Chaos, Disorder, Woke Indoctrination & Total Failure! Francis Foster on the Dire State of Education

Summary

New Culture Forum Podcast:

"Chaos, Disorder, Woke Indoctrination & Total Failure! Francis Foster on the Dire State of Education"

Date: May 17, 2026

Guest: Francis Foster

Host: Emma (NCF)

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Episode Overview

This episode features comedian and former teacher Francis Foster discussing his new book, "Uneducated: My Life as a Teacher and Why You Should Never Become One." Foster offers a candid, humor-laden critique of the British education system, focusing on themes of discipline, the impact of woke ideology, low expectations for students (especially for working-class and minority children), and systemic failure. The conversation draws on Francis’s extensive classroom experience in state schools and provides a first-hand account of challenges faced by educators, students, and society at large.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Write About Education? [03:38]

• Foster believes education is “the most important thing that nobody really cares about.” He laments that society ignores in-depth discussion on the topic and only reacts when young people behave in ways considered harmful.
• Quote:

  "Nobody really cares about education. You do a video on education, how many people are actually going to engage with it? Not that many. Yet. People get really upset when they see young people behaving in a way that they don't like..."
  —Francis Foster [04:02]

2. Reality of Teaching in British State Schools [04:56]

• Teaching is depicted as a near-impossible job due to class diversity, special needs, and disruptive students.
• Excessive bureaucracy shifts focus away from actual teaching.
• The average teaching career lasts less than five years, according to Foster.
• Quote:

  "You've got 30 kids in a class… from kids like yourself who will go to university… through to kids who are so dyslexic they can't even write their own name… you've got kids with profound learning difficulties… How is one teacher meant to cater to that diverse group…? The answer is it's impossible."
  —Francis Foster [05:09]

3. Discipline as the Foundation of Education [08:42–10:57]

• Importance of discipline highlighted through comparison to strict schools, including Katharine Birbalsingh’s Michaela School and even stricter regimes abroad.
• Foster asserts that children “love a strict teacher,” associating structure with safety, especially for those from chaotic backgrounds.
• Quote:

  "What the kids need more than anything is… even more structure… because kids feel safe when there is structure, order, discipline."
  —Francis Foster [10:02]

4. Critique of Child-centered Learning [11:33]

• Foster and Emma deride “child-centered” education as a utopian, impractical method diminishing adult responsibility.
• Foster argues children are “feral,” particularly boys, and adults’ job is to civilize and guide them.
• Quote:

  "A young boy is basically a glorified baboon. That's what a young boy is...you need to teach them how to be a functioning member of society. That's the job of adults."
  —Francis Foster [12:18]

5. The Consequences of Low Expectations & Poor Discipline [14:00]

• Lack of clear boundaries leads to lawless classrooms, setting children up for failure and, eventually, brushes with criminal justice.
• Story about a police officer being the first to ever tell a teenager “no.”
• Quote:

  "I literally think I was the first person in his life who ever told him no. If you're brought up... that the rules don't apply to you... why would you follow the rules?"
  —Francis Foster [14:00]

6. Critique of Adult Abdication and "Woke" Authority [16:45–18:50]

• Discussion about the abdication of responsibility by adults everywhere, conflating infantilization with putting too much on children. Foster suggests the older generation pursues comfort, shuns responsibility, and still seeks moral heroism with little real sacrifice.
• Quote:

  "If you want to actually be a force for good, a genuine force for good, then you're going to need to have skin in the game. And I don't think a lot of people do." —Francis Foster [19:43]

7. Political Influence in Education [20:13]

• Analysis of teachers’ left-leaning politics and the NEU's (National Education Union) activism, especially how young people are educated through a lens fostering radicalism and activism rather than critical thinking.
• Quote:

  "It's really worrying when... teachers aren't teaching kids how to think, they're teaching them what to think, whether it be climate change, whether it be the situation in the Middle East..." —Francis Foster [21:07]

8. The True Role of a Teacher [22:22]

• Education should make pupils better at knowledge and better as people.
• Foster insists:

  "My job is, at the end of the day, you're going to walk out of the class better than when you walked in... This idea that they don't want to be the best version or they don't care about school... it's a load of nonsense." —Francis Foster [22:22]

9. The "Bigotry of Low Expectations" [24:23]

• Recounts a training session where visiting advisers said black boys couldn't be expected to sit and write for up to an hour, critiquing the underlying bigotry and soft racism.
• Quote:

  "It's a bigotry of soft and low expectations... you have more melanin in your skin… therefore you’re not capable… that’s actually quite racist." —Francis Foster [25:24]

10. Cultural Neglect and Curriculum [26:51]

• Critique of the devaluation of the “classics” and British cultural heritage in education, suggesting that curriculum changes often undermine national pride and cultural knowledge.
• Quote:

  "You just look at these amazing people that we've created. Artists, writers, poets, thinkers… and you're going, we don't have culture? What are you talking about?"
  —Francis Foster [29:26]

11. Impact of Covid and Intergenerational Inequity [30:50]

• Foster believes the response to Covid (lockdowns) was “monumentally selfish,” favoring the old over the young and causing a “lost generation.”
• Quote:

  "Covid and the actions... was monumentally selfish… done to prioritize the old over the young. Everything. Lockdowns. We basically said… you don't matter. Stay at home..."
  —Francis Foster [30:50]

12. Rise of Nihilism and Loss of Faith in Society [32:26]

• With the “game” of social mobility out of reach, young people become nihilistic or even revolutionary.
• Quote:

  "You know what, fuck your game. I'm going to flip the board over. And that's what we're seeing."
  —Francis Foster [32:26]

13. Class, Mobility, & White Working Class Boys [34:35]

• Discusses the persistent underperformance of white working-class boys, linking it to class-based neglect and deeply ingrained attitudes within the educational and broader establishment.
• Quote:

  "If you look at our particular sphere, how many people here went to private school, how many people actually came from normal backgrounds? The reality is not many of them."
  —Francis Foster [35:37]

14. Grammar Schools and Social Mobility [38:05]

• Advocate for grammar schools as vectors of social mobility. Origins of guests' own familial experiences as evidence for their importance.
• Quote:

  "Those grammar schools were instrumental in taking a whole generation of working class boys and girls who were actually academically bright... pipeline for them to get jobs with middle class salaries." —Francis Foster [40:22]

