Yoram Hazony, "Conservatism: A Rediscovery" (Regnery Publishing, 2022)

Summary

Podcast Summary
New Books Network
Yoram Hazony, "Conservatism: A Rediscovery" (Regnery Publishing, 2022)
Release Date: November 29, 2025
Host: Hope Jay Lehman
Guest: Yoram Hazony

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Main Theme / Purpose

The episode explores Yoram Hazony’s 2022 book, Conservatism: A Rediscovery, a reexamination of conservative political thought. Hazony argues for a return to the Anglo-American traditions at the heart of true conservatism, focusing on religion, nationalism, and social hierarchy. Throughout the conversation, Hazony challenges the post–World War II consensus of liberal democracy and neoliberalism, proposing a vibrant and substantive alternative. The discussion covers the intellectual lineage of conservatism, the emerging National Conservatism movement, cultural challenges facing conservative communities, and the importance of lived tradition over abstract ideology.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Need to “Rediscover” Conservatism

• Hazony urges a differentiation between traditional conservatism and postwar liberal democracy, which he sees as having subsumed both left and right under liberal assumptions (02:03–03:02).

  • "Conservatism needs to be rediscovered. That is, it needs to be differentiated from the post World War II concept of liberal democracy and return to its traditional three pillars of religion, nationalism and economic growth." — Yoram Hazony (02:03)

• He associates true conservatism with the English constitutional tradition and thinkers such as John Fortescue and John Selden.

• Hazony laments that after the fall of Communism, ideological debate narrowed, ushering in an era of bipartisan liberalism and paving the way for 'woke neo-Marxism' (08:18–09:03).

  • "There could be arguments between Democrats and Republicans, but pretty much everybody became a liberal." — Yoram Hazony (08:30)

2. What is National Conservatism?

• Hazony distinguishes National Conservatism from postwar fusions (like neoconservatism) and contemporary figures (e.g., DeSantis, J.D. Vance) (09:11–22:08).

• Influenced by Irving Kristol, he critiques the shift in neoconservatism toward globalist liberalism and lauds the original tradition’s skepticism toward universal rights and market freedom without the bedrock of religion and nationality (10:59–12:50).

  • "Irving Kristol was almost the exact opposite [of modern neoconservatism]... He was especially skeptical of the possibility of maintaining anything like the free enterprise system in the absence of strong nationality, national independence, and especially religion." — Yoram Hazony (11:17–12:06)

• Explains that ‘nationalism’ as used by the left has become pejorative, whereas many societies see it as pride in sovereignty and independence, not supremacy or xenophobia (14:14–16:19).

  • "A nationalist will say, look, there really is such a thing as a nation. And we owe things to our fellow nationals." — Yoram Hazony (16:15–16:23)

• Describes the birth and ongoing work of the National Conservatism movement in response to globalism post-2016 (17:24–22:08).

3. Intellectual Roots and Forgotten Figures

• Hazony challenges the idea that Edmund Burke “invented” conservatism, pointing to earlier legal and political thinkers like John Selden and John Fortescue whose ideas underpin the English and American constitutional tradition (22:34–28:31).
  • "If you open Burke's book, what you see is that he's an advocate of Anglo American traditionalism...a political theory that says that the heart of any constitution of any political order is its religious and legal traditions." — Yoram Hazony (22:57–23:44)
• Urges conservatives to recover a sense of “inherited rights” rather than seeing rights as mere rational creations (26:22–28:31).
• Hazony’s personal mission includes resurrecting overlooked conservative thinkers (30:26–31:13):
  • “I did an entire doctorate in political theory at Rutgers University...but we never studied Fortescue or Selden or Matthew Hale or Blackstone...It's a responsibility that we have is to make sure that we always go back and see who's been forgotten.” — Yoram Hazony (30:46–31:13)

4. Conservatism in Britain vs. America

• Recounts the decline of traditionalism in the British Conservative (Tory) Party, noting that despite its liberalization, tradition remains central for many Britons (33:17–35:48).
  • "England is a very, very tradition oriented country. Even, you know, if the English don't quite recognize it...at some level, they do take them seriously." — Yoram Hazony (35:28–35:59)
• Hopes for a "systematic national conservatism" to fill the void after the failures of Johnson, Truss, and others (39:13–40:43).

5. Family, Tradition, and the Effects of Modernity

• Hazony critiques the modern nuclear family as a historical aberration and argues for the extended, multigenerational family as central to conservative life (43:10–46:54).
  • “The nuclear family image...is actually very far from being a traditional family. Because...the family itself was the central economic unit...Not only was the business run by the mother and father with the help of the older people and the younger people together, but a lot of education and religion was passed down.” — Yoram Hazony (43:31–44:45)
• The pandemic prompted a forced return to extended family life and, for some, a rediscovery of abandoned values (47:59–49:09).
  • "People started having family dinners again. Suddenly discovered the...incredible bonds and ties that you can only have with your family..." — Yoram Hazony (48:22–48:32)
• Notes that while recent immigrants often retain stronger family structures, these tend to be assimilated away within a generation or two (49:56–51:11).

6. Living Conservatively—Theory and Practice

• Hazony contrasts “lifestyle conservatives” with those who genuinely live out conservative values:
  • Many self-identifying conservatives lead atomized, liberal lives with few family or communal connections, which cannot sustain conservatism in reality (53:33–57:27).
    • "They call themselves conservative, but...all they have is a stack of conservative magazines to read." — Hope Jay Lehman (paraphrasing Hazony, 53:33–53:37)
• He shares his and his wife’s journey toward an authentically traditional life, emphasizing the need for communities in which tradition is alive (61:05–66:46).
  • "You have to find older people who themselves have inherited the tradition and are in the business of passing it down. And that's the way human beings work. That's the way we're happy." — Yoram Hazony (66:11–66:37)
• Encourages readers, young and old, to rediscover honor, constraint, and God-fearing living (66:52–67:23).

7. Notable Critiques: The Enlightenment’s Blind Spots

• Points out that key Enlightenment thinkers had no children or family life, making their teachings on society incomplete (58:49–59:51).
  • "It's just preposterous that when you read them as a person who actually lives in a community where people are raising children...you're reading people [who] are completely ignorant of the subject they're writing about." — Yoram Hazony (59:38–59:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Conservatism needs to be rediscovered… a God fearing nation with nation and religion at the center of our national belief system.” — Yoram Hazony (02:03)
• “Irving Kristol was almost the exact opposite [of globalist neoconservatism]… especially skeptical of the possibility of maintaining free enterprise in the absence of strong nationality, national independence, and especially religion.” — Yoram Hazony (11:17–12:06)
• “A nationalist will say, look, there really is such a thing as a nation. And we owe things to our fellow nationals.” — Yoram Hazony (16:15–16:23)
• “Even if the things that are in the books are true, until you actually experience it, see it over and over again with your own eyes, you don't understand it. You just don’t get it.” — Yoram Hazony (65:41–66:02)
• “You have to find older people who themselves have inherited the tradition and are in the business of passing it down… That's the way we're happy.” — Yoram Hazony (66:11–66:37)
• “It's just preposterous that when you read them [enlightenment thinkers] as a person who actually lives in a community where people are raising children...you're reading people [who] are completely ignorant of the subject they're writing about.” — Yoram Hazony (59:38–59:58)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Rediscovering Conservatism: 02:03–09:11
• National Conservatism: 09:11–22:08
• The Intellectual Lineage: 22:34–31:13
• Conservatism in Britain: 33:17–40:43
• The Family & Modernity: 42:11–49:09
• The Lived Conservative Life: 53:33–66:46
• Enlightenment and the Family: 58:49–59:51
• Building New Communities and Practice: 61:05–66:46
• Closing: 67:23–69:20

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rich, historical, and practical discussion of conservatism as a living tradition. Hazony’s arguments go beyond political posturing, outlining a vision for conservatism deeply embedded in national, religious, and familial traditions. He calls for the active recovery and practice of these principles, not just their intellectual defense. Whether one is conservative or simply wants to understand the movement’s present and future, this conversation offers crucial insights and an honest appraisal of Western culture’s crossroads.

