Podcast Summary: Autopoiesis and the Laws of Form with Terry Marks-Tarlow

Podcast: New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Host: Jeffrey Mishlove
Guest: Dr. Terry Marks-Tarlow, Clinical Psychologist & Author
Date: October 16, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the profound concepts of autopoiesis and the Laws of Form, delving into their implications for understanding consciousness, boundaries, feedback loops, paradox, and the mystical substrate of reality. Dr. Terry Marks-Tarlow, a psychologist deeply versed in fractals, complexity theory, and the philosophy of mathematics, joins host Jeffrey Mishlove to unpack the works of Francisco Varela, Humberto Maturana, and G. Spencer Brown. The discussion journeys through biology, mathematics, philosophy, mysticism, and psychology—revealing how systems self-organize, how distinctions come into being, and why paradox and reentry are central to both consciousness and life itself.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Autopoiesis

• Autopoiesis describes living systems that maintain their own boundaries, reproduce themselves, and keep themselves alive.
  • “Autopoiesis are living systems that maintain their own boundaries and are able to reproduce themselves and keep themselves alive, essentially.” (A, 03:42)
• Marks-Tarlow cautions against a reductionist or materialist interpretation, emphasizing that in Varela and Maturana’s framework, consciousness is the starting point, not just matter.
  • “It starts with consciousness and it starts with observers being part of the system that they're observing.” (A, 06:03)

2. G. Spencer Brown and the Laws of Form

• Laws of Form (1969) is foundational for thinkers interested in the integration of mathematics, consciousness, and boundaries.
  • The essence: Until a distinction or mark is made, there is unity; distinction creates boundaries, observer and observed.
    • “Until you make a distinction or even a mark of some kind, then everything is united. There is no difference between the observer and the observed.” (B, 11:55)
• Marks-Tarlow explains the primal act: marking a distinction, which is the source of both mathematics and consciousness.
  • “Distinguishing this from that or from the perspective of a cell, it would be distinguishing inside from outside…all have to do with drawing distinctions and with making boundaries.” (A, 12:24)
• The process of reentry, where a distinction re-enters itself, enables feedback loops; this parallels how consciousness continually revises its own boundaries.
  • “The observer to redraw and redefine the boundaries. And that's what living systems do all the time. That's what consciousness does all the time.” (A, 14:03)
• The system posits paradox at its core, showing how paradox is generative and foundational to both mathematics and lived experience.
  • “Paradox is a vital, vital part of Spencer Brown's system. And it's a vital reason why it's so applicable to life.” (A, 18:25)

3. The Hierarchy of Reality: Consciousness, Mathematics, and Paradox

• Both Marks-Tarlow and Mishlove explore whether consciousness, mathematics, or information is primary—the Pythagorean and Jungian notions that mathematics may underlie both matter and mind.
  • “I tend to think of matter and information, or matter and consciousness going all the way down. But I'm coming around to consciousness, information as primary.” (A, 10:36)
• Paradox, boundary formation, and feedback loops are shown to operate at all levels—from quantum physics to psychology.
  • “The enlightened mind really embraces paradox, embraces ambiguity.” (A, 31:12)

4. Mystical and Metaphorical Dimensions

• The Ouroboros (the snake eating its own tail) is discussed as a symbol for recursive loops, reentry, paradox, and open systems.
  • “The Ouroboros is kind of the embodiment of paradox and open systems rather than closed systems. So, yes, I think it's a very positive symbol.” (A, 28:39)
• The mystical realization: at the fundamental level, boundaries between self, other, and world dissolve.
  • “At the level of first distinctions, so at that very primitive level, you can't tell the difference between leaving, say, in a circle…and so to me this is a metaphorical proof…of a mystical perspective where self, world and other are indistinguishable.” (A, 36:00)