15. The Role of Individual Teachers [44:38]

• Foster and Emma share stories of teachers who made a lasting impact. Foster references humor, candor, and classic literary direction as key to his own educational transformation.
• Memorable Story:

  "'Andrea darling, you sit here, you don't really contribute to the lessons... why don't you just piss off and become a hairdresser?'... 'That's sexist.' 'Good point, Kathleen. Andrea darling, why don't you piss off and become a welder?'"
  —Mr. Potter, as quoted by Francis Foster [44:55]

16. Comedy and Free Speech [48:47]

• Comedy, Foster argues, is under threat from “woke” censorship in TV and mainstream circuits, but thrives online. Critical of those who say one shouldn’t joke in hard times; instead, sees humor as deeply patriotic and vital for resilience.
• Quote:

  "To those people who say that you shouldn't joke about this, these people with their po faces and their sour expressions who called themselves patriots, my argument to you is there's nothing more patriotic than having a laugh. That's what it means to be English."
  —Francis Foster [50:19]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On discipline and structure:

  "Discipline is everything. Discipline is everything in life..."
  —Francis Foster [09:01]

• On 'Child-centered' approaches:

  "Would it essentially [mean]… the child is in charge of their own education because a child knows what they need… a young boy is basically a glorified baboon."
  —Francis Foster [12:14]

• On being a strict teacher:

  "Kids love a strict teacher."
  —Francis Foster [10:57]

• On being taught Shakespeare:

  "I remember going into A level English, hating Shakespeare, never understanding it, despising it, and getting taught Hamlet ... and just coming away, just loving it, absolutely loving it."
  —Francis Foster [47:46]

• On humor and Englishness:

  "There's nothing more patriotic than having a laugh. That's what it means to be English... it's a sense of humor, it's banter, it's having a laugh. Because that's how you cope."
  —Francis Foster [50:19–51:12]

• Closing line (tongue-in-cheek):

  "And if you don't join, you are gay and retarded."
  —Francis Foster [53:37]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic/Section | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Francis Foster introduces his critique | 03:38 | | State school experience / impossible job | 04:56–06:45 | | Discipline and boundaries | 08:42–10:57 | | Child-centered learning critique | 11:33–13:19 | | Examples of low expectations and racism in training | 24:23–25:24 | | British culture, pride, and curriculum gaps | 26:51–30:34 | | Generation disadvantaged by Covid | 30:50–33:15 | | Class, grammar schools, and mobility | 34:35–41:39 | | Role of exceptional teachers | 44:38–48:28 | | Comedy, free speech, and humor as resistance | 48:47–53:12 |

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Overall Tone and Style

The episode is conversational, acerbic, and irreverently humorous, with Foster blending biting critique with self-deprecating humor and vivid anecdote. While both he and Emma hold conservative or classical liberal perspectives, they invite challenge; the banter is lively, and the tone swings from satirical to earnest, especially around matters of culture, societal decline, and personal experience.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a thorough, often satirical, yet deeply personal examination of the perceived failures in Britain’s education system. Foster targets bureaucracy, discipline, ideological drift, and lost opportunities, while anchoring his points in stories both poignant and comic. The discussion ultimately pivots to the necessity of laughter—as both coping mechanism and cultural anchor—in a society he otherwise paints as imperiled by mediocrity and confusion.

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For the full experience of Foster's wit and Emma's incisive questions, "Uneducated" is available now and the members-only discussion continues beyond this episode.

Transcript

[Francis Foster]

Whatever your thing, it could be anything. Canva helps you make that thing a thing. Canva is a simple online tool thing. It's a way to design, with our magic AI tool, things you can social media your thing, generate images or videos of your thing, make decks or presentations to show your thing whatever needs to be done for your thing. Canva can make it an even better and bigger thing. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing. It's an impossible job. And that's the reason why the average teaching career lasts less than five years. Kids love a strict teacher. Look, a young boy is basically a glorified baboon. I literally think I was the first person in his life who ever told him no. The problem is for me is where you get left wing progressives who are essentially in charge of the teaching union, essentially in charge of education. One of the things that they said is, look, we can't expect black boys to be sitting at a desk writing for 45 minutes. It's the bigotry of soft and low expectations. You know, they, they associate England with the empire and the evils of empire and the slave trade. If you look at our particular sphere, how many people here went to priority private school? And what the Labour Party have done is they've scrapped grammar schools and have made it unobtainable for those children. You see it here. You don't really contribute to the lessons, you don't do any work. I mean, why don't you just piss off and become a hairdresser? The comedy industry, TV comedy industry. I mean, that's done. He goes, nowadays, everybody wants to be gay. And

[Emma]

today's guest is a comedian who hosts one of the biggest podcasts in the world. But before that he was a teacher. Not that you would know because he never mentions it. Frances Foster, welcome to the show.

[Francis Foster]

Well, it's lovely to be here. It's very nice. We. Ollie, the producer was late. Boo, hiss.

[Emma]

Immediately outed.

[Francis Foster]

Yeah, disgusting. You know, an hour late.

[Emma]

Honestly, the professionalism.

[Francis Foster]

And you know, it's. I always quote when people are like the Duke of Wellington. You know this quote? No, it goes a little bit like this. He goes, if you're early, you waste your time. If you're late, you waste my time. Don't waste my time. And that is a man, Oliver, who defeated the French and Napoleon decimated them. There's a little bit of help from the Prussians, but we're not gonna. It's not even a real country. Prussia, and as a result of that, is a hero. I'm Just saying, you just can't get the staff, you can't get. This is meant to be a right wing channel. Emma. I'd expect this from, you know, Navarro media.

[Emma]

Ollie's having a little breakdown.

[Francis Foster]

I know. And so he should. So he should. Navarro media. I'd expect them, you know, to be walking in with a hummus sandwich, wasting everyone else's time. Just wasting Everybody else's time. 40 minutes late saying that, you know, time is a, is, you know, is a patriarchal construct.

[Emma]

Honestly, just no discipline.

[Francis Foster]

Exactly.

[Emma]

We'll get onto that though.

[Francis Foster]

Work ethic.

[Emma]

It was a segue into the topic of your new book. Thank you, Uneducated plug. Thank you. Francis has written a new book on his time as a teacher. So let's begin by talking about why you, as a comedian and a very successful podcast host would write a book about education.

