Dan (2:36)

Wings of Desire.

Mike (2:37)

Wings of Desire, directed by Wim Wenders, came out in the late 80s, I think 1988.

Dan (2:43)

87. 87.

Mike (2:44)

87. And starring Bruno Gantz, who I'm sure we'll have occasion to run into later because, uh, he's a very fine actor. Um, Dan, I I feel like I sprung this on you out of nowhere because of. It was a listener request and I, I just wanted it in the queue. So in part one, we always do our overall impressions of the film, but the guy that gets sprung on goes first. So, Dan, I have no idea what you're going to say about Wings of Desire. Go.

Dan (3:09)

So this movie, first of all, it's, you know, this is high expressionism. You gotta be in the mood for it. You have to be in the mood for it. It's more like a painting than a movie, you know, the way a tone poem is more like whatever a tone poem is than a song. So you have to, you have to go into it knowing that kind of thing. So there's a couple things that, that I, that I liked about it almost after it was over. So you're watching the movie and you're trying to process things and you kind of catch on to the world like, oh, that's, oh, the angels can't interrupt or the angels can't do this. Like you think there's going to be some kind of plot, but there barely is. You know, angel falls in love with human girl and wants to become a human so he can love her back and see what that's like. That's it. And that actually could be enough for a screwball comedy or other movies, which I'm sure we'll talk about. But the movie's not, it's not really about that.

Dan (3:56)

It's almost like this machine that you put yourself through and then four days later you're at a red light and you say, oh, that's true. Oh yeah, yeah, that's true too. Yeah, that's kind of interesting. Like it kind of stays with you in a very, very interesting way. So here's a couple of things to think about that just to kind of spring them on you and see what you think. First of all, angels in movies, right? So you think about. I'm thinking about Clarence and It's a Wonderful Life. We've done A Matter of life and Death where the angels are all like bureaucrats, right? James Mason and Buck Henry in Heaven Can Wait. In movies, angels are Cary Grant and the Bishop's Wife, right? They're always these like wise, heavenly creatures or like these, these like kind of ambassadors from heaven and their job is to kind of like help out a screw up, whether it's Jimmy Stewart or Warren Beatty or something. But here, David, David, what's, what's interesting about it, which you catch on to about half an hour to the Movies, they can't do anything. Their job is just to watch. And they kind of. I guess they. They're. They're like sending field notes back to God or something. But they're all there on Earth, and maybe you have a take on this just to watch. They've been there forever. Like, they say when we saw when the rivers were created, right? They've seen everything. They can get close to people, but they're kind of powerless. There's the one part where the guy's going to commit suicide, right? Now, if Tom Hanks is that angel, that guy is not jumping off the building, right?

Mike (5:14)

But he's getting caught at the last second.

Dan (5:16)

He's getting caught last second. He lands on a canopy or something, right? But, you know, his. His Damio, the main guy, Bruno Gantz, his. His partner, keeps saying, you have to keep your distance. You have to keep your distance. You're not allowed to get involved. So that's kind of like why in the beginning, say, third of the movie, there's all that camera point of view of the angels where, like, all of a sudden you're in someone's apartment and the camera's, like, swooping around, and I'm like, that's strange. And then you're like, oh, that's an angel. It's like an angel watching the people, right? So it's kind of funny. They're not guardian angels, but they're kind of like. Like they're doing field work. And. And the other thing that made me think about that was I thought it was cool that they all had their coats on. And I'm like, why do they all have their coats on the whole time? Like, what's that about right now? Of course, if this were. If Tom Hanks was an angel, he'd be wearing a tuxedo. Like. Like, right. Like, what are their coats on? I'm like, oh, it's because, like, they're not staying. Like, if someone came to your house, you would say, well, take your coat off for a while. But they're not comfortable where they are. Their job is just hover around. So I want to throw this back on you. I have more to say. But what was your take on, like, the role of the angels?

Mike (6:17)

Yeah, they're recording angels, right? So you might have heard that phrase, the recording angel. Who's. Whose job it is to just write down everything that you do. And they seem to be recording angels of the human impression, I think. I think because this movie. Movies linger in your mind as impressions, right? So we. We do A movie like Chinatown, for example, and you're at a red light later, and you think, oh, man, that's a great scene. Or that's a great line. Right. When you. When you sit in front of a movie, it kind of unravels itself in front of you, but then it gets compressed into some file format in your brain that sits with you. The lovely thing about this movie is, I think, because it privileges images over narrative, it actually is just a movie of impressions. And so I think that that's why people fall so wildly in love with it, because it lingers or it hovers around you in a way that a traditional narrative doesn't because you're. You're so caught up in its momentum.

