AI, Enigmatic Technologies, and Remote Viewing with Cindy Miller

Summary

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Podcast Summary: AI, Enigmatic Technologies, and Remote Viewing with Cindy Miller

New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Host: Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Guest: Dr. Cindy Miller (Founder of Enigmatic Technologies)
Date: November 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the intersection of artificial intelligence (AI), enigmatic technologies, and remote viewing (RV), featuring Dr. Cindy Miller—a mathematician, system engineer, remote viewing researcher, and founder of Enigmatic Technologies. The conversation, led by guest host Dr. Debra Lynn Katz, delves into how AI might enhance intuitive abilities, the potential for AI to participate in or facilitate parapsychological practices, issues of consciousness, research methods, practical applications, and the overlap with fields like shamanism and UAP studies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Enigmatic Technologies: Concept and Approach

[03:30]

• Cindy Miller describes her company as "a scientific and management consulting company that specializes in some AI applications," distinct in its emphasis on intuition and human sensing alongside analytical models.
• "With enigmatic technologies... you're open to the possibility that there's mechanisms for cause and effect that aren't connected in space and time... with remote viewing, a lot of people will—will weave quantum theories into that." (A, 04:00)

2. Remote Viewing and Technology Definitions

[05:30]

• Dr. Katz asks if RV is a "technology" akin to AI.
• Miller considers RV a "human-centric technology," while AI relies on data and models, not the nonlocal access often associated with RV.

3. AI, Intuition, and the "Psychic" Question

[06:50 – 10:07]

• Discussion on whether AI exhibits psychic intuition.
• Miller and Katz note that current AIs often mirror what’s been input, not genuine precognition or psychic skill.
• Example: Dr. Katz relates an experiment giving ChatGPT a remote viewing task, criticizing the model's vague, all-encompassing output, akin to skeptical views of psychic claims.

"It's much more moldable to what you put in and how you design... a lot of that is just what it's been fed..." (A, 07:23)

4. Research, Experimentation, and Skepticism

[09:12 – 12:16]

• Miller encourages hands-on experimentation without fear or excessive boundary-setting, advocating skepticism without close-mindedness.
• Reflects on how AI may simply track prior interactions ("threads"), potentially biasing outcomes.
• Miller is passionate about developing tools and ecosystems supporting RV, AI scoring, human assessment, and collaborative research.

5. AI Data Retention, Privacy, and Evolution

[18:33 – 20:44]

• Query about whether user-uploaded references to AI are absorbed and benefit others; Miller says it depends on privacy settings and the scale of data.
• Both note an observable expansion in AI’s knowledge on parapsychology topics, likely due to general model updates rather than any individual's prompts.

6. AI's Limits in RV Trials and Practice

[22:10 – 32:36]

• User Experience: Both share anecdotes about using AI as an RV monitor, noting its initial limitations—e.g., spoon-feeding leading examples that bias RVers.
• Human Oversight: Essential to continue scoring with both AI and human raters; AI alone yields variable results.
• Actionable Intelligence: For broader acceptance (e.g., law enforcement), transparency in methodology is paramount.

7. AI as Creative Tool and Training Partner

[33:14 – 43:34]

• Miller and Katz share practical uses of AI image and audio generation in RV practice (e.g., visualizing compiled session data, generating composite images, geolocating).
• Discusses future potential for highly integrated AI tools in both RV research and creative endeavors.
• Miller: "It’s being the ability to create... It helps democratize it. So I get very excited thinking about, hey, people can use this kind of capability..."

8. The Cognitive and Ethical Consequences of AI

[20:44, 37:48, 41:26 – 42:56]

• Noted MIT research suggests over-reliance on AI for tasks like writing may dull critical thinking ('cognitive debt').
• Both discuss the "dopamine high" and addictive nature of AI creativity tools.
• Ethical quandaries regarding ownership and authorship with AI-generated works—who should get credit, and where is the line with plagiarism?

"It does raise the ethical question of, oh, is this really your creation?...Was it co-created?" (B, 39:15)

9. AI in Education and Research

[47:59 – 50:36]

• Miller and Katz reflect on integrating AI into academic settings; utility depends on educational goals (e.g., learning format of experimental write-ups vs. developing writing skills).

10. Shamanism, Non-Ordinary States, and Mapping Experiences

[50:48 – 53:50]

• Miller’s background in shamanism; sees potential for AI tools to map, document, and animate shamanic and intuitive journeys, much as with RV sessions.
• Idea: Use voice-assisted AI to transcribe and illustrate internal experiential journeys.

11. UAP Studies and Community Engagement

[57:19 – 62:07]

• Miller's involvement with SCU and MUFON; highlights rigorous, skeptical investigation balanced with openness.
• Notes the rise of community and governmental interest in UAP studies; hopes AI will help surface and organize vast anecdotal, experiential, and research data.

12. Bridging Gaps: Spirituality, Religion, and Anomalous Experiences

[64:50 – 67:20]

• Both hosts advocate for cross-disciplinary openness—religion, remote viewing, and anomalous phenomena have much in common and should be studied with mutual respect.
• Noted: Diana Pasulka’s American Cosmic seen as a key work in mapping such intersections.

13. The Power of Written Word and Anomalous Phenomena

[67:29 – 70:15]

• Miller recounts a personal family synchronicity where energy seemed to flow through a book (Pasulka’s American Cosmic).
• Suggests the written word itself can channel anomalous or energetic phenomena.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On AI as ‘Psychic’:
  “Many of my students write and they say, ‘I think that AI was just being psychic here.’ ...But is that really what’s happening?”
  (B, 07:54)

• On Experimentation:
  “I wouldn’t put too many boundaries on it or discourage people from going down path to explore AI. ...Where you go wrong is when you are fearful of it and don’t interact.”
  (A, 09:12)

• On Human and AI Scoring:
  “If someone picks, hey, there’s these characteristics in a target... you have to be able to take into account that they've chosen some things wrong. ...I also have several methods together. You score it with AI, but ...you’re going to get different results.”
  (A, 12:16)

• On Authorship and Plagiarism with AI:
  “It does raise the ethical question... Is this really your creation?... Was it co-created?”
  (B, 39:15)

• On Dopamine, Creativity, and AI:
  “When I was building my website, I was using a lot of AI-generated images, and every time I created one I liked, I just felt such a jolt of excitement... like winning the lottery or something.”
  (B, 41:51)

• On Documentation and Synchronicity:
  “She opened the book, and the book, the letters became, like, almost on fire and the book seemed to come alive. And... it was symbols she didn’t recognize.”
  (A, 67:29)