[Francis Foster]

So why did I write a book about educa? That's a good question. It's because it is one of locker. How much of our time has been spent talking about wokeism through the years since. When we saw the rise of wokism in 2016, everybody was saying, you know, the kids are retarded. They'll learn to use Internet vernacular.

[Emma]

Non crime hate incident has been recorded.

[Francis Foster]

Absolutely. Thank you. The kids are stupid. They believe stupid things. These are stupid, stupid kids. And we demonize them. But then actually if you take a step back and you go, well, what's the reason for that? And the reason is education. Education is the most important thing that nobody really cares about. Nobody really cares about education. You do a video on education, how many people are actually going to engage with it? Not that many. Yet. People get really upset when they see young people behaving in a way that they don't like or they think are harmful or destructive or whatever.

[Emma]

So you, I mean you've been a teacher, you've actually been in schools. You said to me before we were filming that you only stopped being a teacher in 2020. I think that's right.

[Francis Foster]

Indeed.

[Emma]

Yeah. What was your experience of being in the classroom in a state school?

[Francis Foster]

Oh, it was horrible.

[Emma]

What was it like?

[Francis Foster]

It was brutal. It's brutal. So this is how the education system works. You've been to schools and of course

[Emma]

the title is why you should never subtitle is why you should never become a teacher.

[Francis Foster]

Yes. So you've been in education. This is how it works. So I did six years in secondary and then I retrained, did six years in primary. So let's take the primary school System, you've got 30 kids in a class and you've got everyone from kids like yourself who will go to university, very bright, articulate, and have got a real chance of, you know, making an impact on society in a positive way. You've then got the whole spectrum, right the way through to kids who are so dyslexic they can't even write their own name. And then you've got kids with profound learning difficulties, some of whom may be non verbal autistic. And you go, how is one teacher meant to cater to that diverse group of kids, that diverse range of abilities? And the answer is it's impossible. And then you look at what is the behavior aspect of it? Where you go, the majority of the kids are great, they just want to come in, they want to learn why. They may be a little bit naughty and rambunctious, but that's just children. Fine. And then you've got two or three in every class that are essentially there to cause mayhem and disruption and to destroy the learning for the other 27 kids. And what we're fundamentally asking teachers to do is an impossible job. And then you've got to fill up pointless amounts of bureaucracy so you become like a full time administration assistant, then you've got to go to pointless meetings, then you've got to do everything else. On top of that, it's an impossible job. And that's the reason why the average teaching career lasts less than five years.

[Emma]

Do you think we sacrifice the, the, the, the, the talented kids, the kids who have the most promise to the, I mean you called them rambunctious, but let's say like disruptive kids or the kids who maybe don't have Eng first language. Those kids who are maybe holding back the small number of kids who might otherwise do well. Do you think we're sacrificing those people to the, to the majority?

[Francis Foster]

Somebody talking from experience. Emma, come on, tell the therapist. No, no, that's totally what we do. It's totally what we do because I. So what we have in schools is something called sen, which is special educational needs. And kids who are super bright are described as having a special educational need. And I agree with that because they require something very, very different from their education. And the average kid does, requires academically. So we do, we cater for the middle because schools are judged. Well, they were and it's changed now. But when I was teaching from A to C, that's how schools are judged. So on GCSEs and A levels and all the rest of it. So the reality is you're always going to cater for the middle, and the kids who are on the margins are going to be left to their own devices. The amount of times I've been in a classroom, I've seen a bright kid, and a lot of the bright kids are not going to kick up a fast. They're not going to be disruptive. They'll finish their work and they'll say, one of the tasks they'll be given is to help the other kids in the class. And you're like, why is that kid teaching the others how to do maths? How is that an effective use of their time? Shouldn't we be deepening that child's learning, really pushing them? And the reality is that we don't.

[Emma]

How so? You look at a school like Catherine Burbil Singh's school, where, I mean, she's famously called the world's strictest teacher or the country's strictest teacher.

[Francis Foster]

Maybe she's not the world's strictest. I mean, we could go to Nigeria. We'd find some stricter teachers.

[Emma]

How important do you think discipline is? Because her. The results in her school are incredible. How important do you think discipline is for actually getting the, you know, good educational.

[Francis Foster]

It's everything. It's everything. Discipline is everything. Discipline is everything in life. Like, you can't run a podcast if you have a producer who comes in half an hour late. You know what I mean? It just doesn't work.

[Emma]

He's not even listening.

[Francis Foster]

He's not even listening. He's on his phone.

[Emma]

W. Game.

[Francis Foster]

Unbelievable.

[Emma]

He should have gone to Catherine Verbelson's school. Only though, a little bit.

[Francis Foster]

No, he should have gone to school in Nigeria. They would have given him some beatings, and maybe he would have actually come in on time with an iron shirt.

[Emma]

So there's the question. You've mentioned. You've mentioned beatings.

[Francis Foster]

Yes.

[Emma]

What do you. What do you. I mean, obviously, kids. Kids used to get sort of, like, caned. Now, actually, the options for disciplining students are fairly limited. What do you think actually can be done in order to, like, make sure that schools are disciplined so that, like in Katharine Burbal Singh school, they have to be, like, quiet in the corridors and they. They serve each other at lunch and things like that. But what. What can actually be done to kind of increase discipline in schools, do you think?

[Francis Foster]

Well, look, the reality is, is the more chaotic a child. So when you're teaching in schools like Catherine's, which is where I spend the majority of my educational Career where you've got kids who have coming from poor, underprivileged backgrounds, chaotic backgrounds, backgrounds where things like addiction exist, domestic violence, parents who are not functioning or very low functioning. What you need more than anything, what the kids need more than anything is when they get into school, it's even more structured than it is than the average school because kids feel safe when there is structure, when there's order, when there's discipline. People think that kids like it when there's a teacher who can't control the classroom. The reality is the vast majority of kids don't like it. Kids love a strict teacher.

[NCF Announcer]

Sorry for the interruption. Just want to let you know our second annual literary festival is taking place Friday the 5th to Saturday the 6th. June do get your tickets. We have a fantastic lineup. Our literary festival is basically the only free speech festival in the country where we platform writers and authors, your favorite broadcasters who aren't welcome at other literary festivals. We've got Alison Pearson, Professor David Betts, Lord Nigel Bigger, David Frost, too many to mention. Do go to our website, newcultureforum.org.uk or click on the link at the bottom of this video. Thanks so much.

