Xiangli Ding, "Hydropower Nation: Dams, Energy, and Political Changes in Twentieth-Century China" (Cambridge UP, 2024)

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast Title: New Books Network
Episode: Xiangli Ding, "Hydropower Nation: Dams, Energy, and Political Changes in Twentieth-Century China" (Cambridge UP, 2024)
Release Date: February 15, 2025
Host: Yadong Li
Guest: Professor Xiangli Ding (Associate Professor of History, Rhode Island School of Design)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the themes, arguments, and historical findings of Professor Xiangli Ding’s new book, Hydropower Nation: Dams, Energy, and Political Changes in Twentieth-Century China. The discussion brings to light how China’s extensive hydropower development has influenced not just the country’s energy supply, but also its political structures, national identity, ecological systems, and the lived experiences of millions. Using a multidisciplinary approach, Professor Ding unpacks the dual legacy—constructive and destructive—of hydropower in China and critically revisits notions of progress, state-building, and environmental transformation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Author Background and Research Motivation

[02:24–04:09]

• Professor Ding introduces himself as a historian with a focus on modern China and environmental history.
• His fascination with the interaction between humans and the environment began in his youth, leading him to study water management in his home region (Henan) for his master’s thesis.
• He gradually shifted his research to the 20th century, expanding from water management in imperial times to large hydropower projects in modern China.

Conceptual Framework: The "Hydropower Nation"

[06:01–14:06]

• Ding explains how "Hydropower Nation" emerged as a conceptual tool that connects technological, environmental, social, and political threads of hydropower development in China.
• The idea draws on early 20th-century Chinese intellectuals' belief that using native energy resources—like rivers—was key for national independence.
• Quote:

  “Hydropower projects were integrated into the discourse of national development and state building. ...the hydropower project and the political regimes were interdependent and mutually reinforcing.” — Professor Ding [09:31]

• The 'dual nature' of hydropower is central: it is both a constructive (energy/political power) and destructive (displacement, ecological harm) force.

Three Scholarly Interventions of the "Hydropower Nation" Concept

• Enriches the economic tradition of water history, bringing in analysis of the industrial and modern eras.
• Provides an environmental-technological lens for state-building narratives in modern China.
• Connects China’s dam-building story to global histories of the “concrete revolution” and the Cold War.

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Historical Trajectory of Hydropower in China

Introduction and Adoption of Hydropower

[15:19–18:48]

• Exploiting water for power has long roots in Chinese history, but “hydropower” as electricity-producing technology came via Western missionaries and Chinese elites returning from abroad in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
• Revolutionary figures like Sun Yat-sen advocated hydropower’s promise.
• Early projects were often led by provincial elites, especially in regions like Sichuan.

Expanding Networks: Engineers, State, International Influence

[18:48–20:57]

• 1930s-40s: National Resources Commission oversaw hydropower development; US engineers contributed expertise.
• After 1949: Soviet technical assistance was pivotal. The rise and fall of key political figures (e.g., Li Rui) affected hydropower policy directions.
• Hydropower development was a cumulative, collective effort spanning foreign and domestic actors.

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Hydropower During the Mao Era

[21:19–30:08]

• Hydropower became a state developmental priority, symbolizing socialist modernization.
• Policies oscillated due to shifts in leadership and political ideology:
  • Li Rui advocated “hydropower first” in the 1950s, but the policy was reversed as coal retained dominance.
  • Large dams dazzled as symbols of state power and technological prowess but entailed massive ecological and social costs.
• Small Hydro projects proliferated via “walking on two legs” (combining Soviet-style professionalization and mass mobilization):
  • Generated electricity for rural areas, tangible benefits for everyday life.
  • Celebrated as “appropriate technology” but with caveats—if too many are built, cumulative river fragmentation and ecological harm can result.

