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New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Meditation with Annika and Tristan
01:06:31
Meditation with Annika and Tristan Annika and Tristan are two distinct persons occupying a single body. To our knowledge, their case is unique and neither understood nor even described in the psychiatric and psychological literature.
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A
Anika and Tristan, two souls in one body learned how to share the body through a meditative practice. Keep watching to learn more.
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Book three in the New Thinking Allowed Dialogue series is UFOs and UAP. Are we really Alone? Now available on Amazon.
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New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit, the topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cihs.edu.
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A
You can now download a free PDF copy of issue number eight of the new Thinking Allowed magazine or order a beautiful printed copy. Go to newthinkingallowed.org thinking allowed conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove. Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Today we are going to explore in some depth the topic of medicine meditation. My guests are Annika and Tristan, two souls who occupy one body. Now, you might wonder why an old guy like me would be interested in hearing about meditation from such young people as Annika and Tristan. Annika is still a teenager and Tristan is in his 30s. But the truth is that for the last three years, out of necessity, these two souls have been meditating, meditating about six hours a day. And as a result, their understanding of the meditation process has become vastly accelerated. So I'm looking forward to an interesting discussion. Welcome, Anika. Welcome, Tristan.
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B
Hi, Jeff. It's great to be here.
- [02:28]
D
Yeah, it's great. Thank you so much for having us.
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A
It's a pleasure and even a joy to be with you. So let's start. By a simple definition, what is meditation for you?
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D
You go first.
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B
Okay. Meditation for me is. Well, it's funny because we didn't really realize we were meditating at first, and we'll go into the history of that, but for me, meditation is quieting your mind, relaxing your body, and really just allowing yourself to just kind of empty. And that, for me, is meditation. It's really simple quieting your mind, you know, stopping the racing thoughts, the constant negativity, and then really looking at your thoughts and examining them closely and allowing them, you know, to go by or accepting and loving them. And there's different types of meditation, but that's basically the general idea of it.
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A
Have you taken instruction in meditation?
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B
No.
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A
So everything you're telling me about meditation will be based on your own experience?
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B
Yes. Yeah, based on our own experience.
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D
And meditation, for me, I mean, Annika said it best, but it really is quieting the Mind and reducing what we call presence in the brain, where we're trying to reduce how much activity I guess, we're generating in the brain. And it allows us to give space to the other person so that they can switch in and take over the body, or it gives them time to think about things. So it's really essential for us. And also to echo what Annika said a little bit, too, it's about really inspecting the thoughts that you do have and being aware of those thoughts instead of just allowing your mind to. And allowing your mind to dwell on certain subjects and really staying in the present moment. That's absolutely key, is being present. So even if you aren't laying down or sitting, being present continuously is an active meditation.
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A
And I am assuming that when you meditate, you're typically doing it alternatively, one of you is active in the body and the other one is meditating. What? You might even say not in the body.
- [05:03]
B
Exactly. You got it. So, like, right now, Tristan's meditating, and he's doing that to provide me, like, the space I need where I can come in and I can, like, have a conversation with you. If we weren't, we'd be fighting over the body, and the body can't handle the both of us at the same time at full strength. So that was one of the things we learned early on is like. And this is like, before we knew what meditation was. And neither of us practiced meditation. I did that one meditation that brought Tristan back to the body, but I didn't even think that was meditation at the time. I don't know what I thought it was, but for me, it was just. I was exploring consciousness. And so eventually we did learn that it was meditation.
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A
It was kind of a rave, the way you describe it. Although I gather you were alone in your apartment with colored lights and loud music.
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B
No music at all.
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A
Just lights, lights and color. And with the help of cannabis.
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B
Yep, exactly. And so it was a. It was an intense first meditation experience. It was. It was. I experienced ego death and everything else. It was really, really intense. But now, like, when Tristan came back and we started sharing the body, we realized, like, the body couldn't handle the both of us. And we. To the point where we actually were worried that the body might die. And that sounds crazy now because we're doing so well, but at the time, we were really afraid because we were experiencing functional seizures and glitches and tics and just the awful, awful, awful side effects and jerking and rocking, and it was just awful. And so we started to Learn out of necessity, out of survival, that if one of us went into a more meditative state, that would give the other person the ability to come into the body and do whatever they want and so. And also the ability to think. So that. Because, I mean, like, when Tristan first came back, one of the most difficult things was the brain was filled with twice as many thoughts, and they were, like, hitting each other and clashing and like. And like, I'd fight over, like, the visual memory and, like, we'd fight over different parts of the brain. And it was just. It was so intense of an experience that it really crippled the both of us. And so by learning to quiet our minds, we could just.
- [07:30]
D
And now I'm here. So she just went into a meditative state. And that's how we trade it back and forth, is just allowing to meditate, to fade out. And then the other person's now here in the room, which happens to be me.
- [07:49]
A
Well, a moment ago, Annika used the phrase ego death, she said. And that was on the occasion when she apparently summoned you back after five years. So I wanted to ask Annika about what she meant by ego death. But also, since you're here now, Tristan, when you were absent for five years, was that a meditative state?
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D
I don't know. It felt really out of my control. There wasn't like I was trying to meditate. I vaguely do remember that I didn't want to think about family or become emotional. And I don't know if that had to do with meditation or if I was just trying to not have a death that was overly emotional and that I'd want to stay because of my family or friends or something, because I felt that I needed to do this for Annika and to give her a life. But I don't think I was practicing or even meditating like we do today.
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A
So something changed about three years ago for you?
