Podcast Summary: Magic and Science with Dean Radin

Podcast: New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Host: Jeffrey Mishlove
Guest: Dean Radin, Chief Scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences
Date: October 31, 2025
Duration: Approximately 1 hour, 8 minutes

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the intersection of magic and science, focusing on Dean Radin's latest research and thinking. Together with host Jeffrey Mishlove, Radin explores the cultural taboos around psi (psychic) phenomena, presents experimental evidence for intention affecting matter, discusses traditional and modern magical practices (including chaos magic), and shares his views on the responsible pursuit of these topics. The tone is open-minded yet evidence-oriented, with both participants seeking to bridge gaps between scientific rigor and mystical traditions.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Sociological Taboo Around Magic and Psi Research

• Historical Hostility: Radin highlights longstanding tension between parapsychology and the occult community, with each side regarding the other suspiciously.
• Taboo-Breaking: Radin has recently prioritized breaking these cultural taboos so open discussion can occur in academia and science broadly.
  • "Every community has their own taboos and parapsychology is no different... I want to break those taboos." (04:28, Radin)

The “Dark Overlay” of Magic in Culture

• Magic historically carries negative connotations, often depicted as "dark" in fiction (e.g., Harry Potter), which Radin aims to dispel.
  • "Getting rid of the automatic association with negativity is also important... there actually is some interesting science that's going on here." (05:40, Radin)

Experimental Science on Magic & Psi

Mind-Matter Interaction Experiments

• Photon Experiments: Radin describes his experiments with optical interferometers and double-slit setups, testing whether conscious intent affects quantum events.
  • Previous Research: Earlier significant results were often marginal; Radin advanced the field with innovative methodology.
• Recruiting Magicians & Meditators: In a novel study, both magicians and meditators attempted to influence a laser diffraction pattern using intention.
  • Methods: Over 100,000 initial applicants, whittled down to ~50 serious participants (about equally divided between magicians and meditators).
  • Results:
    • Meditators produced a small but significant effect.
    • Magicians produced a "whopping effect," especially during intention intervals, with astronomical odds against chance (approx. 4 quadrillion to 1).
    • "The magicians got a whopping effect... very, very strong result." (13:17, Radin
    • "Odds against chance... something like 4 quadrillion to 1." (20:20, Mishlove)

Pre-registration and the Nature of Scientific Inquiry

• Exploratory vs. Confirmatory: Radin supports exploratory (post hoc) analysis alongside confirmatory (pre-registered) analysis because the field lacks mature theory.
  • "I'll continue to do post hoc analyses and exploratory work forever. Because we're not a mature industry yet." (20:39, Radin)

Explaining Mind-Matter Interactions to Mainstream Science

• Photon Focus: Radin uses photons to bridge the language between psi research and mainstream physics, referencing the von Neumann-Wigner interpretation of quantum measurement.
  • "It's a way of then using the language in physics to appeal to people who already understand why that would be of interest." (22:21, Radin)

Studies on Magical Objects & “Charging” Matter

• Chocolate & Tea Blessing Experiments: Items blessed by shamans or monks resulted in measurable positive effects on mood in participants, under double-blind conditions. Similar results with plants and even cell cultures.
  • "The methods, the double-blindedness, the statistics... were all... in accordance with the best kinds of papers that he [Jim Fallon] had seen in mainstream literature." (25:22, Radin)

The Paradox of Double-Blind in Psi Research

• Radin points out that if psi is real, double-blinds may never truly isolate variables, since intention can traverse conventional boundaries.
  • "It's a problem, isn't it?... We need to develop an epistemology that fits the actual nature of the phenomena better." (29:20, Radin)

Correspondence Between Magical Folklore and Experimental Psi Lore

• Many conditions said by magical tradition (altered states/gnosis, belief, focus, motivation) match experimental findings on what enhances psi effects.
  • "Altered states matter... belief... attention, motivation—all of these... are mentioned in the magical lore as well. So I don't think that's a coincidence." (33:30, Radin)

Modern Magical Developments: Chaos Magic

• Radin discusses Peter Carroll and chaos magic, which draws on mathematics and probability rather than ritual for achieving magical effects.
  • "Chaos mathematics actually could work as a way of understanding magic... you can calculate, based on the equation that he came up with, the likely effectiveness of a magical practice." (36:26, Radin)

Large-Scale Psychokinesis: Metal Bending

• Radin recounts his personal metal-bending experience, a transformative PK event, and reflects on the difficulty of investigating such phenomena in rigid laboratory settings.
  • "I bent that [spoon] in half with a little gentle touch... I have no idea how I did this." (39:56, Radin)
  • "It did not involve force, as far as I can tell, because that would have injured my fingers." (41:18, Radin)