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Further Information

• Book: [Conservatism: A Rediscovery by Yoram Hazony (Regnery, 2022)]
• National Conservatism Conferences: https://nationalconservatism.org/
• Host: Hope Jay Lehman, New Books Network

For anyone interested in political theory, tradition, or the current direction of conservative thought, Hazony’s book and this conversation are essential.

Transcript

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[Yaram Hazoni]

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Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Conservatism needs to be rediscovered. That is, it needs to be differentiated from the post World War II concept of liberal democracy and return to its traditional three pillars of religion, nationalism and economic growth. And it needs to be thought of as Anglo American conservative conservatism. Rooted in the tradition of the English Constitution, going back to such thinkers as John Fortescue circa 1394 to 1479 and John Selden 1584 to 1654. We need to be a God fearing nation with nation and religion at the center of our national belief system. We must live conservative lives. These are some of the arguments made by the political theorist and public intellectual Yaram hazoni in his 2022 book A Rediscovery. It is a provocative book that even many conservatives will take issue with. For example, Hazoni puts a good deal of emphasis on the importance of hierarchy both within the family and in society at large.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Given that a good deal of the.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Rationale of right wing thinking in recent years has been predicated on the necessity for nonviolent rebellion against the establishment in the Republican Party and the left wing dominance of academia. Hazoni's arguments may not be embraced by large swaths of the right, but to get conservatives and those on the right who do not identify as conservatives as thinking about what they stand for, what they want and how to get it is one of the goals of the book. It succeeds. To those who might blanch at the embrace of religion in the public sphere, Hazoni argues that for all intents and purposes, the increasingly powerful political philosophy woke neo Marxism is itself a religion. Hazoni criticizes the right for acquiescing in the relegation of traditional religion to the private sphere. He argues robustly for religion, particularly Christianity, to serve as a countervailing force to wokeism in the face of a progressive order that leaves people in the position of being unable to distinguish between, say, a man and a woman. Hazoni advocates for such measures as ending the ban on the Bible and God in the public school classroom. This is a full throated defense of conservatism and is therefore must reading for those on all sides of the political spectrum. Hazoni addresses the need for the idea of a nation, its cohesion and its inherited traditions. For that, he says, you need conservatism. And by conservatism he means a public conservatism, a public traditionalism in those places where there's a majority that will support it. Hazoni maintains that our culture must support parents and congregations in the work of the transmission of values that ensure respect for tradition, nation and hierarchy. This book is a substantive intellectual history of conservative thought and profiles significant figures in the conservative movement, for example William F. Buckley, Frank Meyer and Russell Kirk. It is also a clarion call for those who claim to be conservatives to live genuinely conservative lives. Hazoni urges conservatives to stand up for principles like the public acknowledgment of God and such core values as the honor due to parents by their adult children, loyalty within marriage and observance of the Sabbath. In the Hasone version of conservatism, all 10 of the 10 Commandments ought to be the basis for our country's social and political life. He includes in his memoir, in his book A Memoir of His Days at Princeton university in the 1980s, where a campus culture of loose living and rampant drinking led him to seek out a life of faith and family. College students of today and their parents would do well to read this moving chronicle of a young person surrounded by decadence who escaped its ravages via a solid marriage and a return to traditional religion. Let's hear from Mr. Hazoni about his book and the path forward for conservatives and America itself. Hello, everyone. My name is Hope Jay Lehman, and I am one of the hosts of the New Books Network. I'm talking today with Yaram Hazoni, the author of the 2022 book Conservatism A Rediscovery. Thank you for joining us today.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yaram hello, Hope.

[Yaram Hazoni]

I'm glad to be here with you.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Well, thank you. I'm very honored, and I very much.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Enjoyed reading your book and learned a lot from it. I'd like to start with the title. What do you mean by the use of the word rediscovery?

[Hope Jay Lehman]

For example, what do you feel has.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Been forgotten by conservatives? And who would you point to on the public stage in our own day as being conservative? There seems to be a huge range of figures that some might point to, from people like Ben Shapiro or Tucker Carlson to politicians such as Florida Governor Ron DeSantis to Supreme Court justice like Amy Coney Barrett and Clarence Thomas. I do want to make clear that your book is not primarily concerned with the rough and tumble of retail politics, but could you orient us a bit about what conservative looks like, conservatism looks like right now?

[Interviewer/Host]

Sure.

[Yaram Hazoni]

I think traditionally there's been a in the United States and other Western countries, there's been a familiar debate between liberals and conservatives in the traditional way these terms were used. A liberal was somebody who would think that politics is basically about the rights, the individual liberties and equality of the individual conservatives, although they might and do cherish individual rights.

[Interviewer/Host]

Conservatives tend to begin with the existence.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Of of loyalty groups of a family, a tribe, a nation, and ask the question, what do I need to do in order for my nation to be able to go forward across the generations.

[Interviewer/Host]

To get stronger from one generation to another?

[Yaram Hazoni]

Now, when you think in terms of.

[Interviewer/Host]

This kind of conservative way of looking.

[Yaram Hazoni]

At politics, you have to talk about questions like is the society cohesive? Does it hold up under external and internal pressure?

[Interviewer/Host]

What do we need to do in.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Order to make people.

[Interviewer/Host]

Loyal to the.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Inherited traditions of the country and to defend its independence? And I think that this crucial debate.

[Interviewer/Host]

Between liberals and conservatives largely disappeared from.

[Yaram Hazoni]

American and European public life after the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Fall of the Berlin Wall, there's kind.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Of this dramatic collapse of Communism followed by what I see as kind of.

[Interviewer/Host]

A utopian embrace of liberalism across the political spectrum.

[Yaram Hazoni]

So there could be arguments between Democrats and Republicans, but pretty much everybody became a liberal. And I think a lot of what we're seeing today reaching its climax in 2020 with sort of the takeover of.

[Interviewer/Host]

Many of the liberal institutions by woke.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Neo Marxists is the result of the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Suppression or the disappearance of this genuine.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Conservative way of thinking.

[Interviewer/Host]

And the book proposes that we should.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Rediscover it both historically and at the level of political theory and personal life.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Well, that's very helpful. I wanted to ask about. There's a new movement called National Conservatism, and you're one of the leaders of that. I wonder if you could discuss, differentiate that between, say, the thought of William F. Buckley, the fusionism of Frank Meyer, the neoconservative conservatism of people like Irving.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Kristol, whom you admire, I know from.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

The book, and Richard John Newhouse, and.