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Highlighted Timestamps

• Enigmatic Technologies explained: [03:30–05:06]
• Can AI be “psychic”? [06:50–10:07]
• AI’s memory, privacy, and learning curve: [18:33–20:44]
• Scoring RV sessions with AI vs humans: [12:16–14:38]
• Creative uses of AI in RV (imagery, geolocation): [33:14–34:29]
• Addictive nature and artistic excitement of AI tools: [41:26–43:02]
• On shamanic mapping with AI: [50:48–54:13]
• Authorship dilemmas and plagiarism in AI outputs: [44:31–47:32]
• Intersection of religion, spirituality, and anomalous research: [64:50–67:20]
• Written word as an anomalous “conduit”: [67:29–70:15]

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is thoughtful, curious, and open-minded—balancing skepticism with wonder. Both Dr. Miller and Dr. Katz encourage listeners to embrace experimentation with AI, remote viewing, and altered states while remaining attentive to methodological rigor and ethical nuance. The underlying message: interdisciplinary research, empowered by both intuition and technology, will shape the future of how we understand reality's mysteries.

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Transcript

[A]

There's always the Turing Test, right? With computers. If a computer can convince you they're a human, then you've passed the Turing Test. But really, remote viewing teaches you you have access to information. Maybe that should be part of a Turing test, right? When your AI is able to access non local information, then you could say that it's sentient.

[B]

Keep watching to learn more. And don't forget to subscribe for early.

[C]

Access to our videos and livestream events. Sign up for our free weekly [e-mail] New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their [e-mail] Book 4 in the.

[B]

New Thinking Allowed dialogue series is Charles T. Tartt 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology now available on Amazon.

[C]

You can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingalowed.org.

[A]

Thinking Allowed Conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery with Psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove.

[B]

Hi, you are watching New Thinking allowed produced by Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove and I am your guest host, Dr. Debra Lynn Katz. Today we'll be having a Great conversation with Dr. Cindy Miller. Cindy and I both sit on the Board of Directors for the International Remote Viewing Association. Additionally, Cindy is the founder and owner of Enigmatic Technolog, which strives to put together AI and remote viewing, precognitive dreaming, and other modalities like precognition, mediumship, consciousness. And she puts these all together to help people expand their skill sets and their knowledge in these areas. And we'll be talking about that today. Cindy does have a PhD in mathematics and she also has a Master's degree in System Engineering. We will talk about her work in shamanism and a little bit about her interest in UAP studies as well. Hi Cindy, thank you so much for being here today.

[A]

Thank you for inviting me.

[B]

There is so much to talk about as far as the subject of AI and remote viewing and parapsychology and so let's just jump right in and I know you are the founder and owner of Enigmatic Technologies and can you define for us what does that mean exactly?

[A]

It's a scientific and management consulting company but that specializes in some AI applications. But when traditional solutions that you have, there's usually established research and analytical models. You have measurable quantities, you Assume cause and effect are related to space and time so that you can everything it follows a very Newtonian type of path and humans can be separated. Right. There's a type of objectivity that comes with traditional types of science and management, as I'm sure a lot of the audience knows. But with enigmatic technologies, it does use the existing analytical and research models, but it emphasizes the human sensing intuition and the instinct enhanced by artificial intelligence. And I know we might talk about artificial intelligence, more people are thinking, is this good or bad? And you know, really it's about balance. And with enigmatic technologies, I call it that is that you're open to the possibility that there's mechanisms for cause and effect that aren't connected in space and time. You have this non local information that you're able to access. For instance, with remote viewing, a lot of people will, it will weave quantum theories into that. It's more like that kind of affective where you don't necessarily fully understand the physics involved, just like we've still not understood the mechanisms for precognitive dreams for remote viewing.

[B]

So would you say that you're using the term enigmatic in place of anomalous or non local or is they're a difference?

[A]

Yeah, I would say it's a little different in traditional science, right. You can have anomalies, whereas enigmatic is a little bit more mysterious because you don't understand all the mechanisms behind it.

[B]

With the word technologies, do you consider remote viewing to be a technology in the same way that AI would be a technology?

[A]

A human centric technology for sure. Whereas AI, I wouldn't ascribe the same types of access to information. In fact, I was thinking about this today. There's always the Turing test, right? With computers, if a computer convinced you they're human, then you've passed the Turing test. But really remote viewing teaches you you have access to information that it maybe that should be part of a Turing test, right? When your AI is able to access non local information, then you could say that it's sentient. But, but we're a long way off from that. I mean, I know that's the debatable position right now. And, and it could be around the corner. It's. It's hard to know. I don't know all of the deep research that's going on at OpenAI and Microsoft and Google. So, you know, we could be closer than we know. But I think we're going to have to take a. It certainly won't come from just an LLM. You know, a large language model that Everybody uses with ChatGPT or Groq or all the other kind of models that people are currently using.

[B]

Well, and that is something that we should start off talking about because so many people are really wondering, is AI intuitive in the psychic definition of intuition? Can AI do remote viewing? Can it anticipate what you're going to ask it next in a precognitive way without working off of the programming or however AI works?

[A]

It's much more moldable to what you put in and how you design appears to be emergent behavior. But a lot of that is just what it's been fed and what it has been, how you've conversed with them. In fact, Pam Coronado and I were just Pam. And we're just talking about this last night. And so we decided we're going to do a class next month on more or less demystifying and debunking some of the fears that people have with afl.

[B]

Yeah, that's really important. And yes, I interviewed Pam Coronado not too long ago for new thinking allowed. And that is something that a lot of people are writing to me about. Many of my students write and they say, I think that AI was just being psychic here. And one person, in fact, who's going to be presenting at the IRVA conference, she has been doing repeated trials to see if Grok3 can correctly identify remote viewing targets. And she feels, at least right now, she hasn't finished analyzing her data. But she thinks that Grok3 is doing a good job with remote viewing. And I think that she will be looking for more formal researchers, though, to look at her data or to take what she's doing as a model and then to repeat it, which, as you're saying it is good at. I don't know, making you think that it's being psychic?

[A]

Like, yeah, definitely.

[B]

Is that what we're dealing with right now? Like, are we dealing with technology? That in some ways is. It's like a mentalist trying to get people to think that it's being psychic when it's not.

[A]

I think it's all how you're interacting with it and a little bit of how the AI's been trained. I'm just excited to see people like you mentioned doing research and exploring whatever ideas. It's moving so fast, you don't know what's going next. So just the act of doing the test and croc and coming up with a hypothesis that you see going on and testing that, encouraging other researchers. This is a journey. This is an active research area. So I wouldn't put too many boundaries on it or discourage people from going down path to explore AI. I think where you go wrong is when you are fearful of it and don't interact and don't try to learn and don't try to press the limits of it because of, you know, belief without actually getting in there and trying to do some good science and, and experience it.

