Yanqiu Zheng, "In Search of Admiration and Respect: Chinese Cultural Diplomacy in the United States, 1875–1974" (U Michigan Press, 2024)

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network – East Asian Studies
Host: Sarah Bramau Ramos
Guest: Yanqiu Zheng, author of In Search of Admiration and Respect: Chinese Cultural Diplomacy in the United States, 1875–1974 (University of Michigan Press, 2024)
Date: November 21, 2025

Main Theme:
This episode explores the evolution and institutionalization of Chinese cultural diplomacy in the United States, focusing on the period from 1875 to 1974. Yanqiu Zheng discusses how Chinese individuals, organizations, and governments navigated global perceptions, developed platforms for cultural exchange, sought legitimacy, and grappled with practical challenges such as funding and access—culminating in the complex terrain of contemporary Chinese soft power.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Yanqiu Zheng’s Path to History and Book Development

[03:30–11:16]

• Zheng describes a non-linear academic trajectory: from philosophy at Peking University, to education in the U.S., before finding intellectual fulfillment in history—a field combining rigorous research with societal impact.
• Initially intended for practical fields like business, but gravitated toward understanding how education and historical context shaped societies globally.
• The process of writing the book involved negotiating infrastructure challenges, particularly the loss of archival access after leaving major research institutions.
  • Quote [06:21]: “My book is literally sitting on a pile of cash... Without all the fellowships, without all the grants you have been given throughout your career, how could you justify spending your own money, going halfway across the globe to spend month and month in archives? No, you cannot justify spending your own money that way.”

Notable Advice [11:16]:

• Both Zheng and Ramos underscore the importance of preserving scholarly resources: “You don't realize what you need until you don't have it anymore.”

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2. Challenges in China Studies

[11:16–21:08]

• Increased restrictions and uncertainties for foreign-born scholars, especially regarding border-crossing, visa/permit issues, and differing treatment in archives (anecdote about access problems in Taiwan's Presidential Office Archives at [12:37]).
• Career insecurity for early-career scholars post-pandemic due to financial cuts and shifting university priorities.
  • Quote [18:57]: “The challenge for higher education, of course is structural. It long predated the pandemic and it's continuing in 2025... Junior scholar graduate students, they need to be very, very realistic about the job prospect and what they could do outside the narrow confine of university teaching.”

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3. Book Opening—The "Good Earth" Debate

[21:08–26:21]

• Zheng elucidates why the book opens with a debate between Pearl S. Buck and Chinese reviewer Zhang Kanghu in the New York Times. This episode signifies layered power dynamics: gender, linguistic/cultural authority, and media control.
  • Quote [22:16]: “They were debating not on the platform of a Chinese newspaper, but rather New York Times...a particular kind of platform that has also a structural...advantage for the United States.”
• Resonates with ongoing questions: who gets to define China’s image, and on what terms?

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4. Defining Cultural Diplomacy

[26:21–29:53]

• Zheng rejects “laundry list” definitions (simple catalogs of cultural events) in favor of a power-centered, analytical definition.
  • Focuses on both production (content, message) and projection (who controls dissemination platforms).
  • Quote [26:21]: “I pay special attention to the projection of how the content is being disseminated on what platform, who has control over that platform, because it often gets shortchanged in the discussion...”

Infrastructure Over Institution [29:53–31:32]:

• Emphasizes material and financial underpinnings of diplomacy—not just polite intellectual exchange, but pragmatic questions of funding and access.
  • Quote: “Without money there will be no Harvard. Without money there will be no projects...”

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5. Periodization: 1875–1974

[31:32–37:39]

• 1875: Marks the Qing government’s first posting of diplomats abroad—the beginning of sustained overseas Chinese representation.
• 1974: Ended with Taiwan’s last major cultural ‘offensive’ in the US and the PRC’s high-profile National Gallery exhibition—symbolizing the PRC’s growing dominance in representing "China."
• This period signifies a “century of fractured, contested international representation of China,” after which the PRC consolidates its status.

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6. The China Institute: Rise of Infrastructure

[37:39–43:19]

• Founded in New York (1926) with Boxer Indemnity money, China Institute became a hub for Chinese cultural promotion, educational exchange, and soft diplomacy.
• It illustrated a shift from individual to institutional approaches in Chinese outreach, leveraging sustained resources and elite networks.
  • Quote [38:52]: “More than 50 years after 1875... China Institute...was already...the culmination of at least two, if not three generations of educated Chinese...doing things on their own.”

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7. State Involvement and The “Philanthropic Cold War”

[43:19–50:39]

• As the Chinese state (especially the Nationalist government) became more involved post-1940s, cultural diplomacy became both more ambitious and more entangled with funding/politics.
• After WWII, changes in treaties led the China Institute to scramble for survival. Support from American philanthropists (notably Henry Luce, Rockefeller) became both lifeline and point of political suspicion.
  • Quote [45:15]: “...that really triggered their frantic search for the next, if you will, patron saint. And they happened to found Henry Luce...”
  • “Philanthropic Cold War”: Describes Rockefeller vs. Luce, and the way donors’ private quarrels and politics shaped Chinese cultural outreach.

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8. 1950s–1970s: Competing Visions, Territorialization, and ROC’s Shifting Strategies

[50:39–57:07]

• Chapter Four focuses on the ROC/Taiwan’s efforts to maintain legitimacy through art exhibitions and global events (e.g., 1964 New York World’s Fair), often in competition with other “Chinese” representatives (like Hong Kong or US Chinatowns).

• Over the 1950s–60s, the symbolism and purposes of exhibits shifted: from demonstrating ancient legitimacy to promoting tourism in Taiwan.

  • Quote [52:23]: “...these objects were no longer just a symbol of legitimacy from ancient China, but rather they are increasingly rooted in territorial Taiwan itself...I call the Taiwan-ization of this whole endeavor...”

• Ramos points out the limits of narrative control (the ROC’s desired messages didn't always reach or resonate with American audiences):

  • Quote [57:07]: “What seemed to stick in popular memory...was the kitschy rickshaw replica at the Hong Kong Pavilion and cheap American Chinese food at the Chungking Inn.”