[Yaram Hazoni]

The intercolism or post liberalism of people like Patrick Deneen and Adrienne Vermeule.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

And who were the thinkers, who were the American thinkers that most influenced you on the formation of your own conservatism?

[Yaram Hazoni]

Well, that's a lot of questions.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Yeah, but your book is so rich. I was just. I say every. I think every line in the book is underlining. Went through several pens on it.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Oh, thank you. So I would say that in terms of.

[Interviewer/Host]

Recent thinkers, meaning the last couple.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Of generations, I think. I think that Irving Kristol, probably who I knew personally, probably had the largest impact on my political thought. Irving Kristol is remembered as kind of.

[Interviewer/Host]

The key figure of the neoconservatives, but.

[Yaram Hazoni]

We have to be careful with that term because in the 1980s, when I was first reading conservatives and getting involved in this kind of political thought, the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Word meant something very, very different from.

[Yaram Hazoni]

What it means today. Today, the word neoconservative is associated with the support of, let's call it liberal internationalism, the idea that individual liberties, free markets, open borders are what we need.

[Interviewer/Host]

In order to govern the entire world.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And that the best thing would be if the entire planet would be brought.

[Interviewer/Host]

Under.

[Yaram Hazoni]

This kind of.

[Interviewer/Host]

Worldwide rule of liberals or liberalism.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And Irving Kristol was almost the exact opposite of that. If you pick up his terrific book.

[Interviewer/Host]

From 1983, Reflections of a Neoconservative, you'll.

[Yaram Hazoni]

See that he was very skeptical about the ability of human rights or the freedom of the market to be able to extend beyond the countries where it was first developed, the English speaking countries.

[Interviewer/Host]

And he was especially skeptical of the.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Possibility of maintaining anything like the free enterprise system in the absence of strong.

[Interviewer/Host]

Nationality, national independence, and especially religion, which.

[Yaram Hazoni]

He thought was the most important component of conservatism. His idea was that the freedom of the market, where we get to buy and sell whatever we want and at whatever price we can agree to by contract. His argument was that that was great for economic growth, but that it was terrible for families and nations. Basically, any kind of loyalty group, any type of group that human beings are loyal to, is not based on contract, and it's based on obligations that are.

[Interviewer/Host]

Inherited rather than being chosen.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Just to pick an obvious example, none.

[Interviewer/Host]

Of us choose who our parents are. We don't even choose who our children are.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Our children are born and they turn into, you know, to very different kinds of people. And we owe them things, just like we owe our parents and other relations. We're not. We're not able to say, no, you know, I wanted this kind of child, but you're the wrong kind of child.

[Interviewer/Host]

So I don't have any obligations to you.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And Crystal's point, which I think is a very good recapitulation of something that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Appears repeatedly through many centuries of conservative tradition, is that these inherited obligations which are not chosen, they're actually what allows.

[Yaram Hazoni]

The society to propagate over centuries. And Kristol thought that if you eliminated.

[Interviewer/Host]

These involuntary obligations, then you would quickly lose your country.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Something which is barely discussed by people.

[Interviewer/Host]

Who call themselves conservatives today.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

And the fact that the word nationalism has come to seem almost a pejorative in many people's eyes.

[Yaram Hazoni]

They equate it with white supremacy or.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Everything evil, whereas nationalism is. I lived in Asia for several years, and it's not as though the Japanese or the Chinese are not proud of their nations and have a very strong sense of nationhood. Could you talk about the term nationalism and the way it's used now by the left in particular?

[Interviewer/Host]

Sure. I use the word nationalism the way.

[Yaram Hazoni]

That, you know that I learned it growing up in my father's house. My family's Israeli. And as you say, many countries like Israel and India and lots of other.

[Interviewer/Host]

Countries use the word nationalism to mean.

[Yaram Hazoni]

A theory of the way the world should be governed, where many nations have.

[Interviewer/Host]

Their independence and are able to chart their own independent course and not be subservient to some kind of foreign empire.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

And.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And so when Kristol and others were using the term, what they meant by it, was that the kind of thing that today is associated with Brexit or the Trump movement?

[Interviewer/Host]

I don't mean necessarily Donald Trump specifically.

[Yaram Hazoni]

But.

[Interviewer/Host]

The people rallying around what's now called national conservatism are people who are.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Trying to say, look, we don't, we're not interested in trying to establish a.

[Interviewer/Host]

Universal rule of a single law around the entire globe.

[Yaram Hazoni]

We don't want to be subjected to.

[Interviewer/Host]

It and we don't want to subject others to it.

[Yaram Hazoni]

That comes down to. That's a big theory, but it comes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Down to practical politics on questions like.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Does a corporation, if it's an American corporation, does it have any kind of.

[Interviewer/Host]

Responsibility to American workers, or should the.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Owners just be free to move their.

[Interviewer/Host]

Their corporation to China regardless of its.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Impact on American national security or on the American economy or the availability of jobs? A nationalist will say, look, there really.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is such a thing as a nation.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And.

[Interviewer/Host]

We owe things to our fellow nationals.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And that might include slowing down immigration.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Or.

[Yaram Hazoni]

National steps to be, to reinforce.

[Interviewer/Host]

The national religious or constitutional traditions in the school systems.

[Yaram Hazoni]

All of these things arises issues as soon as you say the nation is something real that all of us benefit from and it needs to be protected, like the family.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

I was going to ask, in terms of national conservatives, is it a recognized movement and who or its leaders and who are its conservative critics? The critics on the right that do not like it? I know there's a lot of unfortunate internecine warfare on the right, and I think your book is a wonderful go to book to thresh those things out in a very civil way. Could you talk about the national conservatives and where does one go to find them? Who are their leaders?

[Yaram Hazoni]

Okay, well, It is a recognized movement. It's discussed quite a bit online in all sorts of media, both by people who like it and people who don't like it. And people are still wondering. The original gathering of what later became.

[Interviewer/Host]

The National Conservative Movement was.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Right after Brexit and Trump's election, President Trump's election in 2016. In December of that year, immediately after the election, there was a gathering in Glencoe, New York, that included people like Rusty Reno, the editor of First Things.

[Interviewer/Host]

Magazine, Professor Joshua Mitchell from Georgetown.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Yeah, I've interviewed him.

[Yaram Hazoni]

He's a wonderful person.

Yeah, no, he, he's, he's just, he's, he's among the finest people I know. John o', Sullivan, who was the longtime editor of National Review, now the head of the Danube Institute, and, and others, and the, this, this group gathered in order to try to, to talk about at the level of ideas, separating ourselves.

[Interviewer/Host]

To a certain extent from the question of political personalities.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Political personalities are obviously very important in elections, but when you're trying to figure out what's the overall public philosophy, what's the framework that we want to go forward with, it's helpful to back off a bit from day to day developments in politics and talk about, you know, what ideas are causing harm, what are.

[Interviewer/Host]

Ideas are potentially beneficial and what do.

[Yaram Hazoni]

We need to bring to advance in order to bring health to a given country or to various countries. So.

[Interviewer/Host]

That led to a series of.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Large conferences which have now been running.

[Interviewer/Host]

For several years called the National Conservatism Conferences. There have been three annual conferences in the United States. There have been three annual conferences in Europe.

[Yaram Hazoni]

This coming year, it looks like there's going to be Natcon 4 in America and a Natcon UK conference. At least those two people can find out about it online. There's a website called nationalconservatism.org and when you go to that website, you'll see, you'll see articles and books by various authors.