[Emma]

What do you think of child centered learning then, where the kid is basically in charge and the teacher just follows? It's kind of the teaching equivalent of soft parenting, I think.

[Francis Foster]

Child centered learning. You see the idea of child centered learning, right? Like we saw it with trans, where people were saying, oh well, you know, the kid identifies as trans, therefore they are trans. You go, and the kid's 8 years old or 9 years old. This is ludicrous. Would it essentially child centered learning is this. It's the belief, it's the argument that the child is in charge of their own education because a child knows what they need.

[Emma]

A child is feral.

[Francis Foster]

Yes.

[Emma]

And needs to be taught how to be a civilized human being.

[Francis Foster]

Look, a young boy is basically a glorified baboon. That's what it, that's, that's what a young boy is. And over. And what you need to do is you need to teach them how to be a functioning, fully functioning member of society. And that's the job of the adults. That is our job. That's the job of the teacher going, no, you don't do that. You don't talk with your mouth full. You don't talk to people like that. Because if you let people get. Kids get away with negative behaviors and you don't pull them up on it, number one, you're being weak as a parent or as A teacher, whatever it may be. And number two, you're preparing that child for a life of failure. Because when they go into the real world and they have to compete to get a job and they're having a job, they're not going to. People aren't going to want to employ them, or if they do employ them, they're not going to be in employment for long and they're certainly not going to get a promotion. So you're literally stunting their life. Outcomes are.

[Emma]

Do you think then educational environments like that are basically creating a lawless society at the front end, that if there are no consequences for people's actions, like if, you know, teachers are getting punched and attacked and stuff like that, and there are no consequences, that you're basically, you're setting them up to live in a lawless society, giving them the expectation that there will be no consequences for their actions and that maybe that is contributing not just to, like, the general entropy in our society and how chaotic things seem to be increasingly getting, but also the fact that we're living in a kind of mediocrity.

[Francis Foster]

Well, look, look, I'll give you an example because I think, I think opinions are all well and good, but what really works is stories. We, we learn by sharing stories. So I'll tell you this story. I did a gig, it was a few years ago, and I was talking about teaching, and the police officer came up to me after. It was a police officer in the audience came up to me, was a trigonometry fan, and he told me a story that he arrested this, this kid who was 16, 17, was behaving in an antisocial manner. And he gave this kid chance after chance not to do the antisocial behavior that he was doing until he had no option, but he had to arrest him. And he's told me, and this is something that has stayed with me. He said, I literally think I was the first person in his life who ever told him no. Because if you're brought up with this idea that the rules don't apply to you and the rules don't actually matter and that they will never be enforced, if that's how you live your life, then why would you follow the rules? It's completely illogical. You wouldn't follow the rules because the rules don't matter. They're never in force and they don't apply to you. So what happens with these kids is they go further and further down the proverbial rabbit hole until they actually break a very significant law and then they're in court and they're looking at significant jail time.

[Emma]

Setting them up for failure.

[Francis Foster]

Exactly. The best thing you can do for kids is put them in a structured environment where you can show them a path that goes. If you do this, you will succeed if you work hard. And that doesn't mean that you're going to get an A star in or whatever it is now in GCSEs or A levels, because not everyone is academic. But you can show people, look, if you've got a skill or a talent, whatever it is, and you're prepared to work on it and you'll work hard on it and you're disciplined and you turn up every day and give it your best, all right, you may not go to Oxford, you may not go to Cambridge, but you actually might become a painter and decorate who's got his own business and will probably earn a lot more than a lot of people went to Oxford and Cambridge.

[Emma]

Yeah, a lot more.

[Francis Foster]

A lot more.

[Emma]

Unless they're a mathematician or an AI engineer.

[Francis Foster]

Yeah, absolutely. So all. And I think that that is such a powerful lesson. We're not teaching kids this idea that, you know, that we can be self indulgent and the rules don't apply to you and that you're a victim. I mean, all right, be a victim. We can all be victims. We can literally, we can all be victims. But it's not going to get you to where you want to be, do you think?

[Emma]

I mean, it's the same with the child centered learning and everything that we often. I mean, either teachers are getting too much flack or they're not getting enough flack. And you know, maybe we don't hold the sort of teaching class responsible for, you know, the sorts of outcomes that we see in our society through this lack of discipline. Because when we're talking about child centered learning, that is basically, and it's not just this case in education, it's across the board that adults have just sort of abdicated responsibility. And in one sense we infantilize the children and prevent them from growing up properly, but in another sense we're putting too much responsibility on them to shape their own development. And do you think this comes from the fact that teachers in general seem to be woke adjacent more on the left, that actually they should be held responsible for having a role in basically undermining authority, Undermining authority in society more generally and in schools because they don't claim any authority for themselves over their pupils.

[Francis Foster]

But I think this is a problem with people right the way through society. I don't think it's exclusive to teachers. I just think we are a generation, a society that doesn't want responsibility. Look at our dating culture. How many people, you know, we talk about the fact that, you know, that people aren't having kids. And that's a major problem. It is. And I think a lot of it is with men in this instance. But how many men want to settle down? How many men are very content to have three or four people on rotation and not have to settle down? How many people actually want to have responsibility? How many people want to build something? Well, how many people in our society, actually, what they want is comfort. And you'll say that, oh, they made me feel uncomfortable or, you know, I didn't feel comfortable. Why does life have to be comfortable?

[Emma]

What do you think went wrong?

[Francis Foster]

I mean, lots of things, obviously, lots of things went wrong. You know, it's really interesting in that people want to be seen as heroes. Particularly saw that in, you know, with, with wokeness and that that whole period of time where people talk about being on the right side of history and, you know, they wanted to be seen to be heroic. But the thing is, it's like if you want to be a hero, there's an element of self sacrifice there. Any heroic story, whether it's something like Oskar Schindler in Nazi Germany, right? The way I'm obsessed with ancient Greeks and mythology because there's so many of the morals that are so important and that we simply don't learn nowadays. But when you look at a hero, particularly in ancient Greece, there's an element of tragedy to it and there is an element of self sacrifice. I don't think we want to sacrifice that in life. People don't want to. People want to be comfortable and yet at the same time they want to be heroic. Well, you can't have one without the other. So if you want to actually be a force for good, a genuine force for good, then you're going to need to have skin in the game. And I don't think a lot of people do.