Notable quote:

“Socialism seems abstract if we talk about the political economy. But when they can use their electricity to light their homes in the night, … it’s materialistic, it's tangible. So it's politically helpful for the propagation of socialism among the public.” — Professor Ding [28:24]

• Large vs. Small Dams:
  • Large: highly disruptive—e.g., worsened sedimentation, displacement, ecological devastation.
  • Small: sometimes less harmful, but not universally benign.

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Human Impacts: Displacement and Social Suffering

[30:08–36:56]

• The Sanmenxia Dam (late 1950s) led to the forced migration of over 430,000 people, mostly from Henan and Shaanxi provinces.

• Migrants faced hardship, inadequate compensation, and enduring stigma; some were resettled locally, others sent thousands of kilometers away, often returning multiple times due to poor conditions.

• Quote:

  “The experience of those Sanmenxia reservoir migrants just shows that Hydropower Nation is not only about civil engineering, but also a disruptive social engineering process.” — Professor Ding [33:35]

• State policies toward resettlement have somewhat improved since the late 1970s, but challenges—especially psychological—persist.

• Ding advocates for greater recognition of migrants’ suffering:

  “I also hope that those displaced communities can be recognized at the dam site, their stories being told in local museums.” — Professor Ding [36:31]

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Reflection, Broader Significance, and Future Research

[36:56–38:24]

• The book challenges triumphalist state narratives of “progress,” calling for nuanced insight into the costs, both human and environmental, of grand infrastructure projects.
• Host and guest emphasize the book’s importance for historians, policymakers, and the Chinese public.
• Ding’s next project will focus on the social and environmental history of Dongting Lake.

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Selected Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “Hydropower projects were integrated into the discourse of national development and state building.” — Professor Ding [09:31]
• “Both sides of the dual nature of hydropower … are inseparable, like two sides of the same coin. But in the predominant state narrative of power in China nowadays, only the constructive aspect is being highlighted. And I wish this study could rectify that narrative …” — Professor Ding [13:31]
• “Development of hydropower was really a consistent and a collective endeavor which involved both Chinese and foreign engineers … throughout the 20th century.” — Professor Ding [20:57]
• “Socialism is local, but also electrical.” — Professor Ding [28:24]
• “Hydropower Nation is not only about civil engineering, but also a disruptive social engineering process.” — Professor Ding [33:35]
• “I also hope that those displaced communities can be recognized at the dam site, their stories being told in local museums.” — Professor Ding [36:31]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 02:24 | Author’s introduction & background | | 04:09 | Motivation for topic choice | | 06:48 | Meaning and value of “Hydropower Nation” as a concept | | 09:31 | Dual nature of hydropower and scholarly interventions | | 15:19 | Introduction of hydropower knowledge to China | | 18:48 | Engineering exchange: US, Soviet, and Chinese actors | | 21:48 | Hydropower policy and projects during Maoist era | | 28:24 | Societal impact of rural electrification | | 30:08 | Large vs. small dam impacts | | 31:40 | Displacement and Sanmenxia Dam case study | | 33:35 | Social suffering of migrants and evolving policies | | 36:56 | Book’s contributions and call for greater recognition | | 37:56 | Professor Ding’s future research directions |

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Tone and Style

The conversation is scholarly yet accessible, combining critical analysis with personal insights and empathy for those affected by state development policies. Both host and guest provide a compassionate, deeply contextualized understanding of China’s environmental and political history.

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Takeaways

• Hydropower development in China is inseparable from the nation’s story of modernization, technological ambition, and political identity.
• The book Hydropower Nation urges readers and policymakers to recognize both the benefits and the deep, often hidden costs of massive infrastructure projects.
• Displaced populations and ecological disruptions must become central to any assessment of progress and modernization.
• A new generation of environmental historians is bringing to light the immense complexity behind the “development” narrative in China.

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This summary captures the episode’s key arguments, memorable moments, and academic relevancy, while providing an accessible roadmap for any listener or reader seeking to understand the intersections of energy, state power, and environmental transformation in 20th-century China.