[Interviewer/Host]

In addition to the founding members that.

[Yaram Hazoni]

I named, probably the most important spokesman.

[Interviewer/Host]

For National Conservatism in recent years has.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Been Krista Muth, who was the longtime.

[Interviewer/Host]

Head of the American Enterprise Institute.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And our many other colleagues. What we're involved in is trying to.

[Interviewer/Host]

Restore the idea of the nation to.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Be central in our politics. Now that doesn't mean we all agree about everything, but there's definitely a school.

[Interviewer/Host]

Of national Conservatism which in the United.

[Yaram Hazoni]

States is associated in addition to President Trump with people like Governor DeSantis and J.D.

[Interviewer/Host]

Vance, who's going to be a senator.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Now, Josh Hawley has been to all of our American conferences. Marco Rubio is also, in a lot of ways, I think, an important national conservative figure and many others. When you look at the website, the last conference had in Miami had about 110 speakers. These are people, most of them are not politicians, most of them are academics, journalists, think tank people who are trying.

[Interviewer/Host]

To apply the principles that we're talking.

[Yaram Hazoni]

About to all particular issues.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Well, I was going to say you mentioned the importance of ideas. And one of the strengths of your book is that in some ways I don't think it's a rediscovery. To me it was, I think for other readers it was really an introduction to conservatism. For example, you mentioned a figure that I had never heard of and you call him the greatest conservative, John Seldon. And I wonder, could you talk about him and the importance of his period and the formative ideas for what. What you're working on in our time.

[Interviewer/Host]

Sure, there's.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Look, there's kind of like this slogan.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's like an intellectual slogan that you hear all the time, even among very educated people. They say that Edmund Burke was the first conservative or the founder of conservatism.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And.

[Interviewer/Host]

It'S a strange thing to think.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Because if you open. Burke obviously was this great Anglo Irish statesman during the time of the French Revolution who became famous in history as the leading opponent of French Revolutionary ideas and probably the person most responsible for preventing the French Revolution from taking hold in Britain. But when you open Burke's book, what you see is that he's an advocate of Anglo American traditionalism, or we call it conservatism today, but basically it's a political theory that says that the heart.

[Interviewer/Host]

Of any constitution of any political order.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Is its religious and legal traditions. When you ask, well, how can he found the school at that time, if he's defending the traditions?

[Interviewer/Host]

You immediately see this absurd contradiction that actually Burke is not the founder of.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Anything, and he doesn't think he's the founder of anything.

[Interviewer/Host]

Doing is. He's defending this tradition that he thinks is 4, 5, 6, 700 years old.

[Yaram Hazoni]

So.

[Interviewer/Host]

One of the characters that I.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Want to read that I wanted to reintroduce, together with my historian friend, Dr.

[Interviewer/Host]

Ofira Ivry, who is the expert on Seldon, was this figure, John Seldon, who was the.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Who is named explicitly by Burke as.

[Interviewer/Host]

One of his crucial forebears.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Selden lived at the time of the.

[Interviewer/Host]

First half of the 1600s.

[Yaram Hazoni]

After Queen Elizabeth died and.

[Interviewer/Host]

James of Scotland became James I of England. And James was a political theorist who.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Wrote books on political theory.

[Interviewer/Host]

And his political theory was that the king makes all the decisions, and any.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Kind of law comes from the king by right. And Seldon, who was the greatest common.

[Interviewer/Host]

Lawyer at the time, meaning he was.

[Yaram Hazoni]

The greatest jurist, in addition to being.

[Interviewer/Host]

The most important political theorist of his generation, he was a member of Parliament.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And he. And together with Koch and Elliot and.

[Interviewer/Host]

Other famous people of his generation, he led the resistance against the king on the grounds that the English have an inherited constitution. He was the principal author of what was called the Petition of Right.

[Yaram Hazoni]

The Petition of Right demanded that the king recognize traditional inherited rights of Englishmen that had been, you know, according to.

[Interviewer/Host]

Selden and others, that had been discovered.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Through trial and error over centuries, a.

[Interviewer/Host]

Tradition with its roots in the Bible. But then that was applied to England over centuries and they succeeded in getting.

[Yaram Hazoni]

James the first to agree that these were in fact, traditional rights.

[Interviewer/Host]

Now, what's interesting about.

[Yaram Hazoni]

About this assertion of rights against the Crown is that if we look a.

[Interviewer/Host]

Little bit forward, we'll see that the rights that Seldon is talking about, they're the same rights that then become the basis for the American Bill of Rights.

[Yaram Hazoni]

A century and a half later. Often people claim that the Americans founded.

[Interviewer/Host]

That their Bill of Rights is based on reason. And they don't make like to mention.

[Yaram Hazoni]

That the American Bill of Rights is actually a codification of English rights that had already been codified 150 years earlier.

[Interviewer/Host]

That's going forward. If we go back just a little bit in history to the late 1400s.

[Yaram Hazoni]

We can find a book called In.

[Interviewer/Host]

Praise of the Laws of England by John Fortescue, who is the inspiration for Selden and to. And you open this book, you can.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Buy a Cambridge, a new Cambridge.

[Interviewer/Host]

There's a new Cambridge edition that's really easy to read. It's a short book and the spelling's.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Cleaned up, so you can really easily understand it.

[Interviewer/Host]

And this fellow Fortescue was also the.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Chief justice of England.

[Interviewer/Host]

Now we're in the late 1400s, which.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Is like, it's crazy. You know, we're talking about 600 years ago.

[Interviewer/Host]

You open the book and it's like.

[Yaram Hazoni]

You'Re reading about the American Constitution today. There's the separation of powers, the bicameral.

[Interviewer/Host]

Legislature, the responsibility of parliament, of the legislature for laws and taxation, the executive veto, the jury trial.

[Yaram Hazoni]

I mean, it just goes on and on.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's like you're reading something 600 years old. But it's the same ideas that today.

[Yaram Hazoni]

People say, oh, no, they were invented.

[Interviewer/Host]

At the time of the American Revolution.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Well, they weren't invented at the time.

[Interviewer/Host]

Of the American Revolution.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And to be a conservative, I think.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is to understand that the freedoms that we cherish are based on.

[Yaram Hazoni]

A dense and complicated tradition.

[Interviewer/Host]

And if you don't know the tradition.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Then you don't know how to uphold it and you quickly lose it.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Yes, I think one of the great strengths of your book is you make the point that the American Constitution is a profoundly conservative document. It harkens back to a restoration of rights that. That George III was deprived. Traditional rights that were being deprived. It wasn't necessarily a progressive document. It was saying, these are long established rights that you're. That you are overturning King George. I think that was a really helpful background to the book. Oh, I'm sorry.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Go ahead.

No, no, I was Just agreeing with you.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Oh, yeah. Well, apropos of John Staldon, I wanted to squeeze in and mention that on your Twitter feed, which I recommend highly because it's very funny and it's both substantive and amusing back and forth with some of your critics online. But there's a. I think recently there was a charming picture of you on your recent trip to Britain with understanding, under the statue of John Saldon, which. In the. In the House of Parliament, I believe. Is that correct? Or.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes.