[Emma]

Do you think that that, I mean, particularly in education, that that is a. Is a. Is a political thing? Because there was some polling that suggested that the most popular party amongst teachers is the Green Party. And we see the National Education Union being very explicitly anti reform, pro Gaza, very political. They're taking a very particular political line. Do you think that's partly to do with the kind of culture that young people are being educated through? And also young people are supporting the Greens in Such droves, it seems. Maybe it's something to do with the fact they've gone through an education system that's maybe slightly biased in that direction.

[Francis Foster]

Well, look, we also need to be honest. Kids are going to be naturally more radical. They just are. Kids and young people are naturally going to be more radical. We were more radical when we were younger. We just, you know, speak for yourself, you know, you're on the layer, you know, So I always see kids, you're young people saying stupid things. They go like, we need to have some empathy here. We were all saying dumb stuff when we were 18, 19 years old. Right? That's just the reality of it. The problem is for me is where you get left wing progressives who are essentially in charge of a teaching union, essentially in charge of education. It's really worrying when people, when you see that teachers aren't teaching kids how to think, they're teaching them what to think, whether it be climate change, whether it be the situation in the Middle east and you go, you're not doing your job. The reality is we've got so many kids who come out of school unable to do the basics, we should be focusing on that.

[Emma]

What is the proper job of a teacher? Like, what should the teacher's role be? Is it just about imparting knowledge or is it also about like building character and like the broader, the broader picture of making the person into a good functional citizen.

[Francis Foster]

For me, when I taught, I always said to my primary school class who were 10, 11 years old, I said, my job is, at the end of the day, you're going to walk out of the class better than when you walked in. You become better at maths, you're going to become better at English, you're going to become better at PE and you're going to become a better person. I said, that's what we're trying to do here. Because otherwise, number one, what's the point? And number two, if you're not getting better, then you're either stagnating, in which case everybody's going to be overtaking you, or you're going to be regressing. And I said to them, these are kids from really poor backgrounds. I was like, what do you want to do? Don't you want to be the best version of yourself? There's this myth that kids don't care about doing well. I have never met a kid who doesn't want to succeed, who doesn't want to be the best version of themselves. They all want that. So this idea that they they don't want to be the best version or they don't care about school or they don't want to be. It's a load of nonsense.

[Emma]

Yeah. You get the impression that some of these schools, it's a bit like prison. You know, people go into prison and then they learn better how to be a criminal. That you go into one of these more chaotic schools and you, you know, has the complete opposite effect of bettering you. You're, you're sort of drawn into, you're drawn into the like good kids get drawn into the bad behavior of other kids. Do you think that our expectations of working class students in particular are set too low? Like the idea that Shakespeare is somehow inaccessible or like I think back to when I was at school and I went to a, you know, a normal, reasonably rough state school and my. For me, Shakespeare was just like heaven. And I think the idea that that's something that's inaccessible to, to working class kids, to kids from, you know, non English backgrounds is just mad.

[Francis Foster]

Well, it's, it's absolutely insane. And I remember once I was in a. So we used to get these people came in to do training days or training sessions and these, some, some of these were actually decent, some were. You like, most of them were just pretty useless, to be honest with you. And there was a small minority that were actually downright harmful. And I remember once. So we got this person coming in to teach, to, to do a lesson, to do a seminar with how to teach black boys. The moment I sat down I was like, all right, okay. And then they, one of the things that they said is, look, we can't expect black boys to be sitting at a desk writing for 45 minutes to an hour. And this is 10, 11 year old. And I was like, hang on, hang on. Right, why not? And then you did the usual progressive crap came out and, and I said to this, I said, look, I actually find this genuinely offensive. And I'll tell you why. Because they've. In Eton College right now, there's a small percentage of them who are black. Right. Pretty sure they're not having this lecture. I'm pretty sure they're not being told by the masters of the college that because they have a Nigerian or Jamaican or whatever it is background that they can't be expected to sit down and do what everybody else does. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's actually quite racist. Didn't go down well. But it's true. It's a bigotry of soft and low expectations. It's a bigotry of low expectations. What, because you have more melanin in your skin or you didn't come from as, you know, as muddied a background as someone else, therefore that means that you're not capable of that. When did we let this, allow this to happen? And that's a problem with society. And we'll talk about class because

[Emma]

you're

[Francis Foster]

looking at the class mobility and it's just been degraded in this country. And you look at a lot of our elites, I'm sorry, but most of them are crap. And you look at them and you go, they went from a public private school to Oxford to wherever else. And you just think to yourself, we just need fresh blood.

[Emma]

Do you think I'll come back to white working class boys? But do you think that education across the board, like I said, we're living in this mediocrity, that actually our education system across the board is breeding a kind of mediocrity? Because you mentioned the classics, Shakespeare, not just like the Greek classics, but Shakespeare and the great heights of Western civilization are not being taught because maybe the curriculum's being decolonized or these things aren't valued.

[Francis Foster]

But there's this, I'm going to tell you. So there was this clip that went viral of a comedian and I, I'm really upset, I can't remember his name, this middle aged white guy in, in the comedy Cellar in New York. And he went, when I was, he goes, I was a child of like, well, I grew up, I was, I was a teenager in the 80s. And when I was a teenager in the 80s, we wanted to be like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, we wanted to be cool, hard, tough, you know, muscular, get the girl, beat up the bad guys. He goes, nowadays everybody wants to be gay and retarded.

[Emma]

I didn't see that coming. No one, no one wants to be the kind of like you were saying before about the, like the hero who makes the sacrifice. You look back on the kind of education that kids got at the turn of the last century and it was all about sort of like boys being, you know, adventurers. And what, what do you think of the, of the suggestion that we should have a patriotic education because you said you don't want kids to be taught what to think, you want them to be taught how to think. But do you think that there is a place for like a more patriotic education than the former suggesting?

[Francis Foster]

Well, by patriotic suggestion do you mean that we should actually teach a more balanced curriculum where we look at the British Empire and gold levels, good and

[Emma]

bad, to give people a sense that, you know, there are things in their culture to love.