Transcript

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[Yadong Li]

Hello everybody. Welcome to the New Books Network. I'm your host, Yadong Li, a host of the Anthropology Channel of the New Books Network, and today's podcast will be released on the Chinese Studies Channel of the New Books Network. In today's podcast, we'll dive into the history of China's vast and ever expanding energy landscape. The new book Today will take us on a fascinating journey through China's hydropower projects, revolving how these infrastructural projects have shaped not only the country's electricity supply, but also its rivers, ecosystems, and the leaves of millions of ordinary people. Today's book is a groundbreaking contribution to modern Chinese environmental history, offering fresh insights into the intersection of technology, state power and ecological transformation, both past and present. It's my pleasure today to chat with the new book's author, Professor Ding Xiangli. So, Professor Ding, thank you for attending today's podcast.

[Professor Ding Xiangli]

Hi everyone. Hi Yadung. Thank you very much for the invitation.

[Yadong Li]

Thank you very much for coming to the New Books Network it's our pleasure. So today his new book is Hydropower Dams, Energy and political changes in 20th century China, published by the Cambridge University Press in October 2024. The new book author, Ding Xiangli, is Associate professor of History at the Rhode Island School of Design. Professor Ding is a historian of modern China and environmental history. His research interest lies at the intersection of the environment, technology, politics, and human life in modern China. So, Professor Ding, before we dive into your fascinating new book, I'd love for our audience to get to know you a little bit. So could you please share with us some information about you, your background or your research interest?

[Professor Ding Xiangli]

Sure. Thank you, Yadun, for the brief introduction. So I consider myself as a historian of modern China and environmental history. So I sort of focus on energy history, in this case, of course, hydropower and its environmental and social impact. Generally speaking, I think I have been trained as a historian and trying to implicate the 20th century is my area and period of focus.

[Yadong Li]

Thank you very much. And I think Hydro Hydropower Nation is your first book and this book dives deep into the history and impact of, like the book title mentions of hydropower project in modern China, which is a topic both timely and deeply complicated. So I'm very curious about what initially drew you to this subject. Was there a particular event, personal experience or influential figure that made you recognize the critical role of water management project and their far reaching social environmental consequences to today's China?

[Professor Ding Xiangli]

Yeah, as a student I have always been interested in geography, the relationship between human and environment, and back to 2010 when I was still a Master's student in China. I need a topic for my master and I wanted to do something that is meaningful to me. In particular, something related, if not about the place that I was born and raised, Henan Province, which literally means south of the Yalu River. So the Yada river came into my vision and I did study a master thesis on the Yellow river management and its relationship with the local society during the Qing Dynasty. So then when I was in my doctorate program, when it's time to do dissertation, I decided to build on the master thesis and expand it to the 20th century. As we know that there is a very rich literature on water management in late Imperial China. Usually those scholarship about irrigation, flood control, navigation and hydroelectricity and concrete dams were something new in the 20th century and there was very little study about it. That's why I decided to expand it to the 20th century and really focus on large hydropower project on the Yellow river as one of my most important case studies in the dissertation. So that is Simonsha. And later, of course, we will talk more in detail about the project.

[Yadong Li]

Definitely, definitely. It sounds like a really cumulative process to finally concentrate on these specific cases. And also I think I listened to your answer and you mentioned you start with the large scale infrastructure project, but in the book you also mentioned you also dive into the small scale infrastructure projects, then building projects in China. So we'll talk about it later. So your book introduces the concept of hydropower nation, which serves as both the book's title and also a key analytical framework. It is a very interesting concept for me. Could you unpack this term for us? What does it signify and why is it a helpful lens for understanding the sweeping transformation of China's river in the 20th century, technologically, environmentally and also politically?