[Yaram Hazoni]

I mean, I. I was surprised to discover Sullivan's towering statue there. And my friend who was there in London with me took the photograph, had me maneuvered me. I didn't realize that this is what was happening.

[Interviewer/Host]

To stand under Seldon's outstretched arm.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And then one of my Israeli colleagues said, seldon is blessing Khazoni for his work bringing him back. It was a nice moment. No, And I think if we're talking.

[Interviewer/Host]

About rediscovery, I think it's important to.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Emphasize that the great figures of the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Past, we only know who they are.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Because in every generation, there are scholars and others who. Who do the work of trying to rediscover them. I mean, this is something that people are not so aware of that. I did an entire doctorate in political theory at Rutgers University. It was a very good doctorate, but I came out knowing a lot about.

[Interviewer/Host]

Liberalism and a lot about Marxism. But we never studied Fortescue or. Or Seldon or Matthew Hale or Blackstone or, like Clarendon, any of these great conservative figures. They had no place in the way that history was taught for us.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And it's a responsibility that we have is to make sure that we always go back and see who's been forgotten. Because the way we're taught, history is.

[Interviewer/Host]

Not always the best way.

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[Hope Jay Lehman]

Well, I definitely recommend your book in.

[Yaram Hazoni]

That respect because to me many of.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

The figures and I like to think of myself as a fairly well read person but I realized I am not because these names are totally unfamiliar to me. As I said, John Selden, but Matthew Hale. I had, I maybe have seen his name but but not realized the importance.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Of his, of his, of his life and his thought.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Well, speaking of getting back to your recent trip to Britain, where that picture was, where that photograph was taken, what was the reception of your book and what is the state of conservatism in Britain at this point? I know this, this obviously this summer has just been incredibly turbulent for the Conservative Party. Is there, is there resolve among, what is the position of for example, social conservatives in the, in the British, the Tory party at this point? I mean that it seems as though Liz Truss was just all about taxes and SUNAC is all about fiscal conservatism. But is there a place for social conservatives there?

[Yaram Hazoni]

Well, that, that is among the big questions. I mean the Tory party, I was.

[Interviewer/Host]

Very fortunate to be, to be asked.

[Yaram Hazoni]

To speak in Parliament and.

[Coca Cola Advertiser]

Oh really?

[Hope Jay Lehman]

That's exciting.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Well, you know, I wasn't speaking, you know, from, you know, from the, from.

[Interviewer/Host]

The podium obviously in the Parliament chamber.

[Yaram Hazoni]

But they had a side room and it was nice. I was told to expect at most three or MPs for the meeting and 15 showed up and it was lovely and in some ways very encouraging. And in addition to speaking to the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Parliamentarians.

[Yaram Hazoni]

My colleague and I had a significant tour of think tanks and interviews. And I mean the schedule was packed and exhausting and many of the meals turned into, you know, four hour discussions going deep into theoretical questions and into current politics. And I don't, I don't claim to be an expert by any stretch in current British politics, but my understanding is that the Tory Party, the Conservative Party.

[Interviewer/Host]

Has in a lot of ways comparable to the American Republican Party was drawn.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Into this idea of free market liberalism, the European Union as an instrument for.

[Interviewer/Host]

Erasing borders and eliminating national sovereignty.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Margaret Thatcher would never have of stood for this kind of thing, but she was shooed aside in 1990 and after she was ushered off the stage, the Tories went into this kind of hyper liberal period. And it's not that.

[Interviewer/Host]

The traditionalists ever really completely disappeared. Look, England is a very, very tradition oriented country.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Even, you know, if the English don't.

[Interviewer/Host]

Quite recognize It, I mean, they still, they, they still have royalty, they still have a House of Lords, they still have the Common Law, they still have an established church.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Now you can, you can say that, you know, these institutions are decaying and that people don't take them seriously, but the, but at some level, they do take them seriously.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so it's, it's, it's strange to.

[Yaram Hazoni]

You know, get to know the Tory.

[Interviewer/Host]

Party and discover that in addition to serious Conservatives there, there, there are many Liberals and, and there's some, some who.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Are, you know, deep into woke ideas.

[Interviewer/Host]

Even in the Tory party.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

And so certainly Boris Johnson just seemed to be. I don't know why anyone would consider him a Conservative at all. He was just this strangely unprincipled clown that by sheer bravado led that party. I thought, what are they doing with him? It's, it's.

[Interviewer/Host]

In 2019, he put together a platform that was, in a lot of ways, a lot of ways a national Conservative platform.

[Yaram Hazoni]

By the way, the English, they call.

[Interviewer/Host]

It one nation conservatism, which is the term that Benjamin Disraeli, the famous Conservative Prime Minister from the end of the 19th century, he coined this phrase one nation conservatism, which. And his point of view was that the new working classes could be a.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Part of a Conservative Party, that a.

[Interviewer/Host]

Conservative party had to take responsibility not just for the wealthy and the elites and the aristocracy, but also for the working classes.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And he proposed this ideal of a.

[Interviewer/Host]

Tory party which would be an alliance between, between the traditional aristocracy, on the.

[Yaram Hazoni]

One hand, and the new working classes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Johnson.

[Yaram Hazoni]

I think this happens in politics sometimes, that he and his people succeeded in putting together a platform that spoke.

[Interviewer/Host]

That idea and succeeded in bringing a.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Tremendous number of working class voters to the Tory party, especially in new geographical.

Areas, too, where they had been raped in the past.

Right, right, right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Throughout the former labor strongholds. It was a resounding, you know, almost unprecedented Tory victory.

[Yaram Hazoni]

But I think that, that Johnson and his people were just, were not prepared for that victory. They didn't know how.

[Interviewer/Host]

I don't think that Johnson was purposely trying to trick people, but he wasn't, was not prepared to govern on the basis of the platform that he had sold to the public.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And so, you know, all of that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Has led to great confusion.

[Yaram Hazoni]

You mentioned, you know, Liz Truss was Prime Minister for five weeks this summer. And her fall, after such a brief period, historically brief period, I think was triggered just an astounding drop of the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Conservatives in the polls. They lost something like 30 points in three months and have not recovered.

[Yaram Hazoni]

That series of events I think has.

[Interviewer/Host]

Created what seems clearly to me to.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Be an opening for a solid, serious.

[Interviewer/Host]

Systematic national conservatism, which is the Tories.

[Yaram Hazoni]

May turn to it out of recognition that they haven't kept their promises and they're going to be defeated badly for it. But maybe they can't do it. And it may turn out that some.

[Interviewer/Host]

Other party on the Conservative right will.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Take up that cause. That's possible.

[Interviewer/Host]

Under a parliamentary system, that.

[Yaram Hazoni]

A new party will step forward.

[Interviewer/Host]

What's clear, I think is that that.

[Yaram Hazoni]

There are hundreds of people, intellectuals and political activists deeply involved in right of.

[Interviewer/Host]

Center politics in the UK who are.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Now talking about the importance of national conservatism as a set of ideas for the uk. We just announced the founding of an Edmund Burke foundation branch that's multiple my.

[Interviewer/Host]

Organization that runs the National Conservatism Conferences and Professor James Orr from Cambridge is going to.