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9. 1970s Onward: The PRC’s Global Turn and Ongoing Quest

[57:07–64:31]

• The PRC’s 1974 blockbuster archaeological exhibits marked a new era, drawing immense crowds and overshadowing previous ROC/China Institute efforts.
• The balance of power tipped: The PRC, with greater resources and sovereign legitimacy, took the lead in global Chinese soft power.
• Contemporary Confucius Institutes and PRC endeavors reflect this state-driven approach, sparking both expansion and backlash (especially in the West).
  • Quote [59:48]: “The People's Republic of China today has a lot more control over the platform itself...Yet exactly because of that, it actually caused quite a lot of backlash in the United States and...in Western European countries...”
  • On relevance: “If I can go back to some of the phrases the other Chinese still use today, such as make China's voice heard. Right. Tell China's story well...the subtext there? Maybe they think the voice hasn't been heard, the story hasn't been told. Well, right to their liking.”

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10. Reflections and Future Directions

[64:31–69:21]

• Zheng positions “admiration and respect” as a twin goal to China’s long-standing quest for “wealth and power,” suggesting a new lens for both historians and policy analysts.
• Post-book, Zheng is exploring the cultural politics of Chinese food (e.g., tofu), reflecting how gustatory histories intersect with migration, adaptation, and identity.
• He is also involved in innovative teaching—such as team-taught courses on tea and spices in Asia—demonstrating the pedagogical connections from his earlier interests to present endeavors.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On scholarly precarity:
  18:57, Yanqiu Zheng: “Junior scholar graduate students, they need to be very, very realistic about the job prospect and what they could do outside the narrow confine of university teaching.”

• On periodization:
  32:39, Yanqiu Zheng: “1875 was the year when the Qing government first sent regular diplomats...1974...that was...the last highlight of the Nationalist government's major...cultural outreach programs in the US during the Cold War...By the mid-1970s, that was coming to settle.”

• On projecting soft power:
  26:21, Yanqiu Zheng: “I'm not satisfied with...a laundry list of things. I try to do in this book...not just looking at the production...but also...how the content is being disseminated on what platform, who has control over that platform...Production and projection.”

• On infrastructure over institutions:
  30:26, Yanqiu Zheng: “The reason why I chose the word, let's see, infrastructure rather than just institution is I want to emphasize that kind of material side of things...Without money There will be no Harvard...”

• On PRC’s expanded influence and backlash:
  59:48, Yanqiu Zheng: “The People's Republic of China today has a lot more control over the platform itself...Yet exactly because of that, it actually caused quite a lot of backlash in the United States and...in Western European countries...”

• On soft power’s shifting effectiveness:
  59:48, Yanqiu Zheng: “In the time I study, [state involvement] is often too weak, and then that's affecting the effectiveness. And nowadays it's almost the opposite, but the result isn't optimal either.”

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Engaging & Memorable Moments

• The “spicy” archival reality behind philanthropic rivalries (Rockefeller vs. Luce) gives the story unexpected human drama. [50:39]
• Moments of ironic reversal: policies meant to promote national pride actually undermined funding for cultural diplomacy. [45:15]
• The persistence—and malleability—of questions about “who gets to speak for China” from the Good Earth to Confucius Institutes. [22:16–29:53]
• Zheng’s honest discussion of career precarity and the “pile of cash” required for historical research grounds the book’s subject matter in lived academic reality. [06:21]

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Timeline of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Focus | |:--------------:|:----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:30–11:16 | Zheng’s academic background and journey to history/research hurdles | | 11:16–21:08 | Structural and personal challenges in China Studies | | 21:08–26:21 | The “Good Earth” debate—power, platforms, and representation | | 26:21–31:32 | Defining cultural diplomacy; projection vs. production; funding realities | | 31:32–37:39 | Book’s periodization and key historical transitions | | 37:39–43:19 | The founding and significance of the China Institute | | 43:19–50:39 | Rise of state involvement and the “philanthropic Cold War” | | 50:39–57:07 | Art exhibitions, territorialization, and shifting strategies in the ROC era | | 57:07–64:31 | PRC’s ascendancy in the 1970s, contemporary soft power debates | | 64:31–69:21 | Future projects: from soft power to food diplomacy and global teaching |

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Conclusion

Yanqiu Zheng’s In Search of Admiration and Respect is a detailed, critical, yet accessible examination of China’s century-long efforts to shape its image abroad through cultural diplomacy—probing not just what was said, but how, by whom, and on whose terms. Drawing on personal experiences, institutional histories, and material realities, Zheng’s narrative is a relevant reflection both on the past’s complexity and on the evolving dilemmas of soft power.

For listeners interested in international relations, history, and the workings of “soft power,” this episode offers both granular detail and big-picture insight—grounded in candid scholarly experience and thoughtful historical investigation.

Transcript

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[Yanqiao Zheng]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

Welcome back to New Books in East Asian Studies, a podcast on the New Books Network. My name is Sarah Bramau Ramos and I am one of the hosts on the channel. And I'm here today with Yanqiao Zheng to talk about his new book, In Search of Admiration and Chinese Cultural Diplomacy in the United States, 1875-1974. And this book came out in 2024 with the University of Michigan Press. And this book focuses on the institutionalization of Chinese cultural diplomacy starting at the end of the Qing when imperialism was high and China's international standing was pretty battered. And it follows this into the 20th century when the task of raising China's profile and presenting China's cultural refinement fell to the Chinese Nationalist government and York based China Institute. So in this book we see how art, culture, opera and reconstructed rickshaws took on really high stakes as China's burgeoning soft power was being negotiated and presented. So it is a fascinating history of China's modern history and of course, China's international relations. So with that, welcome to the New Books Network. Yen Qiu and thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today.

[Yanqiao Zheng]

Thank you so much, Sarah, for inviting me.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

Great. So you know, we always start at the beginning with your beginning. So how did you come to work on history?