[Professor Ding Xiangli]

Yeah, actually when I submitted my manuscript, the title was different and it's actually titled Transforming Waters. As you know that all book manuscripts would need to go through a peer review processes and both of my anonymous peer reviewers pointed out that there was a lack of overarching concept which could better weave the different case studies, gather and provide a more concise view of hydropower developments throughout Chinese history. And then I think in particular, in the first part of the book, when I did research about hydropower developments in the early 20th century, I encountered a lot of writings by Chinese engineers, educated elites, on the discussion of the relationship between national crisis and the development of hydropower. Because in the early 20th century, China heavily relied on the importation of foreign oil for electricity generation. And many Chinese elites believed that the Chinese nation and its strengths embodied in the mountains and rivers and through exploiting those natural resources endowed by the nature, that China could achieve authentic national independence. Also, later in the 1930s and 1940s, during the war with Japan, the Nationalist government retreated to the southwest, and China also experienced a very dire energy crisis. And because there was rich hydropower potential in the southwest, so the Nationalist government and engineers also worked hard to take advantage of the hydropower resources there. So connection with energy crisis, national crisis. So from their writings and their endeavors, I sort of derived the concept of Hyd power nation.

[Yadong Li]

So let's talk about the hydropower nation and its characteristics. So the dual nature of hydropower, namely both constructive and destructive, is a key entry point of your book. So how can you understand this dual nature of hydropower? And how do the two aspects of hydropower nation connect with each other?

[Professor Ding Xiangli]

So before getting to the dual nature, I would also like to speak a little bit about the sort of meaning of hydropowerination first, the concept itself, I think I sort of divide it into sort of two layers of meaning. Hydropower, literally, the first layer is about the hydropower, it's about the technological and environmental aspect of it. So hydropower as sort of energy harnessed from the natural forces of river flows, has been converted into electricity to meet the variety of human demands. And the second layer of meaning is about social and political. And the transformation of rivers requires not only specific technological innovations, but also political and social engineering. In the 20th century, building a strong nation was a shared goal of many Chinese elites. And they believed that nation and its prosperity were embodied in the country's mountains and rivers. Hydropower projects were integrated into the discourse of national development and state building. And it became a driving force in propelling and securing the power of the ruling party. So in this sense, the hydropower project and the political regimes were interdependent and mutually reinforcing. And I argue that the convergence of reverse hydropower technology, technocratic system and the nation state beauty efforts sort of led to the formation of hydropower nation and the sort of usefulness of the concept. Some people may disagree, but based on the scholarship and academic tradition sort of study of water history, first I think I believe this concept would make three contributions or interventions. The first one is the economic tradition of water management history. In particular, during imperial era, there were concepts like oriental despotism and hydraulic community. But all those concepts really focus on the imperial era. There was lack of engagement with the so called modern era in the 20th century during industrial era. And the second is the nation's state building narrative. In modern Chinese history. This concept foreground energy production, environmental change and social disruptions in the state's developmental narrative. It provides an environmental technological perspective for our understanding of modern Chinese history. And the third intervention, I believe is the engagement with war history. American geographer Christopher Sneddon has called the proliferation of concrete dams technology in the historical context of a Cold war the concrete revolution. And yet, how this revolution unfolded in China was unclear. I tell the story of the planning, construction and operation of China's hydropower project and how the concrete revolution is related to the socialist revolution. Then on the dual nature of hydropower, I think both sides of the dual nature of hydropower. One side of course, is a source of power and constructive force in the form of energy and a political might. And the other side is a means of destruction through the displacement of people and environmental degradation, especially large dams. In many cases, the higher the damage, the larger installed electricity generation capacity means more population will be displaced. And the environment experience a larger scale disruption. The relationship on those two aspects, I think I consider them as inseparable, like two side of the same coin. But in the predominant state narrative of power in China nowadays, only the constructive aspect being highlighted. And I wish this study could rectify that narrative by recognizing the dual nature of hydropower, then we can take appropriate steps to minimize destruction and maximize the constructive aspect.