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D
Yeah, it was coming into the body and sharing it with her and realizing, this isn't going to work. How can we work? How can we have friends? How can we have a life together? And as discussed in previous videos, she was still doing sex work at the time. And I was really, really uncomfortable with it and really, really miserable. And it was really, you know, it was bad. I wasn't happy. And that's when we learned that we could also leave the body through meditation and, like, the other person could go elsewhere into a fourth dimensional state or to the field of consciousness or wherever it is. And that's a really deep meditative state where you're disconnecting from the body and kind of, I don't know, pushing yourself into some other space. And so that meditation came out of absolute necessity, just so that we could hold down a job or that she could go out with friends or that I could go and have some time to myself. It was really essential.
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A
Well, you were in a meditative state just a few minutes ago.
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D
Yeah.
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A
What was that like?
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D
It's just being quiet. I have to be careful not to do it, but it's like I just completely relax my body, allow myself to fade out, and I know she's there, so I don't want to do it. And then allowing myself to just kind of fade and then just quieting all of my thoughts down to as little as possible. And so, you know, if, you know, while she's talking, I might just be sitting here, like, or just even with my eyes open. Typically, it's like I'm just. And that's like, you know, I'm going into a meditative state. I'm trying not to right now.
- [10:50]
A
Well, how does that differ from, let's say, a dreamless sleep?
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D
A dreamless sleep is that you're not aware of what's going on outside the body, whereas I'm still picking up on sounds or hearing things, but I'm allowing it to pass through. Like, I'm not thinking about it. Like, when she's here, I. I'll hear you talking, but I'm not going to try and think about what you're saying.
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B
I can.
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D
Annika might give me a little bit of space so that I can have my own thoughts, but ultimately I'm going to try and keep it at a minimum so that she can have. She can do her thing.
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A
Well, and earlier, I think it was you who used the phrase, or maybe it was Annika fighting over different parts of the brain.
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D
Yes. Yes.
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A
What's that about?
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D
If you're using the memory, the other person can come in and use the memory, but you're putting an extra stress on the brain and you're creating sort of an interference pattern a little bit. So if I'm trying to think of my memory and she's trying to think of her memory, the brain will actually start to get overwhelmed and there'll be a glitch. And it's sort of like an error protection system in the brain. Whereas if a part of the brain gets too much signal or is too overwhelmed. Overwhelmed. And this is speculation because we'd like to be studied so that we could find these things out scientifically. We'll experience a glitch or something where it's like a functional seizure or we'll tick. And sometimes it can be extremely disorienting and a little frightening because it's like the brain is basically saying, this is too much. Stop. And it just clears it. And so it's like getting kind of kicked out of a part of the brain. So it's. It's really strange. And early on, like Annika said, it's like this was about survival. I mean, meditation really hadn't crossed our mind, so to speak. This was about just functioning and surviving and keeping the body alive. And so we joke now that it was kind of meditate or die. Most people aren't put under those situations where it's like, hey, you got to meditate or you're not going to survive. But in our case, we have to meditate. If we're sharing the body, which we do every single day, I'll be meditating for six hours, and she'll be meditating for six hours. So combined, there's 12 hours of meditation taking place in the body on varying degrees throughout a typical day.
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A
The varying degrees is the part that really interests me. You seem to be suggesting here that you're able to locate the seat of consciousness in different parts of the brain.
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D
Yeah, I mean, it's just like any other part of the body that's been our interpretation is that, like, you use an arm. Right. Well, you might use the eyes or the ears, or you might use the memory, the processing. You might be doing something with math. I mean, scientists have mapped out all to some degree a lot of the functions of the brain. And so when you're kind of. You're like a consciousness moving through these different parts, and certain parts light up. And I mean, like, this is what they see when, you know, they do EEGs or they do, you know, Fmris that you go, oh, well, think about.
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B
Do math.
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D
And they go, ah, well, you know, this lobe is lighting up. The same thing is true. It's just like any other part of the body. So just like you inhabit your body and body parts, you also inhabit parts of the brain as your consciousness moves through it.
- [14:31]
A
In terms of the different degrees, there are times when, I know Annika has described, and you've described in a previous interview, being out, in your case, partially out of the body. Like your feet were still in the body, your legs were still in, but the upper part of your body of yourself, I think, is the way you expressed it was outside the body.
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D
I'm not sure about that one. When we described it, can you describe it again?
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A
You were on the ski trip, if I recall.
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D
Oh, the ski trip, yeah, that was, I mean, like that was Annika. And she ended up outside of the body completely in an out of body experience that was something new to us that had never happened.
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A
But then you had a similar experience.
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D
And then I had a similar experience partway. Part, yes. Okay, now I know what you're talking about. Yes, I ended up partway out of the body after experiencing a lucid dream and then doing sort of this out of body protocol. And I ended up lifting up out of the body about halfway. And that was a much more intense experience than our normal meditative experiences. This was something that the entire body was like. The upper body for me was vibrating. I felt like I was energy or something. And then I could feel the resonance between her soul and mine because she was feeling still in the body. And when I realized, oh, she's not coming out with me because that was our goal, I was like, oh, actually I should go back in. And I did. And then we woke up and the body was stillthe upper body where I had left was still tingling. So that was a much more intense experience than our average everydays. Although I will say that when we do deeper meditations or when we reach higher densities of consciousness, those are also really deep meditative states, but in a much more active way. So again, still embodied, but much our consciousness is at some sort of different frequency or different level and interacting with the body in that way. So there's a lot of diversity in this.
- [16:37]
A
So of course we're running into problems with the limits of human language, especially since we're dealing with realities that seem to be experiential and not necessarily physical at all. But you use physical language. When you say I'm halfway out of my body, it suggests that there are two bodies here. A spirit body which is halfway out of a physical body. Is that how you experience it? That you have a spirit body?
