up administrative laws that make search and rescue much more difficult. And they are illegal because they don't comply with international law, in our view. But they made it in a very smart way, these administrative changes. But this makes our work much more difficult.

A (11:16)

Can you give an example, just to make it more, I guess, understandable for people that don't have a sense of what the cooperation could be and what the hindrances look like. So what kind of obstacles are they putting to you actually then working and rescuing people?

B (11:33)

So the example is Italy, after the far right government of Giorgio Meloni, they started to have administrative laws from the beginning of 2023. And these laws have the effect that we have to, which is a good thing. After a rescue, we have to go to a safe port. Port of safety is the name. Directly, immediately. This is a good thing because beforehand, sometimes we waited for these kind of safe ports in Italy for about two weeks or something. This was really not bearable for anyone and also not in line with maritime law. So now we have to go to a port of safety. But on the one hand, sometimes we are not allowed, this is said in the law, we are not allowed to rescue in between. So after one rescue we have to go, which we not always do, because we have to comply with maritime law saying that if Someone is in distress, we have to go there. But that could mean that we are detained in the end because of this law. And detained means that we have to pay huge fines, up to €60,000, and we are obliged to stay in Port for 20, 30 or 60 days. So in total, of the whole civil fleet, how we call it, 36 ships have been detained in the last year since beginning of 20, 23, 10 alone since this June. There's kind of a new wave of detentions right now happening. And this means in numbers that we lost more than 900 days of rescue activities since then. And this is politically wanted, you know, to draw us out of the central Mediterranean. And the second thing is that they, the authorities, it's the Ministry of Interior directing us to ports of safety, not the closest one as asked for in maritime law, but last time, for example, to Ravenna, which means five more days of navigating and not being in the rescue area. So this is really a new level of hindrance. And one more thing next to the hindrance, and this is also connected to EU politics, is the actions that the so called Libyan Coast Guard mainly is doing against search and rescue organizations ships in the Mediterranean and also the refugees, mainly the refugees who are in the boats. Yeah, I just leave it to this.

A (14:10)

But I guess, yeah, no, I wanted to actually ask more about the so called Libyan Coast Guard because there's news from late August about the Ocean Viking, one of your sister vessels that came under deliberate armed attack, or what it seems was deliberate armed attack by the Libyan Coast Guard. And I guess I wanted to ask you to explain to the listeners first of all, why it's more correct to say this so called Libyan Coast Guard. So who are they? What is this organization? Because like, you know, like I am Italian, I watch Italian news and the, you know, government friendly news, let's say, presents them as any other coast guard in a way, but they don't operate as such. So you can explain a little bit more about who they are, how they operate. And also why is that? Is there an escalation? Is this something that was happening before and just now hit the news, or is this a context that is empowering them to actually be more decisive in a way against the rescue vessels and against refugees and asylum seekers.

B (15:14)

So first of all, this attack is the first time that they shot directly at a ship and crew and survivors. So it's a peak of escalation, as we say. So it's, it's the first time that it happens that way, really on purpose, shooting at the ship. But at the same time it's kind of a. This violence by the so called Libyan Coast Guard is nothing new. It's been going on for years. So the so called Libyan coast guard, we call them like as this because we say it's an illegitimate actor in the central Mediterranean which is also been underlined by the Supreme Court, Italian Supreme Court and there has been other rulings saying that the Libyan coast guard is not an actor as it should be. Like the people saving people from others and conducting search and rescue because they are not equipped in a way they can do it. And this is another thing since Libya is in a. Yeah, some people don't say, but kind of is failed state and there's loads of. It's really, really difficult to understand what is going on there. But kind of a civil war between certain different actors, military actors with a high level of violence. And we know that the so called Libyan coast Guard are partly intertwined with militias and other actors. That's why they also have these weapons on board. The coast guard usually doesn't have weapons on board as far as I'm concerned. So we don't know who these people are that we see because we can see them, but they have threatened us beforehand several times. So also the refugees in the boats, not speaking of them, I mean it's going to be worse, much worse. So they have been shooting in the water close to us. They have thrown people into the water, they have driven dangerous maneuvers around our ships because we have the big ship, but we rescue people with small so called rips. So it's fast boats, these small ones. So it's really, really dangerous. And that's what they constantly are doing. And although these actors are acting and not only although the EU is still, you know, is accepting this and even more they have since 2015 they are supporting this whole system of maritime authorities, so called living coast guard coordination. They established, supported to establish the whole system in order to be able that people are in columns rescued by them, but actually they abduct them and bring them back to Libya also. It also happens with Tunisia right now, where they came from. And this is against the principle of non rufflement because you mustn't bring a person back people fleeing from a country where he or she can face violence, human rights violations, which is systematically the case in Libya. And this is all accepted and knowingly even supported by the EU and its member states. This is. Yeah, it's all intertwined, you know, and it's horrible this kind of responsibility that The EU has in this whole context.

