New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Episode: Consciousness and the Quantum Wave Function with Richard Lucido
Date: September 30, 2025
Host: Jeffrey Mishlove | Guest: Richard Lucido

Episode Overview

In this episode, psychologist and philosopher Richard Lucido joins host Jeffrey Mishlove to explore a profound and controversial topic: does consciousness cause the collapse of the quantum wave function? Lucido discusses his philosophical approach (naturalistic idealism), reviews foundational philosophical and quantum concepts, and, most notably, details his experimental attempt to test the 'consciousness causes collapse' hypothesis using subliminal priming, quantum random number generators, and carefully structured experimental controls. The conversation bridges philosophy, quantum physics, and psychology, shedding light on both the challenges and revolutionary implications of this line of inquiry.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Idealism and the Primacy of Consciousness

• Idealism vs. Physicalism

  • Lucido defines idealism as the belief that "the primary constituent of reality is consciousness, that it's not physical... The primary constituent of reality is non physical things, consciousness, spirit, mental things." (03:27)
  • This stands in opposition to physicalism, which asserts reality’s foundation is in atoms, molecules, space, and time.

• Philosophical Foundations

  • Referencing Descartes: “I think, therefore I am.” (05:10-05:14)
  • Mishlove and Lucido agree many philosophers accept that direct, indubitable experience begins with consciousness itself.
  • Lucido reminds us that attempts to prove the objective existence of the external world (Bertrand Russell’s lament) have failed to produce airtight proofs. (05:40)

2. Quantum Physics and Information

• Quantum Mechanics & Information as Reality

  • Lucido suggests quantum mechanics operates as one would expect from an idealist perspective; matter lacks objective presence over time and is fundamentally mathematical or informational. (07:56, 09:31)
  • John Archibald Wheeler’s "It from Bit"—the idea that matter is information—is cited as convergent with this idealist view, although physicalists and idealists draw different conclusions from it.

• Essence vs. Existence

  • Drawing from Sartre, Lucido explains that numbers and elementary particles "exist only as their essence" (e.g., number 3 is always and only itself), unlike physical bricks which carry unique, distinguishable existence. (10:10-13:15)
  • Consciousness, in contrast, "escapes its essence" because of its existence over and through time—it cannot be wholly captured by its description or definition. (13:20-15:54)

3. The Temporality of Consciousness

• Discrete Conscious Moments

  • Consciousness is not continuously divisible; it unfolds over discrete "temporal extension[s]" of ~50 milliseconds for humans—meaning we experience a "block" of time as a unit, which can’t be aligned perfectly with underlying instantaneous physical states/events. (13:54-17:47)
  • This underpins why mind cannot be reduced to brain: “Unlike the number threes, every moment of consciousness holds onto its unique and distinguishable existence over time.” (15:54)

• Relativity and Conscious Beings

  • The unit of consciousness (its “temporal granularity”) could be longer or shorter for different entities—potentially even on galactic scales if entire galaxies were conscious. (21:03-22:09)

4. Quantum Wave Function and Consciousness Collapse

• What is the Wave Function?
  • Quantum mechanics describes events only in terms of probabilities ("probability wave"), with the wave function collapsing to a definite outcome upon measurement. (22:56-26:24)
  • The central question: What causes this collapse? Measurement itself, as per the Copenhagen interpretation? Many worlds (no collapse at all)? Or does collapse occur when consciousness interacts with the information (the von Neumann–Wigner interpretation)? (26:24)

Notable Quote

"It's not the measurement device that causes those possibilities to get to just one possibility. It's the interaction with consciousness."
— Richard Lucido (26:24)

5. Lucido's Experimental Test of the 'Consciousness Causes Collapse' Hypothesis

Experimental Design

• Subliminal Priming with Quantum Randomness
  • Inspired by the idea that quantum events may remain in superposition until consciously observed, Lucido designed an experiment combining:
    • Quantum random number generators (using radioactive decay detected by a Geiger counter) to set subliminal primes (numbers 1-9).
    • Primes were either consciously viewed by the experimenter (collapsed by observation) or left unobserved (presumed still in superposition).
    • Subjects responded to stimuli (determining if a displayed number was odd or even), and reaction times were compared for congruent/incongruent primes in the observed and unobserved conditions.
    • The key distinction: When the experimenter observed the prime beforehand, was the priming effect stronger? (33:57-36:30)

Key Results

• Observed (collapsed) primes produced a much stronger priming effect (faster reaction times when congruent) than unobserved (un-collapsed) primes.
  • Example Data: "In the first study... difference between the primes that were congruent... versus those that were incongruent was 9 milliseconds [unobserved]. But when they were observed beforehand, the difference... was 37 milliseconds, which is four times higher." (40:08)
• Replicated across four experiments; effect was consistent whether responses were given verbally or via keyboard.