- [17:08]
D
Yeah, yeah. It's like you have a spirit body and it's something that flows, kind of flows through the body at all times. I think that, and my guess is this is related is some people experience like phantom limb, where they lose the limb, but they still feel like the arm is there. And for me that denotes kind of what an energy body might be in our case. Absolutely. It's like you have a separate body. And I think that when the body dies, you're left with just your energy body and people are kind of Shocked. There's my body. But how am I alive when I'm standing right here next to it? And so that's that energy body. And we might not be able to see it, or maybe we can see it at certain times, but ultimately it's something that in the material plane, you can't really see.
- [18:05]
A
So when you talk about going into a meditative state and giving the body over to the other soul that shares the body with you, sometimes you describe it as if you're no longer in the body.
- [18:20]
D
Yeah, when we first. Because that was the only. Because, again, we're reaching the limits of human language. So when we first were doing this, we really felt. Because it does feel like you're leaving the body. You really are detached. Like, she's in a deep meditative state right now. And she's like, I can feel the arms, I can feel the legs. So I know that she's not really feeling anything of what I'm feeling right now. So to her, she's disconnected from the body. She's not maybe outside of it with her energy body, but she has absolutely disconnected it from it enough to not be able to really feel anything. So if I hit my leg on a table right now, I'm going to feel that, and she's gonna be fine. And she could actually come in just to the head and talk while I'm reeling in pain. So we've even used this to our advantage, like when we get sick. So the opposite happens where we fight over who gets to leave the body, because nobody wants to be there when you're sick. So lots of interesting variety to it.
- [19:20]
A
If you both left the body, what would happen? Would the body die?
- [19:24]
D
No, it just would. It would just. Well, it'd be like when you. If you lay down and you go into, like a deep meditation where you're trying to relax every part of your body and you're trying to decrease awareness. That's what would happen is the body would just crumple onto the floor, but we'd still be in it, but just reduced. Our presence in the body would be reduced. And that was something early on was presence levels for us to understand the dynamic of it.
- [19:53]
A
So would you say right now, for example, Annika is 1% present in the body?
- [19:59]
D
Yeah, I can feel her. She's about maybe 5% present in the brain right now just so that she can listen. And in terms of the body, she's pretty gone. She's in a deep one, which worries me because now I have to really. She's going to be a little startled when she comes in. And so we can have varying degrees of presence and presence levels, but we have to manage them because if we both go into something, the body will start like if we put all of our presence in the body, like we're fighting over something, then the body will not know what to do or can't handle that level of intensity, or.
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B
Not.
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D
Just intensity, but conflict sending signals in different directions that it will actually glitch out.
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A
Now I know you're able to go back and forth very rapidly. You showed me a video, 10 minute video. You went, exchanged places 250 times in 10 minutes.
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D
Yeah, that's an average day for us.
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A
That's typical.
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D
That's typical. And I think Annika, I can feel her, she would like to speak on this, so I'm going to trade it to her.
- [21:15]
B
Okay. So in a typical day we do about like thousands and thousands and thousands of switches back and forth and of varying degrees and intensities. But in that one video we switch two hundred and fifty times. And there are some people who say, hey, this is acting or oh, she's a really good actress or something. But I'd like to remind people that recently there was a show called Moon Knight on Disney and the main character was someone who had did and so he had to betray two separate souls or characters in the same body and he had to switch back and forth. And there's a behind the scenes clip where basically Oscar is like, yeah, this one scene, it was really tough. And I switched back and forth three times between these characters, three or four times. And the entire crew was like amazed. The director was amazed. He's like, he's such a good actor. He was able to switch four times and we just went from one single shot back and forth from the mirror to him and we switched that much, you know, to brush our teeth. Do you know what I mean? Like three or four times is nothing. We spend our entire day switching.
- [22:26]
A
But now when Tristan first came back In January or February 2021, you weren't able to switch back and forth so easily.
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B
No, because we weren't really paying attention to each other. We weren't really being respective of each other. We were trying to ignore each other. Which means you just take the body or you try to force yourself into the body because you're like, oh, I'm alive, I'm here, I have to be in the body and you're both doing it. So the body just gets completely overwhelmed and you have all sorts of issues, sensory issues, the ticking, the glitching, and it's just miserable. But eventually we learned how to do it over time, and it just took us trial and error and figuring out how it works and making space for each other. And the more compassion, the more love, the more. The more respect and politeness even. We were able to switch really, really well to the point where like, just now I came into the brain about like 10 or 15% and started to have some thoughts saying, hey, I want to talk to Jeffrey now. I want to talk about Moon night. I want to do this. And then Tristan can hear me, and he's like, okay, all right. Yeah, you know, and then he let go and he went into his meditative state.
- [23:42]
A
And so right now he's in a meditative.
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B
Yeah, right now he's in a meditative state.
- [23:47]
A
And would you say he's in the brain in any.
- [23:52]
B
Oh, yeah, I can feel him. Like, I can feel him in part of my jaw. I can feel him in my lower legs. I can feel him a little bit in the back, in the stomach. So, like, I can feel his presence. And it just feels weird. It feels a little heavy. That's another thing, too, is if we're both in the body, the body gets really heavy, and we'll also start to get really tired. It's almost like the body just can't handle. So we'll actually start to feel like it'll be really slow, and I don't want to have you come interested to demonstrate it, but it's really uncomfortable. So right now it's like. And I'll tell him that even during these interviews, I'll just quick send a thought or an intention saying, hey, buddy, you're kind of in the legs. I can't really move very well, or I'm having trouble with the diaphragm. I can't quite breathe because we can suffocate each other. There's absolutely complications to this. So we just kind of send each other messages. Then of course, he's like, oh, okay. And then he does it and then he leaves. So, yeah, that's how we do it.
- [24:53]
A
Is it in any way, what you're doing, like, mediumship?