A (18:46)

Yeah, and I wanted to go there next about the responsibilities of the EU because in a way for listeners would not be surprised about a government like in Italy being, you know, bad, a bad actor on migration. But the issue goes a little bit beyond one government. Right. Of course things can get worse as you've already described. But the European Union seems to have time and again prioritized migration deterrence over saving lives, so kind of human life. And so I wanted to, like you mentioned that there is a support by member states and by the EU for the so called Libyan Coast Guard or similar actors and also for, I would add the detention centers that have been kind of sprinkled around North Africa. Can you say a little bit more about that? So are they financing them directly, equipping them? What is this collaboration that in a way is refused to organizations like yours but then is given to these other actors that do active deterrence and use violence for that?

B (19:56)

Yeah, exactly. So there are bilateral corporations, for example, Italy and Libya has a corporation like a memorandum of understanding, for example, existing since 2017, which will be renewed in November. November. And we all try to, you know, also pressure, put pressure on the EU since it's also part of our work next to rescue, also to change political realities. We try to pressure EU at least to, you know, also pressure actually to not renew this. But it's, it's still, but we still try to, you know, make this topic huge. Especially because the attacks are a kind of a consequence of, you know, this whole role the eu, not only Italy exactly plays in the whole context. So the EU is basically having programs, development programs which they support the so called Libyan Coast Guard with money, financially and also with trainings and equipment. I mean in the case of the attack of the av, they could prove that the boat that the so called Libyan Coast Guard was driving was actually a part of the boats that Italy was giving to Libya. So it was the same kind of boat. So they, we could even see the intertwining. But you know, it's not only Italy and the EU is supporting this and they want to have these alliance with Libya because they do want to prevent people from fleeing to Europe and do anything for that. And what they say, they say it's okay, people shouldn't drown, so people shouldn't flee. And yeah, so this is their argumentation and they say if less people flee, less people die. But this is not the case. It's just people flee anyways, partly because if they are stuck in Libya, for example, There is no other way out but being in Libya. It's not that everyone is coming to Libya and saying, I want to go to Europe. There are people working there for ages. And then this war started and so on, and people are getting into these detention centers, whatever, and the only way is to get out of there is to go over Jesus to the of the sea border. So the only thing that will happen is not less people are fleeing, but more human rights violation will happen and more people will die. And this is what we are telling the EU in a way for ages. But yeah, as you said, this, as we say closed door policy is above, I don't know the principles that the EU has, like respecting human rights, promoting human rights. And this is not the case anymore. And this is really, really worrying.

A (22:54)

Yeah. And I think it's also not great news. The reform of the common European asylum system that was adopted by the European Parliament in April this year. I think it comes into effect next year, sometime in 2026. Is that going to make things worse? My understanding is that it makes asylum procedures tighter, so more difficult to people to get asylum. But what is your reading? How are you discussing this reform between you, like in your organization and what that will mean for you and for of course, the people fleeing.

B (23:30)

So basically when this whole reform started, we were also thinking about what would be the effect. But it's really more human rights being violated, the right for asylum. For us the effect might be enough. For the refugees the effect is worse. And for us the effect might be that these humanitarian spaces that they are shrinking right now, as you also said. So in a way it's also about democracy. To come back to your topic, but I think this will be an effect that we have because we would still, since we say there won't be less people fleeing, it's going to be just harder and more dangerous for people fleeing. And also for our work, we have less support, political support and more hindrances that will happen. I think that will happen at the same time. So this is what I think will change and we will have more work, I guess, in witnessing and publishing human rights violations in a bigger scale. And the solution would be legal pathways. But you know, this is a demand that becomes more and more utopic, let's say.

