Podcast Summary:

New Books Network — Zoe Dubno, "Happiness and Love" (Scribner, 2025)
Host: Chris Holmes
Guest: Zoe Dubno
Date: November 19, 2025

Overview of the Episode

In this episode of New Books Network (Burned by Books), host Chris Holmes welcomes debut novelist Zoe Dubno to discuss her new book, Happiness and Love. The conversation explores the novel’s distinctive one-paragraph, stream-of-consciousness structure, savage wit, and satirical portrait of the New York City art world through the lens of a narrator enduring a surreal dinner party following a friend's funeral. Dubno and Holmes examine not only the art world’s vanities but also broader themes of friendship, authenticity, social ambition, and the function of art in people's lives.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reading and Form: The "Single Paragraph" Structure

• Book Excerpt & Context ([04:22]):
  • Dubno reads a vivid, humorous passage about New York City's summer, class pretensions, and the fictions of "real New Yorker" identity (see full quote below).
• Why This Form? ([07:50–10:23])
  • Dubno drew inspiration from Thomas Bernhard’s The Woodcutters, appreciating the freedom and authenticity in the one-paragraph, ranting style.
  • Zoe Dubno [08:18]:

    "Even though it seems like it's something that's more constricting...actually, it's the way that the mind works...you can jump from one thought to another."

  • She describes her natural inclination toward long, digressive sentences, which mirror the narrator’s and her own habitual modes of thought.

2. The Dinner Party as a Literary Device

• Both Dubno’s novel and Bernhard’s The Woodcutters use a dinner party as the crucible for character reveal and existential drama ([13:11–13:31]).
• Dinner parties are shown as perfect for "conjuring all manner of interesting discussion, but also disasters," as Holmes puts it.

3. Art World Satire and Careerism

• The book is both "about the New York art world and not," targeting the empty status-seeking of its denizens ([13:31–17:30]).
• Dubno compares her approach to Kingsley Amis’s Old Devils, assembling characters out of “the most annoying characteristics” she’s seen, then gifting them to her cast ([17:30–19:57]).
  • Zoe Dubno [16:08]:

    "It's not about people that are interested in making certain policies. It's about people that are interested in power. That's how power works. You know, abuse of power comes as no surprise. Jenny Holzer. That's art."

4. Celebrity, Writers, and Social Status

• Writers as iconic social figures—albeit in select circles ([22:43–24:43]):
  • Dubno discusses the phenomenon of “neighborhood celebrities” versus truly public literary fame, expressing amusement and a bit of nostalgia for a time when the latter was more common.

5. Humor as Critique and Character

• Holmes praises the book’s "laugh out loud" quality, which Dubno attributes to both her own personality and writing with her Fiction MFA advisor, John Keene, as her initial audience ([25:30–27:34]):
  • Zoe Dubno [27:34]:

    "Funny books are what I like to read... Proust is really, really funny. Proust is a serious comedian."

  • The humor often arises from the narrator’s loquaciousness and creative insult—e.g., describing a character as a "self involved, predacious remora, a suckling, ravining piranha" ([24:43]).

6. The Disruptive Presence: 'Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?'

• The dinner party plot device brings in an actor who serves as catalyst, challenging the dinner guests’ pretensions and worldviews ([27:41–32:23]).
  • The actor contests the “gatekeeping” of art, arguing that the art world’s exclusivity makes masterpieces seem inaccessible ([28:51]):
    • Zoe Dubno [29:43]:

      "There's so much literature that's just so good that people act like you need some kind of PhD or like high level of understanding to read. And it really is...just read stuff."

  • Dubno notes the ambivalence in both the narrator’s and her own alignment with the actor’s populist philosophy—art for all versus the possibility that not "everything that somebody thinks is a masterpiece is one" ([33:04]).

7. Optimism, Freedom, and Conclusion

• The novel ends on a note of "sentimental positivity," contrasting the narrator’s liberation from toxic social networks with the persistent bitterness of the preceding narrative ([34:09–36:17]).
  • Zoe Dubno [34:43]:

    "Now I'm out. Like, I don't actually have to be caught up with these people anymore. I'm free."

• Holmes and Dubno agree that the book's resonance goes beyond the art world—it’s about power, status, and the revealing nature of dinner parties ([39:23–40:12]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the narrator’s sensibility and the city ([04:22]):
  • “It’s actually a mental illness to be from New York. It's rendered me completely moronic when it comes to the great outdoors...As a kid, I seriously thought that the whole earth by default was paved with cement. And on top of the cement, people had planted grass to make Central Park.” — Zoe Dubno (reading)
• On the art world’s emptiness ([14:36]):
  • “She had an inkling that there was something deeply empty about them, but they liked her. They saw something in her. And so she went, I like these people.” — Zoe Dubno
• On crafting the characters ([18:56]):
  • “When I was trying to pick something to read, I was thinking of, you know, Eugene always is copying the furniture of his friends, but making it fancier and nicer. And that's something that I'd seen before. And it just drove me crazy.” — Zoe Dubno
• On art and accessibility ([29:40]):
  • “If you can read my book, you can read... come on, read the Proust. It's going to make you feel so good.” — Zoe Dubno
• On literary celebrity ([23:38]):
  • “There were certain people that nobody outside of our group would know... Chef Boris was our celebrity... There's a guy that looks like Tom Stoppard always at the bagel place near my house.” — Zoe Dubno

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:22] — Dubno reads from Happiness and Love
• [08:18] — Discussion of Thomas Bernhard and the novel’s structure
• [13:31] — Satire of art world careerism, characters, and creation
• [18:56] — Details on character inspiration and furniture envy
• [24:43] — The humor and “linguistic performance” of the book
• [27:41] — The actor as disruptive dinner party guest, discussion of art and access
• [29:43] — Populism in art: “just read stuff”
• [34:43] — The narrator’s escape and optimistic ending
• [36:17] — Book recommendation: Simone de Beauvoir’s The Mandarins
• [39:23] — Conclusion: the dinner party as microcosm and Dubno’s grandfather’s take

Book Recommendations & Closing Thoughts

• Recommended by Zoe Dubno:
  • The Mandarins by Simone de Beauvoir — praised for its "hilarious things about fashion, but also about, you know, relationships, love, politics, moral doubt" ([37:11])
  • Dubno also lauds Proust for his comedic genius.

Tone & Style

The episode is both erudite and playful, matching Dubno’s novel in its intellectual digressions, sharp social satire, and bursts of humor. Both Holmes and Dubno are quick-witted and fluent, with Dubno’s self-deprecating asides and energetic speech echoing her narrator’s comic monologue.

For Listeners Who Haven’t Read the Book

Happiness and Love is a propulsive, darkly funny takedown of the art world and its gatekeepers, but also a meditation on the search for authenticity and meaning in social, artistic, and personal life. The episode gives a rich taste of the novel’s style, themes, and humor, while delving into the creative process, literary influences, and the universality of its satire.