Dan (7:15)

Yeah.

Mike (7:15)

This is a movie. The gambit of this movie is it has no momentum. Because it has. But Because.

Dan (7:21)

Deliberately so.

Mike (7:22)

Exactly. But because it has no momentum, each image just kind of sits with you the same way as though you were sitting in front of it. So you feel like you watch. You might feel like you watch Chinatown seven times, but you only saw it once because there's just so much. But this movie, you watch it one time, you feel like you saw it seven.

Dan (7:38)

Yeah. And it's funny what you say about watching movies, because you could watch a movie that's unbelievably suspenseful with a whole bunch of stuff happening in a really tight plot, but you could forget it. Like, it won't. It won't linger with you the next day when you're at work in front of your computer. Try to. But this one will. Like, this one will. The next day you're at work, you're in front of your computer, and you're like, actually, that's kind of why. And you just start thinking of, like, Bruno Gantz sitting on that statue.

Mike (7:59)

It just has. It has incredible compression, and it says the movie assumes that you're super smart. So let's. Let's. The first thing is, it does not. It does not condescend to its viewer at all. I mean, the first thing that you realize is that the only people that are looking at them directly are children, is that there's some kind of.

Dan (8:20)

And Peter Falk who can sense them. Who, we find out later, was an angel.

Mike (8:23)

Peter Falk, the fallen angel. Although at the end, we'll have to talk about the nature of fallenness and what's going on there.

Mike (8:32)

This movie asks a question which is, like, the last time your coat or your shirt, like, made your arm itch and you just kind of scratched it like this. Did you notice that that was happening, and it's like, what would it be like for you to just sit and notice that kind of thing for two hours? Would it fundamentally change you as a person? And the last thing is, of course, all these movies are about movies, right? Every Western is about the Western. Every Hitchcock film is about the movies, but this is about the camera as divine instrument. Because, of course, the ultimate recording angel is a camera. As a dolly slides through a scene and records it, it both is recording something that is happening, but the recording itself is an impression of creation, because the scene, as you see it, is only going to be from the point of view of the camera. So there's. There's something about the movies going on. I mean, this movie, if any movie, is really a love letter. You know, sometimes you watch a movie.

Dan (9:36)

And it's a love letter.

Mike (9:37)

It's a love letter to Manhattan. This is a love letter to the human experience.

Dan (9:42)

It is, but it's also the most. The most, you know, grim love letter to the human experience, for sure, at times. Because the other thing is that where the angels are, the other thing they made me think about is, well, what's Berlin like? Berlin is. It's purgatory. That's exactly what it is. It's not hell because there's flashes of joy and there's the circus and the children, right? But it's purgatory, right? That old man who's like. Like the reincarnation of Homer, like, walking around, I need to find Plotstomplets before I die. And he's going to the library, looking at, you know, pictures of the. Of the camps and stuff. He. He says. I think he's the one that says there are solitary flags everywhere. That's what Berlin is, is. No, nothing's. Everyone's got their own flag, and they're all solitary. And then later, when they're on the film set, they're talking about the extras and. And he says, oh, they're so. Extras are so patient. They just sit there and. And someone says, yeah, they're extra humans. And that's kind of like what Berlin is like. It's like they're just filled with these people who are like extra humans. And what are they? And so then I'm thinking, like, you know, the next day at work, I'm like, well, what do they all want? Like, what do they want? And they all want to be happy. They all want to be happy. And that's why in the movie, you know, as they keep looking up at airplanes, planes keep going Overhead, every once in a while, there's a helicopter. They keep looking up to the skies, up to the heavens. They want to fly out of here. And the one person who seems to do it is the trapeze artist who puts on fake wings and takes flight as an angel. So, of course, like, that's. She certainly catches Daniel's eye that way. But it's interesting that, like, the places, everyone's kind of stuck there, and they just. They just want something. That's another thing. For part one, I thought to myself is, why are they in the library? Why they was in the library. I thought that was a great touch. Right. And that. And that, like, one of the things that Daniel says is he wants to be surprised. He wants to say, aha, right? And they're never surprised by anything because they're immortal. They've seen everything. They know everything. Right? But we go to the libraries to get knowledge. Like, we want answers. We. We don't like surprises. We want to know things, right? And the angels are like, yeah, we know everything. But believe me, it's no great shakes.

Mike (11:45)

The thing that the angels are really interested in, none of them are reading books, obviously. They're all standing next to the people that are reading and experiencing.