[Francis Foster]

Yeah, absolutely. It's. I always find it really interesting when you see these people go, oh, there's, you know, the English culture, you know, you know, English culture, it didn't give anything to the world. We don't have culture. And I'm going to. That to me is the most horrific and obviously incorrect notion I've ever heard. So my mom's Venezuelan. I remember you go to. If I went to Venezuela and I

[Emma]

go, everyone drink, everyone drink.

[Francis Foster]

I go. And people go to me, oh, you're from London. And I go, yeah. They go, oh man, I love the Rolling Stones. I love the Beatles, I love this, I love that. Oh, I love the English theater. Or I love, you know, Shakespeare. You just look at these amazing people that we've created. Artists, writers, poets, thinkers. You look at just the people who've changed the world. Charles Darwin. And you're going, we don't have culture. What are you talking about?

[Emma]

Have you ever seen a Morris dancer?

[Francis Foster]

Exactly. Do you know, we got, we got a guy on the show to talk about the, you know, the history of fashion, how it relates to politics. British, the Brits, the Brit, he was telling us the Brits invented the suit. The suit which is seen as the, you know, the attire that you wear for business was invented by.

[Emma]

See, this is the problem. If your culture gets so universalized and people wear their sort of like cultural dress to formal events.

[Francis Foster]

It's.

[Emma]

Everyone's wearing our cultural dress to formal events.

[Francis Foster]

Yeah, they're culturally appropriating it, Emma, is what they're doing. And so you're just thinking to yourself,

[Emma]

really, we've seen, there's been polling showing that young people, Gen Z don't want to fight for the country. Do you think that the education system is teaching young people to hate our country?

[Francis Foster]

I think it's multifaceted. I think there is a part of it where they associate England with the empire and the evils of empire and the slave trade and they get a one dimensional view of the empire. I also think as well, we need to be honest. And people on the right don't like this when I talk about this, but we've screwed young people over in this country. We have absolutely screwed them. Covid and the actions taken and the policies taken of COVID was monumentally selfish. And it was done to prioritize the old over the young. Everything. Lockdowns. We basically said to an entire generation of young people you don't matter. Stay at home and we'll see where we are in a few years. And your entire educational career, your professional career will be stunted as a result of this. Your romantic life, your social life, everything will grind to a hole. You will sacrifice years of your life. And you know what? Tough. We don't care. Oh, and by the way, we're going to print billions. We're going to devalue the currency so that when you do come out, you can't afford anything anyway.

[Emma]

What are the consequences for society overall of the, that the lost, the lost generation from COVID the kids who were learning at home on their laptops, not really getting a proper education. The fact that, you know, when kids are in school and a lot of these state schools, you know, it's really chaotic, there's no discipline. Like all of this sort of constellation of problems that you describe in your book, you've mentioned some of them here. What are the consequences of that for society, for the future of the country?

[Francis Foster]

So society and culture and everything else, it's basically like a game. It's a board game. And what we essentially do is we go, this is the game. And if you do the, if you, if you decide to participate in the game, you can need luck, you're going to need work and whatever else, but you're going to get something out of it. We've got a whole generation now who are participating in the game. They're not going to get anything out of it. And actually if you think about things like home ownership, etcetera, you're not going to be allowed to participate in the game. And eventually what is going to happen and is what we're seeing now with young people where they're going, oh, you're not going to let me participate in the game? You know what, fuck your game. I'm going to flip the board over. And that's what we're seeing.

[Emma]

Do you think it leads to sort of revolutionary attitude, to politics?

[Francis Foster]

I think it leads to nihilism. I think it leads to revolutionary attitude. I think it leads to destructive behavior, both self destructive and on a societal level. But I hear the kids go, you know, saying that they hate capitalism and they want socialism. And as somebody who has experienced socialism, that's a bad idea. It's a terrible idea.

[Emma]

Ding, ding. Venezuela. Yep.

[Francis Foster]

Another drink. But do I, do I understand them? Of course I do. Because for them, is capitalism really working? Think about if you're on 40 grand a year, can you live in London on 40 grand a year? Not really? What are you going to do? You're going to live in a house, share with five or six other people where most. And then you've got your graduate, the graduate tax, which is what it is. And then you've got to pay them rent on top of that, which is an astronomical amount. It's what, 11, 1200 quid for just a room? You don't even get your own place. And then everything is so expensive. Groceries. What are you left with at the end of it? And then we go, oh, you know, young kids aren't, you know, they, you know, they're not having kids. But why, how are they gonna have kids? Well, you're gonna have a kid in a flagship. It's. We're not, we're not being honest about it.

[Emma]

Well, let's, let's talk about class because you, you mentioned, you mentioned it already. And the white, we know white working class boys of all sort of like educational outcomes, white working class boys perform least well.

[Francis Foster]

Yeah.

[Emma]

How much of that do you think is sort of the way that they're looked upon by, by the educational establishment, by the, by the sort of establishment more generally as kind of being like cannon fodder?

[Francis Foster]

Yeah.

[Emma]

And how much of it actually is a cultural thing that actually a lot of minorities really value education? And maybe, maybe there is a kind of cultural aspect where, you know, maybe education isn't being so valued. Like what, what, what is it that exactly do you think is going on there? Because that's the, the fact that white working class boys are, do, are, are so far at the bottom of the pile is, I think the elephant in the room. It is the big, one of the biggest problems in education.

[Francis Foster]

Well, look, let's be honest as well, this country is very class based. It just is. If you look at, if you look at our particular sphere, how many people here went to private school, how many people actually came from normal backgrounds? The reality is not many of them.

[Emma]

And also despite most people going to university.

[Francis Foster]

Yeah. And then you look at the actual, you know, the working class white boys people, we don't care about them. We don't, we care about black boys. Well, we don't actually, let's be honest, because a Black boy is 14 times more likely to be murdered in London than their white counterparts and they're more likely to be murdered by a black boy. But we don't really talk about that either because that's a bit unpleasant.

[Emma]

And fatherlessness is something else you've spoken about.

[Francis Foster]

Yeah. And fatherlessness and all the rest of it. So the reality is that we don't really care. We just pretend to care about the things that we know and the issues that we know will make us look good.

[Emma]

Do the left care? Do they really care about the working class or is it just performative?

[Francis Foster]

I think some do, just like some people on the right do. But I think there's a lot of people who, who really don't. I don't think they do. I think what they do is because they pick, they cherry pick certain issues because they know that it will make them look good. Which is why, again, going back to Covid, we had a minute silence for George Floyd. Do you know that they had a minute silence for George Floyd on LBC radio?