[Yaram Hazoni]

He is the newly appointed national head of NATCON UK and we're looking forward to a big convention in the spring.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Well, speaking of Edmund Burke, I wanted to just say that one of the most valuable passages in your book or sections of your book that I found very useful was a comparison side by side comparison of the American founding father Gouverneur Morris with Edmund Burke and the differences and the similarities between them and that passage alone was worth the price of the book. I just thought that was wonderful and very, very illuminating. Another moving from actually national politics to the social world that you recommend. And I found it very moving in your book that you talk about the effects of pandemic, of the pandemic on American families and the rediscovery of simple conservative values such as because people were locked down thanks to over government overreach to a certain extent, but people were eating together and that they were looking after the elderly members are trying to. Because one of the things speaking of the elderly people is you make the point in the book. I was surprised by this that you were very critical of the nuclear family, saying that that's relegated the elders in our communities to assisted living or retirement communities and there's very little interaction. Could you talk about what you think that the pandemic has done for conservatives, if anything? Or has it just made people fearful and dependent on the state and not being self reliant.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Well, look, I know that an awful.

[Interviewer/Host]

Lot of people.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Suffered in many different ways from the pandemic and the lockdowns and confused government government policies. This is true not just in America but in many countries. So I don't want to make it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Some kind of.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Idil or utopia or something. But on the other hand, America, like other Western countries, has, I think, been suffering. People talk about the effects of the breakdown of the family, but I think.

[Interviewer/Host]

I think that it's often very unclear.

[Yaram Hazoni]

What the traditional family was actually like. I mean, there's this kind of image of the 1950s nuclear family where there's.

[Interviewer/Host]

A father who goes to work, there's.

[Yaram Hazoni]

A mother who stays at home, and.

[Interviewer/Host]

They have two or three children in a detached suburban home and the children.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Go to school and the mother's left at home in the house. And, you know, this nuclear family image.

[Interviewer/Host]

It'S often conservatives talk about as though.

[Yaram Hazoni]

There'S something, you know, as though it's a traditional family. And it's actually very far from being a traditional family. Because, you know, up until, you know.

[Interviewer/Host]

Up until the Industrial revolution, up until.

[Yaram Hazoni]

150 years ago, 120 years ago, the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Average family was a business. The family itself was the central economic unit.

[Yaram Hazoni]

It wasn't that the father went out.

[Interviewer/Host]

To work and the children went out to school. Maybe they went to school a little.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Bit, but the children, as soon as they got old enough, they took part in a multi generational family.

[Interviewer/Host]

It was not just the parents, but.

[Yaram Hazoni]

There were often grandparents and sometimes even great grandparents. There were often brothers and sisters of their parents within the community, so that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Cousins were an integral part of it.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And a lot of the. Not only was the business run by the mother and father with the help.

[Interviewer/Host]

Of the older people and the younger.

[Yaram Hazoni]

People together, but a lot of education.

[Interviewer/Host]

And religion was passed down.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And when it wasn't passed down in.

[Interviewer/Host]

The family, the family was part of.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Of a broader congregation, like a community.

[Interviewer/Host]

Of families who were kind of an extended family as well.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And when you get to 1962 and Betty Friedan, like the famous feminist writer, when she writes about the nuclear family being a tomb, like a crypt for women, women being buried alive there, it's.

[Interviewer/Host]

A shocking, horrible image. But there is some truth to what she was saying.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Because women, I don't think ever in history was there this kind of sharp.

[Interviewer/Host]

Division of labor where the woman was.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Left alone at home for most of.

[Interviewer/Host]

The hours of the day and was.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Supposed to be making a home without the bonds of family and community, without.

[Interviewer/Host]

The husband in the house, without the children in the house.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And, and the fact that so many.

[Interviewer/Host]

Women.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Just grew desperate and decided they would also go out and get jobs.

[Interviewer/Host]

And nobody seems to notice that.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Turning.

[Interviewer/Host]

Of the nuclear home into a Shell. It's an empty shell, basically, where the.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Mother, the father, and the children leave.

[Interviewer/Host]

It for most of the waking hours of the day.

[Yaram Hazoni]

The grandparents aren't there at all because they've all been, you know, sent to.

[Interviewer/Host]

A nursing home or something.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And the, the.

[Interviewer/Host]

That empty shell is just. It's not a home.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Now all you need to do is like, you know, look at the, you know, for, for people who are willing.

[Interviewer/Host]

To do a little experiment in, in.

[Yaram Hazoni]

In Bible literacy. The last chapter of, of the Book.

[Interviewer/Host]

Of Proverbs.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Is a poem to the woman of the house that we traditional Jews, we sing it every Friday night. And when you read that chapter, you'll see that not only do you see.

[Interviewer/Host]

That the home is a business, but the woman of the house is in charge of that business. She's doing negotiations with merchants and selling items and producing things. She's like running a factory. And the idea that we conservatives should.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Say, no, a woman's place is an empty home.

[Interviewer/Host]

She shouldn't be involved in the business.

[Yaram Hazoni]

I think it's just completely. It's completely twisted and unfair.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so, I'm sorry, I've been going.

[Yaram Hazoni]

On for a while, but something I'm passionate about that you asked about. COVID So, Covid, by this draconian step of causing people to be in their homes all the time, I know many.

[Interviewer/Host]

Young people who traveled hundreds or even thousands of miles to rejoin their families because their colleges were closed.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And there were families where the same thing happened with grandparents who moved in.

[Interviewer/Host]

People rearrange their lives so that.

[Yaram Hazoni]

That, that in. In, you know, in the limited space.

[Interviewer/Host]

And under these, These terrible external pressures.

[Yaram Hazoni]

People started having family dinners again. Suddenly discovered the, you know, the, the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Incredible bonds and ties that you can.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Only have with your family that you don't, you know, you don't have with your college friends. You only think you do and.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Or your work, Your work situation. Your work. You were your family. No, you're not, right?

[Yaram Hazoni]

No, no, no. I'm sorry.

[Interviewer/Host]

Your work. Your work might be a great place, but when your work gets tired of.

[Yaram Hazoni]

You, they fire you. And your family doesn't fire you. A family, the family is the people.

[Interviewer/Host]

Who you have these unchosen obligations to.

[Yaram Hazoni]

I think a lot of people caught.

[Interviewer/Host]

A glimpse during the COVID years of some of what has been lost and.

[Yaram Hazoni]

What might be gained.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Well, at this point, I just want to remind listeners that we were talking today with Yaram Hazoni about his book Conservatism A Rediscovery. And as I, as I was Reading your section about families and the argument for extended families and families were multi generational households, I was thinking that perhaps the future of conservatism lies with people who are recent immigrants, for example, from South Asia and Southeast Asia and Hispanics, because they often have multi generational families and very traditional views of. I don't want to stereotype them, but is there a future for that or do they become assimilated into the secular liberalism within one or two generations?

[Yaram Hazoni]

Well, I think both of those things are true. I think that foreign immigrants are often, often much more conservative than Americans or Brits or Europeans, meaning than the society that they're moving into. They're coming primarily because they want better employment, but they hope to be able to maintain very often their traditional family structures. In my experience, for most communities it doesn't last and it gets broken down. The children and certainly the grandchildren are resentful. Why can't I lead a liberal life.

[Interviewer/Host]

Just like my friends, where I'm free from all of these inherited obligations?

[Yaram Hazoni]

But on the other hand, if anything at all is going to change, then it is in a more conservative direction. It's certainly going to involve some kind of broad coalition of people who still value a conservative life with others who are more liberal.