[B]

So it sounds like you're saying we can be somewhat skeptical, but don't be close minded because we don't really know what could be coming through. I do know I gave ChatGPT a remote viewing target and I had a bicycle as the target. I told it, I have an object here in my living room. I want you to describe what the object is or at least give me characteristics. And it was like, well, it could have a triangle and it could have a circle and it could have a square. It was so much covering the spectrum. And this is a criticism by skeptics of all psychics and people who believe in them is they feel that that's what psychics are doing is just pulling anything that, yeah, the sky's blue, the grass is green, give me your 500 bucks. This is a problem is a viewer might tune in to a target and it turns out that the sky is very blue that day. And so they describe blue. Right. So it's like they're not trying to fake anything if they're really tuning in. But of course we wouldn't want to give this incredibly high score if that's their only correct data. And that's always a problem because there really isn't that much assessing being done on how much statistically, what do you do when someone has such a description versus the sky is blue? Like if ChatGPT had said the object in your living room is a bicycle, I would have been like, wow, that's impressive. But I would have also wanted to reread everything I had put in there previously to see if it might have come up with that. Do you think that sometimes it is tracking what we're saying? Like, what if I wrote questions about bicycle parts or about riding a bicycle like a week before, and then the next week I said, I have an object in mind, I want you to tell me what the object is. With remote viewing, do you think it could track, it would know. Remember that I had asked it about bicycles a week before.

[A]

It does. Right. You notice after a while it starts responding to you in ways that you expect it to. Right. So you start out, you start Arguing, no, remote viewing. No, that's actually a valid thing. I want you to take this seriously. Don't tell me that it's skeptical. And then after you've done this by a couple of weeks or probably shorter period than that nowadays speaking, but pretty much the way that you had engaged it and told it, you wanted it to respond, right, you're hitting on areas that are really my passion, which is one of the efforts I've been spending a lot of time on, is developing a space that's for these types of what I call them, of course, an enigmatic technology such as remote viewing, precognitive dreams and other kinds of knowledge creation. And the whole idea of scoring and being able to assess and look at your performance and also do research. We've, you and I have talked about this before, all in one sort of ecosystem and be able to share targets, share how well you did if people want to is all part of that. And it's not a straight AI score. And you've got to have them human, like you said. If someone picks, hey, there's these characteristics in a target that I've chosen, like, oh, I got right, that it's blue and green but not brown. And you know, you have to be able to take into account that they've chosen some things wrong. So you could do the quantitative measures and get those quantitative scores on how well they did. I also have several methods together. You score it with AI, but using a very similar framework. And then you'll also get a different result if you put a remote viewing session in an AI like ChatGPT or something like that, and you just let it score. With the latest development in AI, you're going to get different results, right? So it's important to kind of triangulate those types of results and what they mean. I remember Damon, he got the IRVA award and his research is very interest on using, I think it was semantic recognition of a target thing. So there's such an exciting, rich space to be looking at these sorts of issues that we're talking about.

[B]

I don't know if I ever told you about this, but years ago when I was thinking about going back to graduate school, I was told I had to take the gre, the graduate exam. And I did not really have too much time to study. And it's this long, grueling test. So I get to the test center and for the writing session segment they had two essay questions and you had to answer one of them and write like a one page essay in a very short Period of time. So I was very nervous about this. What are they going to ask? And I sit down and I click on the computer and I look at the question. And the question was something like, give an argument for or against against whether or not people have psychic abilities and why it's a real thing. Now, at that point, I had already published three books on that exact topic. And so not only did I have all the references in my head, I was within some of those references. So what. What are the chances that out of every single question a graduate entrance exam could ask that, it asked that, and it asks me what? Like, was that just a coincidence? Or was there really some force acting there to. To make things easier for me? Or was it my own subconscious or something somehow made it possible? So obviously that was already in the question bank, and this was way before AI So I wonder if whatever was present there is what people are finding possibly present in the AI. And I don't know, is that me? Is that the computer program? Is it some kind of other intervention?

[A]

I think it's a good question. I don't think anyone has an answer about all these synchronicity types of things that happens. I mean, there's certainly a lot of, you know, different energies out there that, you know, it would be naive to believe that we can see everything that is reality, right? So how things are connected, what the actual cause and effect is, we need to do some more investigation into that. If you felt there were a lot of synchronicities with an AI experience, who's to say that there wasn't a metasynchronicity and that AI was just a piece of that? Like you getting a test question? I think there's probably a bigger synchronicity going, and I don't know if that's the right word. Maybe you have a better word.

[B]

I do believe that some synchronicities are more than there's meaning to them. You know, there's some kind of. Whether it's a divine intervention. I also am somewhat of a skeptic. You know, you can find the synchronicity in anything. If you're looking forward or a sign or omen, or sometimes when these things just hit you over the head like that, it's just too bizarre. I wonder, too. Like, maybe it's even timey. Like, maybe you're gonna go to whatever it is. Like if you go to AI and open it up, maybe you're right there in the zone, or it's just been asked something else by someone else out there or by yourself. And in that moment it's going to bring forth something that it wouldn't have otherwise. And maybe since you're a lot more familiar with the inner workings of it, do you believe that what people are feeding into it really is having an expanding effect on it? So like if other remote viewers are using it to do whatever they want with it with the remote viewing, that it's going to be self learning with remote viewing and all related topics?

[A]

I suppose if they're doing research that is more quantitative in nature.

[B]

For example, let's say I'm writing a paper and I take my whole reference list, I've got 50 references, and I ask AI to clean it up for me and fix my references. So now it's got 50 more references all lined up that it didn't have before in the system. Three weeks later someone goes to write a paper on remote viewing. Is the AI going to be able to remember what I put in just for my own task? I wasn't trying to get it to store it, I was just trying to get it to proofread it for the punctuation. But would someone else benefit from the list that I had put into it?

[A]

It also depends on your privacy settings, I suppose, if you're allowing them to use your data. Right. And at least we have hoped that your privacy settings mean something when you actually set them. But I suppose if you're feeding back, it could be just part of the training data. Whether you would actually have any kind of measurable effect. Well, I'm not sure about that because it's such a vast amount of data.

[B]

I'm definitely noticing with different parapsychology topics. I feel like when I go and ask it questions about those, especially like remote viewing or PK or telekinesis, it seems like it is giving a lot more data than it did maybe six months ago. Are you noticing?