Mike (11:57)

Okay, welcome back. So in part two, of course, we always talk about our key scenes or big moments. Dan, why don't you go first?

Dan (12:03)

My moment is when Daniel becomes human and he walks out with his outfit on, which is hilarious. That's a big gag. Sweater. And the tie and the hat and everything like that. That's like that. That really made me maybe laugh out loud. And my moment is, of course, the first thing he wants when he's a human is a cup of coffee. That's the first thing he wants. And you think, like, of all the things you can want, that's what, a cup of coffee. But of course, that's exactly what you would want, right? Because when you drink your first cup of coffee in the morning, it's like. Like as we are doing right now.

Mike (12:33)

It goes from black and white to color.

Dan (12:35)

Yeah, it sure does. Right? Exactly. It's like a little piece of heaven, right? It's a little piece of heaven. And, you know, he talks to Peter Falk and he's like, God, if you put a cigarette with them, it's. It's fabulous. And you make one line, then you make a lighter line, right? Then together, it's a good line. You got a good line. And, you know, you think about, why does he want to become human? It's not Just because he falls in love with the trapeze artist. It's because he wants it. He explains a lot of times in other parts in the movie, all the things he wants. And he says. And I know you love this line, he says, it'll be great to come home after a long day and feed the cat, like Philip Marlo. And he. He. He says, or to have a fever or to get your fingers black from the newspaper. So when I thought about this again, not during the movie, but later on, I thought back to a conversation I had with you, Mike. You.

Mike (13:21)

Oh, my.

Dan (13:22)

It had to be. It was over 10 years ago, easily. And I. I remember this conversation. I'm like, this is exactly that day. I was. I was with Mike. You and I were in Princeton, New Jersey. We were drinking coffee. And I said to you that there are times when I complain about things like the ink on your fingers or getting a fever or something stupid, right? And then all of a sudden, it seems like the universe puts something in your path, a reminder that you should kind of, like, pump the brakes and kind of chill out. And I said, you know, I always feel that way sometimes. And it actually makes me grateful because we all complain about a million things all day long, right? But then, like, you. You realize someone's going through something far worse than you have ever had to go through or something else, and you're kind of like, yeah, I should just chill out a little. And I said, it's amazing. It's almost. I said, it's almost like the universe can throw those things at you. It seems like sometimes it's so spooky and perfectly timed. It's on purpose. And you said, yeah, that's called the sacramental view, right? It's a sacramental view of the. Of the world where it's not. You don't have to wait for the Red Sea to part or, you know, water to come out of a rock. It's that these moments are there and they're constantly thrown in your path, but it's up to you to see them. Do you remember that conversation?

Mike (14:33)

Like, yeah.

Dan (14:33)

So that's kind of like what. What I see in this movie, right? Like, that's. That's what he. He wants to live that way. The angel wants to live that way, which is so ironic because he's presumably from heaven, but he wants to live on Earth and experience these little moments of heaven as humans do, like drinking the coffee, like feeding the cat.

Mike (14:50)

And I think that's why only the kids can see the angels. I think if You. The first time you see it, you think, oh, it's because they're. They're innocent.

Dan (14:59)

Right.

Mike (14:59)

Which they are. But that's not why. I think that part of their. Part of their innocence is not just innocence from good and evil. Like, when you give a kid. You give a kid a book and you want to read a book with the kid, the kid will never read the book with you. The first thing they do is they start to, like, run their thumb, you know, over the corner of the spot. Because for you, all the. All the tactile things about life are cliche. You, like, it's. It's almost like you have to turn down the volume of On Experience so that you can do things, because otherwise you'd, like. You'd literally just sit at and, like, stare at your fingers all day, which is essentially what kids do. And. And so they experience life exactly like Danielle for the same reason, which is that they're new.

Dan (15:45)

Oh, right, they're new at it. Right.

Mike (15:47)

They just. They just got here. So they're. They're. They're in a. In a continual state of wonder because they're experiencing things for the first time. Right. And when I'm an adult and I give you a book, what I mean is, you want to. I want you to experience this book for the first time so we can talk about it. But of course, a kid doesn't see it that way. A kid's like, you know, smelling the glue, you know, or wants to take a pen and it's like, oh, it's made out of paper. But there's stuff there already wants to. Wants to write on it. And there's something about their wonder. Like this film, just for a second, wants to transfer the innocence of morality to the innocence of experience. Like. And I mean that in like an almost Jamesian way.

Dan (16:28)

Or Blakey in a way. Like, could you have them both at the same time?