Divination, Retrocausation, and the Block Universe

• Radin explains the overlap of magical and scientific theories suggesting intention can influence not just events but the probabilities of past, present, and future.
  • Retrocausal Experiments: Elmar Gruber’s supermarket click experiment, where intention apparently retroactively altered data patterns.
  • "It suggested that the intentions now were rippling backwards in time and influencing something in the past." (46:39, Radin)
  • "It's as though if we know that something happened, it sort of collapses... and becomes really difficult or impossible maybe to change it. But if we don't know... a lot of the past world can be in principle influenced now." (50:26, Radin)

Ethical Cautions Around Magic

• Both speakers discuss the traditional warnings in spiritual texts against magic, suggesting power can corrupt, and that spiritual maturity is required.
  • "The fear of it, the reason why I don't go there is because I don't know that I could resist it." (54:51, Radin)

Accessible Magical Practices

• Radin includes basic techniques (word magic, sigil magic, candle magic, knot magic) in his book at readers’ request—emphasizing that these rituals are all about intention and focus.
  • "They're all very elementary... they're designed to appeal to what you will resonate with." (56:42, Radin)

The Paradox of Magical Mindset

• Effective magic (and psi) requires "effortless striving," a state of strong intention held without tension or grasping—akin to advanced meditative states (gnosis, samadhi).
  • "You have to strive and want the thing that you want with every ounce of your being, with no effort." (59:08, Radin)

Exercises to Develop Gnosis

• Describes breath-counting exercises (down from 10, then with increasingly difficult versions), to cultivate sustained focus and reduce mind wandering—a prerequisite for psi or magic.
  • "If you can get to 50 with the more difficult version... you will have achieved gnosis, because that is not easy to do at all." (61:08, Radin)
• Definition of Gnosis: Sustained, paradoxical state of high focus and awareness paired with effortless intention. In this state, the ego recedes and pro-social qualities come to the fore.
  • "In that state... you are transformed from whoever you thought you were before. You could have been a complete jerk... You are transformed in the direction of being pro social." (62:59, Radin)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On taboos and scientific openness:

  "Every community has their own taboos and parapsychology is no different... I want to break those taboos."
  — Dean Radin (04:28)

• On negative associations with magic:

  "Getting rid of the automatic association with negativity is also important... there actually is some interesting science that's going on here."
  — Dean Radin (05:40)

• On psi experiment results with magicians vs. meditators:

  "The magicians got a whopping effect... very, very strong result."
  — Dean Radin (13:17)

• On probability of magicians' results:

  "Odds against chance... something like 4 quadrillion to 1."
  — Jeffrey Mishlove (20:20)

• On the paradox of double-blind studies in psi:

  "We need to develop an epistemology that fits the actual nature of the phenomena better."
  — Dean Radin (29:20)

• On folklore and experimental lore agreement:

  "Altered states matter... belief... attention, motivation—all of these... are mentioned in the magical lore as well. So I don't think that's a coincidence."
  — Dean Radin (33:30)

• Radin’s personal PK experience:

  "I bent that [spoon] in half with a little gentle touch... I have no idea how I did this."
  — Dean Radin (39:56)

• On holding intention lightly (the paradox):

  "You have to strive and want the thing that you want with every ounce of your being, with no effort."
  — Dean Radin (59:08)

• On the transformative outcome of gnosis:

  "In that state... you are transformed from whoever you thought you were before. You could have been a complete jerk... You are transformed in the direction of being pro social."
  — Dean Radin (62:59)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction and Guest Bio – 01:40
• Breaking taboos in magic/parapsychology – 04:28
• Historical, cultural negativity of magic – 05:40
• Description of double-slit and diffraction experiments – 09:13
• Magicians vs. meditators study details/results – 13:17, 20:20
• Radin’s rationale for experimental focus on photons – 22:21
• Blessing and charging studies (chocolate, tea, cells) – 25:22
• Double-blind paradox in psi – 29:20
• Magical folklore and research overlap – 33:30
• Chaos magic/modern magical thinking – 36:26
• Personal metal bending account – 39:56
• Retrocausation/divination experiments – 46:39
• Ethical and spiritual warnings about magic – 54:51
• Accessible magical practices – 56:42
• Mindset for magic/psi, paradoxical effort – 59:08
• Exercises to develop gnosis/focus – 61:08
• Definition and outcome of gnosis – 62:59

Conclusion

This episode offers a unique, in-depth exploration of how magical practice and scientific investigation can inform each other. Dean Radin argues for open-minded, empirically-grounded inquiry into psi phenomena, underscores the need for personal responsibility and ethical maturity in such pursuits, and provides both theoretical and practical insights for listeners interested in integrating magic and science in their understanding of reality.