[Emma]

I didn't, but I am not shocked.

[Francis Foster]

You just go, I remember my ex who was American and actually very left wing at the time and she was not. The time still is. And she, I remember her going to me, this is mental. Why are you doing this? What is this country got to do with the death of a man thousands and thousands of miles away? It's just ridiculous. It's insane. But everybody took it upon themselves because they knew that at a deep subconscious level that that is a way that you sit, that you show how you're moral and virtuous. The plight of a working class kid who grows up, grew up in a council estate in Middlesbrough or Sunderland and the reality is their life outcomes are going to be much lower than somebody who grows up in, who is black in Kensington. Nobody cares. Emily.

[Emma]

Well, you, you mentioned already social mobility. Grammar schools is one of the ways that traditionally working class kids have been more upwardly social mo socially mobile, but the Labour government hate them. Do you think we need more grammar schools or do you think that, you know, this is something that can be solved through changing the way education is done in state schools?

[Francis Foster]

Well, look, the problem with labor, with the labor, this Labour government in particular, is they're very ideological. So for those of you who don't know what a grammar school is, a grammar school is a selective school. You have to take what's called the 11 plus, which is an exam at the age of 11 and they take the top normally 8, 9% of all the entrance. And it is a school for the academically gifted. And a lot of people within labor don't like this because they see it as being elitist. It is elitist and they see it as being unfair and, you know, and segregationist and all the rest of this. The reality is I look at the case of my father, my dad grew up in a very. In a place called Wigan in the north of England.

[Emma]

I beat Wigan.

[Francis Foster]

You've been to grim up north in it. So if you've never been to Wigan. The most famous book ever written about Wigan is a book called the Road to Wigan Pier by George Orwell.

[Emma]

Very good book.

[Francis Foster]

It's a brilliant book. And when Orwell wanted to talk about the misery and depression of the English working classes, he went to Wigan. That's where my dad grew up.

[Emma]

And you could still go to Wigan for exactly the same purposes.

[Francis Foster]

Do you know, it's really funny. So when my dad took me to Wigan. Cause I've lived in London all my life. I was about six years old and he took me to Wigan and apparently I actually remember doing this. He took me around the center of Wigan and I started crying and I said the words, I want to go back to England. I don't know what this is, but I don't like it. And I want to go home. And I stand by that sentiment. I was right.

[Emma]

So we won't apologize to any viewers from Wigan because they'll probably agree.

[Francis Foster]

Yeah. So my dad. So I always remember talking to my dad going. When I was a boy, I looked and I really. I thought I had three options. I either went to work in Saint Helens Glass, the glass factory in St Helens. I went down the pit, or actually got an education. And it's very interesting that both St Helens Glass and the mines have been shut. But that's a difference. But that's another. That's another conversation entirely. So for my dad, education was a way out. And those grammar schools were instrumental in taking a whole generation of working class boys and girls who were actually academically bright and gifted. And it was a pipeline for them to get jobs with middle class salaries so that they could transform their lives. And what the Labour Party have done is they've scrapped grammar schools and we're going to come to private schools in a second and have made it unobtainable for those children, I think that has been catastrophic. I think it's strangled. There's a whole swathe of the population who would have flourished in grammar schools. And instead I wish I could have

[Emma]

gone to a grammar school and instead

[Francis Foster]

went to a comprehensive. And because of the poor behavior in classrooms, the fact that they weren't allowed to actually flourish, the fact that their talents weren't given the time and energy, it's a destruction of a whole generation's. How can I put this?

[Emma]

Morale.

[Francis Foster]

Potential. Potential. Because you're very bright I imagine. When you went to school, how many of your lessons were ruined because of poor behavior?

[Emma]

Gosh, most of them, I reckon.

[Francis Foster]

Most of them. How many of the lessons were you. And I know exactly the kind of kid you were, sitting in the corner of the room, opened a book and reading a book, whilst all around you there was mayhem, probably.

[Emma]

I mean, most of them,

[Francis Foster]

how much better would it have been, as someone like you, from a working class background, to go to a grammar school where you'd be surrounded by other kids of your academic ability, where you could go in every day and have lessons that were actually far more tailored to your abilities and your temperament.

[Emma]

And you know what, Francis? There were none of them. There were no grammar schools because they were all closed down.

[Francis Foster]

They were all closed down. So instead you went to a comprehensive, which. And you succeeded. But let's be honest, Emma, you succeeded in spite of the system, not because of it.

[Emma]

I did have one very, very good teacher and I will ask you about that before we finish the interview.

[Francis Foster]

But. And you know, and the. And by the way, this isn't me disparaging teachers who work in the. Because you can go to the worst schools now, guaranteeing you will find two or three teachers who are incredible and genuinely change lives and are amazing and wonderful, but they're the minority, it's not the majority. Whereas if there was grammar schools, I do think. And people go, oh, but the other kids. And we need more technical college for people, particularly boys who are not academic, and show them that if you take on a trade, you will be able to succeed, you'll be able to make money, you have your own business, you'll be the master of your own destiny. Well, don't do that.

[Emma]

Well, let me. I'll ask you that question now, then. So, I mean, one of the things I think a good education should do is teach kids how to be independent, like you say, to go out, be in control of your own destiny. And most people have a story. Most people particularly who have been. Had some success in life, have had one or two teachers that have completely changed their life. Shout out, Mr. Bowen. Shout out, Bonnie from my sixth form college. Excellent teachers just made a world of difference to me. Are there any particular teachers from when you were at school that you think did that for you?

[Francis Foster]

Oh, absolutely. So there's a teacher called Mr. Potter who gave me a love of history. This is a funny story. So bear in mind, this was 1999, 2000. Oh, it's a long time. Anyway, so there's this girl called he's

[Emma]

an old man as Francis.

[Francis Foster]

Yeah, yeah, I know. Andrea. And then Mr. Potter went to her, Andrea, darling, you. This was English A level class. He went, you sit here, you don't really contribute to the lessons. You don't do any work. I mean, why don't you just piss off and become a hairdresser? And then one of the girls said to him, sir, you can't say that. That's sexist. He went, good point, Kathleen. Andrea darling, why don't you piss off and become a welder?