Mike (16:31)

Yeah. And. And that's the thing that I find the prettiest about this movie, which is like, let's. Let's take morality for granted. Yes, of course kids are innocent, but in. In what other way are kids like angels? And I think that that's the obvious parallel that they're going for. Yeah.

Dan (16:48)

Because if you've never tasted coffee, of course that's what you'd want. And of course, the best part of having coffee every day is the first sip. And that's what he does so well in the movie. They're like, do you want a cream of sugar? He's like, no, just black. And he drinks it. He's like. He makes that face. He's like, huh? And that's like. But we take it for granted, right? And that's. So, like, that's. The sacramental view is like, you should be more like a child in a certain way, right? You should be grateful for the intersection of heaven with earth. And if you could actually pinpoint those moments, you'd be a different person.

Mike (17:16)

Once a caller came to Blake's house, and he was stripped naked to the waist outside in his garden. And essentially, like, Mrs. Blake was like, I can't make him come in. And so at the end of the conversation, apparently she. She said, Mr. Blake is very often paradise.

Dan (17:34)

And that's. And that's, of course, that. But the conceit of the movie, of course, is it flips it. It's not about somebody who want see what the he. What heaven is like. It's. It's the opposite way around. So what's your moment?

Mike (17:45)

Well, my moment, it has to do with a reaction that I had the first time I saw this movie. And of course, you find out that he. Of course, he's got to fall in love with the. The trapeze swinger, you know, with. With the angels on. And I think that there's a very mature, sardonic part of me that wanted to roll my eyes.

Dan (18:02)

Oh, 100.

Mike (18:04)

Okay, here. Here we go. And then it's like, okay, but just imagine this movie for a second if she's not a trapeze artist who, you know, puts on a show for. For children or something. It's like, you know, he wants to become human so that he can fall in love with an accountant. And there's just something. There's just something about the movie that doesn't work. And it's for this moment, which is, you know, there's. There's the scene where the circus manager comes in and tells them, like, tonight's last show, we're out of money. Nobody's getting paid, whatever. And she's walking through the parking lot, and she sees the fat guy. And you see it from Daniel's point of view, from, you know, like half a mile away or something. They're just kind of little figures in this field. And as she's walking past him, he suddenly grabs her and he twirls her around her head.

Dan (18:48)

Great moment.

Mike (18:49)

And she executes this perfect twirl and comes down. And then everybody's smiling. And then she walks away. And the film. I feel like the film was like, gotcha. You know, they tell you that she's a trapeze artist first, and then you're like, okay, whatever, because.

Mike (19:07)

It feels almost condescending for a second. And then they catch you, which is like, no, what we mean is that the only image that's suitable for the human experience here is something that looks commonplace, it looks milquetoast every day, but it can suddenly explode into wonder at any time and do things that you can't do. And all you can do is sit there and appreciate it. And so I take my hat off for that directorial decision because I would have made her an accountant or something.

Dan (19:41)

Welcome back. So Part three, we talk about the ending or the title? Big ideas. Mike, what do you got?

Mike (19:46)

Well, I think we need to talk about fallenness as the idea because fallenness seems like it's a phrase that they use kind of, but they use it as a cliche in the movie twice. When they say fall from grace, that means fall from black and white outside reality of understanding everything into a limited, narrow viewpoint. So I guess the easiest way to make this point and to kind of touch on some ideas that are percolating in my brain is forget it. Forget it's an angel for a second. And so now let me rephrase this to you and you tell me what it sounds like. A spiritual all knowing entity falls in love with somebody so much that they're willing to, to fall and become human and bleed red blood so that they can be together.

Dan (20:41)

Dracula?

Mike (20:44)

No. Although it's. Well, it's funny that you say that because this, so this movie is the, is actually the inverse of Dracula or Twilight or something like that, right? And if you, if you think about like why teenage girls love Twilight, it's because human experience is the, is the milquetoast experience. And then there's something supernatural and exciting happening over here. And the only way that to be with the creature is essentially to surrender and to join it. And this is, this is like the inverse of every, of every horror film. Like it's, it's, it's like God. Like in the early church there's a. There was this thing called the Gnostic heresy, which essentially is like eastern religion which says all material is bad and only the spiritual is good. So it sets up like a false hierarchy for the universe where everything physical is subordinate to everything spiritual. So like, why does your life suck? Your life sucks because your, your brain is all wrapped up in its material, right? It's like at the core of Buddhism. Right. The problem is you, if you could just let go of all this physical material, you'd be much better. And the movie says, no, that's not true. Which is also what the. That's like, the teaching of the church. That's the teaching of. If you think about the person that created the material, like, why does Berlin suck? Berlin sucks because of us. It's our fault. It's the wall and the violence. How was it created? You remember, they keep seeing that. That one tree sticking up out of the water. Like the. The essence of material is actually good. The essence of material is fulfillment. And so I think that what this movie wants to do is reverse or wrestle with the idea that.