[Interviewer/Host]

But at least they look and see the cultural revolution that the WOKE neo Marxism is bringing.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And I think a lot of liberals are becoming aware that there's a choice.

[Interviewer/Host]

That has to be made here. You can't pretend it's not there.

[Yaram Hazoni]

If you don't want woke neo Marxism.

[Interviewer/Host]

To be the dominant public religion or.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Public philosophy of the United States or.

[Interviewer/Host]

At least the part of the country.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Where you live, then there's going to have to be a political coalition in support of.

[Interviewer/Host]

Traditional values, which are basically.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Biblical values in America.

[Interviewer/Host]

They're fundamentally Christian values and Christian traditions. I'm Jewish, I'm an Orthodox Jew, and.

[Yaram Hazoni]

I think that Orthodox Jews, like a lot of other non Christians who are concerned about what's coming, I think a lot of us would rather build some.

[Interviewer/Host]

Kind of coalition with our Christian neighbors.

[Yaram Hazoni]

In order to try to save some.

[Interviewer/Host]

Of the traditions and revive them.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Well, there's a very effective and very funny but also very telling and sobering passage in your book. It's all three funny, thought provoking and a righteous scolding of young or not even young, just conservative men. And you make the point that many conservative so called conservative men, although they might be libertarian, but you say they're basically living a liberal lifestyle. They call themselves conservative, but you make the point that Many of them have this rather sad, lonely life where they have liberal friends or liberal values and they're single, they don't have families and all they have is a stack of conservative magazines to read. And I thought that was a funny image. And I wonder if you could talk about, about the fact that rebuilding the marriage culture. For example, I was in, in the very moving section of your book about your time at Princeton, the fact that you married very young and that you found your wife who, who also wanted that life. And that must be very hard for young people these days. And also another aspect of your book that was somewhat related to this is that you make the point that you had to seek out solidity, social solidity and foundational life because at Princeton at that time there was a very low shift, decadent, highly promiscuous lifestyle that you were surrounded by and you and your future wife just rebelled against that and you found, found a home. And I wonder, would you send your, your own children to Princeton today? Or is it, or, or what, what would you recommend to a young person trying to find happiness you found.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Look, I'll, I'll tell you a secret that I, my, my oldest daughter went to Princeton and we have, we have nine children.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so far it seems like none of the others are going to go through what she went through. I mean, none of them want to.

[Yaram Hazoni]

But my oldest daughter, because.

[Interviewer/Host]

She went to Princeton.

[Yaram Hazoni]

So I got to see the scene.

[Interviewer/Host]

A generation later through her eyes.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And all sorts of things have changed. But the fundamental thing that I'm, that I was describing there has not changed. And that is that the whole concept of an 18 year old going away to college to basically.

[Interviewer/Host]

Leaving the parents.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Leaving the family and going to a place where all the other people are also between 18 and 20, 21 or 22, they've also all left their parents, they've left, you know, their hometowns and.

[Interviewer/Host]

Whatever routes they've had. And they're in a place where, you.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Know, we think about the university as, you know, as an educational institution.

[Interviewer/Host]

In some ways it is, but in a lot of ways it's not because.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Mostly you don't have any contact with professors. I mean, with adults. You only, you know, you, you go.

[Interviewer/Host]

See the professors, you hear them in.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Classes, but that's a very small part of the, of the schedule.

[Interviewer/Host]

The overwhelming majority of the week of.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Of university students is spent with other university students. And they, they don't, you know, nobody.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is, you know, regardless of whether they're liberal or conservative or Marxist in their.

[Yaram Hazoni]

You know, in, in their opinions, I.

[Interviewer/Host]

Think none of them realize that what's.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Happened is that they've all been cut.

[Interviewer/Host]

Off from their roots.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Even if they had good roots in.

[Interviewer/Host]

Their family life, they're all cut off. Hundreds or thousands of young people living in dorms only with other young people. You've basically decided for them that there are going to be no role models. They're not going to be around families. They're not going to, going to see.

[Yaram Hazoni]

How husbands and wives, you know, at.

[Interviewer/Host]

This, this crucial stage where they're, they're really first beginning to be capable of.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Noticing, you know, really what things are happening around them. And look, if, if, if you don't.

[Interviewer/Host]

Grow up around older couples who have succeeded in keeping their marriage together for 40, 50, 60 years, if, if you don't live with them, your chances of.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Being able to reproduce it without ever.

[Interviewer/Host]

Having seen it are extremely small. And the same thing is with raising children. People don't know how to raise children. They're scared of raising children. They're scared of having children. And so your question about this liberal life, which. It's the life of people, even if they vote for conservative parties, it doesn't make any difference most of the time.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Because they've been deprived of an environment.

[Interviewer/Host]

Where they could see how marriages work, how congregations work, how extended families work. They don't almost ever get to see the care for the elderly, and they don't know what contribution grandparents make to a family.

[Yaram Hazoni]

They go to classes where they read.

[Interviewer/Host]

Locke or Rousseau and Locke and Rousseau.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And these Enlightenment rationalist thinkers talk about family as the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Though it ends at the age of 18 or 20.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And, and, and, and most people think that now that, that, you know, you, you just go away and, and you, you know, you decide to do whatever you want to do.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, that, that, that sounds great, but.

[Yaram Hazoni]

The reality is that without any, any.

[Interviewer/Host]

Inheritance, without any guardrails, without any models of role models, most people end up.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Or a lot of people end up.

[Interviewer/Host]

Terribly unhappy that they don't know what.

[Yaram Hazoni]

They want to do. And that makes them pray to. Well, everybody knows this. To killing the time with video games.

[Interviewer/Host]

Or television or drugs or porn or alcohol. It's all trying to suppress the pain.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Of not having good models for how an inherited tradition can give you good directions.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

You have a very fascinating section in your book about. You point out with the Enlightenment thinkers and you rattle them off. The people those thinkers had never had children. Locke never had children. Neither did Descartes, Hobbes, Spinoza or Kant. And then Rousseau had Children, but he gave them all away for, because they were nuisance to him. So he got rid of them. So that, that was very, very telling.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Right.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

I'm sorry.

[Yaram Hazoni]

No, I just, I need to, to, to correct this, the date, because it's a mistake that I've made.

[Interviewer/Host]

Descartes actually had a daughter outside of marriage.

[Yaram Hazoni]

So like, like he, he had a, he, he had a daughter.

[Interviewer/Host]

She died at the age of five.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And, and, and you know, that's like, that's like Rousseau. It's like, you know, every one of these, the people are absolutely at the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Center of Enlightenment, rationalist, political and social.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Thought, you know, who wrote all these books about how to raise children. And I mean, it's, it's just, it's.

[Interviewer/Host]

Preposterous that when, when, when you read.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Them as a person, you know, who, who actually.

[Interviewer/Host]

Lives in a community where people are raising children.

[Yaram Hazoni]

I mean, you just feel like you're reading.