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B
I don't know. That's a great question. I know that we have talked to channelers and we've talked to mediums, and they describe a lot of things. Like, sometimes the presence that come in don't know that they have to swallow or don't know that they need to breathe, or there's things. There's complications to that. And there's like, for example, like, if I'm jogging or something, and Tristan is like, well, I'm just gonna come into the face to talk to you. Right? He may not understand the physical exertion that's going on. And he talks, and he starts taking away my breath. And I'm in the body, the physical, you know, everything else. And so I start to run out of oxygen, and I'm like, dude, you have to stop. Stop. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. Because we can. Because he won't understand that the body is under exertion. And it can also be, like, really coming into the body when it's overly exerted can also be really difficult because you're not expecting it. And it's kind of a shock that you have to breathe rapidly and your blood is pumping, and it's very strange.
- [25:57]
A
So you are able to tell, for example, right at this moment, what percentage of the body are you occupying?
- [26:06]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've had to get really sensitive. I mean, that's one of the things that has been a big learning process in this is becoming sensitive to this other presence, this other soul who's in different parts of the body. Because you really have to understand that to coordinate it, or otherwise we'd be, like, clumsy and knocking into things.
- [26:24]
A
So the idea is you can share the body, but you can't both be, like, in the same finger or the same hand or the same leg at the same time.
- [26:34]
B
We can to a degree, if it's to a. You know, like, if I clutch my fist really hard, like, that's a high presence level, right where I'm really feeling it. If you think of, like, doctors, when they're giving shots to children, they'll try to distract the child and, like, give the shot in the arm while the child's not looking. And what's happened is the child's presence is not here in the arm. Their awareness is now moved to their eyes, to their brain, to the other arm. If they're playing with something and that arm is reduced enough where they can get that needle in and the child won't feel it as much. So it's kind of like that. But on a much more extreme level.
- [27:11]
A
Many of us people who are simply one soul and one body, imagine that we're 100% in our body all the time. And I think what you're suggesting is maybe that's not quite the case.
- [27:23]
B
No, it's not. I mean, like, have you ever, like, kind of drifted off into your thoughts and, like, Kind of forgotten about the body or that you're doing something with.
- [27:32]
A
Your hand all the time.
- [27:33]
B
Yeah, that's. That's normal. Like, that's. That's like. That's like a. Reducing your presence in the body and moving all of your. Or if you're like really panicked, you know, you might have a lot of your presence in the brain. Or if you're trying to drift off to sleep, the body might be relaxed. Or maybe if you can't sleep, you're really in the body and you feel restless and you don't feel like you can drift off and kind of get into that really relaxed state. Those are all examples of like. Because meditation isn't like just one thing. It's like a scale, it's a range, it's a spectrum of reducing awareness and controlling your presence within the body and the brain.
- [28:10]
A
This is of great interest to me, the nuances of meditation. For example, you began by saying it's about emptying your mind, but then you said, no, it's about watching your thoughts.
- [28:21]
B
Yeah, it's about both. Because if you have your mind filled with so many thoughts and your mind is just like constantly, constantly, even when you're talking to someone, it doesn't allow you to kind of flow in the same way. And so what you want is to reduce it so that when the thoughts that you do have come up, you can address them fully and completely and you can inspect them closer. And then when you get into higher densities of consciousness, you can start understanding and seeing how your thoughts are now affecting and changing reality. And so that's like really higher level meditative states. But you'll start to see it if you practice that active meditation and being present.
- [29:06]
A
When you say, I'm leaving the body, it's not at all clear to me where you're going. It doesn't seem like you're going somewhere else in physical space.
- [29:17]
B
When we're trading the body back and forth, we're staying in the body just at a very much reduced rate. When we leave for, like, if I want to go on a trip with my friends and Tristan's not coming, he's actively leaving the body, but going to some other place, like a fourth dimension or some. I don't know, it's like a weird. It's just like real life, but it's more. It's just as real, but it's hard to describe. It's like a different reality or something.
- [29:48]
A
Well, we could just for convenience call it the astral plane.
- [29:51]
B
Yeah, the astral plane. Yeah.
- [29:52]
A
Perfect, we could say. So there's this hyperspace reality. We call it the astral plane. It's not part of three dimensional space.
- [30:04]
B
Exactly.
- [30:05]
A
It's somehow outside a three dimensional space. It has its own space. You can move around in it, you can interact in it. It seems at least as real to you when you're there as three dimensional space does normally, but it's not three dimensional space. So you can be out of your body somewhere else in three dimensional space.
- [30:29]
B
Which is what you experience on the ski trip.
- [30:32]
A
Yeah, or you can be out of your body in the astral plane.
- [30:36]
B
Exactly. Yep. Those are the big ones.
- [30:39]
A
And so when you're meditating, typically, are you going into the astral plane or are you just going into a space of oblivion?
- [30:55]
B
Not oblivion, because there's not a break in your awareness. So, like, for this interview, Tristan's awareness is still there. He's still experiencing. He's just reduced the sensory input and he's just kind of. It's like. Because that's the difficult thing for viewers is they see one body, so they're only seeing one person, but he's still there. If you can think of him as sort of behind me, my soul, if you will, is like in front of him. And all I have to do is meditate and reduce presence for it to slip to him. So if I just do it really slowly.
- [31:33]
D
Hi, I've been here and I've heard the conversation, but I do have gaps in the conversation, so I don't like if I. It's hard to just pick up the conversation a little bit because I didn't hear all of it, bits and pieces, because I was in a really deep meditative state. But yeah, I was still aware and still conscious of things, but I just didn't actively think about them or bring them into like memory or awareness. It's just a different state.
- [32:03]
A
Well, it seems to me from just observing you here that there's a period of transition. Like before you fully hear, there is maybe a few seconds where you're kind of moving in or moving out. So. So that's part of the meditative process is the transition into meditation and the transition out of meditation.