[Yadong Li]

Thank you, Professor Ding. And I personally think this book is really critical and really interesting for us to review the universal, the general discourse or theory of progress. Just like Walter Bayning said about the ruin, basically we think about hysterical progression. We think about, you know, everything is developing, but we ignore the ruins left by the process of development and progress. So through tracing all this infrastructure project and the ruins behind it, I think this book provides a really great critical revisiting of the concept and discourse of not only in China, but also around the world about progress. And thank you for this contribution. So the ability to harass river flows for electricity was a transformative development in China's modernization. In China's history of modernization. So when and how was this knowledge first introduced? And what were the key moments that shaped its adoption to Chinese society? So which political actors play the most important role introducing the theory, the, you know, the technology of water, electricity supply during this process?

[Professor Ding Xiangli]

Actually since the Han Dynasty 200 CE, there is already evidence that water power, not hydropower, that we consider defined as sort of hydroelectricity, but water power, the use of water had to be utilized since for thousands of years throughout the Chinese history, for example, use water mill to process grain. But of course, electricity, generator and modern turbine were first developed in Europe and North America. Those knowledge were introduced to China first, I believed by Western missionaries in the late 19th century. A couple of examples like American missionaries William Martin and Young Allen, they sort of introduced those in those scientific textbooks, the translation of textbooks and also the report of latest developments in North America and Europe. And there were also many Chinese elites who studied or traveled abroad would also report and transmit those technology and knowledge back to China. One example that I covered in the book is whether we know the revolutionary leader Sun Yan Sen. He wrote a petition letter to li Hongjiang in 1894 mentioning hydropower as a new method of producing inexhaustible source of power. Then later in 1920, in his pamphlet on the national reconstruction of China, the English side of that pamphlet is the International Development of China. He also envisioned international cooperation on developing the hydropower of the Yangtze River. And of course there were many other local elites in particular, case I mentioned in the book, is in Sichuan. Many of those local elites, some of them also studied abroad, in Europe, in North America, and they led the construction, not just the plan construction of relatively small hydropower projects in their hometowns.

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[Professor Ding Xiangli]

And then in the 1930s and the 40s, under the Chinese Nationalist government, there was the National Resources Commission, which would oversee the survey and planning and construction of a hydropower project in China. Many Chinese engineers would be sent to the United States to receive training. And some American engineers, like John Savage, John Carden, would also visit China and provide a consultation to their Chinese part. Then later, of course, after 1949, the Soviet engineers would play a more important role in providing technological assistance to the People's Republic of China in the 1950s. And in the 1950s, there was another important prominence cadre, Li Rui, who played an important role in leading the developments of hydropower because he, as a sort of revolutionary, would sort of work build a very good relationship, constructive relationship with professionally trained engineers from older society. But unfortunately, of course, that later would be disrupted by the rise of radical Maoism in the late 1950s.

[Yadong Li]

Thank you very much. I actually really recommend our audience to read this chapter themselves because it shows the complex relationship between different political actors in playing the role in the process of transforming China's rivers into the source of resource exploitation. And I think also it shows an expanding trend around the globe, a global trend of objectifying the nature or environment as a source of resource. So it basically shows the modern changes of modern changes of understanding of human environment relationship.

[Professor Ding Xiangli]

Yeah, so it's. So it's, you know, I just want to highlight that the development of hydropower was really a consistent and a collective endeavor which involved both Chinese and foreign engineers as well as bureaucrats and state leaders throughout the 20th century.

[Yadong Li]

Definitely. So during China's High Socialist period or Mao period, hydropower infrastructure became increasingly central to the nation's development. So how did the Chinese state prioritize and expand hydropower during this time? And what factors drove this, drove its growing importance? And also how did large dams and smaller water projects differ in their rules, both in terms of national strategy and their environmental and social impacts during the.