[Yanqiao Zheng]

Wow, that is indeed the question I often ask myself. One thing I want to make clear out there in the beginning is I wasn't a history major in college. And in fact in college I was thinking I should get an MBA right sometime down the road because that's the practical field I should be in. But of that didn't happen in the end, I was a philosophy and Peking University and that's really my choice because in China's college entrance examination system I have the is, you know, willing to be put into major the school is considered decent enough. I for Peking study and then was thrown into philosophy and I really enjoyed reading some of the books, not all of them and then realized that okay, that way of thinking, reading books, good, but that way of thinking might be a little bit not my so I was looking for something more practical. And then I went into actually education because I was interested in what higher education was like in other places in different time periods. And I was really inspired by, for example, the tutorial model at Oxford, in Cambridge, and also the liberal arts model where I think you are, Sarah, in the United States. And I went into my first master's in higher education and coming to the US for my PhD in education. But after a few years in education, I realized that at least in the US iteration, the school of education is a little bit too practical for me because its main focus is on training future teachers, future school administrators and things like those. But that's not what I'm really interested in education either. And I feel that I had to find something that's both rigorous research, but also with social impact. And then I found history. And as you can probably tell, my entry into Asia also has that kind of historical perspective. And in a sense, cultural diplomacy as a project I worked on is also a pedagogical project. It's basically the Chinese really trying to teach Western powers.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

So could you talk a little bit about your journey in writing and you know, to writing this book. What was helpful to you in that process.

[Yanqiao Zheng]

For reading my acknowledgments and I hope I was being very truthful and frank about all the challenges facing Right. Historians and historians of China. Right. China studies in general in the US and especially for junior grad students out there amongst among your listeners. And I was one of well, I am still your listeners and among your listeners. But so speaking of the specific infrastructure you were referring to, let me just maybe use this one example. When PhD students in often research universities work on their dissertation, they have these days at their fingertip access to so many archives, materials and the newspapers, databases, all those at your fingertip. And then you just often take that for granted. Of course it is wonderful as compared to having to spend a lot more time reading old documents in a dusty room. But that has its own charm, of course. But guess what? Once you are out of those fabled institutions where your PhD program is, and then face the so called called real world, you realize that that kind of infrastructure is often not there. And when you really need to get on the database, cnki, I assume maybe I should elaborate. China Knowledge, ckni, China Knowledge Network something. Right? But it's the database for all academic journals in China these days. And you just don't have that kind of access anymore in many institutions because of course it's very expensive type. And if you happen to be the only China, Asia or the only non western all over here in Nungate, guess what? Your life is there for you, right? And how do you continue to get that kind of access? That can be a challenge. And in my case I am really grateful. And here I want to give a shout out to Columbia University's C. Starshin Library where I have done a lot of my own research, where I have met great librarians and including Chengjian and also Wang Chengzhi, who have helped me so much with my access and with my research and also through Modern China Seminar at Columbia, which allows me to still be involved in the field and also basically through that giving the library access that. So that kind of connection people need to cultivate kind of on own, right? When once they're out of those rarefied institutions. And that's something you cannot take for granted. And if I may. Yeah, if I may add other things too here. Well, as I mentioned specifically in the acknowledgment, my book is literally sitting on a pile of cash. And probably people might think of that as very analogy books, but let's be very honest, because without all the fellowships, without all the grants you have been given throughout your career, how could you justify spending your own money, going halfway across the globe to spend month and month in archives? No, you cannot justify spending your own money that way. Once again, not everyone has the opportunity to receive all those grants, not every deserving scholar. And I have not gotten a lot. A lot. But I have had my share of Those small things here and there so that I together to, you know, make my research possible. So that's also something people can no longer can never take granted, take for granted. And I am also very grateful for. So that's, I think another key piece of the infrastructure you refer to. But of course there are other things I mentioned there and I can stop for now and then let you ask other questions.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

No, the one piece of advice I received before I finished my PhD was to download everything. And they were the person who gave me that advice. I thank them deeply, very often for it. But that advice came from, you know, you don't realize what you need until you don't have it anymore. You don't realize the journal articles that you thought you would one day look at and you didn't and now you don't have access to it anymore. So yeah, like I said, it's one of the pieces of advice I most appreciate someone giving me. So thank you for underscoring that again. Again here you mentioned at the very beginning of your answer to that question though you know, challenges and you also note in your acknowledgments that this book, your book was completed at a time when China Studies is facing increasing challenges. And you know, your book came out in 2024. Things haven't changed that much. You know, the things have not gotten better, I guess sitting here in a little bit later in 2025. But so looking back on your book, how might your book have looked different had you been starting it now or had you been working on it now?

[Yanqiao Zheng]