- [32:30]
D
Exactly, exactly. Because you're coming in more and then you're reducing yourself and dropping out. And it's just like if you hear practicing meditation and you've got your arm sitting there, the meditation guide might say, okay, now, you know, let your arm feel heavy and drop it. And that's really reducing presence. And it's a dance too, because as she's dropping. I'm getting the signal. Okay, I need to step. I need to, like, increase presence. So really, like, you know, she's. She's going back and, like, if I'm. If this is me and this is her, like, we're trying to do this so that we're. You know, we're doing that presence so she doesn't have to drop all the way and I can go forward. So this is actively taking place. And so when you see those rapid switches, whether it's our song about eating meat, where we're flying back and forth, at that point, we're now going like this really fast, and we're both staying more present while also trying not to overwhelm the body. So this is something we took a long time to practice. It's like playing an instrument. Like, playing the body is like playing an instrument. So we're doing this during the song, and other times we're doing this, and other times we're doing this. And we both are trying to dance in meditation to try and switch the body back and forth. And one of the things that helped us the most was the guitar, because here we were trying to stay on tempo but play our own parts and also sing. And at first, those were some of the most scary glitches and seizure stuff. That was the worst because we were really smashing into each other and overwhelming the body and the brain. But over time, practicing that back and forth through singing and dancing and playing guitar, that allowed us to understand the dance of meditation that we perform.
- [34:29]
A
Now, I am also under the impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there's some connection between the intense meditative practice that you've evolved into over the last three years and your learning about the 2017 article by Leslie Kane and Ralph Blumenthal in the New York Times about the acknowledgement from the US government that something associated with UFOs is real.
- [35:01]
D
Annika. I think it was, like the summer of 2021. Annika just brought. It was random. Just one. She was like, hey. Because she was trying to catch me up on things. So she was going, hey, so here's the pandemic. Here's what happened. Here's the insurrection. Here's what happened. And then she was like. And then. Oh. And then the government confirmed aliens are real. And I was like, wait, wait, wait a second. Like, what? And she showed me the article, and I was like, oh, my God. And then I was like, this is a real topic. This is serious. Because I grew up in the 90s where it was handled sort of as fringe. And. And you had alien abductees going on talk shows, and everybody would laugh at them. And looking back, that was horrible because these were real things. But in the 90s, we just dismissed it outright. So when she told me about this, we started to look into the topic. We started to. We got kind of really into it. All of a sudden. All of a sudden, it was like, her passion. She became obsessed with the topic and wanted to read every book and every article and everything. And through that, we ended up connecting with the experiencer network. And then we learned that consciousness was primary. And then we learned that everybody was trying to meditate, and we were like, what is this meditation that everybody's talking about? And then we read the Law of One, which furthered our understanding of different types of meditation. And, yeah, from there, we finally had more words to put to these things we were doing. And it furthered and deepened our understanding of how we can control our switches and controlling. Switching in and out of the body and also reaching higher states of consciousness.
- [36:36]
A
So a lot of what you're describing from a theoretical point of view comes out of the Law of One and the channeling of the ra, channeling by primarily Carla Rucker.
- [36:51]
B
Okay, I want to come in for this. Yes, the. The Law of One was fundamental, and I recommend everybody read it. I really do. And I know that for some people, like, some of the pieces are going to seem a little unbelievable, especially when they're kind of bugging R.A. about, like, facts about Earth reality, like the pyramids and things like that. Like, some people are going to have a hard time because it may not be as scientifically established, but when RA really wanted to talk about was, like, meditation and the self and higher densities and consciousness. And so when finally the researchers were asking those questions, oh, my gosh, it's just a treasure trove of wonderful information laid out in sort of a more of an engineering way than some of the other spiritual texts. So a lot of Earth's spiritual texts are very much, like, wrapped up in parables or, you know, ideas or concepts. And they aren't laid out like, here's fourth density, here's fifth density. Here's sixth density. Almost like RA is describing the colors of consciousness versus, you know, where you're just getting, like, from Jesus's teachings, you might get a basic understanding of a really good understanding of fourth density going up with just touches of fifth. And you might have. In, like, the Bhagavad Gita, you're having Krishna really talking about fifth density, with one passage that is clearly sixth density. And RA kind of brings all that together and is like, okay, here are the densities here. How you achieve these through meditation. Here's what these things feel like. And, you know, at first, starting off like, we didn't immediately understand these things, but over time we discovered that these densities really do exist and that they're fundamental and they're so important for humanity to know about and understand because it has the potential to absolutely change our world.
- [38:45]
A
What is a density?
- [38:47]
B
So a density is. So there's. It gets used in sort of two contexts and one is like a physical density. So like, we can think of this plane of existence as third density. So that's one type of density. The other type of density, which some people in the spiritual community call dimension as well. And again, we're struggling with human language. We're building these as we go. We're trying. Everybody has a different tool, distortion, so to speak, on what these things are. But a density of consciousness is sort of like a range. Just like if you have a spectrum of light, you're going to have a spectrum of consciousness and consciousness development. So as you progress as a conscious being and you work on shadow work and you work on healing and doing meditation and understanding who you truly are, you can reach these higher densities of.
- [39:40]
A
Consciousness, a higher density. Now, many traditions talk about a higher frequency, but I'm less familiar with the term density.
- [39:51]
B
Well, think of it like light. So like, light has a frequency, right? And you can just change that frequency up and down. But we see also a change in that light, right? Like if. If it goes up and we're going to see a different color. The same thing is true. When you reach these different densities, you have a much more deeper understanding of reality and you function within reality very differently. Other people in other densities aren't going to see it necessarily, but you are. And you're just operating at a totally different plane of reality at that point.
- [40:28]
A
So what you seem to be saying then is that. But the average person spending their waking life in the third density.