Interpretation & Implications

• Lucido argues that if physicalism were true (collapse on the Geiger counter’s detection), no difference should exist between observed and unobserved primes. The observed effect supports the hypothesis that collapse is a function of conscious observation.
• Unobserved primes remain in superposition until observed—even if this occurs later during data analysis, suggesting retrocausality: "the collapse somehow work in a retrograde fashion, backwards in time." (49:07)

"The fact that the observed ones work better... we're comparing groups where all of them collapse when I observe them... to ones where a group where some of them didn't collapse. That's the only way that I can explain why observing would help the effect. And my not observing actually would diminish the effect."
— Richard Lucido (46:12)

Animal Consciousness Test (Bonus)

• Lucido attempted to replace the conscious human observer with his cat, having the cat listen to the Geiger counter clicks. No collapse/effect was observed, raising questions about the specificity of human consciousness in causing quantum collapse. (52:32)

6. Philosophical and Theological Reflections

• The experiment, if replicable, could challenge both materialist physicalism and Berkeleyan idealism (which holds that a divine omniscient consciousness maintains reality at all times), suggesting a distinct, active role for human consciousness. (55:25-57:56)

7. Implications & Replication

• Both Lucido and Mishlove underscore the need for broad replication to substantiate these world-altering implications:
  "If it was true, it would change psychology, it would change physics, it would change philosophy, it would change so much." (58:55)

• Lucido provides all experimental code and methodology at testingthecc.com and invites replications. (62:32)

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I think, therefore I am.” — Mishlove (05:10)
• "Idealism is the idea that the primary constituent of reality is consciousness... non physical things, consciousness, spirit, mental things." — Lucido (03:27)
• "If from an idealist perspective, quantum mechanics and the way that it works is exactly what you would expect if matter does not have objective presence over time." — Lucido (07:56)
• “Consciousness always has to come first. It's behind things... it's almost hard to talk about it.” — Lucido (06:28)
• “It's not the measurement device that causes those possibilities to get to just one possibility. It's the interaction with consciousness.” — Lucido (26:24)
• "In the first study... difference between the primes... was 9 milliseconds [unobserved]. But... observed... was 37 milliseconds, which is four times higher." — Lucido (40:08)
• “If I was a professor, and I was worried about tenure in publishing, I could see, you know, I'm not going to do this right now... But this is what I want to do… I have that privilege of not needing that because I'm okay, I do other things.” — Lucido (61:00)
• “If it was true, it would change psychology, it would change physics, it would change philosophy, it would change so much.” — Lucido (58:55)
• “We need to find more people like you... Because it seems to me to be a fulcrum, a real turning point if the study can be more widely replicated.” — Mishlove (61:50)

Important Timestamps

• Idealism & Philosophy: 03:27–07:16
• Quantum Mechanics and Information: 07:56–10:04
• Essence vs. Existence & Consciousness: 10:04–17:47
• Unit of Time for Consciousness: 19:13–22:33
• Explaining the Quantum Wave Function: 22:56–26:24
• Von Neumann–Wigner, Consciousness and Collapse: 26:24–28:47
• Lucido’s Experiment Design: 33:57–36:30
• Data and Results: 40:08–45:48
• Interpretation, Retrocausality: 47:51–49:07
• Animal Consciousness Test (cat experiment): 52:32–55:25
• Comparison with Theistic Idealism: 55:25–57:56
• Call for Replication: 61:50–62:32
• How to Access Code/Methods: 62:32

Summary & Takeaways

Richard Lucido’s work attempts a scientific test of whether consciousness truly collapses the quantum wave function—one of the deepest questions linking physics, psychology, and philosophy. With statistically significant findings suggesting that only consciously observed quantum events manifest full “priming” effects, Lucido’s research, if replicated, could challenge the basic structure of reality as understood in science.

He invites the broader scientific community—especially experimental psychologists and open-minded physicists—to replicate and extend this work. The findings have ramifications not just for quantum theory, but for understanding the mind, the fabric of reality, and how (or whether) our awareness brings the world into being.

Further Resources:
All data, code, and instructions for replication can be found at: testingthecc.com