Mike (22:27)

An only spiritual desire is somehow better than only material desire. When, in fact, I think the right marriage of a spiritual and material desire is actually the fulfillment of the plan, and it's the only hope for humanity.

Dan (22:42)

Hence, in a very small way, the.

Mike (22:43)

Cup of coffee, That's a cup of coffee. But greater than the cup of coffee is love. It's like, I love you so much, right? I would be willing to become you, like you, so that we could marry. And that would involve my pain and my suffering.

Dan (22:59)

Right? Because at the end. And this leads into my take on the. Any two. When he's at the very end of the movie where he's holding the rope and his partner is. I love how his partner's, like, in the back sitting on the steps, watching them or something like that. But he's on the rope and he's holding it and he's watching her and he says, oh, last night, you know, I learned about you. I never knew what it was like to be so completely immersed in another person. He says one of his voiceovers there is. Which is also interesting, by the way, because the angels listen to everybody else's voiceovers the whole movie. But at the end, you get his, like, now that he's human. But at the end, he says, she came to take me home. So this is literally in the bar. He meets her in the bar. Right. She came to take me home, and I found home. My amazement at man and woman has turned me into a human being. So. Right. My amazement at man and woman has turned me into a human being.

Mike (23:45)

Okay. Is that. It's. They're angels. They're not angels in the Christian sense. Right. Or they are, but it's. It's not explicitly dealt with. It's dealt with.

Dan (23:55)

It's.

Mike (23:56)

It's dealt with in this sideway, which is to say that what. What is the ultimate purpose of the universe? The ultimate purpose of the universe is is a continual, forever union. But you can't put yourself in a state to be. To be beyond that. That union, in a way like Cassiel's, he's away from the best things in the universe, which is why I think that they're in black and white and they're in color. Like when you get that first wizard.

Dan (24:25)

Of Oz splash jarring, and you're like, wait, it's.

Mike (24:29)

It's jarring. Because the idea behind a black and white movie is that the. Somehow the shadows and shades of gray are more accurate than Technicolor. Right. That's.

Dan (24:38)

That's what the old thing.

Mike (24:40)

That's what your college professor totally is, that black and white is more. Is. Is more accurate.

Dan (24:45)

Right.

Mike (24:46)

But once you know that there is color, that's when you feel deprived.

Dan (24:51)

Right?

Mike (24:51)

When it feels more natural to see in color.

Dan (24:54)

Right.

Mike (24:55)

And. And so, you know, I don't. I don't think that the film is necessarily wrestling with particular ideas per se. It's just. It's wrestling with a question that lies at the. At the back of every world's view, which is what is better, spirit or material?

Dan (25:12)

And that wrestling match is solved at the end of. Or at least solves it for the moment, right? Because it says to be continued and there is a sequel, but it is solved for the moment. When he's holding the rope. I mean, he's grounded on something in the material. He's holding out the stuff. I think that's a great image. While you see her twirl around, but.

Mike (25:27)

While he's grounded, she can fly, Right?

Dan (25:30)

Right. Oh, there you go. There you go. Right. While he's grounded, she can fly. And that's. And that's, you know, that's such a wonderful image at the end. And back to the idea about when he says, my amazement at man and woman is turning into a human being. To go back to what I said in part one and what you said about kids and seeing angels. We are not amazed by men and women. We are not routinely amazed. As a matter of fact, we're rolling our eyes, we're complaining about other people. People go on social media, the whole. Everything's, you know, everyone, ha. Everybody else.

Mike (25:57)

Right.

Dan (25:57)

We are not amazed by other people. But the movie seems to suggest, Just suggest that if we could be amazed by other people, that's one way to get out of purgatory. And that's what. That's what falling in love is, is to be amazed that another person, like the other person in your relationship exists. And that's how you get out of Purgatory. That's how you get out of Berlin. Thanks for listening, everybody. Thanks for that pick. John Bond. That was a great, great pick. You can follow us on substack at pages and frames. Where's your substack, Mike?

Mike (26:28)

The Grumbler's Almanac.

Dan (26:29)

You could also follow us. Where, Mike?

Mike (26:31)

Letterbox.

Dan (26:32)

Keep them coming and we'll see you next time.