- [40:35]
B
Yes, but like, physically. So, like, even if I'm in a fourth or fifth density consciousness, I'm still physically, because of the body, in a third density physical plane. So, yes, most people spend their time in third and second, third, lower third to upper third density. And yeah, but the goal, I mean, is to achieve fourth density, to make certain choices in third density. So that that way you can ascend into these higher densities.
- [41:08]
A
And what is that like If I'm in the fourth density, how does that differ from the third?
- [41:15]
B
Fourth density is a state of endless compassion, of love, of forgiveness, and it's this intense feeling and love for all because you recognize at the very base that all is one and that everybody is actually you. And you're looking at people and seeing the face of God. And so you're really, really in that moment. And so you act from that. You're no longer acting from fear and your fear is like greatly reduced. And it just. It's an intense feeling. You're acting out of service to others which you recognize as yourself. You're working on yourself, trying to heal as much as you can so that you can embody more love and so that you can stay within that frequency more often. Because your frequency shifts throughout the day. So what you're trying to do is shift your mean frequency, so to speak, up into that higher density. And which you can think of in another way as embodying your higher self because your higher self exists within these higher densities, because you are a multidimensional being. So you exist throughout all of these densities and frequencies. But where your attention is, where your consciousness is, is determining your average frequency. So as you move your frequency up, you're going to experience these densities.
- [42:38]
A
Well, that sounds wonderful. I like the fourth density. It's like a great place. It seems like a kind of enlightenment.
- [42:47]
B
Yes, it's enlightenment. I mean, that's what they talk about when Buddha talks about this endless state of compassion and reaching enlightenment. He's talking about fourth to fifth density. So, yeah, that's what it is.
- [42:59]
A
So how does the fifth density differ from the fourth density?
- [43:03]
B
Fifth density is. It embodies more wisdom. In fourth density, you're still acting sort of in a concept of, yes, there's unity, but I don't fully. Like, I know that the other person is myself. And you're acting out of compassion and you feel very driven to service to others. Where fifth density is, you're truly in a state of unity and understanding that you are God and that you have realized your full self. And at that point, you're not looking at anything external as something separate from you. You're in a pure state of unity. And so even everything little thing that happens in your life, you know that you're ultimately doing it and that your thoughts are controlling it, and that everything happens for a reason. And that you also understand there are higher densities above you, interacting with you, and that there are further higher selves from that point up into sixth and like seventh density. But you're in a still somewhat separate but mostly unified state with everything. And there's a lot of wisdom there too, because you understand that everything happens for a reason. So you also, like, you don't see conflict in the same way. You don't see a negative experience. You know, if you cut yourself or something, you're not thinking, oh, how stupid am I? How could I do this? You're understanding, what was I thinking? Because you realize you just had a break and you fell back down in frequency. You had some kind of negative thought, some kind of judgment. Because in fifth density there's. You can't hold judgment against anyone or anything or yourself. And you've really learned to embody a massive amount of love. But it is now mixed with wisdom.
- [44:45]
A
And beyond that, there are how many more densities? Up to 7 or does it go up to infinity?
- [44:53]
B
8 is as far as I've pushed it. 7 is one that I've spent the least amount of time in. 6th density is marked by understanding your multidimensional self, where you're understanding that you're everyone and everything and that is now embodied within you. This is the scene in the Bhagavad Gita where Krishna is showing and demonstrating his true form and he's taking on thousands of arms and hundreds of faces and it's this huge thing. That's what 6 density feels like. And you are now understanding that you are infinite, truly infinite, and you are not beholden to one role, one being, one, anything. And you are just everything embodied within this physical third density. And it's an extremely intense experience. And there are challenges in each density. Like each density is also learning along with you throughout the your life. So sixth density is also learning. And your fifth density self is learning and your fourth density self is learning and your third density self is learning. And the goal is to have harmony across these densities and to align. Because when you align, you shoot up in frequency and suddenly you can embody your highest self. And it's a challenge too, because you won't always remember that you can't take fifth density and shove it into third density. It doesn't work. You'll have issues with like trying to remember what exactly that density felt like and what it was like. But okay, so that was sixth density. Then there's seventh density. And seventh density is. Well, I guess I could chalk. Well, seventh density is, is very hard to describe. It is a state of understanding. It's almost like reality breaks away and you see the Fractal of everything. And you're now understanding that everything that you're interacting with is symbolism and that it's purely symbolic and it's a really intense experience. And that's something that I haven't fully embodied yet. We can get to sixth density pretty easily. But seventh is you're seeing the fractal erupt from you outward, but you're seeing it geometrically. But not that it's like a symbol. It's indescribable, it's really hard to describe. And higher densities exist beyond that, but I have not got to them yet.
- [47:31]
A
Okay, but in order to ascend through these densities, you use meditation.
- [47:38]
B
Yes, meditation, active meditation, for example, like fourth density meditation is really having compassion. It's making a third density choice. So if you're in third density, you make the choice. Service to self, service to others. And through service to others and through that endless compassion, doing acts of service for others with no expectation of anything in return. Just doing things out of love for others, which is really yourself. That, that active meditation and continuously going, ah, I see God in your face. I see God in that. My cat is God. This is God. And then acting out of that love and compassion, you will start to feel in a fourth. And people go, wow, I feel really high frequency. I'm really, you know, like that might be the, the sign of it. And then, then you are in fourth density. And then fourth density can also be marked by. Because now you're accepting that unity, you might have more psychic experiences, you might have more premonitions, you might have more interactions with your guides or beings. But by fifth density, you also understand your guides are really you and everybody is. So you're all working together to further your love and ability to embody love. So. Yeah.
- [48:54]
A
Now, earlier I asked Tristan about the relationship between the UFO experience or community that you joined and your practice of meditation. Because I'm under the impression that there's a connection.
