Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Episode: A Traditionalist Perspective on Gnosticism with Charles Upton
Host: Jeffrey Mishlove
Guest: Charles Upton
Air Date: February 10, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth discussion between host Jeffrey Mishlove and poet, metaphysician, and traditionalist thinker Charles Upton, focusing on how traditionalism views Gnosticism. Upton shares his personal journey through the traditionalist movement, critiques of perennialism, and explores his reinterpretation of Gnostic ideas through a modern lens. The conversation blends intellectual history, personal anecdotes, and metaphysical analysis, offering a rare critique and synthesis of esoteric and mainstream spiritual perspectives.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Traditionalism and Its Roots

• Definition and Historical Background:

  • Upton discusses traditionalism as a school of thought initiated by René Guénon and Ananda K. Coomaraswamy, later developed by figures like Frithjof Schuon and Martin Lings.
  • The movement emphasizes the existence of a “primordial tradition” and the “transcendent unity of religions”—the idea that every authentic spiritual tradition reflects the same ultimate truth, expressed in different forms.
  • Traditionalism arose in part as a corrective against the rootless spiritual seeking and syncretism characteristic of the 1960s.

• Critique of Perennialism and Institutionalization:

  • Upton explains that while perennialist thinking was initially liberating, it eventually ossified into a sort of spiritual elitism.
  • Quote: “Only a few will understand these principles, and we are those few. And so we are the club. And either you’re in the club or you’re not...” (46:25)

2. Gnosticism from the Traditionalist Perspective

• Traditionalist Stance:

  • Gnosticism is generally viewed as “incorrect and very often... a heresy” within traditionalist thought, particularly in Christianity (15:24).
  • However, figures like Schuon sometimes offered sympathetic takeaways, albeit inconsistently.

• Relevance to Modern Alienation:

  • Upton draws parallels between the Gnostic concept of the world as a “cosmic prison” and contemporary social, psychological, and environmental feelings of alienation.
  • Quote: “It’s a cosmic prison. And that isn’t true. But it’s the way a lot of people feel nowadays, socially and... environmentally... how did I get stuck in this weird world?” (15:12)

3. The Central Gnostic Myth and Its Psychological Reinterpretation

• Classic Gnostic Narrative:

  • The notion of the universe being created by an “evil demiurge” and ruled by archons is recounted as core to Gnostic myth.
  • Upton acknowledges its power as a metaphor for modern malaise.

• Ego as Demiurge:

  • Upton’s reinterpretation: the demiurge symbolizes the ego, and the archons are psychological/social forces arising from egoic distortion.
  • Quote: “The evil demiurge that creates a false universe is the ego. Ah, that was it. That was my basic... reinterpretation of Gnosticism.” (19:53)

4. The Modern Gnostic System: Four Archons

• The Four Archons (explained 28:28-36:50):

  • Law: Imposed, artificial order; emblematic of oppressive external structures.
  • Selfhood: Rebellious self-assertion, ego-driven identity.
  • Chaos: Loss of all form, dissolution, self-indulgence.
  • Fate: Blind inevitability, typified by social stereotyping and compulsive morality.

• Each is a distortion of a divine quality—where ego misunderstands or veils the divine, creating psychic imbalance.

  • Quote: “[These are] four basic misperceptions of the nature of God that... all of our problems come from.” (36:50)

5. Dynamics Between the Archons

• Mutual Transformation and Collusion:
  • The archons aren’t isolated; each leads to the emergence of the others in social and psychological life.
  • Quote: “They’re all working together. They’re in collusion with one another... Each will turn into another.” (38:07)

6. Accepting Fate vs. Resignation

• Philosophical Distinction:
  • Accepting fate can be providential if seen as alignment with divine will, rather than passive resignation (41:17-43:49).
  • Quote: “If you accept your fate with a beaten resignation, that’s not going to do you any good any more than rebelling against it is going to do you any good.” (43:08)

7. Value in Gnosticism’s Critique of the World

• Not to be taken literally, but also not ignored:
  • Upton argues that while the Gnostic cosmos isn’t literally true, its mythos resonates with modern alienation and deserves thoughtful engagement (43:49-45:45).

8. The Fate of Traditionalism & Future Directions

• Reflection on the Movement’s Arc:
  • Upton sees the traditionalist movement as largely past its prime, having become insular, but its principles, which he continues to uphold, remain vital (46:08-48:47).
• Mention of Contemporary Thinkers:
  • New voices—Jonathan Pageau, John Vervaeke, Paul Kingsnorth, and others—are seen as heirs to these perennial questions, engaging creatively with the symbolic and spiritual predicament of our era (48:47-56:45).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Artistic and Spiritual Discipline:

  • “My philosophical nature was necessary to contain my poetic nature and let it develop... poetry can run all over the map.” (04:49)

• On the Death and Legacy of Traditionalism:

  • “They truly exquisitely expressed metaphysical principles like few writers have ever done. So they said, now we got it. That's perfect. Okay, stop.” (46:25)

• On Gnostic Psychology:

  • “Did they take that stuff literally or was that their way of speaking of the dynamics of the ego? We don't know that. But in any case, that's what I think they were really up to, whether they knew it or not.” (19:53)

• Blake as a Modern Gnostic:

  • “Blake was the closest thing to a Dante of Gnosticism, really... he saw nature as all vision, you know, including sexuality and everything we identify with the body and physical life.” (21:47)

• Contemporary Relevance of Gnostic Sentiments:

  • “If it feels like that to so many people, why is this? And what is the significance of Gnosticism in relation to this?” (15:24)

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------| | 03:53 | Framing the conversation: Traditionalism defined | | 04:49 | Philosophical vs. poetic nature in spiritual growth | | 11:56 | Critiques of perennialism and traditionalist movement | | 15:24 | Gnosticism as heresy in traditionalism | | 19:53 | The evil demiurge as the ego (key reinterpretation) | | 21:47 | William Blake and Philip K. Dick as modern Gnostics | | 28:26 | Four archons: Law, Selfhood, Chaos, Fate | | 36:50 | Misperceptions, egoic distortion, and social pathology | | 38:07 | Dynamics and collusion of archons | | 41:35 | Accepting fate: resignation or providence? | | 43:49 | Gnosticism’s relevance for modern alienation | | 46:08 | The decline and legacy of traditionalism | | 48:47 | New intellectual movements and vital figures | | 56:48 | Organic integration in thinkers like Jonathan Pageau |

Tone and Language

• The conversation is reflective, scholarly, and sometimes wryly humorous, characteristic of both seasoned seekers of wisdom and literary minds.
• Frequent use of vivid metaphor and personal anecdote makes advanced metaphysical ideas accessible and grounded.
• Upton’s perspective is both critical and appreciative—delineating heresy and truth without dogmatic severity.

Conclusion

This episode offers a thoughtful and nuanced exploration of Gnosticism through the lens of traditionalist thought. Charles Upton brings forward the ongoing tension between myth, psychology, and tradition, providing listeners with both a critique and a revitalization of these ancient streams of thought. The dialogue is especially valuable for those interested in perennial philosophy, depth psychology, and the relevance of esoteric traditions in today's world.

Recommended For:

• Listeners interested in metaphysics, perennial philosophy, Gnosticism, spiritual history, and intellectual movements bridging the ancient and modern worlds.
• Anyone seeking a framework to understand contemporary spiritual malaise and the enduring value of tradition.
• Fans of William Blake, Philip K. Dick, and thinkers spanning poetic, philosophical, and psychological disciplines.

Prepared using original speaker language and tone, for a comprehensive and accessible understanding of the episode’s content.