Yeah, that's a painful question. But I guess answering can also give my some perspective of what I have been doing and kind of giving others some kind of perspective on what they can realistically do. And I think for disclosure in the beginning I was born and raised in China and later came to study and work in the United States. So as a non citizen, right scholar who is working in a field where there are not as many international students as compared to say engineering or computer science, right? So there is a layer of challenge there and immobility in crossing borders I cannot always take for granted. In my own case, for example, when I go to Taiwan, I. Well, funny thing is I'm treated as neither a domestic nor a foreign person. So I'm kind of in that limbo status, right? So that has its own challenges because I always need to find a host and the host needs to petition my case through their immigration bureaucracy before I am given not technically a visa. Because you know, a visa, right. Means Something and neither government across the Taiwan Strait wants to admit in paper, right. Specifically. But I'm given an entry permit, right? And that entry permit allows me to stay there for, you know, specified amount of time. But with that, I am basically not allowed to go into certain depositories in Taiwan. And for example, the Presidential palace archive, not president. Is it called Presidential Palace? No, presidential office archives. I actually was there for, let's see, 10 minutes in the beginning of 2015. This is kind of a funny story because I. I just filled out the online application. I don't think there they specifically asked for my citizenship per se. They just my passport number. And I just put down and I got the confirmation and I went not long after that year's Chinese New Year, I spent Chinese New Year 2015 actually in Taiwan. And I went in and so I was talking was fine. And until basically the last, literally the box of documents I requested onto the desk in a small room in the presidential office somewhere in one corridor. And they asked me, okay, where is your passport? And I gave them my passport. And without opening it, they oh, you have this passport? And I said, yeah, I have this passport. And they say, ah, you know what, we need to double check whether this is all kosher with this passport. And then they immediately took the boxes away, not leaving me with the boxes in the same room. And then a few minutes later, they came back in and said, you know what, we probably have to escort you out because this passport, you cannot look at these dogs. They are very nice. They are very nice. I have to give them that. And they said, you can actually ask one of your local friends to come in and take full. Which I did later pester someone else to do that for me. But that just tells you, right? Even in places like Taiwan, access to these critical documents can no longer be taken for granted. And depending on the passport you travel with, it can be an issue. So I would say the short answer to your question would be, these days, people in my position working on this topic, they need to think very, very carefully. And I would like to say basically, no, it's not a great option at this moment. You probably need to think about other projects which rely less on these types of materials in government archives, but rather something else. Right? And well, so that's right, that's the passport piece. And in Taiwan, but in the U.S. especially in the past few years, let's see, during the pandemic, higher education, of course, faced a lot of challenges. I had a tenure Track job until 2021 for three years and then the university decided not to renew their contracts for junior faculty members, me included, for allegedly enrollment reasons. And for me, that is just a job that's also a reason to stay in the country. And losing the job means that I have a very limited amount of time to take care of my employment. Otherwise I have to, well, go back to China during the height of the pandemic. So in that sense, having to do deal with that challenge while thinking about what I could do to my PhD dissertation and then shepherding it through the publication process, that's of course another big challenge out there. Not while everyone of course, but would guess in boss Asian Studies there are a chunk of practitioners in this field who are still dealing with these issues. And that's something I do not want to minimize and want to be very honest about. And so those are the two things. And well, if I may just add one more thing. The challenge for higher education, of course is structural. It long predated the pandemic and it's continuing in 2025 with a very different White House, of course. And that just means these fields in universities are going to face more and more financial strain, even at major, major research universities where Sarah, you and I got my PhD, Harvard and Northwestern. So it just means that people entering the field, especially right now, junior scholar graduate students, they need to be very, very realistic about the job prospect and what they could do outside the narrow confine of university teaching. I mean, when I left Northwestern, I wasn't actively thinking these things. I mean, of course I was aware, but we, I guess some point or like I must be the lucky few who can do X, Y, Z. But life happens to you without you knowing it. And then, well, now of course what I do is, well, not directly. Well, I'm still teaching at my current position, St. Lawrence University, but my main job is something else. Promoting more students study abroad in the Asia Pacific region while trying to still find time for my own research and writing. So in this case I get to use the skills I have learned in graduate school in a different way. But I just have a feeling that this is something more and more people need to think very proactively about. So I think I want to also put that out there because of my experience and I think I owe it to your listeners and to myself to be honest about that.

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[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

So, you know, we've been talking about all of the challenges that, you know, that you had to go through to come to this book and thank you for doing that and, you know, making that very realistic explanation of how this book came to be. So with that, I do want to bring us to your book and actually to the opening of your book because it stood out to me, because you open your book with, I guess, in a place that I maybe wasn't expecting. You open with reviews of the novel the Good Earth by Pearl S. Buck, and in particular a quote, stinging critique, end quote, made by a male Chinese reviewer and Buck's spirited rejoiner. And I'm again quoting from you there. So it's a really interesting episode. It's maybe not where I thought looking at your book, it might begin. So I guess I'm curious about this episode. What do you think it tells us this, like, what was this moment encapsulating for you and why did you decide to open your book here?

[Yanqiao Zheng]

Well, I think that debate there really symbolizes the different power dynamic between male versus female. Right. I think that's something we shouldn't overlook there. And also native. Well, native in a sense, native Chinese speaker versus non native Chinese speaker. Right. And also scholarly class. That's the male Chinese scholar's background, Zhang Kang Hu's background versus Pearl Buck, who spent a lot of time in the Northern part of the Anhui province, where she actually gathered materials for Good Earth and many other novels she has written, she wrote on the Chinese countryside. So there is all these intertwined, intertwined layers of power difference right there. Right. And also, let's not forget, in the end, they were debating not on the platform of a Chinese newspaper, but rather New York Times. Right. And New York Times, of course, being a particular kind of platform that has also a structural. Right. Structural advantage for the United States, in a sense, because that's where people are debating people, because people want to be seen and heard on that platform, rather than a different kind of platform. So I think that really sets the tone, if you will, for a lot of the substantive power dynamics I really delve into in my book, and that's why I begin there. And also, I think Pearl Box still has that kind of name recognition. Zhang Kong, who might not as much, but that gives you really a window into what seems to be a bygone era. But if you think about some of the contemporary Chinese rhetoric which I refer to in the end of my book, in the epilogue, for example, to tell China's story well and to make China's voice heard, and where do they do those things often, while 10 years ago China had a big advertisement blitz. Guess where? Times Square, New York City. Right. Why? Right. So you see that it's not just the challenges, the power differences from a bygone era, but it's still resonating with us.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

And of course, what they are, you know, as you, as you touched on there and as you were talking about before, when it comes to, you know, connecting your interest in education, in this book, they're talking about, you know, who gets to say what about China. Right. On the very basic level that that debate is about what can you say, who gets to say it. As you said, there's a lot coming in with regards to who is saying it and their own backgrounds and the, the. There's the gender dimension and the scholarly class dimension, but they're fundamentally arguing about who gets to say what about China. And. Yeah. And how do you justify, I guess, what it is that you're saying about. About China? So it's, it's a fascinating episode as, as you, as you open with it, with that, you know, we're talking about who gets to say what about China. Which brings us to kind of at the heart of your book, this book is about cultural diplomacy. And as you explain in the beginning of your book, this is something of a loaded term. So could you explain what this Means in the context of your book, what is cultural diplomacy as you are using it here? And what is this term doing for you in your book?

