Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Yossi Yovel, "The Genius Bat: The Secret Life of the Only Flying Mammal"
Air Date: December 16, 2025
Host: Gregory McNeff
Guest: Yossi Yovel, Professor of Zoology, Tel Aviv University

This episode centers on Yossi Yovel’s new book, The Genius Bat, which explores the cognitive, social, and evolutionary lives of bats and the scientists who study them. The conversation highlights not just bat biology, but the personalities, debates, and evolving nature of research itself—making the book both a window into animal intelligence and a behind-the-scenes look at scientific discovery.

Main Themes and Purpose

• Demystifying bats as model organisms for understanding animal intelligence.
• Showing how the scientific process is shaped by personalities, debates, and collaboration.
• Presenting cutting-edge discoveries in bat cognition, communication, and evolution.
• Discussing conservation and humanity’s role as both a threat and a potential savior.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Write This Book? (03:20)

• Personal Motivation: Yovel wrote the book initially for himself, aiming to blend his love for writing with science communication, unsure whether it would be published.
• Target Audience: Not just animal lovers; meant for anyone interested in the process, history, and sociology of science.
  • “It’s also a book about people … how do they become scientists? … There are a lot of intrigues, a lot of personal life, maybe scientific politics.” — Yovel [04:41]

Sociality and Reciprocal Altruism in Vampire Bats (06:13)

• Vampire Bats’ Social Structure: Known for a dramatic form of reciprocal altruism—bats regurgitate blood to feed hungry non-kin, with expectation of future reciprocity.
  • “One of the first and best described examples for such a reciprocal altruism.” — Yovel [08:28]
• Cheating and Social Policing: Cheaters—those who take but don’t reciprocate—are quickly ostracized.
  • “If I will cheat everyone all the time, eventually I will be left without friends and I will get no food donations.” — Yovel [08:58]
• Memorable Quote:
  • “One way to create a cheater vampire is to starve her before every encounter so that she has no food to give. But Carter is not convinced that this would work. Vampires’ social sentences are very acute and he suspects that partners would immediately notice that she is starved and so is not to blame.” — McNeff quoting the book [09:46]

Bat Sociality: Diversity and Evolution (12:15)

• Bats display tremendous diversity in social organization—some are solitary, others form colonies of millions, and others practice fission-fusion dynamics.

• Jack Bradbury’s Contributions:

  • Discovery of “lekking” in hammerheaded bats (males aggregate, display and sing to attract females).
  • Such strategies allow females to choose among many males, boosting mating efficiency.
  • “Their vocalization sounds like honking … It’s something you can only watch and see in tropical areas in Africa.” — Yovel [14:14]

• Fun Analogy: Lekking compared to marketplace organization and even online dating, where “10% of the bats get the lion’s share of mating,” echoing trends on apps like Tinder [16:09].

Communication vs. Echolocation (19:01)

• Distinction: Echolocation calls are stereotyped and short for sensing; social vocalizations are highly variable and serve multiple functions.

• Bats exhibit some form of vocal learning—young bats’ calls adapt based on what they hear, leading to dialects.

  • “This is very important for complex communication like human language … It can allow the emergence of dialects.” — Yovel [21:28]

• Sack-winged bats as a model: Pups learn songs from fathers, enabling regional dialects [24:01].

• Vocal Passwords & Accents: Vocal dialects may act as “passwords,” indicating local group membership or fitness.

  • “If you’re singing the local dialect, this means that you’re fit for this area … Humans mostly prefer people with our own accent.” — Yovel [26:37]

Bat Communication and the Role of Machine Learning (28:19)

• AI in Bat Research: Yovel's team used machine learning to analyze bat vocalizations, revealing nuanced “addressing”—bats alter their calls based on the recipient, in both context and tone.

  • “We can train a machine … to identify the context and also the addressee.” — Yovel [29:22]
  • Analogy: Greeting a parent versus a boss—same phrase, different intonation [28:33].

• Content of Bat Communication: In fruit bats, most communication is antagonistic—fighting over space, mates, or food, rarely cooperative [30:55].

The Origins of Echolocation: Scientific History (32:17)

• Donald Griffin: First discovered and proved bats use echolocation for orientation and hunting.
  • “A lot of what we do today is just kind of replicating his stuff with … more modern techniques.” — Yovel [33:29]
  • Griffin also laid foundations for thinking about animal consciousness [34:09].
• Hans-Ulrich Schnitzler & Jim Simmons: Their heated debate over bat ranging accuracy shows how scientific rivalries and collaboration drive the field.
  • Schnitzler’s accidental discovery of how bats avoid Doppler shifts is emblematic of scientific serendipity [35:49].
  • Simmons introduced psychophysics, revealing bats’ millimeter-level accuracy in distance estimation—hotly debated but largely replicated [39:20].
• Alan Grinnell: Among the first to record bat brain signals, revealing unique neurons tuned for sound timing, thus distance [41:02].