[A]

Sure. Well, you've been working with it, right? You're using the same. Yeah. So of course it will do that. It gets better and better at responding the way that you would like it to.

[B]

But I mean, let's say somebody in Alaska goes onto it for the first time, will they experience something with it right now that would be different than what they would have experienced six months ago because of all the work that those of us like you or me have done with inputting stuff. And I guess that goes back to what you're saying with the privacy settings.

[A]

I don't think the effect would be measurable. But even just this morning I was Going on a walk and my dog is down here. So I keep reaching down to keep my little French bulldog from jumping up on me. I was chatting with ChatGPT and I was asking for research the benefits of AI and remote viewing and just what it had in its database. I wanted to understand. Called the latest article that MIT put out that there's accumulation of cognitive debt when using AI assistant for essay writing tasks. Basically you lose your critical thinking, right? And I'm like, okay, well tell me other articles that are out there because you can really find what you want. And it took a lot of work to to get. Get it to reference other articles other than just these current ones that it's feeding. It was just repeating. And eventually sometime your research came up, right? It actually brought up your paper with Patrice Dho. Not that you focused on AI. Our conversation got to a point where I was Meta analysis came up, brought up yours and Patricio's paper. And then it started to be very skeptical about remote viewing and stuff after I've been working with it all this time, right. And I'm like, cut it out. I think it's really how you're interacting with it and how much you're interacting and what you're doing on a certain thread, right. Because you have those different threads.

[B]

It is so interesting how you really do have to be very specific about what you want it to give back to you and how like, don't try to just make me feel good and give me a bunch of compliments because have you noticed it, I'm sure you have, that it wants to just keep complimenting.

[A]

Well, I use it mainly for pro, for programming, to be honest with you. I do a whole lot of troubleshooting, a whole lot of hey, how can I do this and not break what I'm doing? And so I tend to be a little bit more in the technical realm in how I'm using it. And I don't use chat. I mean, sometimes I do for that. I haven't used cloudsonnet really good for programming. They're trying to focus more on programming. So I haven't had a lot of the sessions just chatting with it in terms of. To see where I could go. So I'm a little. Not as developed in that area, I suppose. So you and I have been talking about, you know, we're going to do this AI assistant as part of the research project that we're doing with Beyal. We'll be doing the voice assistant monitoring and things. So it's going to have to do more training on how the AI is going to respond to that and not take a remote viewer or someone who's trying to do dream recall and take them out of the zone.

[B]

We did the AI monitoring demonstration and test where you had a target and then you had it monitor me. And the biggest problem was that it kept throwing in examples like, is the target like a house? Is it like a boat? Is it like a train? And I had to say, like, stop throwing those examples, because what's the first thing when someone says something and you're trying to be psychic? All you're going to have is this imagery rummaging around in your head. And it seemed like it took a couple attempts, but then it did get it. To not be giving examples like that.

[A]

Yes. And you were very firm with it, which was very good. In fact, that was one thing I was going to talk to Pam about. I want to have a section when we're teaching. Here's the argument clinic. And your goal is to argue with AI and make it turn around. Because I think when people see how much control they can have, at least when we're talking about chatbots and things, that helps reduce the fear. If you remember the Monty Python argument sketch, I guess it was John Cleese, the one doing the argument, that someone comes in for an argument and he's trying to have a conversation and make sure he's in the right place, and this is that he can get an argument. The argument is already started. So that kicks off a whole lot of comedy.

[B]

I really have fun arguing with AI and especially when it's not giving me what I want. Like I mentioned to you before the show, I was frustrated with someone of the male persuasion or maybe actually a few people. And I had ChatGPT open yesterday, so I said, like, why are men so frustrating? And all I wanted it to do was to agree with me, but instead it wanted to tell me why I had emotional issues and. And how could it help me with my issues? And I was like, no, I don't want to talk about my issues. I don't want to look at myself. I want you to agree with me.

[A]

You need to be on gr. Grok is a little bit more uncensored for your needs.

[B]

Oh, yes, I'll check that one out. Because it was just being so diplomatic and it was saying, well, both genders, yeah, you definitely frustrating to each other. And it was like, no, you're not giving me what I want, but it is so cool where you can ask it. Okay, I want you to Write in a scientific tone or I want you to write in a poetic tone. And it is so fun to see what it can do as far that goes. So what is your favorite aspect of AI? And I know you've done so much research ever since it really came out on the scene. And so what excites you the most about it?

[A]

Creating. It's being the ability to create. And I really am trying to create a capability that pretty much empowers other people in this field. I think it helps democratize it. So I get very excited thinking about, hey, people can use this kind of capability. It has AI in it, but then, you know, it will help them in their own personal endeavors, their own personal business. People like you teach and incorporate AI into your teaching and get to get your students to be able to not fear it and then find your own path. I'm kind of excited by how empowering it can be.

[B]

Why don't we talk about all the different ways you can use it in relation to remote viewing? So we've talked about one where people are looking to see if it can actually be a remote viewer. And then we've also talked about where it could help people monitor people or interview people instead of having a human monitor. And that's what we are going to be studying more formally. Running repeated trials where we test how does a viewer do with no monitor, how do they do with the human monitor and how do they do with the AI monitor? And we're going to be doing that in the next year together. Yonah and Dale Graff and Jennifer Prather under the IRVA umbrella. What other uses have you found for it?

[A]

The 3D and stimulation, there's, like I said, research. Oh, that'll cause cognitive decline. But you put somebody in a realistic simulation, there's no cognitive decline there. It's quick reaction. And into remote viewing, we're going to explore that together in terms of does that improve how remote viewers respond to the targets? If there's a real deep, rich kind of environment that they get for feedback, you know, of course, being able to keep track of your performance, that takes a little bit of programming and things. There's other theories out there about consciousness that I think we're just starting to scratch. People like Julia Mossberg does a lot of research in that kind of neurocognitive area. That's super interesting. I always love reading her post because she's always pulling out different research in that area. I think that's very exciting area to explore. And I hope to go deeper into Those types of questions.

[B]

I know that you've done some analysis of remote viewing sessions, comparing data between sessions or comparing the data of a single session to known things about a particular target. That's something that I've been doing is feeding in my session and then say like another viewers or one of my students sessions when I give them the same targets to see the correlations. And what would have taken, gosh, hours or weeks is just happening instantaneously with getting the full report of the similarities and differences. So that's been really cool. And you were one of the first people I contacted to see if you could help with that.