[Yanqiao Zheng]

So that's still a question I often wrestle with because indeed a two word phrase often is. Eludes a very clear definition there. And I can begin with what I imagine it not to be, something I am not satisfied with, which kind of motivated me to do something different. So often what we see in existing references to this phrase, cultural diplomacy is a laundry list of things. Exhibitions here, people to people, exchange programs there, blah, blah, blah, right? That kind of thing. So basically any kind of, if you will, quote unquote, non coercive, right? Not military engagement, not armed conflicts can fall under this umbrella. And I don't like that kind of very descriptive laundry list kind of approach. So what I try to do in this book with this term is not just looking at the, the production, right, the content creation side, who is saying what, right? As you were talking about the debate between Zhang Ang Hu and Pearl Bach, but also I pay special attention to the projection of how the content is being disseminated on what platform, who has control over that platform. Because it often gets, gets shortchanged in the discussion in that people pay more attention to the production, to the content side and kind of assuming the content will just reach people, right. No matter what. But guess what? No, it's not just automatic. You need a lot of behind the scene work to really let the message, let your content resonate. And especially not just production, but also projection, really tell the power dynamic. We need to be very clear eyed about. And in my own case, coming to study and work in the United States, I have to say I was once very starry eyed about intercultural encounters and all the possibilities coming with it, right? But now, after the pandemic, after my own career changes in the United States, I realized that culturing encounter is not just woman fuzzy, right? It's embedded in inequality, right? In who has the power to control the, to control the platform, to control the infrastructure, right? Persuasion, what I call in the book, so that the content gets filtered, gets, gets obscured, gets amplified, gets disseminated, whatever verb you want to use there. So that's kind of my approach to cultural diplomacy. So basically making it rather than an descriptive term, but rather a more analytical term which can help us get to the power dynamic, power differentials. So I think that's what I'm trying to get at.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

And you know, as you're talking there about, you know, the projection of the message, I was thinking that you know, so much of your book is about the creation of the platform. Right. Or at least the creation of the organization that's going to have the platform or, you know, the creation of. Yeah, the creation of the front to do the dissemination. Right. The getting that going and financing that process. Right. So getting. Being able to project, I guess, if that makes sense. Or at least that was kind of what I was picking up as I was reading your book.

[Yanqiao Zheng]

It does. And the reason why I chose the word, let's see, infrastructure rather than just institution is I want to emphasize that kind of material side of things. And in higher ed, where I have been a long time and also the nonprofit world, I dabbled in a little bit. I worked at the Social Science Research Council for a little over two years. Often in these circles there is the tendency to be quote, unquote, polite. Right. You shouldn't be talking about money because that's not polite. But let's be honest, without money, there will be no Harvard. Without money, there will be no projects at the social science research company. And so that's why I think infrastructure really emphasizes that kind of material nature of the platform. And we just cannot be polite, so to speak about it. We have to be very upfront. So, yeah, that's also one of the reasons.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

We will come back to the money. I will say that because there is, as we get a little bit further deeper into your book, a, there's. There is quite a bit of trying to figure out. You follow different actors as they're trying to figure out where is the money going to come from and how do we keep the money flowing. So I just want to put a pit in that we will return to the money. But I want to just ask you about your periodization. So as we're talking about, your book focuses on the projection of this message, the creation of this infrastructure during the period or from 1875 to 1974. And, and that's maybe not the most usual periodization, I guess it kind of comes sort of late Qing, but way beyond. So you're kind of crossing across time periods that most people put into different boxes. So I guess very broadly, why did you decide or to kind of do that? And what is that sort of showing you showing, you know, what is that helping us see in your book? Book.

[Yanqiao Zheng]

Thanks for the question. And that, let's see, that periodization is also something I had to constantly justify, not just to my dissertation committee, but later right to the publisher and of course to myself too. The reason why I settle on this seemingly Long period of century, but not really directly align with familiar marks in modern Chinese history is 1875 was the year when the Qing government first sent regular diplomats to be posted in Western nations. So that was really the beginning of educated Chinese being able to stay abroad for an extended period of time and is exactly among people like them. And I have used the example of, for example, Zeng Zizi, who was the second son of the famed politician statesman Zengofan, right. In Lei Ching, who was an ambassador to various Western European powers and also Russia, I think, if I remember correctly. And it was among these people who first came up with the idea of the need for communist cultural diplomacy in China. Right. Of course, it was still a very inchoate idea, and they were ahead of their time in a sense that the government, the Qing government, was definitely more preoccupied with other things and, if you will, with the gunboat. Right. Something more material. The government did not have time to think more about the symbolic, the cultural sphere yet. Right. And that was the beginning. And 1974, I ended there because that was, for me, for the purpose of my project, a momentous year. Why? Because that was the second, basically, Peking Opera troupe from Taiwan coming to the US after 1973. They did it first in 73 and then second time 74. And that was, I think, the last highlight of the Nationalist government major, if you will, cultural outreach programs in the US during the Cold War. And exactly in the same year as that Peking Opera touring troupe was wrapping up their performances on the west coast in the Los Angeles area, if I remember correctly, the People's Republic of China's Archaeological Finds blockbuster show opened at the National Gallery of Arts exactly in December, and Also earlier in 1974, unknown to the world yet outside Xi', an, terracotta warriors, a few peasants, when they were digging the well, they happened to find a few curious pieces. And then that was the beginning of the excavation there. So 1974 was that momentous year, I would argue, the beginning of the People's Republic of China's general consolidation of China's international representation. And of course, that's already, let's see, a few years right after their entry to the UN and ousting the Republic of China seat. Right? So 1970s, mid-1970s was, right, that general consolidation by the People's Republic of China's international representation. So the previous century, from 1875 to 1870, 1975 to 1974, was this century of very fractured, contested international representation of China. And by the mid-1970s, that was coming to Settle. Right. So my book focuses on that unsettling period where different Chinese actors. Right. I mainly focus on while the Qing government didn't do a lot, so the main government I focus on was the Nationalists, both on the mainland and later after 1949 in Taiwan, and also an offshore, what I call offshore cultural organization, the China Institute in America, which had a very entangled relationship with the government. So that's what I focus on during that time period.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

You've set up those two bookends really beautifully. So with those two as our ends, let's dive into the century of contested, fractured representation, which is, as you say, what your book focuses on. So your book consists of five body chapters and they move chronologically through this period. So chapter one, slow Institutionalization, as you choose, just sort of laid out for us, highlights the period from 1875 to 1940. And so here you have, we have China in a period of national crisis and upheaval. And you, as you say, you have the beginning of educated Chinese going abroad for the first time and starting to get the idea that China needed to do more cultural diplomacy. And during this period you also have the founding of the China Institute, as you just sort of said, this offshore, interesting organization. So because it comes up so much throughout your book, could you talk a little bit about it? What do we kind of need to know about this strange offshore institute? What were some of the purposes that it had kind of in mind when it was first set up?

