Podcast Summary:

New Books Network — Interview with Yi-Ling Liu, Author of "The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet"
Date: February 12, 2026
Host: Nicholas Gordon
Guest: Yi-Ling Liu

Overview

This episode features a conversation between Nicholas Gordon and Yi-Ling Liu about Liu’s new book, The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet (Knopf, 2026). The book traces the history and evolution of the Chinese internet from its origins in the 1990s through the generative AI era of the 2020s, exploring themes of freedom, constraint, and creativity through the stories of activists, artists, and entrepreneurs navigating China’s increasingly regulated digital landscape.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Chronicle the Chinese Internet's 2000s-2010s Era?

• [01:42]
  • Yi-Ling Liu explains the period's unique energy: it was "a particularly vibrant and freewheeling period," marked by optimism and the belief that the internet could make China more open and connected to the world.
  • The early 2000s saw a flourishing of “an active online civil society, influx of foreign music, culture, film, literature... the rise of tech entrepreneurs and the burgeoning of the mobile internet.”
  • Liu wanted to capture the “vibe and the origin stories and the energy” of this optimistic and now-unrepeatable period.

2. Title Explained: "Wall Dancers"

• [03:55]
  • "Dancing in shackles" was a phrase among Chinese journalists to describe creative work under state constraint, later adopted by musicians, writers, engineers.
  • The "dance" reflects the “dynamic push and pull between state and society... to navigate a society that is constantly shifting between freedom and control.”
  • The “wall” is the Great Firewall; “dancers” are those adept at “navigating this shifting terrain.”

3. Openness and the Great Firewall: Then vs. Now

• [05:46]
  • “Openness is quite relative,” says Liu; the Great Firewall (Golden Shield Project) existed since 1997.
  • In the 2000s, the firewall was “much more open and much more porous than it is today.”
  • Example: In 2011, Weibo featured liberal discussions impossible now. The number of censors at companies multiplied dramatically: “from maybe 150... now [it] would be in the tens of thousands.”
  • Today, censorship extends beyond criticism of the government, including “unhealthy marital values, sissy boys, flaunting of wealth.”

4. Personal Story Reflections: Ma Ba Li and BlueD

• [09:50]
  • Ma Ba Li discovers gay identity through an online story (“Beijing Comrade”) in late 1990s, founds a gay forum, later BlueD—eventually the world’s largest gay dating app.
  • Ma’s trajectory parallels China’s internet story: “His coming out journey almost entirely mirrors this kind of romance of the Internet as this force of liberalization.”
  • BlueD’s rise echoes China’s hope and opening up; sudden reversals with the app’s delisting mirror crackdowns.
  • Memorable quote:

    “Here’s a society where a gay dating app could go public on the New York Stock Exchange and then get shut down the next year.” – Yi-Ling Liu [03:55]

5. Turning Points: When Optimism Ended

• [14:30]
  • Difficult to pinpoint, but Liu notes several shifts:
    • 2008 financial crisis: Leadership saw “failed Western liberalization” and veered away.
    • Weibo Spring (2009–2011): A period of mobilization—culminated in the Wenzhou train crash response and subsequent tightening.
    • Global context: Arab Spring (“Twitter revolution”) demonstrated how social media could topple regimes.
    • Creation of Cyberspace Administration of China: Centralized control over previously fragmented internet regulation.

6. Inside the Censorship Machine

• [17:58]
  • Profile of Eric Liu, a Weibo censor (2010–2011):
    • Censorship was a “human endeavor,” not only algorithmic but a job done by people.
    • Dramatic growth: “The sensitive keyword base... grew dramatically. Like by 400 times within a year, the number of hires almost doubled.”
    • Censors developed new measures: shadow bans, user removal, etc.
    • Memorable quote:

      “The firewall is a human endeavor... there are humans who are performing this labor every single day.” – Yi-Ling Liu [18:21]

7. Artists and Creatives—The Hip Hop Case

• [21:10]
  • Case of Cafe Hu, rapper from Sichuan:
    • The internet as “incubator for new cultures,” importing hip hop, Western music.
    • The sudden mainstreaming of hip hop via Douyin/TikTok and “Rap of China” TV show showcases how quickly subcultures could go viral, attract censorship.
    • “Visibility, too much visibility, can also be a bad thing”—Cafe learns to adapt and retreat after hip hop is banned from TV.