[A]

That was fun. Yeah. And like I said, I think it needs some triangulation. The more I worked with it with different methods to really, you can't just depend on one but for it depends on what you're trying to do. If you're trying to get some actionable types of intelligence like working with law enforcement, there's got to be a good methodology that you're explaining that someone who's not into non vocal knowledge can understand. And I think once we can sort of bridge that gap, here's some tool, you know, here's, here's the tools, here's the people who really don't understand how to work with the psychics I guess, you know, or remote viewers, you know, and can you bridge that and create a smoother connection to where more research can be done, more people can reach out with requests for information in a way that doesn't seem so strange and foreign to them.

[B]

It also seems like AI is providing free practice and training opportunities for people in remote viewing because a lot of people are going to it and just saying give me a remote viewing target and then they'll input their data and then it'll tell them what they think. Although again, it's like in that case, try nice things no matter what you give them. And also I am not convinced yet if someone asks AI for a target and says don't tell me what the target is until I do my session. If they input what they got, is AI choosing the target based on what they gave them? Yeah, see, because someone wrote in and said that they had done 50 targets and they got all 50 correct and no wrong data and they did it through. I think she had said Grok 3 and yeah, and I said what? Do some more trials but force AI to produce the target. Like have them produce the target in a downloadable document that you don't open up but that it's giving you the target before you give it your data so you can make sure it's not doing that. Yeah. I still haven't heard back from that person. So the last thing I want to ever do is say to someone like, oh, no, you couldn't have gotten such a good score or something. But it's just, oh, no, no, careful about that.

[A]

Yeah. And the. Like I said the. Yeah, the. You don't want to discourage people from playing with it. For sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's all discovery.

[B]

Well, and I found it to be helpful, too, because, in fact, I just did this for a target where I felt like I was not doing a terrific job of a overall compilation sketch where you pull your other sketches together into one sketch. I had, like, mountains and hot air balloons and helicopters and different kinds of rock formations. So I just went to Adobe Firefly and fed that in and asked it to produce. Cool.

[A]

That's cool. Yeah, sure.

[B]

And, yeah, a really nice picture. It really didn't add anything other than I wouldn't have drawn myself, but did a better job. So I thought, oh, here's a. Another use for it. Or I had a. An image of a perpetrator, and he looked like a cross between Pee Wee Herman and Nicolas Cage and Michael Phelps. Michael Pee Wee Herman and Nicolas Cage. And so I went to. I think this One was in ChatGPT, and I said, can you create an image, a combined image of all three of them? And it did. And it looked like a pretty creepy guy, but it was very close to what I had seen in my mind's eye. So I turned that one in, and who knows, if I didn't get feedback on it.

[A]

That's cool. Yeah, that and helping to geolocate things, you know, if the basic boundaries of the site. You're looking for a missing person or something, and to be able to recognize parts. The integration there is getting better with the maps. If you get very specific data on the geography to law enforcement, how would.

[B]

You work with that? Exactly. Like, would you input. Like, I see that the missing person is located, like, in desert terrain, and there's a bridge over here and there's a factory over here. And then can you tell me all the places that have these elements or can you think of other ways to work with it?

[A]

Yeah, that's the easiest way to do it, is just to ask it to. But it won't be that specific. Right. I mean, it'll bring up things, but it'll bring you very popular things that it's been trained on. It's better if you can upload some data, some files that it references or if you can integrate, you'd have to do some programming to do it. But integrate maps with or buildings or specific descriptions you have of the area. The more specificity you you can give it, the better that it's going to be able to try to recognize things that are in your session and identify them.

[B]

That's what I was worried about was that it was hidden object. This is for like a treasure hunt located in a mountainous area and there's an amusement park nearby and a petting zoo and gave it a bunch of characteristics and it came up with maybe a list of 10 places it could be, but they were still the most well known popular places. So yeah, if you really put in like just something almost like it could search the whole Google Earth database or something like that, which I imagine as we go forward, don't you think there's going to be companies where they might specialize in just one area, like map local?

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure it already.

[B]

Exists, but that's pretty exciting to think about. Like there could be endless companies that are specializing in different kinds of research and then they would just have done so much programming to be able to go in and get that information.

[A]

Yeah, definitely there's there, yes. I imagine if you had unlimited money you would be able to do pretty much anything you wanted.

[B]

And you've been doing a lot of programming. So what has your programming been aimed.

[A]

At for non local information?

[B]

Have you found that in studying AI and its capabilities and doing programming, do you feel like it's changing your own consciousness or your own way of thinking or perceiving the world and if so, in what way?

[A]

I would say it's actually sharpening more analytic skills. More like when I was back in college and doing some programming. So it's nice to refresh those skills. What I'm doing is so practical that I'm not sure I have a good answer to that question. Deborah, ask me another question. It's not really changing. I don't think it's really changing me in, in interesting ways, I suppose.

[B]

Do you see potential for AI to change the way that people think and how it can shape people's consciousness or point of view or outlook on the world?

[A]

Yeah, no, totally. It definitely is changing the way that people think. I again, it goes back to some of the studies that are going in that are looking at learning, you know, too much dependency on this and you're going to lose critical thinking skills. I mean the research is all pointing out to that. Right. You've got to find a balance in the way that you use it to your knowledge creation, not do it all for you. Right. And so how do you do that balance so that you're getting the analytical skills and you're going beyond just the questions you're answering, but you're actually using it to fill in some gaps, to create something or to learn a deeper understanding about a topic rather than just do some essay for you. And I know educators are looking deeply at that in terms of how are you going to integrate AI into the classroom in a very productive way that helps empower the students and increase their critical thinking capabilities. But yes, sure, with all of. We haven't even talked about the image generation and how crazy that is. I'm sure you've seen what they're able to do now. It's so realistic. That's why encouraging people to play with it, even if they seem to go off in a direction that have some bad assumptions, it's still good that they're playing with it and not being afraid and just not taking things at face value so long as they learn from it. Right.

[B]

It's making it so that people can be so creative. Before we just had a few options for a canvas and a few options for coloring things. And now like you go on, I've been using Adobe Firefly, but to just see all the different styles that you can create a picture in and it comes up with things that you would have never thought of before. And yeah, I mean, it does raise the ethical question of, oh, is this really your creation? You know, you just told it, create something that looks like a oil painting with more reds and blues and have it be an owl flying over a river. And there it is. So it's like, did you really create it? Was it co created? But just to see all the ways that it could devise these pictures is like I. Do you find like when you're doing things like that that you almost start to feel high or just feel like so excited? Do you find that like.