5. Personal Development and Psychology

• Recursive loops relate to meta-awareness and higher consciousness—seeing oneself seeing oneself.
  • “Self awareness is exactly what you're saying. It's the self looking at being able to analyze the self. Psychology is a recursive loop.” (A, 29:53)
• There are intrinsic limits—blind spots—to consciousness observing itself, which necessitates acceptance of ambiguity and paradox in relationships and the self.
  • “There is a place where we'll hit a blind spot where it's not possible. And in terms of human psychology, we all have blind spots that we will never see.” (A, 31:12)

6. From Biology to Mind: Autopoiesis and Evolution

• Marks-Tarlow recounts Varela’s move from studying single-cell life (inside/outside distinction) to exploring how cognition is similarly embodied and emergent.
  • “He moved his…thinking from the very primitive level of single cells…to looking at higher order cognitive processes in the very same way.” (A, 44:10)
• The Laws of Form and autopoiesis suggest an evolutionary arc: once a boundary (distinction) is drawn, recursive complexity, embodiment, and self-organization can build toward human consciousness.
  • “The idea then is once you've established the first distinction between the inside and the outside, that you've initiated an evolutionary process which…continue to the point where you get human beings.” (B, 49:19)

7. Ultimate Implications and Mystical Realizations

• All distinctions are ultimately arbitrary, observer-dependent, and can dissolve in mystical awareness.
  • “The ultimate implication is that all distinctions are arbitrary and created by the observer.” (B, 37:12)
• Marks-Tarlow connects the structure-fractal/mathematical to spiritual insight:
  • “This system is profound in that sense that it points towards mysticism, towards the validity of that perspective of just open boundaries everywhere and deeply underneath the world of appearances…” (A, 00:00; repeated at 36:41)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Generativity of Paradox:

  “Paradox is generative…reality is filled with paradoxes. And it's really only our reductionist minds that want to get rid of those paradoxes as opposed to the degree to which they're generative.”
  (A, 18:25)

• On Boundaries and Openness:

  “One way of looking at autopoiesis is that the system is structurally open and functionally closed…Structurally, our bodies are completely open to the world...and yet we remain intact in terms of identity.”
  (A, 22:15)

• On Enlightenment as Embracing Paradox:

  “The ability to hold opposites, to hold the paradoxical nature of the world…is a sign of enlightenment, I think.”
  (A, 28:47)

• On the Laws of Form's Mystical Import:

  “At the level of first distinctions…self, world and other are indistinguishable…this system is profound…points toward mysticism, toward the validity of that perspective…”
  (A, 36:00; 00:00)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Defining Autopoiesis: 03:42–05:29
• Laws of Form & Making Distinctions: 06:56–12:24
• Paradox & Reentry Explained: 18:25–20:50
• Symbolism: Ouroboros & Recursive Loops: 24:35–29:53
• Limits of Self-Observation & Blind Spots: 30:47–32:45
• The Mystical Level of First Distinctions: 36:00–37:21
• Mobius Strip, Klein Bottle, and Paradox: 38:10–41:05
• Embodied Cognition & Evolution: 44:10–48:12
• Final Mystical Realizations: 49:49–51:06

Flow & Tone

• The conversation is philosophical, contemplative, and often poetic, reflecting Dr. Marks-Tarlow’s reverence for both the scientific and the mystical dimensions of the subject.
• There is a balance between technical explanation and metaphorical illustration—making it accessible yet deep.

Summary Takeaways

• Autopoiesis and the Laws of Form challenge reductionist views by positing consciousness and distinction-making as fundamental acts that birth reality and its boundaries.
• Paradox, feedback, and reentry are not defects but essential, generative principles of living systems, thought, and consciousness.
• Mystical insights and mathematical logic converge when one realizes all distinctions are provisional, arbitrary, and ultimately dissolvable.
• This philosophical ground has relevance for psychology, cognition, the evolving discussion of AI consciousness, and our day-to-day navigation of boundaries and relationships.

“This system is profound…it points towards mysticism, towards the validity of that perspective of just open boundaries everywhere and deeply underneath the world of appearances and the complexity that the observer builds after a lot of experience in the world.”
— Terry Marks-Tarlow (00:00; 36:41)