[Professor Ding Xiangli]

High Socialist period, in particular in the 1950s under the auspices of Li Ray, actually China developed a hydropower first thermal power safety policy in 1958. The People's Daily has published an article titled Every qualified hydraulic project shall generate electricity. So during Great Leap forward, more than 50 large and mid sized hydropower project were launched. But the policy was short lived because Li ray later in 1959 would be labeled as a follower of the anti party clique headed by Peng Dehuai due to his criticism of the Great Leap Forward policy. And many, not just of Li Ray, but many hydropower engineers would also be punished in the following years because in comparison to coal power plants, hydropower takes longer construction time and requires higher initial investments. So in pragmatic term, that coal power plants would still be the major source of electricity generation in China at that time until today is still true. But hydropower projects were highly regarded by the People's Republic. Simply one reason is because large dams are visually spectacular and politically significant. So the new government promised to transform water disasters into water benefits. And a claim that can only be accomplished under the Chinese Communist Party's leadership and the socialist political structure. So it's politically significant for instead of establishing its legitimacy among the public in the 1950s, small hydropower also started in the 1950s during the great Leap Forward and it's continued throughout the Cultural Revolution and particularly in the 1970s and the early 1980s. It experienced a very exponential growth in those decades. Also because Chairman Mao Zedong called for walking on two legs. One leg is sort of Soviet style in the 1950s and professional, and the other leg is indigenous reliance on the masses and the popular way of tolerance. And in the field of hydropower development, that is small hydro because it requires less capital and simple method for construction and technology. So small hydropower was significant at that time because it's brought tangible benefits to local population. We know that large jams generated electricity for industrialization, mainly consumed by cities and factories. But electricity generated by small hydropower usually would be directly consumed by those rural population for agriculture product procession and also for irrigation to pump water to higher ground and other methods used to improve agriculture output. Good. So at that time in the rural area, many cadres would say that socialism is local, but also electrical. Because for the general population, socialism seems abstract if we talk about the political economy. But when they can use their electricity to light their homes in the night, or when they can ease their labor for agricultural work, it's materialistic, it's tangible. So it's politically helpful for the propagation of socialism among the public. On the environment, of course, the two different types of hydropower would also have different levels of impact and usually will cost more hydropower as appropriate technology and large dams as brute force technology. So large dams such like Sim and Sha, the Three Gate Gorge project covered in the book caused many environmental problems. For example, it exacerbated soothing problem in the upper strand. And it's caused to groundwater due to aeration, river bank collapse and reduction of fish population. But on the other hand, I think waterfalls like uber swans, they adapt well because the reservoir means the expanded surface water and that is good that provide the wintering habitat for Hoover swans from the north. But generally speaking, small hydro is considered as environment friendly, but it also could cause river fragmentation. If multiple small hydro power project being built on the same river, it could cause exacerbation of erosion in the upper stream in particular during the construction period. Because it would cause limited deforestation and disrupt river ecology. That means even though that we call it a property technology and small hydro as environmental less destructive, but it still could cause environmental problems. In the 1990s, small hydrogen was used to replace wood as a major source of household fuel. And that's good for the production of vegetation coverage in mountainous areas. But in general, I think the environmental impact of hydropower project should be assessed case by case. Generally speaking, we can say that large dams are more environmentally destructive and small hydropower environment friendly. But again, I think my study just shows that if being done improperly in a large scale, small hydro could also cause environmental problems for local rivering ecology. The only significance of small hydropower I think in the 1990s, China established with collaboration of the United Nations, China established the International small Hydro center in Hangzhou. So it just shows the sort of leading role of China just in large hydropower project, but also on small hydropower. I think that center served a road to really contribute to sort of rural development in the global south.

[Yadong Li]

Interesting. And also saying this is one of the most important contribution of the book to show not only when we talk about Chinese infrastructural projects, normally we think about like you mentioned, the state spectacle, but also I think you perfectly showed how this small scale infrastructure project also give a really huge, really significant impact on Chinese people's everyday life. Also the ecology, like the human environment, relationships. And I think this contribution is very important. So let's talk about a topic I'm very interested in because when I was doing my fieldwork in northwestern China, I met a group of people and they say they were from Henan province. And many villages talk about these people and call them Shanxi migrants or Henan migrants. So I was very curious about how these people went to northwestern China in the corner of western China and what were they doing there. So in your book you discussed the Sanmenxia hydropower project and mentioned that over 43,000 people were forced to leave their homes due to the construction of the dam. And this particularly resonates with my experiences like I met some of them in northwestern China. So how do the experiences of this affected the highlights the issues associated with a hydropower nation? And can we begin to reflect on this sub concept to promote a more sustainable and maybe equitable relationship between humans and the environment?