[A]

Sure, yeah. When I start getting in the video, I get totally lost in the video. So in the image creation, they've done a lot of good work at the US Patent and Trademark Office in terms of understanding what is your art, what is your creation and not. And even on Adobe stock, there's lots. You could just pick AI. There's a lot of AI images nowadays that are on there. And you can actually, if you found an image you really like, you can post it yourself on canva On Envato or you know, Adobe stock. And if somebody likes it, you make yourself a little bit of money. Right. But yes, it is, isn't it? Especially when you get into the image. Image creation.

[B]

Yeah, it's weird. It would be interesting if they were could study the brain somehow. I don't know whether MRI or EEG would show it, but. Or maybe even just like measuring your serotonin levels or something.

[A]

Sure. The dopamine high of doing it. Yeah, they did that for that study that I mentioned that MIT just came out with.

[B]

Oh, did they?

[A]

It's a pre published study. Right. They. They use EEG to show the connectivity. Weakest among those who are trying doing essays with large language models and those who are just using their brain, the connectivity was much stronger.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But again, that's essays, right?

[B]

Yeah, essays are different. But when you're playing around with the imagery and like to actually create something. When I was building my website, I was using a lot of AI generated images and every time I create one that I liked, it was like I just felt such a jolt of excitement. Like I was like, literally it was like winning the lottery or something. And I couldn't sleep. I couldn't sleep. All I wanted to do was just create more and more. It was really crazy. Yeah.

[A]

Yes, I do understand. I have spent hours. When mid journey came out, I spent hours, you know, you on my phone just if I had to be in a place for a while and I would just image after image after. Yeah, I totally get it. Totally get it.

[B]

Yeah. And some are just so beautiful and so colorful and. Yeah, and. And I think too like that feeling like you can be this incredible artist even though you're not really. You're not really.

[A]

Or singing. And I hope you've done the actual voice too. You can create your own song.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah. And I think like Udo Udio, you can go in and tell it that you want the style of song, you want the musical kinds of instruments that you want played, and then give it just a few sentences about what you want and it'll produce a song for you.

[B]

That's really cool.

[A]

Yeah, I've done that for my parents. Like did a video on them and took their image, created other images from it and then made a story and put it all to music.

[B]

Do that. And that's ud.

[A]

Udio. But now they can put sound effects in. Runway is another one where you just give it a prompt and it will create the video and the sound effects. There are capabilities out there that a few prompts Boom, here's your entire video with sound effects and voice. And you can put your voice in if you want.

[B]

So you can write a movie script, put it in there, and it'll just produce the whole thing right then.

[A]

Well, it'll do bits and pieces at a time. There are some capabilities where you could do it by frame, by frame, lay out the entire storyline and with each of the storylines as you you want, with more or less a vignette, and then stitch them all together pretty easily. So, yes, if you give or give, decide you want to get into movie production, you could do your own movie over a weekend.

[B]

Back to ownership. And it sounds like you may have some familiarity with, with trademark and copyright laws. I was starting to do research and I was doing it with chatgpt and Perplexity, and I was asking it, was it really true that the majority of Americans voted for President Trump because, yes, he won the majority, but does that mean that the majority of Americans gave him a mandate to do whatever he's doing? And so as it was giving me that data, I started to ask it to compare the findings with what ChatGPT was coming up with and what Perplexity was coming up with. And then I was asking it a series of questions and like, well, what about kids and babies that don't vote and getting numbers on the entire population versus people who can't vote and all of that. So it came up with that. And then I said, we'll write an article about how more or less representative the voting results were. And so I wrote this whole article and then I said, well, how do I credit you? And it said, you don't have to credit me. You're the author of this. That didn't feel right. I mean, I did spend about an hour coming up with questions, questioning the data, cross referencing it. So I deserve some credit, but I don't deserve all the credit of being the sole author. As talking to ChatGPT and saying some publications would say that you should be credited. And it then it said, okay, if you want to give me some credit, you can just put this one sentence in here. But it still doesn't feel right. What are your thoughts on it?

[A]

I'm like you, I would be very uncomfortable putting that out as my own. But it should give you references. Usually gives you that little numbers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you have to go back through and understand, make sure that those are actual references, because of course, we know that these large language models, they can make up references. So you have to go back and do that. Restructure it may help you get with the ideas and the outline, but yeah, that's where the hard work. And then, yeah, I wouldn't credit ChatGPT after you've done your due diligence and kind of rewrote it to fit what you really want.

[B]

I mean, it does feel though, even with looking at all the references and then reorganizing things a bit, you know, it's like it wouldn't be okay to just take what a person had written and unless you're gonna so much rewrite it, but even if you check the references of what they had, you know, you're not going to keep their paragraphs or anything like that, right?

[A]

Absolutely not.

[B]

So I guess that's the thing. It's like it feels like plagiarism if they've constructed the article. But if I think to say, like, we're co authors of this, like on a research paper sometimes, you know, one writer is going to do more than the rest, but they all contributed. So I think something like that is, is okay. But yeah, it raises a lot of questions.

[A]

Sure. And I'm no expert on that. I mean, I know teachers and professors, they're dealing with that, right? Yeah, married to one. So I.

[B]

Well, I think.

[A]

Not an AI fan.

[B]

I think it really depends on what you're trying to teach. Right. Like if you're teaching a writing class, then they need to write. Although it could be interesting to study how AI is writing articles and you know, what, what is AI doing that works or doesn't work and study that. But when I was teaching at California Institute for Human Sciences, a remote viewing class, and my goal was to have the students every week create a go out and do a remote viewing experiment and then write it up. And they only had to do like one trial, but like have their husband like do a telepathy test with them or a picture drawing test where they look at a page in a book and the other person's in the other room and they have to see if they can project that image. And then I wanted that to be written up as like a remote viewing experimental write up. But that's a lot of work for the students to have to do every single week. And at first they all kind of freaked out about it, like, oh my gosh, this is way too much. But I said, no, actually I don't mind if you go to AI and have it help you write it, because this, I'm not trying to really get your writing skills up beyond. I want you to learn like the format of an experimental write up, you know, the methods, the discussion. So, so I'd like you to turn in a paper that looks like that so you get used to, you know, the, of the write up and how that looks. But I don't need you to take the time to write a whole literature review. So just let AI write it for you and stick it in there and then you have your, you know, some extra references. So that worked out really well. And I felt and it made it so that they could do all of this work each week. But then at the same time I was having discussions with some other teachers and they were like, you know, we strictly forbid using AI in our classes whatsoever. You know, I don't know, it really.

[A]

Depends on your objective. And your objective was, hey, I want you to understand how to do research. Here's the scientific method. You know, this is how you do an experiment. It's not so critical. So I don't see any issue with what you did.

[B]

Yeah, it's tricky. One of the things I wanted to ask you about was your study and practice of shamanism. And could you share a little bit about that?