A (24:48)

Yeah, I wanted to ask. I understand. And as with democracy, and this is, I don't think unrelated, the humanitarian space and the right for movement and for migration are shrinking. So I'm not seeing a trajectory that goes better. But I wanted to ask towards the end Also about possible solutions. So, of course, legal roots has been a request forever and the country has happened. Is there any other solution or patch that can be put to the current situation? Or also actors that are actually in the political space in Europe, they are supportive, they have some leverage and some willingness to try and push for better, a better solution.

B (25:35)

Our demands will remain. And what we are doing, for example, for, for ages, asking for this kind of. Or again, a European search and rescue program, which is not the root of the whole problem, but we will keep on demanding and we will try to put pressure still. And what we also do is solutions in a way, but we will show that there are options and it's a question of political will. And there are options like this European search and rescue program and what we also asked to end any kind of these cooperations with Libya, same with Tunisia, because same pattern happened there. It's. It's a different kind of country, but it's also a country where more human rights relations happened and where the EU supported search and rescue zone, meaning also a search and rescue coordination center and so on, and coast guards who are violating international law by pulling back people illegally. So this is getting more, but this is what we aim for. So this is the political demands and at the same time, what we can do as civil society, keep the topic alive and make people being interested in that and being outraged about the fact that people are dying in front of our door. I mean, also in politics, there are people who are supporting this topic becoming less or not less, but the other side is becoming more. But still we are trying to do that on every level. And we work very well together as the whole civil fleet. You know, we are collecting our, our forces, let's say. And what we do now, it's not a solution either, but we will bring out a new ship next year. We just published that last week, a sailing rescue ship between Tunisia and Lapidusa, because there's also a huge rescue gap that we identified. And again, we will witness and bear witness to what is happening there so that people know about what is happening, that it's not, you know, can't be overseen by anyone. So this is all the things that we are trying to do in order to make the situation better.

A (27:48)

Yeah, and one thing I wanted to highlight about your request to stop these collaborations with countries in North Africa, especially for this route at least, is that with one hand, the European Union is trying to. Or talking about supporting democracy in a context, global context of authoritarian rights and autocratization. But then with the Other hand financing actors, they are authoritarian and are repressing civil liberties also among their own citizens and of course of then kind of migrants and asylum seekers. And so this actually undermines democracy projection that the European Union claims at least to be interested in. And there is in the interest also of European Union citizens. So we don't have a lot of time left. But I wanted to, I guess close by asking, I suspect that like me, many listeners will feel very disheartened by this. So in our name people are being put in situations that lead to their death. So what can people do? So if listeners want to do something about death, is there anything that civilians can do?

B (29:01)

First of all, it's already a good thing to listen to really deal with this topic because it's not an easy topic and it's pretty easy to not look at it in a way if you want to decide that. So it's huge. Thank you to everyone who's listening and dealing with the topic as well as you are and spreading the news. I think this is something you can always do. Following us also as rescue organizations, following us, our actions and yes, disseminate our calls and news. And for example, we have volunteer groups only in Germany right now. But you know, there are several people being active in this and of course we search and rescue is quite costs a lot of money because being in the central Mediterranean is like having operating a rescue ship is really, really cost worthy. So you know, just giving money by giving money it helps us a lot already to being able to operate further. For example, keeping all these, as I said, the legal cases, we are also doing a lot of legal cases recently trying to go against every decision which is in our eyes illegal. And we win a lot of cases but also costs a lot of money. So this is something which is really supportive and as you said, disheartening. I know that. And at the same time it's really, it's encouraging to know that like there is civil society rescuing loads of people. So I think we were, I think 130,000 people have been rescued by the whole civil fleet in the last 10 years. And this is something, you know, it's a huge number of people and it's an achievement and it's, you know, people don't feel left alone. And this is a message I, I would like also to pass on here.

A (30:50)

Thank you. So unfortunately there's always time for today, but listeners who want to know more can find the link to SOS Humanities website in the show notes and thank you so much. Yana for joining us and for the work you and your colleagues do on SOS Humanity. Thanks a lot.

B (31:06)

Thank you very much.

A (31:08)

Bye. Thank you for listening to the People Power Politics Podcast brought to you by sedar, the center for For Elections, Democracy, Accountability and Representation at the University of Birmingham. To learn more about our Centre and the exciting work we do on these issues around the world, please follow us on Twitter edarbham and visit our website using the link in the podcast description. Sa.