- [49:10]
B
Yeah, there's definitely a connection. I mean, when we talk about stuff like C5 or psionic assets, or we talk about interactions with NHI, these are all meditative states. And we also talk about these beings coming down and frequency in order to interact with us. So this is the whole idea of consciousness being primary to the universe is embedded in the experiencer community. You can't look in any direction without escaping consciousness when it comes to experiencers. So, yeah, that's that. And I mean, it's so ingrained that when we introduced ourselves to the admin who runs the experiencer network. It's like for him it was like confirmation in some way because he's like, yeah, it's all about consciousness. And here's this perfect example of consciousness in meditation. So yeah, it's intimately tied. It's the foundation of the experiencer experience.
- [50:02]
A
Well, it does seem that when we talk about consciousness, there is a dimension of consciousness, almost like a physical dimension of space from north to south. And to put it in the crudest terms, you could say it runs from very, very evil to very, very good.
- [50:21]
B
Well, I mean, good and evil is more of like a third density term, you know what I mean? Because you're looking at things as separate from yourself and this is evil, this is bad. When really it's a being that's on a path of separation who is seeing themselves more and more separate from everything else and is taking in everything as an attack on them, or they're seeing, you know, the other as something bad. And so that separation and not seeing unity is what ends up driving you into a lower states. And if you think of like an animal, they're in, they're absolutely in a 100% a state of separation. They're thinking about survival and I need, I need, I need, I need, I need food, I need water, I need this. Oh, is that a predator? Is this that? Is that like they are not in a state of unity. They're in a, in a greater state of separation in second den. And then if you break it down to like the individual molecules of the universe, you're getting down to like first density. So there is absolutely this scale of separation to unity to traverse. And the goal right now of this time in Earth's cycle is to try to get into fourth density and higher and reach unified society. Like a unified society. Because our galactic neighbors, they know all of this. This is reality, this is fact for them. They understand the densities, they understand God and consciousness. And if we hope to interact with them and have that kind of open contact with not just beings from other planets, but other dimensions and understanding, we have to come to a greater understanding of unity and our spiritual paths.
- [51:59]
A
And of course, we live in a culture in which. Which is a capitalist culture. And the fundamental basis is articulated by the writer who suggested that selfishness is the basis of it. The invisible hand works well. When everybody acts in their own selfish interest, then society works well for everyone. I'm not sure if I accept that or not, but that is the premise upon which modern capitalism seems to operate.
- [52:32]
B
Yeah, I mean, that's great for controlling beings Isn't it? You tell them that separation is absolutely necessary and it's the best thing for you. And that unity and all that other stuff is just a bunch of hippie crap. Yeah. I mean, like, if you want to, you know, put others in bondage and you want to control them and, you know, everyone has free will, but you can trick people into not having free will if you want to enslave a society. Yes. Tell them that separation is all there is and that you're just, you know, a cog in the machine and that there's nothing more than working your job and doing things. And I mean, like, that's. That's such a huge part of the problems we're running in today is that we don't see ourselves unified as a biosphere. And so we're destroying the environment, we're destroying each other, we're harming ourselves ultimately. Ultimately as God, like right now. And so we need to break through and reach that unity. But there are forces who understand this, but they don't want you to understand this, because if you understand this, then suddenly you now are breaking free of what they want you to do. And, you know, they can't manipulate you or dominate you, which is their goal.
- [53:47]
A
Well, that sounds like a statement coming out of separation, though, the other forces.
- [53:54]
B
It is, it is. And that's the tricky thing, is that these densities, there's also paradox. Like when we're talking about, like, third density, there are those who see themselves as separate. And so they try and manipulate, control and dominate. By the time you get up into fifth density, you're understanding that this is now a part of the spiritual journey. And while those things may not affect you, you might have protection against them. Or that when those types of entities interact with you, you understand that they're yourself. And so you're understanding that they're on their own spiritual journey. And so you don't act in the way that they want. You become spiritually sovereign, which is absolutely fundamentally important. So, yeah, one of the tricky things is being able to embody and understand the paradoxes. And this kind of goes into what I was saying before. Before is like when you're in a certain density, reality changes for you. Your perception and understanding of it changes in a way that makes it almost really hard to understand if you're having a con, like someone who's in third density may not understand what you're saying if you're in a fifth density state. I mean, that's one of the things with the raw channelings is Some of his stuff is really hard to understand. If you're in third density and you're like, well, everything separate. And I don't understand. And it's like. Because he's in sixth density, one of the challenges and he talks about this is trying to teach lower densities these things so that they can ascend into higher densities. And so a lot of the work becomes. And even with us was trying to figure out how to communicate with our higher selves from a third density perspective and how our higher selves could communicate into lower densities. It's tricky.
- [55:44]
A
It does seem tricky because if we're talking about higher and lower on the one hand, and on the other hand it's all one. It seems as if even calling it higher and lower suggests a kind of separation, like I'm separate from. From the higher.
- [56:02]
B
Yes. Some people say it's an illusion, but I think it's more so just. It's kind of like quantum mechanics where you have, you know, you have quantum states and you can have superposition where two things can exist in one. So separation exists, but so does complete unity. And so that paradox that just exists and you have to, and you have to kind of learn to deal with it, that at certain times you're going to feel separate and cut off. And. But other times, but that doesn't change the fact that everything is unified and everything is one. It's really incredible. And I mean, this entire journey is really learning more to communicate with yourself, which is everything, and to creating a better relationship with yourself. And so it's strangeness when you're in a third density setting, but in higher densities it all makes sense.
- [56:56]
A
Let me ask you this question. Earlier on I asked you if you had instruction in meditation and you said, no, I've just developed this by myself. But I do gather a lot of your thinking, your metaphysics, comes out of the RA channeling.
- [57:15]
B
Yeah, it was fundamental to helping me understand these things. The tricky thing is when you read the spiritual text, there is a lot of information in it, but a lot of it is also written from a third density perspective. So there's rituals and little things and remedies and, you know what I mean, there's all this stuff. Whereas RA really lays it out like plain and simple, almost like he's an engineer and he's laying it out like.