[Yanqiao Zheng]

Yeah, so China Institute was founded in New York City in 1926, so basically 99 years ago. And it started with the money coming from the China foundation for the Promotion of Education and Culture, which was the result of the second batch of Boxer indemnity remission from the US government in the mid-1920s. And it really had broad support between both Chinese and also American cultural and business political elites in that China needed this kind of operation in the United States to make the US Public more knowledgeable about what China is and what they could learn from Chinese culture and then educational exchange between the two countries. And the main promoters, as I mentioned mentioned in the book, were, let's see, the founding director, Guo Bingwen, who was also the founding president of National Southeast University in China, and also Paul Munro, who was a very well known professor at Teachers College, Columbia. And Guo Bingwen himself also got his PhD from Teachers College, Columbia. So the China Institute has a lot of connections to Columbia University. And in fact, 1926 readers might have already picked up on that. That's already 50 years after more than 50 years after 1875. So in that sense, the China Institute, its funding was already, I would say, the culmination of at least two, if not three generations of educated Chinese, beginning with those diplomats being posted abroad. Right. And later, more and more Chinese students going to study abroad, realizing that, okay, we need this kind of cultural outreach, beginning with while newspaper articles by individual scholars. I have used the example of famous Chinese intellectuals such as Zhang Shijia, who later was of course a major figure figure. Right. During the culture, kind of May 4th. Right. That circle. And also who was Mao Zedong's English teacher, if I remember correctly. Right. Zhang Shijia, who studied at University of aberdeen in the UK in the 1910s and then publishing articles rebutting missionary depictions of China. Right. But that was just individuals doing these things when they had the time and the bandwidth, if you will. Right. It's not an organized approach. It's not an infrastructural undertaking. While the China institute, by the 1920s, mid-1920s, it had the backing, at least in the beginning, from the China foundation for the Promotion of Education and Culture, to do this on a more institutionalized platform. So that's why I said it's already the culmination of a few generations of Chinese. Right. Doing things on their own. And I mentioned the example of Zhang Shijia. And also people like, well, why am I suddenly blanking on the name of the Gu. Right. For example. Right. They have been. They have been written their own books and then writing newspaper articles. But that's your individual efforts. Yet China Institute really represented a more organized approach, which is really essential to what I call cultural diplomacy in my book. So in that sense, of course I am aware of the individual icons, but I think to make this sustainable in the long run, we need to go way beyond the individual icons to look at the less exciting side of the things.

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[Yanqiao Zheng]

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[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

I mean, we see that sort of, that increasing institutionalization, the, I guess, increasing less exciting side of things, but very practical, very necessary, very essential side of things further into your book. So moving into chapter two, government learning, we see things changing with Chinese cultural diplomacy as the Chinese state gets involved. Right. So you're talking about you have these individuals, then you have the more institutions, then you have the state getting involved. And here is the Nationalist government sort of stepping up, trying to do more to present Chinese cultural refinement in particular on the international stage. So you talk about some of the different Shi shows that China is involved in, both in the UK and the United States. And this sort of, this increasing involvement of the state continues then into chapter three, Contingent Confluence. And I just want to highlight this chapter because this is kind of where we see some of the money that I mentioned before. So this chapter, 1943-1958, covers some pretty turbulent years for both China and the China Institute, which during this period is going through some real challenges in terms of finding money and finding ways to raise money in an increasingly politicized environment. So everything is happening against the backdrop of the Chinese Civil War and the Korean War. So the Institute's relationship with donors is just constantly in flux, and they're constantly trying to figure that out. But in charting the history of these relationships with donors, you talk about how there was during this period a philanthropic Cold war, which is the phrase I really enjoyed. So I'm going to ask you to talk about it. Could you just touch on a little bit what was this Cold War and kind of what did it mean for China's cultural diplomacy, especially with the United States?

[Yanqiao Zheng]

Yeah, so basically the financial challenges for the China Institute really intensified starting in 1940, 43, 44, and because of something which was widely reported in China as a very good thing for the country. So that's a little bit ironic. So I'm talking about the new treaty between China and the United States Basically, the US relinquishing, let's see, extraterritoriality in China after basically a century. And that was widely celebrated in China as really the final fulfillment of national rejuvenation and all of that. Yet a very practical implication for an organization like the China Institute was the money trouble. Why? Because the China foundation, right, for the promotion of education and culture, was its main backer, and that came from the second batch of the Boxer Indemnity, right? And after that new treaty, the. Let's see, the Minister of Education, if I remember correctly, Cheng Lifu, right back then, was proposing to abolish all institutions supported by the Boxer Indemnity, because in his eyes, it was all symbols of national humiliation. So from this point on, since China had shaken up all shackles of imperialism, those institutions should not exist. And then, and that is big trouble for the China Institute, because China foundation finance is from that money. And then if the government is going to nationalize all that, where is money going to come from? And that really trigger their frantic search for the next, if you will, patron saint. And they happened to found Henry Luce, who of course, had a lot of China connections and also the director of the China Institute. Then Meng Zhi, who was a Tsinghua graduate and also befriended Henry Luce's father when Luz the junior was teaching at Yanjing University. Yanjing University, of course, gave, well, my alma mater, Peking University, its current campus. And Yanjing and Tsinghua used to be neighbors, and now it's Beidan Tsinghua. So. So from there, let's see, Paul Meng, Meng Zhi's English name, Meng, got Lucy's backing and Loos's backing really got the attention of the Nationalist government as it was trying to find a cause to support in the United States so that it can get more favorable US Policy towards China. At least that's the government's calculation. Yet as I show in this chapter, the government's calculation was actually quite off because Luce's intention in supporting the China Institute wasn't mainly political, but rather focusing more on the cultural side. Of course, Luce was an ardent supporter of the Nationalist government, but his support of the government and his support of the China Institute were more separate than the government realized. And as all this was going on, as you mentioned, the Chinese civil War and the Korean War, the loose and the Nationalist connection actually spooked other potential donors. And I used the example of the Rockefellers, because the Rockefellers had the largest foreign philanthropic presence in China after 1949, and they really wanted to save that after 1940, and all this loose and nationalist business just made them really wonder what the China Institute was up to. So they gradually distanced themselves from the Institute. And also there was some kind of personal dynamic there between uber rich people of the day. Right, John? The Rockefeller III versus Henry Lewis. Maybe Luce wasn't contributing enough to Rockefeller's other projects, and in return, Rockefeller wasn't supporting Luce's project. That kind of dynamic too. So that's how these individual dynamics and then individual connections and then miscalculations got amplified, got twisted because of that very politicized era. So in that sense, we can call that philanthropic Cold war. But I'm glad the term sticks and yai Hope readers can also get some juicy gossip about what rich people were up to, dissing each other basically behind the scenes.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