On Bat Intelligence (45:01)

• Comparing Intelligence: Yovel warns against directly comparing animal intelligence across species—it’s context-dependent.
  • “In terms of echolocation, they are definitely better than us … Animals will have intelligence that fits their needs.” — Yovel [45:36]
  • Bats display impressive memory, learning flexibility, and cognitive abilities for their ecological needs [46:25].

Co-Evolution: Moths vs. Bats (47:15)

• Some moths can hear bats’ ultrasonic calls and even “jam” bat echolocation using their own sounds [47:28].

Bat Evolution and Fossil Record (48:34)

• Brock Fenton: Studies bat fossils to probe the origins of flight and echolocation, using inner ear anatomy as a clue [48:51].
  • The evolutionary timing of flight and echolocation is debated—did they evolve in sequence or together?
  • Fenton proposes a “tandem” hypothesis, as echolocation and flight together are energetically advantageous [52:18].
• Certain bats can delay pregnancy during hibernation—unique reproductive adaptation [53:25].

Conservation: Bats in Peril (55:49)

• Human Threats: Main causes of bat mortality and endangerment are wind turbines, habitat destruction, disease, and human persecution.
  • “Bats’ number one enemy is undoubtedly the human being.” — McNeff [56:07]
• Regulatory and technological solutions exist; e.g., curbing turbines at certain wind speeds can sharply reduce bat deaths [58:39].
  • “We should say, okay, you’re making green energy is great … but you should stop your turbines at a certain airspeed … you save the bats.” — Yovel [60:39]
• Bats are crucial ecosystem contributors—pollinators and insect control agents—loss could ripple elsewhere [59:18].

Urban Bats and Yovel’s Research (61:28)

• Development of miniature tracking sensors has enabled Yovel to study bats’ adaptation to cities, revealing how they exploit urban environments and maintain complex social lives over years [61:28].

On ‘What Is It Like to Be a Bat?’ – The Philosophical Perspective (63:27)

• Thomas Nagel’s essay explored the “alienness” of bat experience.
• Yovel agrees there’s a limit to understanding subjective bat experience but sees value in striving for objective study:
  • "We are … that's our goal. Our goal is to find objective ways, paradigms, methods, approaches to study what it is like to be a bat." — Yovel [64:11]

Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|-------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:41 | Yossi Yovel | "It's also a book about people... there are a lot of intrigues, a lot of personal life, maybe scientific politics." | | 08:58 | Yossi Yovel | "If I will cheat everyone all the time, eventually I will be left without friends and I will get no food donations." | | 14:14 | Yossi Yovel | "Their vocalization sounds like honking… It’s something you can only watch and see in tropical areas in Africa." | | 16:09 | Gregory McNeff | "[Bradbury] described these hammerhead bats as 'the dumbest bats I've raised,' yet it's still a successful strategy." | | 21:28 | Yossi Yovel | "Vocal learning… can allow the emergence of dialects." | | 29:22 | Yossi Yovel | "We can train a machine… to identify the context and also the addressee." | | 33:29 | Yossi Yovel | "A lot of what we do today is just kind of replicating [Griffin's] stuff with… more modern techniques." | | 45:36 | Yossi Yovel | "In terms of echolocation, they are definitely better than us… Animals will have intelligence that fits their needs." | | 56:07 | Yossi Yovel | "Bats’ number one enemy is undoubtedly the human being." | | 60:39 | Yossi Yovel | "We should say, okay, you’re making green energy is great… but you should stop your turbines at a certain airspeed… you save the bats." | | 64:11 | Yossi Yovel | "Our goal is to find objective ways, paradigms, methods, approaches to study what it is like to be a bat." |

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 03:20 — Why write the book?
• 06:13 — Vampire bats & reciprocal altruism
• 12:15 — Bat sociality & lekking
• 19:01 — Bat communication and vocal learning
• 24:01 — Sack-winged bats, vocal learning, and dialects
• 28:19 — AI in bat vocalization research
• 32:35 — Donald Griffin, origins of echolocation research
• 35:49 — Scientific debates: Schnitzler vs. Simmons
• 41:02 — Alan Grinnell and bat brain studies
• 45:23 — Comparing bat and human/primate intelligence
• 47:28 — Moth defenses against bat echolocation
• 48:51 — Fossils, evolution, and Brock Fenton
• 55:49 — Conservation, human threats, and wind turbines
• 61:28 — Yovel’s urban bat research
• 63:27 — Philosophical close: What is it like to be a bat?

Tone and Style

The conversation is intellectually engaging but accessible, blending scientific rigor with curiosity, reflection, and humor. Yovel peppers his responses with analogies, personal experiences, and the occasional playful jab at the quirks of bats—and of scientists themselves.

Utility for New Listeners

This episode is valuable for anyone interested in:

• Animal cognition and intelligence
• The messy, human process of scientific discovery
• Behavioral ecology and evolutionary biology
• Conservation issues and the impact of technology on wildlife

Whether or not you have read The Genius Bat, this episode offers a compelling narrative of bats as both scientific subjects and symbols of the untapped mysteries of the natural world—and underscores the idea that our knowledge is always a work in progress.