- [57:39]
A
A. Incidentally for viewers and you may not know yourself, I actually did a monologue about the RA channeling.
- [57:48]
B
Really?
- [57:49]
A
Oh yes. I find it quite interesting. And I did a interviews with a Very interesting lady, Heidi Jurka, who has her book out about the making of a psychic and her history. She worked with Andrija Puharich, a parapsychologist who I used to know. No longer with us. And Carla Rueckert, the channeler of the RA channelings, was part of that group. And Heidi was in Mexico with Carla Rueckert and the RA channelings. And they interacted with, among other people, a famous healer in Mexico named Pachita, who was kind of a miracle healer. There's a lengthy story involving all of these connections. In fact, I'll link to it for viewers who are curious. In the upper right hand corner. If your computer can capture that link, you can go right there. Otherwise, check out our listings, where you'll find it in the monologues that I do. They're called In Presence Monologues. You'll also find it in the interviews with Heidi Jurka, spelled with a J, J, U, R, K, A. So I've been fascinated by the. Even though I can't say that I've studied the material the way you have, I haven't studied it that intensive, but I totally subscribe to the idea that we are one with everything. As far as I'm concerned, that's the basis of my philosophy right there.
- [59:25]
B
Perfect. Amazing. And I'll have to check them out. I do want to give the body to Tristan because I think he'd like to talk about maybe a little bit of how he discovered it. So he's tapping me on the shoulder, so to speak.
- [59:38]
D
All right. Hi. So it's been a while. A long time no see. Yeah. I kind of wanted to add to this in that. So we discovered this, that the densities are real, quite by accident. So, Annika, when I came back to the body, I had never smoked marijuana in my life. And when I came back to the body, Annika was. She smoked a lot.
- [60:06]
A
She was a stoner.
- [60:07]
D
Yeah, she was a bit of a stoner. And so I kind of had to deal with that and learn about it. But one of the things that we noticed really early on is that one of us would end up stoned. Like goofy, laughy, silly. Kind of like, I want to lay on the couch and watch something and eat chips, and then the other person would. Would sometimes be completely fine or even in some sort of weird higher understanding of something. And then that really threw me for a loop because I was like, well, if it's affecting the brain, it should be affecting the both of us, like alcohol does, where we're both feeling tipsy or drunk weed was doing something different. And so, yeah, we realized we were trading the high almost back and forth, the typical stoner high back and for forth, over and over and over again without much understanding or control.
- [61:03]
A
Or different aspects of the high.
- [61:05]
D
Yeah, or different aspects of the high. And we also noticed one of us could end up in a really paranoid and fearful state and the other person could help the other person out. And then eventually we learned that if we both, we could both enter this higher frequency state where our switches were just buttery smooth and there was like. Like the intention was just mixed so seamlessly with action that switching the body was easy. But if we were in fearful or afraid states, we had so much more difficulty even doing an interview like this.
- [61:41]
A
So that's how you know the densities are real, because they made a concrete difference in your ability to switch back.
- [61:50]
D
And forth and to interact with each other. And there were times where Annika would end up in fifth or sixth density. And I was like. I felt like the people who were talking to Ra asking him questions. I was like, annika, how does this work? How does this work? How does this work? Where I would spend half the day just asking her questions and I couldn't really understand. It was like those questions of good.
- [62:11]
B
And evil and how can people who.
- [62:13]
D
Are trying to keep us separate also be a part of unity? All those questions you were asking, those were my questions. And she was able to answer them. But I had trouble being in a lower density, fully understanding them and being able to embody them. And eventually we learned how to both exist within that state and without marijuana as well. Because marijuana had a. Like, people can use it to explore it and find these things, but ultimately it's going to come as a cost because you're not using yourself, you're using something else, an external. And it comes with that cost of crashing you into lower densities and putting you further into separation. And then your body is struggling with it and then you're having to withdrawal and all these other things. People say we won't have withdrawal, but the way she smoked in the past. So, yeah, it's dense experience.
- [63:06]
A
Well, is there anything else you'd like to add on the subject of meditation?
- [63:12]
D
I don't, but Hanukkah might. So.
- [63:16]
B
Everyone should meditate. That's my message. Everyone should practice it. And don't think for a second that it just means sitting with your feet crossed and going. And just like, it doesn't have to be that it can be active. We meditate while doing dishes. We meditate while doing chores. We meditate while just even during this interview, it not something that just has to be where you have to be completely knocked out. It's really focusing on seeing God in everything, really focusing on love, compassion, forgiveness, and not being judgmental, allowing that flow state to arise naturally. And you will naturally reach meditative states while you're active.
- [63:56]
A
What a wonderful discussion. Anneke, thank you so much.
- [64:00]
B
And Tristan and thank you so much.
- [64:03]
D
Yeah, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
- [64:06]
A
It's been a joy. It's been enlightening and revealing. I like the way you've combined the teachings of the RA channeling with your own meditative practice and your unique situation, two souls in one body gives you a very unusual perspective on the value of and the results that one can expect from meditation, which makes the whole thing feel more real to me. So I think you have a lot to offer the world.
- [64:40]
B
Thank you.
- [64:41]
D
Yeah, thank you.
- [64:43]
A
And for those of you watching or listening, thank you for being with us.
- [64:49]
C
Because you are the reason that we are here.
- [65:16]
B
Book three in the new thinking allow dialogue series is UFOs and UAP are we really Alone? Now available on Amazon, New Thinking Allowed.
- [65:27]
C
Is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cihs.edu.
- [65:55]
A
You can now download a free PDF copy of issue number 8 of the new Thinking Allowed magazine or order a beautiful printed copy. Go to newthinkingallowed.org.