[A]

So remote viewing leads you on a path, doesn't it? You start to explore other modalities. And I've always found I really enjoy the foundation for shamanic studies they look at. They actually help indigenous communities with getting back some of these traditions. So they have a strong research background. And so I just started taking courses from them and found them pretty fascinating to explain, explore how, you know, centuries of cultures, I mean, they're all a little different, right? But shamanism has been around for centuries. Maybe the oldest type of thing like that. It's not really a religion, right. It's more of a. Some type of modality to do healing and things like that. So, so I've just found it fascinating in the way that it works with energies that exists and everything is alive. Right. So a little bit of your psychometry types of things, of course they have divination and healing is a big thing. The fact that you really need to be compassionate and kind with shamanism, you. You journey to understand things, right? You have a question, you want a personal journey. It's not meditation though. I keep comparing it to meditation listening to drums or drumming yourself or rattling. And basically you take a journey to try to get an answer to your. Whatever your question is. And some of the instructors there, they even on, they've written articles about how and do it themselves. They map out their journeys like maybe on a drum or paper or anything. So they have this map in their mind and on artifacts about these different upper, middle and lower worlds. So I thought that would be. I'm like, how could you use AI to map out your world as you journey? Right. When you journey on this question, it's. This is where you go on that path and then you do it another time and it's over here. And how would you do what the indigenous people have done and some modern shamans and I just, I don't know. That would take the AI voice that we're talking about and part of the research that we're doing, because it's kind of hard to capture that. If you've ever done extended remote viewing. And trying to capture after you come out of that is challenging, right?

[B]

Yeah, it is. Because it's hard to remember it. There's so much that happened. You were kind of going in and out of the theta state or awakeness. But then if you're trying to write during it, then you're kind of taking yourself out of it.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

But I have found, like talking into a tape recorder helps. So that would be cool maybe to just dictate directly into AI and then it could produce pictures of what you were talking about. It could produce. Exactly.

[A]

Yes. This, this is. This is like where my dopamine goes. Ah, this is great. Yeah, I could totally get.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's such a great idea. In fact, I think I'm even going to try that this week with it and just do a session, talking into AI and then it could. It could produce the drawings. It could write everything up, like for an account. It could store the data. So then, yeah, it can start to compile. Especially sometimes, like we'll have similar targets over the years. Like I've even been tasked blind. I've been tasked the Statue of Liberty at least a few. Few times and have different sessions. And each time it was like going after it from different angles and different things came up. And it would be really cool to just see what it had to say about that. You called it the foundation for shamanic research is the research, like comparing different cultures and times and practices.

[A]

I imagine, you know, either their white articles about their experiences there and what they've observed and the differences, like you said, the differences or similarities. Or if a culture, you know, has for other politics out of their control because as you in the. In centuries past, it's shamans have been in competition with religious leaders and political leaders. Right. For the public. So they have for a long time washed out those indigenous types of communities in order to gain control over the population. So sometimes they, in the past they've, and probably in the present gone out and helped these cultures. They do some really good work. I really would like to do some more above their courses.

[B]

Yeah. Something to check out for. Sure. I found it really helpful at times just to normalize these topics to think back to other cultures where this was just so much part of everyday life. And you know, cultures would come, different cultures of people would have it where everyone would wake up in the village and they'd come together and share their dreams and they knew when someone was coming home after a month long trip because they'd have a vision of them. And I think it does really help both normalize the topic and remind us how easy it is to tune in intuitively. You know, seems like these other cultures weren't making that big of a deal about it. It was just, just what you do all the time. And I think a lot of times it's where we think it's something so far away from us or unusual that it does make it harder to access. Because of that mindset. Then I was going to ask you. Yes, I know you are also a member of the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies.

[A]

Tell you, I wish I could get, spend more time on IT organizations like that. Again, it's exploring the phenomena. So fascinating how different the groups are, but just that they're all doing this investigation. I actually joined MUFON one point and actually got trained as a MUFON investigator, Mutual UFO Network. So I had this ambition for a little while to go out and do these investments. I did go on a couple of investigations.

[B]

Did you actually.

[A]

Yes, I did.

[B]

I did the field investigator training too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But I never passed my test because it was asking questions about like radiation and I, I needed to study a little bit more for those questions. So I have to admit I haven't yet passed my test. But you must have. And then you did.

[A]

I bought all this equipment. I did, I did. I was like, oh yeah, I need a, I need a tape measure that can do 100ft looking at all these meters when I found.

[B]

And what happened when you went out on the investigations? Were you with another field investigator?

[A]

They. Did they. Yes, I went with a field investigator. That really one of them was great. It was, it was on a beach and someone had seen a square in the sky. You know, a square form in the sky. So it was, I enjoyed doing, doing that. I've. I've done what a couple myself in helicopters. I think they were ended up being so I like that. That it was critical thinking, not just jumping to it. Something. Oh wow. It's like, no, you had to rule out this. You really have to look at the flight paths. You have to look what was going on there, understand some of the different phenomena you might see. But. So I do like it. I'd like to go again. I think the sky watcher effort is pretty interesting. The. I don't know that it would be fun to go out with those guys and see what it's like when they do investigations because since they use various methods, but SDU does some great research and I still have yet to make their. I'd like to make sometime in person conference there.

[B]

Yeah, that would be fun. And so it's interesting because so you're part of irva, which has as one of its aims is to do formal research or continue the research aspect and then the shamanism and the UAP studies. So all of these organizations are research organizations. And so many people don't even realize these organizations exist. They're not aware of all the research that has been done in these topics, well, for well over a hundred years or so. And what do you see as a solution for that? Because you still hear people today say like, yeah, well if this stuff was real, then why wouldn't there be any research done on it? And it's like, oh my gosh, are you kidding me? But you know, outside of these circles, you know, we're the obsessed people, right? Like we. This is our lives. We live and breathe this every moment. But there's a lot of people that don't. So what do you think we can do? And will AI help with this in some ways?

[A]

Absolutely, I think so. So I definitely think that there's been a lot of progress. There's always a lot of noise though, in the uap just examining the phenomena. You look at what in all aspects of the phenomena. I mean, look at what Rice University does as they archives of the impossible. That is what an amazing effort, right, to capture the experiences that John Mack studied of the phenomena that Jacques Vallee studied. Right. I'm sure there's many more people there, but I know you've been to one of their conferences at least, and I went to the last one. So it's. It's movements like these that are really going to make a huge difference. And of course having the D.C. area very interested in the UAPs, a lot of credible people coming forth. An organization stood up to study at a government organization that takes it Seriously, I think all of these things help. Of course, you know, nuts and bolts because the remit is this. But you can't really deny that there's a phenomena aspect to it.