[Professor Ding Xiangli]

Yeah, it's very interesting that you encounter some of those migrants in Yingxia. I think there were. In the late 1950s, there were more than 430,000 people being displaced from Henan, Shanxi and Shanxi so through provinces in the Sima Asia reservoir areas. Most of them were. The majority of them were resident of Shanxi province and then a small number of migrants from Henan. So in my book I actually mainly focus on on the migrants from Henan province in the late 1950s. So displacement of course is the destructive aspect of the hydropower nation.

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[Professor Ding Xiangli]

1950S, reservoir displacement coincided with the national frontier reclamation and rural collectivization campaigns. In the campaign, therefore, many of the Simingsha Reservoir residents were asked to resettle in frontier places such as Ningxia and Gansu. But we should also rely that many of them were also resettled to so called short distance resettlements. So that basically means they resettle either in Henan or in Shaanxi, not far from their original homes. So there were two options. One was long distance resettlement, tuning Sha to Gansu. The other was short distance. So the most troubling was the long distance resettlement which I sort of covered in my book. So and I think the experience of those Simon Sharp reservoir migrants just shows that Hydropower Nation is not only about civil engineering, but also a disruptive social engineering process. It urges us to rebalance and reflect statist goals and individual and grassroots experience. Simonshan is an example where state goals completely overshadowed individual interest. Because of the political culture and state policy at that time, they were poorly compensated and suffered tremendously in the displacement process. Many of them had to migrate back and forth between Gansu and Henan multiple times during those years. So they struggled to feed themselves, shelter themselves during those years. Actually, many migrants were unwilling to admit that they were reservoir migrants because it was associated with shame and poverty for a long time. But on a positive note, State's policy on reservoir resettlement has evolved since the late 1970s. We see improvements on composition and poverty elevation efforts in particular since the 1990s. But of course there are still many challenges among those displaced communities, in particular psychological and emotional difficulties which are just very hard to overcome. So I think writing this book in particular the third part of the book is an individual effort to recognize the suffering of reservoir migrants in the past. And I also hope that those displaced communities can be recognized at the dam site, their stories being told in local museums.

[Yadong Li]

Thank you so much. And this topic that I also really recommend our audience to read themselves because it really shows the human suffering caused by large scale and also small scale infrastructure projects. It's really deep and Also, it shows, basically, I think you quote James called about seeing like a state. So it shows the state perspective, how the state perspective can have indirect or direct impact on millions of people's lives, which is very important for future policymakers to think about and also for historians and ordinary Chinese people to know about this group of neglected migrants in the Chinese history. Thank you very much. So as we are approaching today's the end of today's podcast, I hope to give our audience a glimpse into what's next for you. So are there any current projects you're working on or new research directions you are exploring? So any hints you can share about what we might expect from you in the future?

[Professor Ding Xiangli]

Yeah, thank you. I think I do want to take a break, but in the meantime, I think I have already launched a new project on the social and environmental history of the Dongting Lake in the central Yangtze Basin. So I have done some preliminary archival research and I hope to do more field research in the years to come.

[Yadong Li]

Thank you very much. So I think basically water is still something you are very focused on in the future, and I'm very looking forward to more work from you and learning from your new work. Thank you very much, Professor Dean, for coming to today's podcast.

[Professor Ding Xiangli]

Thank you for the invitation and thank you everyone for listening.

[Yadong Li]

In today's podcast, I talk with Professor Ding Xiangli about his latest book titled Hydropower Damp Energy and political changes in 20th century China, published by the Cambridge University Press in 2024. Through uncovering the complex relationship between energy, ecology and politics, this book reminds us that the grand infrastructure projects are also stories of people and nature. I'm Yadong Li. Thank you for listening to today's podcast and we hope to see you next time.