I have to imagine that some of that juiciness, I guess, comes out or came out in some of the different archival records or the Institute's publications or records that you were drawing on for this chapter. I'm going to with assume, based on the papers that I've seen myself of uber rich people fighting, that there were some spicy documents that went into some of this. But I do want to make sure that we have enough time, now that we've sort of touched on the money, have enough time to talk about the very end, the end bookmark of your book. But before we get there, I just wanted to mark chapter four, almost solo shows, which focuses on the mid-1950s and 1960s, when it was really, really the Republic of China, the roc, Taiwan, that was leading the charge for China's cultural diplomacy. And this chapter focuses on two sets of shows that the Nationalist government put together. The Chinese Art Treasures exhibitions, which went on in five major museums, and then the 1964 New York World's Fair. And so these are really interesting examples and shows. You talk, for example, about, about how the ROC Pavilion, I think this is at the World's Fair, was competing for patronage against entrepreneurs from Chinatown, the United States and even from Hong Kong who were all vying to kind of present their vision of what China was. So I just want to mark this, that there's a lot going on, but is there anything in particular that you want to highlight or emphasize about these shows or about China's cultural diplomacy in this period?

[Yanqiao Zheng]

Yeah, so of course that chapter focuses more on the Nationalist side after they moved to Taiwan. But I want to begin by saying that of course, the prc, at least until the eve of the Cultural Revolution, was not totally neglecting these ancient art forms for Example Peking Opera, right. And the PRC actually sent a successful, well dispatched its performance troops to Western Europe, for example, trying to also win the hearts and minds. But as people can see in that chapter, I have done some comparison between the PRC framing and then the ROC framing in terms of what they are doing, right? The PRC framing was more on the masses, on the proletariat and working class. This is the result of working class labor kind of framing. Yet the ROC's framing was more on the antiquity and legitimacy of their rule in Taiwan. Because let's be honest, the territory, the Nationalist dual rule was much, much smaller than what they had in the 1930s and early 1940s. So that's one of the few tools they have in their toolbox to justify to legitimate their rule. Right? And that's right, a big point I want to make here. But on the other hand, if we look at the roc, the Nationalist own self legitimation right across that period, from the 1950s into the mid-1960s, I think there are also important changes there we need to pay attention to, which also sets the stage for what happened in the 1970s, later 60s and into the 1970s. And it is this basically in the 1950s, as the nationalist government was preparing for the Chinese cultural, preparing for the Chinese art treasures show, right. In the United States, the main focus of those artists objects was still then being the object of antiquity legitimacy, right? Focusing on that almost exclusively. Yet into the mid-1960s, at the 1964 World's Fair, some similar objects also showed up at the fairground in New York City near today's Flushing. And the interesting thing there is the framing is no longer longer just about antiquity per se, but rather about these objects also being tourist attractions in Taiwan itself, where foreign visitors can visit. And then with that, the government can can earn, excuse me, the government can earn more foreign exchange.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

So.

[Yanqiao Zheng]

So as you see from the 1950s into the 1960s, these objects were no longer just a symbol of legit legitimacy from ancient China, but rather they are increasingly rooted in territorial Taiwan itself. Because when it comes to tourism, right, attracting foreign tourists, you cannot just talk about the mainland as the lost homeland. Because, well, if it's lost, then people cannot go, not under your watch, right? And you need to invite people to visit places you still have control over. And because of that, those objects are increasingly rooted in Taiwan itself, in the framing. That's what I call the Taiwanization of this whole endeavor of cultural diplomacy by the Nationalist government from the 50s into the 60s and continued a pace into the 1970s. As their claim to representing China became more and more fictional. Right. Especially after the oust from the UN and then all those political cascades in the 70s.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

You've brought us beautifully into chapter five, but I wanted to think a little bit about. You talk about the increasingly fictionalization. We see that a little bit in Chapter four for. Too right. In terms of. I'm thinking in particular about. You talk about how the World's Fair was maybe not as successful as the Nationalist government would have wanted. Right. In. In terms of their message is not received as they wanted or it doesn't land as they. As they wanted. You have this great line about how what seemed to stick in popular memory regarding China during the sizzling summer of 1964 was the kitchi rickshaw replica at the Hong Kong Pavilion and cheap American Chinese. Chinese food at the Chungking Inn. So even there's this sort of fiction going on too, where they're trying to craft these messages, but they don't always get out or they don't always land. That part is hard to control. So I just wanted to kind of mark that because I thought it was a really interesting sort of connection between the two. But you brought us to Chapter five, which is where I will now take us. And this chapter is titled A Different Landscape, and it sees a lot of change, as you just outlined. So. So it covers the People's Republic of China becoming the new mainstream institutional actor for Chinese cultural diplomacy. We also have Henry Luce passing away. So there's lots of changes. And it ends with, as you've mentioned before, when you were talking about the period that your book covers, the PRC's blockbuster exhibition of archaeological finds. And you point out that at the national gallery alone, the 400 or so objects that were of part. Part of this tour attracted more than 680,000 visitors. So it's just really overshadowing much of what the China Institute has done or is doing. And this overshadowing then continues in the epilogue, where you talk about how the PRC has really taken on the mantle of being the active promoter of Chinese language and culture overseas citizens since the 1970s. And so you end your epilogue noting that the history of Chinese cultural diplomacy is a long one and that China's quest for admiration and respect is thus ongoing. So kind of bringing us up to the present day, or, you know, near as close as historians are comfortable getting. So maybe not quite up to today, but the general period. How would you kind of characterize China's current quest for admiration and respect in relation maybe to the history that you've laid out in your book.