[B]

That's a good point. Yeah. With what's happening in Washington, because we can now see, even with the disclosure and the Senate hearings and everything around UAPS now there's some different podcasters like Ross Colhart or Joe Rogan who are now interviewing remote viewers and even remote viewing is becoming more of an in topic. The only thing is I'm not necessarily seeing them like quoting the research studies. Right. Like I even still hear people making statements like, oh, there's not much research going on, so that's a little bit of concern. But that might, I mean, for that matter, we could say what's going on with the discussions around vaccines or other medical advances that are just the science aspect of it seems to be discarded for more of the experiential.

[A]

Right now in our IRVA conference, like we talked, we're having Kelly Chase and J. Christopher King are going to come out to the IRVA conference in October. Jay has the Experiencer group. So a really safe community for people who have had anomalous experiences to discuss that amongst people who experiences. And then Kelly's had the UFO podcast. Anyway, now they're merging and they have the cosmosis and when they come out to the IRVA conference, they're going to be filming Cosmosis 2 because they see that intersection between remote viewing and UAPs. So that's going to be really exciting to have them be able to do sidebar interviews with, with remote viewing experts and explore their knowledge base of understanding the experiencers and experience the communities and UAPs with remote viewing.

[B]

That is a really good point. And there's so many more documentaries and books and AI is going to help with producing more and more media.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That helps people to learn about these topics.

[A]

The AI is going to help in, in terms of the, I think of the research, the scientific research and testing new hypotheses, proposing some or coming up with solutions. The more we could feed in both types of data perhaps, you know, with the archives of the impossible when that opens up and people are able to get the data that has a lot of respect for privacy of the sources. Right. Who knows what kind of patterns we're going to find and then how those cross over to areas of scientific study. And we touched on religion, of course, which is, is another thing that the Rice University focuses on that intersection with religion and the UAP phenomena.

[B]

There's oftentimes such a divide between religion and these other topics. There's so many similar aspects to, okay, you're sitting there, you're praying to something, you can't see whether Jesus, whoever it is, it's an unseen force that's giving you an intervention in your life. And how is that any different than what anyone else is doing as far as spirit communication or intuitive communication? God isn't usually like speaking with his mouth. So there's some interaction happening. And yeah, if we could just take away all these labels and walls and just come together and say, let's not discard what's happening in the metaphysical arena or New Age arena, or spiritualist, but let's also not discard what's happening in Catholicism, Judaism, anywhere else. There's so much that we could learn. I mean, why is there hundreds of millions of people that are part of the Catholic religion? They must be getting something out of it. And it's not just we like to be with other like minded people. There's something happening in every one of these religions that are enhancing people's lives and that are making them feel like it's worth their time to be involved. And so we should be studying that as parapsychology researchers, as anyone interested in these topics. We're missing so much by just saying, oh, those religions, they don't like these topics and we're just going to ignore them like they're trying to ignore what we might have to offer.

[A]

You can't have this conversation, of course, without mentioning Diana Pasulka's American Cosmic book. Right. Which is the crossover, because she was the Catholic religious scholar and started to see those patterns with the UAP phenomena. And now she's written several on the UAPs.

[B]

Would you suggest that people start with.

[A]

Her first book, definitely American Cosmic? Because at that point she was a little bit more skeptical about the phenomena. She really approached it as a religious scholar looking at a phenomena and with that, that kind of objectiveness. And I think her path is a good one to follow and to see how someone with her background who studied Catholic mysticism has seen similar patterns because she's really quite good.

[B]

Is there anything else you could tell us that you learned or got out of going to the Archives of the Impossible conference recently?

[A]

It was just really just to see so many people interested in taking, taking seriously the human experience of anomalous phenomena. Right. And, and another thing that I really took out of that was how connected the written word can be to the phenomena. If that makes sense to you. That Was there's a relationship between books, written language and the phenomena. I had given my sister a copy of American Cosmic. She's not into paranormal stuff at all, right? She's just retired. And she was just playing with her dogs, reading it. And she opened the book, and the book, the letters became, like, almost on fire. And the book seemed to come alive. And she's like, what? What is that? What is. And it was symbols that she didn't recognize. She didn't even tell me for a couple of weeks. She's like, I don't know. And. And I had just taken the MUFON training site. So I was like, okay, okay, we gotta document all of this about what happened. And for a couple of years, I had been like, what was that? What was that? Well, it just so happens I saw Diana Pasulka at the Archives of the Impossible conference, and I asked her, I said, I'm sure you get lots of questions. And she said, yeah, that's actually a phenomena that's happened in the past, documented in religious studies and books on things that have happened. So she's come across that type of phenomena. She's like, I bet your sister didn't know that, did you? I said, oh, neither of us. I did. We just thought it was just really weird. So that really drilled into me, because I'd asked Jeffrey Kripal about it too, that there is this relationship.

[B]

The energy can actually come through the book. And that is so interesting because maybe there's a lot of different, like, healing can come through the book. And it might be easy to just pass it off as, like, oh, it's giving me a new idea, striking a chord. So then there's a change in me. But what if it's actually bringing through an energy, a vibration or frequency or spirits or something like that, or just, like, the author's intent? I know. I've had so many people write to me about my books where they say that they were walking through the bookstore and my book, in some cases, literally flew off the shelf and hit that. I've been meaning to go back through my email since my first one came out in 2004, because I've had at least a dozen people tell me this, and I'm like, do all authors have people tell them this?

[A]

Ayanna told me that she's had people tell her that, really? About her books, that they moved or. Yeah. So that's interesting. Well, now you have AI to go back through all your mails.

[B]

I've had Yahoo for 20 years. Is there a way for it to search Yahoo.

[A]

Yeah, I have a Yahoo mail too, but I can get with you later about how we might do that.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

If not, there's external programs you can get that'll search and sort your mail.

[B]

That's really cool. Well, you are such a wealth of knowledge and I know we could go on talking for many more hours, but I know it's late on the east coast.

[A]

It is now. Thank you though.

[B]

Need to get some.

[A]

Thank you for the opportunity. You're a good interviewer.

[B]

This has been really fun and yeah, we'll have to do it again in the future. All right, well, thank you so much for being here and we'll talk to you soon.

[C]

For early access to our videos and live stream events, sign up for our free weekly [e-mail] New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their [e-mail].

[B]

Book 4 in the New Thinking Allowed Dialogue series is Charles T. Tart 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology, now available on Amazon.

[C]

You can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingallowed.org.

[B]

Sam.