Podcast Summary
Podcast Title: New Books Network
Episode: Xiangli Ding, "Hydropower Nation: Dams, Energy, and Political Changes in Twentieth-Century China" (Cambridge UP, 2024)
Release Date: February 15, 2025
Host: Yadong Li
Guest: Professor Xiangli Ding (Associate Professor of History, Rhode Island School of Design)
Episode Overview
This episode explores the themes, arguments, and historical findings of Professor Xiangli Ding’s new book, Hydropower Nation: Dams, Energy, and Political Changes in Twentieth-Century China. The discussion brings to light how China’s extensive hydropower development has influenced not just the country’s energy supply, but also its political structures, national identity, ecological systems, and the lived experiences of millions. Using a multidisciplinary approach, Professor Ding unpacks the dual legacy—constructive and destructive—of hydropower in China and critically revisits notions of progress, state-building, and environmental transformation.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Author Background and Research Motivation
[02:24–04:09]
- Professor Ding introduces himself as a historian with a focus on modern China and environmental history.
- His fascination with the interaction between humans and the environment began in his youth, leading him to study water management in his home region (Henan) for his master’s thesis.
- He gradually shifted his research to the 20th century, expanding from water management in imperial times to large hydropower projects in modern China.
Conceptual Framework: The "Hydropower Nation"
[06:01–14:06]
- Ding explains how "Hydropower Nation" emerged as a conceptual tool that connects technological, environmental, social, and political threads of hydropower development in China.
- The idea draws on early 20th-century Chinese intellectuals' belief that using native energy resources—like rivers—was key for national independence.
- Quote:
“Hydropower projects were integrated into the discourse of national development and state building. ...the hydropower project and the political regimes were interdependent and mutually reinforcing.” — Professor Ding [09:31]
- The 'dual nature' of hydropower is central: it is both a constructive (energy/political power) and destructive (displacement, ecological harm) force.
Three Scholarly Interventions of the "Hydropower Nation" Concept
- Enriches the economic tradition of water history, bringing in analysis of the industrial and modern eras.
- Provides an environmental-technological lens for state-building narratives in modern China.
- Connects China’s dam-building story to global histories of the “concrete revolution” and the Cold War.
Historical Trajectory of Hydropower in China
Introduction and Adoption of Hydropower
[15:19–18:48]
- Exploiting water for power has long roots in Chinese history, but “hydropower” as electricity-producing technology came via Western missionaries and Chinese elites returning from abroad in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
- Revolutionary figures like Sun Yat-sen advocated hydropower’s promise.
- Early projects were often led by provincial elites, especially in regions like Sichuan.
Expanding Networks: Engineers, State, International Influence
[18:48–20:57]
- 1930s-40s: National Resources Commission oversaw hydropower development; US engineers contributed expertise.
- After 1949: Soviet technical assistance was pivotal. The rise and fall of key political figures (e.g., Li Rui) affected hydropower policy directions.
- Hydropower development was a cumulative, collective effort spanning foreign and domestic actors.
Hydropower During the Mao Era
[21:19–30:08]
- Hydropower became a state developmental priority, symbolizing socialist modernization.
- Policies oscillated due to shifts in leadership and political ideology:
- Li Rui advocated “hydropower first” in the 1950s, but the policy was reversed as coal retained dominance.
- Large dams dazzled as symbols of state power and technological prowess but entailed massive ecological and social costs.
- Small Hydro projects proliferated via “walking on two legs” (combining Soviet-style professionalization and mass mobilization):
- Generated electricity for rural areas, tangible benefits for everyday life.
- Celebrated as “appropriate technology” but with caveats—if too many are built, cumulative river fragmentation and ecological harm can result.
Notable quote:
“Socialism seems abstract if we talk about the political economy. But when they can use their electricity to light their homes in the night, … it’s materialistic, it's tangible. So it's politically helpful for the propagation of socialism among the public.” — Professor Ding [28:24]
- Large vs. Small Dams:
- Large: highly disruptive—e.g., worsened sedimentation, displacement, ecological devastation.
- Small: sometimes less harmful, but not universally benign.
Human Impacts: Displacement and Social Suffering
[30:08–36:56]
-
The Sanmenxia Dam (late 1950s) led to the forced migration of over 430,000 people, mostly from Henan and Shaanxi provinces.
-
Migrants faced hardship, inadequate compensation, and enduring stigma; some were resettled locally, others sent thousands of kilometers away, often returning multiple times due to poor conditions.
-
Quote:
“The experience of those Sanmenxia reservoir migrants just shows that Hydropower Nation is not only about civil engineering, but also a disruptive social engineering process.” — Professor Ding [33:35]
-
State policies toward resettlement have somewhat improved since the late 1970s, but challenges—especially psychological—persist.
-
Ding advocates for greater recognition of migrants’ suffering:
“I also hope that those displaced communities can be recognized at the dam site, their stories being told in local museums.” — Professor Ding [36:31]
Reflection, Broader Significance, and Future Research
[36:56–38:24]
- The book challenges triumphalist state narratives of “progress,” calling for nuanced insight into the costs, both human and environmental, of grand infrastructure projects.
- Host and guest emphasize the book’s importance for historians, policymakers, and the Chinese public.
- Ding’s next project will focus on the social and environmental history of Dongting Lake.
Selected Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)
- “Hydropower projects were integrated into the discourse of national development and state building.” — Professor Ding [09:31]
- “Both sides of the dual nature of hydropower … are inseparable, like two sides of the same coin. But in the predominant state narrative of power in China nowadays, only the constructive aspect is being highlighted. And I wish this study could rectify that narrative …” — Professor Ding [13:31]
- “Development of hydropower was really a consistent and a collective endeavor which involved both Chinese and foreign engineers … throughout the 20th century.” — Professor Ding [20:57]
- “Socialism is local, but also electrical.” — Professor Ding [28:24]
- “Hydropower Nation is not only about civil engineering, but also a disruptive social engineering process.” — Professor Ding [33:35]
- “I also hope that those displaced communities can be recognized at the dam site, their stories being told in local museums.” — Professor Ding [36:31]
Important Timestamps
| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 02:24 | Author’s introduction & background | | 04:09 | Motivation for topic choice | | 06:48 | Meaning and value of “Hydropower Nation” as a concept | | 09:31 | Dual nature of hydropower and scholarly interventions | | 15:19 | Introduction of hydropower knowledge to China | | 18:48 | Engineering exchange: US, Soviet, and Chinese actors | | 21:48 | Hydropower policy and projects during Maoist era | | 28:24 | Societal impact of rural electrification | | 30:08 | Large vs. small dam impacts | | 31:40 | Displacement and Sanmenxia Dam case study | | 33:35 | Social suffering of migrants and evolving policies | | 36:56 | Book’s contributions and call for greater recognition | | 37:56 | Professor Ding’s future research directions |
Tone and Style
The conversation is scholarly yet accessible, combining critical analysis with personal insights and empathy for those affected by state development policies. Both host and guest provide a compassionate, deeply contextualized understanding of China’s environmental and political history.
Takeaways
- Hydropower development in China is inseparable from the nation’s story of modernization, technological ambition, and political identity.
- The book Hydropower Nation urges readers and policymakers to recognize both the benefits and the deep, often hidden costs of massive infrastructure projects.
- Displaced populations and ecological disruptions must become central to any assessment of progress and modernization.
- A new generation of environmental historians is bringing to light the immense complexity behind the “development” narrative in China.
This summary captures the episode’s key arguments, memorable moments, and academic relevancy, while providing an accessible roadmap for any listener or reader seeking to understand the intersections of energy, state power, and environmental transformation in 20th-century China.