[Interviewer/Host]

People are completely ignorant of the subject they're writing about.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

I was going to say too, when you talk in the book about the need to create those communities and they, and you talk about. And people have to create those communities, have to seek out other conservatives and you, and, and also you make the point that it's never too late, that you can be an older person and still create that community. I wonder, could you comment on the national sorting that's happening geographically? Because I know that there are many young by word of mouth. I've just heard that there are many young family age, young parents that are leaving Oregon, which is this increasingly death culture, sad atheistic state, and moving lock, stock and barrel with their young children to Florida to create those communities. Are you finding you yourself have done that to a certain extent with your move to. I mean, you live a very transatlantic or transnational life with your life in Israel versus America. Have you, could you talk about your own life? And did your wife have trouble adjusting to the Israeli life because she's not Jewish herself originally?

[Yaram Hazoni]

First of all, if my wife Julie, if she had not been a driving force in all of this, then none of it would have happened. I'm writing a book with my name on it. But the truth is that all of these ideas that we're talking about are about family and child raising and honoring.

[Interviewer/Host]

Parents.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And being part of a congregation. All of these are ideas that she and I together were pretty much ignorant about almost all of this when we met our freshman year in college. And we spent decades finding those role.

[Interviewer/Host]

Models, trying out different communities in constant.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Conversation between the two of Us and.

[Interviewer/Host]

Some of our other friends, but especially.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Between the two of us, we would go for a Sabbath meal at, at a, at, at a, at a new family and then we'd go home and.

[Interviewer/Host]

We'D, we'd sit and process everything that we saw, you know, all, all evening long.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Did you see that? You know, that the father did this.

[Interviewer/Host]

That the mother did that? Did you see that the grand grandparents did this?

[Yaram Hazoni]

And the children.

[Interviewer/Host]

What happened when the children missed. I mean, this went on for many years.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And this, the, the. The book is, is, you know, I, I wrote it, but the ideas are Julie's and my ideas.

[Interviewer/Host]

And there are plenty of sections of the book where even after I wrote it, she said, no, no, no, you.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Can'T say this because we actually think something else.

[Interviewer/Host]

And then she would explain to me.

[Yaram Hazoni]

What we think and then we talk it through and no, this happened repeatedly. And so.

[Interviewer/Host]

To make a long story.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Short, the story was that she had.

[Interviewer/Host]

A glimpse of traditional Christian family life.

[Yaram Hazoni]

From her grandparents home because there were.

[Interviewer/Host]

Parts of her childhood where she lived with her grandparents.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And I had a glimpse of it, of Orthodox Jewish life from my aunt and uncle.

[Interviewer/Host]

Who had six children and were living in an Orthodox community in Israel.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And when we decided to, to move to Israel, we now live in, in Jerusalem, we live in, you know, in a neighborhood. It's not, it's not Orthodox.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's not all Orthodox.

[Yaram Hazoni]

But you know, it. This.

[Interviewer/Host]

There's about 15, 15 little synagogues in our neighborhood.

[Yaram Hazoni]

So it's, it's a. That there, there are many flavors of.

[Interviewer/Host]

Religious Jews and less religious Jews, but.

[Yaram Hazoni]

It'S a very, very traditional community.

[Interviewer/Host]

And we are still learning.

[Yaram Hazoni]

I mean, we have a new Orthodox congregation that we joined two years ago right after Covid. And there are many, many things about this new congregation and the way that.

[Interviewer/Host]

It folds the children of the community.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Into like a kind of a learning.

[Interviewer/Host]

Experience all week long. We're still learning and we're going to.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Learn, God willing, until the very end. And I think that to your question.

[Interviewer/Host]

About people moving to Florida, look, I think it's really, really healthy for people.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Who realize that they're living in decay and collapse to move to a place that can be healthier. But, but I think it would be.

[Interviewer/Host]

A mistake to think that it's sufficient.

[Yaram Hazoni]

To move to a healthier state because.

[Interviewer/Host]

If you yourself personally do not have.

[Yaram Hazoni]

In the local congregation or community, if you don't have older models, like models of examples of married people who've been.

[Interviewer/Host]

Able to stay married, then you're not.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Going to know how to do it. And you, you can read a hundred books about, you know, how to make.

[Interviewer/Host]

Your relationship work or how to raise children. These things are, look, they're better than nothing, but they're, they're close to worthless because people learn things from people, they learn things from older people. They don't learn things from books.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And you know, the. Even if the things that are in.

[Interviewer/Host]

The books are true, until you actually experience it, see it over and over.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Again with your own eyes, you don't, you don't understand it, you just don't get it. And you know, it's like reading a book about a tiger or an elephant and then seeing a real one, like.

[Interviewer/Host]

It doesn't matter what it says in.

[Yaram Hazoni]

The book, you don't get it. And so what I'm hoping, you know.

[Interviewer/Host]

With this book is in part to touch and probably more important than anything.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Else is to talk about the conservative.

[Interviewer/Host]

Life, which is a life in which you recognize that your own independent thinking.

[Yaram Hazoni]

About things is not good enough. It can't be good enough. You have to find older people who themselves have inherited the tradition and are.

[Interviewer/Host]

In the business of passing it down.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And that's the way human beings work.

[Interviewer/Host]

That's the way we're happy is when we're around, when young people around older people that they can learn from, and when older people around younger people who they can pass their knowledge to, if.

[Yaram Hazoni]

You'Re not in that life of conservation.

[Interviewer/Host]

And transmission, it's very hard to be happy.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

I was going to say that in your book. We're getting towards the end and there's so much I wanted to ask you, but I promised I wouldn't keep you too long. But I wanted to say that in the book you talk about the transmission of values and you use terms that young people never even hear anymore, such as God fearing and the words honor and constraint. And I think those. I just recommend that young people who are, who don't understand conservatism should read the book because at least they'll understand what, who they're. Who. What it is and what they can.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Take from it, even if they're liberals.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Well, I have take Oyam. I've taken up a lot of your time. I'd like to ask you now the traditional final question on the New Books Network, and that is, what are you working on now?

[Yaram Hazoni]

Oh, gosh, I am working.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

You're a busy man. I know it's hard to. It was hard to arrange an interview with you, so, so.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Oh, but, but you're you, you, you mean what book am I working on?

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Or, or anything, Any project at all. Whatever, whatever you're, you have in your busy intellectual and organizational life.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Well, I, I, I describe the fact that like we're right now in the, you know, in the process of setting up natcon UK and, and there's, there's a, a big upsurge of interest also in, in Italy where, where Giorgio Meloni, who was, who was a speaker at.

[Interviewer/Host]

Our conferences before the whole world knew.

[Yaram Hazoni]

About her, has just become Prime Minister. So I'm definitely working on those things. But I have a book manuscript that I've been working on. I'm embarrassed to say this, but it's literally true. I've been working on it for 20 years. It's a book on human nature and.

[Interviewer/Host]

How the mind works.

[Yaram Hazoni]

And I, I don't know if people are going to be interested in what.

[Interviewer/Host]

I have to say on the subject.

[Yaram Hazoni]

But it is the basis for serious conversations about politics or family or religion or just about anything is to understand what human beings are like and how we think.

[Interviewer/Host]

So I'm working on that. I'm hoping someone will be interested in publishing it.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Well, I, I hope I would. Well, we'll be very interested in talking about a new books network because we're all about books. So I very much enjoyed talking to you today and I just want to thank the author we've been talking to today, Yaram Hazoni, author of the book Conservatism A Rediscovery. And thank you Yaram and thank you listeners. Bye bye.

[Yaram Hazoni]

Bye bye.

[Hope Jay Lehman]

Foreign.

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[Hope Jay Lehman]

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