[Emma]

This is the guy that transformed your education and shaped your future.

[Francis Foster]

Yes, absolutely.

[Emma]

No, but bravo, Mr. Potter.

[Francis Foster]

Bravo, Mr. Potter and Mr. Lomas, who were my English A level teachers, because what they actually did, joking aside, I'll tell you one other story. So we were doing the Importance of being earnest, and Mr. Lomas was talking about Oscar Wildtime's sexuality and saying, you know, informed his writing. And he was talking about how in Importance of Being Earnest there were certain allusions to gay sex. I love that they're not speak its name, all the rest of it. And I remember this lad called Chris put his hand up and he. Mr. Lomas went, yes, Chris. He went, sir, you always talk about rent boys and gay sex. And he goes, if you're always talking about it, does that mean you are one? And Mr. Lomas looked at Chris and went, chris, in life, you could argue that we are all rent boys, but the only labor mp you could pull is David Blunkett.

[Emma]

It was a different time.

[Francis Foster]

It was a different time. For those who don't know, David Blunkett was blind. And I just remember, like, the roof, it was pretty beautiful. It was beautiful.

[Emma]

Do you know where these teachers are now? Have you stayed in touch with them?

[Francis Foster]

No, I haven't, Mr. Limas and Mr. Potter. But in all serious, they were wonderful teachers. I remember the first lesson they gave us in Almanac of English Literature. You know, English literature. And I was like. I opened. I was like, what's this? And in it, it had the hundred books that you should read now as a kid. You can go on the Internet now and tell you. And it just then explained. And it had poems from John Donne, the Great, you know, the great poets, the great. The. The great writers, thinkers of our time. And they said, you should read this, you should read this, you should read this. I remember getting that and just being blown away.

[Emma]

It's so valuable for kids who are coming from backgrounds where maybe their parents don't read. And the only place they're gonna find out what to read is their school. It's only the teachers who are gonna be able to give them that kind of direction.

[Francis Foster]

I remember going into A level English, hating Shakespeare, never understanding it, despising it, and getting taught Hamlet, which arguably is one of the most impenetrable of his texts, and just coming away, just loving it, absolutely loving it. I now, when I've got time, I would happily go and watch Hamlet by myself in a theater and be in heaven and just. It's magical what he does. And with that play. Well, you overuse the word genius, but that play is genius when you think of when he wrote it and actually what it talks about, the human condition, that it's incomparable as a work of literature.

[Emma]

So many kids being deprived of Shakespeare and all of these great. I mean, you mentioned John Donne. I remember that, you know, it was during GCSEs or something. It was the first time I encountered John Donne. Before we end and we will go to members content after this, I want to ask you about comedy.

[Francis Foster]

Yes.

[Emma]

Because you are a comedian.

[Francis Foster]

Yes.

[Emma]

And a lot of people are saying, you know, comedy's dead. Woke. Killed it. Firstly, what is your view of the situation in comedy right now? Is it dead? Is it coming back from the brink after being sort of so crushed by political correctness? And also, how important do you think that laughter is actually for the country in times of crisis? Because I often see, especially now, a lot of people becoming, you know, sort of very serious about this, sort of, you can't laugh because the country's burning. But actually, comedy has been very historically important, you know, during. During the war and things like that, you know, keeping people's spirits up. So how important do you think comedy is? And do you think that it. It's, you know, it's over or, or not?

[Francis Foster]

No, comedy's not over. The comedy industry, tv, comedy industry, I mean, that's done, that's over. But comedy, no. Like, you can go on Instagram and you can find great comedians. I think in the uk, I think people are still scared to talk about certain issues and that you won't get booked at certain clubs. But that's becoming less and less relevant now. You can build a career online and you can circumnavigate that. You don't have to deal with that. And actually, you look at the comedians who are most successful now, they go against the grain. The biggest comedy show in the world is Kill Tony.

[Emma]

Love Kill Tony.

[Francis Foster]

Yeah. And it's brilliant. And Tony is wonderful. And all of these Things. But, but that's the biggest comedy show in the world for a reason. Because it's not woke, it's pushing back against all of these, you know, the liberal establishment and all the rest of it. So that's on the one hand. On the other hand, to those people who say that you shouldn't joke about this, these people with their po faces and their sour expressions who called themselves patriots, my argument to you is there's nothing more patriotic than having a laugh. That's what it means to be English. To sit around, go, well, this is shit. What are we going to do where we're going to crack a joke and have a laugh about it? That's what it actually means to be English. When people talk about what it means to be English, it's a bit, it's a sense of humor, it's banter, it's having a laugh. Because that's how you cope.

[Emma]

Gallows humor.

[Francis Foster]

Gallows humor. Because what, what are you going to do if you're not going to laugh? You'll cry. That's what we always hear. It's, particularly in the uk, you have a laugh for your cry.

[Emma]

And crying is not productive.

[Francis Foster]

Yeah, it's not productive. And so you go, look, I realize things are bad. I realize things from an economic, from a societal, from a cultural position are pretty bleak. But sitting around po faced and just moaning about it ain't gonna change anything. So I think humor is important. I think it's a safety valve. I think it's something that we need to do. And humor is a very powerful way of addressing things that people feel that they can't really do in a serious way. That's why the first thing that all dictators do when they come to power is, is they kill the comedians because they know how powerful comedy is. Comedy in the way, is the most powerful thing because if you make a particularly accurate jibe or joke about a sacred or cultural cow, that's far more powerful than any well articulated political point. So I would say to those people, humor is intrinsic. It's a highly important part of what it means to be English or what it means to be British. It's who we are, it's how we've always communicated. And if you think that sitting around po faced and moaning is going to change anything, and I hate to break it to you, it ain't. So stop whinging either. Do something, whatever it is, get up off your ass. And to those people who are having a laugh and trying to make light of it, at least they're putting a smile on people's faces.

[Emma]

That is the place to end, isn't it? Thank you Frances Foster so much for your time. Everyone go out and buy Uneducated My life as a teacher and why you should never become one we're going to go over to members content now and continue this chat, so if you're not a member already you can have a little look in the description box below and become one. Please do like subscribe. Let us know what you think in the comments. Thank you for watching and we will see you next time.

[Francis Foster]

And if you don't join, you are gay and retarded.

[NCF Announcer]

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[Francis Foster]

It.