[Yanqiao Zheng]

So if we are talking about the People's Republic of China today, right. Its efforts in trying while through platforms such as the Confucius Institute. Right. As I mentioned in my book, of course, the situation is very different in that back in the day. Back in the day, what my book covers, the Nationalist government often had very weak control, weak if zero control over the platform itself. For example, the New York World's Fair, the fair organizers in New York, they dictated the actual terms of how different participants can participate. And in the 1970s, when the nationalist government upped its game by not just sending steel objects, steel museum objects, but dispatching real people on a live show for live shows, right, they were still often at the mercy of the commercial impresario, Right, because they had to rely on those people who often set the terms. And in that sense, the People's Republic of China today has a lot more control over the platform itself. Right, the Confucianist Institute. Yet exactly because of that, it actually caused quite a lot of backlash in the United States and in select Western European countries and also in Canada too, I think, while of course, in most of the global south, it's still ongoing and expanding. So I think there, it's a good place to reflect on the relationship between the government and then the infrastructure itself, to what extent you can hold onto it to achieve maximal, optimal, if I may use that word, optimal effectiveness of your cultural diplomacy, cultural outreach. In the time I study, it's often too weak, and then that's affecting the effectiveness. And nowadays it's almost the opposite, but the result isn't optimal either. So that just means it's not just, Well, how do I put it? So it is still a relevant topic even for today, even though the context has changed so much. And on the other hand, if I may add in historiographical dimension here, for so long, the rallying cry for modern Chinese intellectuals to rejuvenate the country is wealth and power. And also for so long, wealth and power has been the defining focus of modern Chinese historiography, at least in the English language. So in that sense, I want to inject admiration and respect as another twin goal in not just the historiography, but also what the country has always been looking after. And if I can go back to some of the phrases the Chinese still use today, such as make China's voice heard, tell China's story. Well, right? What's the subtext there? Maybe they think the voice hasn't been heard, the story hasn't Been told well, right. To their liking. And then how do you tell the story then? Right. And of course, there are different ways. And as I often joke with people, if you don't disagree, if you disagree with someone, what do you do? Do you pound the table? Right. That's one way of responding, responding it, but might not be the most effective. So are there more effective ways of engaging the differences? And I think. Right, that's a topic the Chinese are still figuring out today. And I don't think I have the definitive answer. And here I need to use the historian as a cover. Right. To. To avoid making any predictions. But I think in that sense, my study is to. All are relevant.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

No, absolutely. The search remains ongoing, both for China and many parts of the world at the moment, especially as different programs and approaches towards cultural diplomacy are changing and are in flux, and different programs and policies and outreaches are changing their shapes and their nature. So in that respect, from one reader, I think it is very much still relevant, your work and your study. And it is, you know, in and of itself a fascinating history. So thank you for, you know, as we talked about at the beginning, for pulling on all the different resources and opportunities and difficulties moving through them to bring this to fruition. But now that you are finished with this book and now that it is out in the world, Yantiao, what are you working on now? What is inspiring you or puzzling you or occupying your mind at the moment?

[Yanqiao Zheng]

Well, let's see. Especially after coming to the us I have been more and more interested in food as not just a daily necessity, but also a topic of study. And I never cooked in China and it was must. It has been a must. After I came to the US for both culinary reasons and also economic reasons. And that really got me thinking about the fluid meanings of Chinese food. And I published one article on Chinese tofu, which is this edited volume by the famed female author from Taiwan, Lin Hai. That edited volume came out in 1971. So I analyzed the cultural politics surrounding that. So that's kind of a beginning of an ongoing project. I'm still thinking, but as we talked about in the beginning, any kind of book length project, it needs that kind of infrastructure, and I can no longer take that for granted. So being where I am now, not in that kind of tenure track position, so I might not be able to make as much progress as I want about the writing itself. But on the other hand, I also think of food as something which is very inviting to engage with colleagues, with students. In my current position, I still teach. And I actually co taught a summer course with a biologist who was born and raised in India and whose specialty is actually south and Southeast Asia. And we, we co taught the summer course in Hong Kong and Sri Lanka, which is on tea and spices and their ecological and historical significance. This is the first ever course of its sort at my institution now and we were lucky to have 10 wonderful students and they all loved experience. And I think it's really inspiring to see younger people paying attention and learning so much from this kind of team taught course between the biologist and a historian and spanning across different parts of Asia and really disabusing them of the notion of Asia simply as one. Right. But rather there are different kinds of Asia and also tea and spices in their different iterations in different cultural contexts. So that's also something I take a lot of pride in and because if, well again, if we use education as my ongoing goal. Right. So education not just through my own writing, but also through this kind of direct interaction with younger people because we trust that with their digital savvy, know how they can scale up. Right. Help promote this kind of messaging even more effectively than I could ever imagine. So. So those are the things I have been continuing to think about. Right. Food related, but in different ways. My own writing, but also interacting with students and colleagues this way.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

Hmm, Fascinating. It sounds like that's both a project that might have outputs in terms of your own writing, but also might have outputs in ways that are hard to predict in the ways that it's hard to imagine what our students go on to do. But it sounds like this is the kind of project that might have afterlives in those ways. So it sounds like something that again, might have fascinating outputs and long afterlives in different manifestations. So my best of luck and best wishes with that project in whatever way, shape or form it comes to an end that you are happy with. So best of luck with that. But thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me about this book.

[Yanqiao Zheng]

Thank you, of course, again, for inviting me. I really enjoyed the conversation.

[Sarah Bramau Ramos]

Sam.