8. Parallel with Tech Tycoons: Jack Ma and Ma Ba Li

• [24:35]
  • Both started ventures during periods of opening, innovation, and government encouragement, then faced tightening and regulatory backlash.
  • Shift from “Chinese knockoffs” to genuine innovation—e.g., BlueD (not just a “Chinese Grindr”) and WeChat (envied by Mark Zuckerberg).
  • Later, both experience the perils of prominence: “All entrepreneurs... have to navigate this kind of fluctuating relationship with a state that swings between patronage and antagonism.”
  • Memorable quote:

    “Jack Ma's career very much mirrors that too... the story of Chinese innovation shifting.” – Yi-Ling Liu [25:38]

9. Yi-Ling Liu’s Personal Perspective

• [28:39]
  • Grew up in Hong Kong, was among a generation who believed in the “romance” and democratic potential of the internet.
  • As a young journalist in 2017 Beijing, encountered a more advanced yet much more tightly managed online ecosystem.
  • Chose each profile (hip hop, queer, feminist, science fiction writers) based on her own questions—how to create, connect, find meaning, and solidarity under constraint.

10. The “What’s Next” Question: AI and Regulation

• [33:26]
  • Big uncertainty: how China will regulate AI, and whether citizens will adapt new tech under old (or new) constraints.
  • Early signs of loosening to spur AI innovation; focus shifting from consumer internet/apps to “hard” tech—hardware, robotics, education, healthcare, etc.
  • Chinese tech ecosystems may prioritize integrating AI in strategic ways, even as control mechanisms adapt.

11. Global Lessons—A Worldwide “Dying Romance”

• [38:11]
  • The tightening and fragmenting of the internet “is hardly unique to China... so is the global one.”
  • Algorithmic control, the intertwining of tech elite and political power, and surveillance are pervasive.
  • Technologies are neutral—outcomes reflect institutions and community choices.
  • Memorable quote:

    “We need robust institutions, the capacity for individual thought, strong local communities and democratic decision making... We have neglected the importance of those.” – Yi-Ling Liu [38:11]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On living creatively under constraint:

  “To live in China is a dance, essentially, to engage in this dynamic push and pull between state and society.” — Yi-Ling Liu [03:55]

• On the evolution of censorship:

  “The Great Firewall has expanded into way beyond what we think of it concretely ... into a whole sophisticated ecosystem … it also includes the internalized self-censorship that a lot of citizens will have to kind of preemptively adapt to censors.” — Yi-Ling Liu [05:46]

• On the "naivety" of technological optimism:

  “Maybe we were a little naive in just assuming that more technology would equal more progress... and that these are not givens.” — Yi-Ling Liu [38:11]

Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:42] Why the 2000s/2010s were crucial for Chinese internet history
• [03:55] Meaning behind the book’s title, “Wall Dancers”
• [05:46] Discussion of censorship then vs. now and the development of the Great Firewall
• [09:50] Ma Ba Li and the parallel between BlueD’s rise and China’s internet trajectory
• [14:30] The start of internet tightening: 2008, Weibo Spring, Arab Spring influences
• [18:21] Life as a Weibo censor and the rapid growth of digital repression
• [21:10] Hip hop, Cafe Hu, and underground internet culture
• [24:35] Tech entrepreneurs’ rise and fall: Jack Ma and Ma Ba Li
• [28:39] Liu’s personal connection and reasons for writing the book
• [33:26] The future: AI regulation, strategic tech sectors, and China’s evolving approach
• [38:11] Global closing of the internet and lessons for societies worldwide

Further Resources

• Yi-Ling Liu’s personal website: yilingliu.com ([40:45])
• Follow Nicholas Gordon: Twitter @nickrigordon

This rich and insightful conversation offers a human and historical perspective on China’s digital landscape—what hopes once fueled early online communities, how crackdowns re-shaped the possibilities, and what lessons may cross borders in our present era of global internet fragmentation and technological anxiety.