Podcast Summary: "MetaTheurgy with Kevin Cann"
Podcast: New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Host: Jeffrey Mishlove
Guest: Kevin Cann
Date: January 9, 2026
Episode Overview
This episode delves into the concept of "MetaTheurgy," an evolved, contemporary approach to theurgy, as developed by Kevin Cann through his philosophical system known as Platonic Surrealism. The discussion traverses ancient traditions, the nature of ritual, contemporary existential crises, the idea of wonder working, and the foundations of consciousness, weaving together metaphysics, physics, and personal transformation. Cann shares his philosophy, personal stories, and practical exercises designed to help individuals reclaim agency and meaning in an increasingly fractured world.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Nature and Expansion of Theurgy (03:24 – 09:44)
- Theurgy Origin: Traditional theurgy, rooted in Neoplatonism, is often seen as ritual practice seeking divine favor or expanded consciousness.
- MetaTheurgy Defined: Cann posits meta theurgy as recognition that all individuals, even the most downtrodden, are already inherently part of the "great cycle of life," powerful and deserving—no need to beg for divinity.
- “All of us, the most downtrodden of us, are really pretty awesome in what we can have in life. But maybe we might need a little help.” (03:24–04:08, Kevin)
- Modern Relevance: MetaTheurgy aims to transcend both pre-modernist rigidity and postmodern meaninglessness, advocating an integrative perspective above "old boxes" and conflict-prone labels.
- “We need these metas now, the old things of the past... we need to improve on them.” (05:53–07:53, Kevin)
2. Postmodern Crisis & The Search for Meaning (09:44 – 11:32)
- Postmodernism’s Consequence: Mishlove and Cann agree on postmodernism's resultant nihilism—meaning is seen as relative or as a mask for power.
- “Usually when we ascribe philosophical meaning... it’s a cover for some sort of power manipulation.” (09:44–10:23, Jeffrey)
- Cann’s Rebuttal: While critical theory helped unravel past confusion, Cann rejects naive perennialism—he’s interested in direct engagement with "the heartbeat of reality."
- “I have no interest in any of that because I’ve landed firmly on the very heartbeat of reality and the physical universe itself.” (10:23–11:32, Kevin)
3. Ritual, Agency, and Everyday Practice (11:32 – 14:14)
- Ritual Reframed: Cann argues ritual is intrinsic to human life—whether in spiritual, daily, or social practices.
- “The way we carry ourselves during the day is a ritual... Ritual is not a dirty word.” (11:51–13:29, Kevin)
- Disempowerment & Hope: Current societal rituals often reinforce helplessness; "meta theurgy" offers practical ways to reclaim individual agency.
4. Healing, Empowerment, and Limitations (14:14 – 21:48)
- Personal Experience at Esalen: Cann recounts a transformative workshop ("The Soul is a UFO") where participants from varied backgrounds, including those facing severe illness or existential crisis, reported feelings of empowerment and, in some cases, improved wellbeing.
- “I had PhDs... I had people that wanted me to help with serious illness or pervasive life problems. And I helped a lot of people like that.” (15:08–16:18, Kevin)
- UFO Phenomena: He discusses experiences with summoning UFOs—presenting ‘wonder working’ as a byproduct, not the main goal. He maintains a grounded, skeptical approach: “Everything is subject to investigation and revision. That’s what makes science beautiful and that’s what makes historically made religion ugly.” (20:31–21:48, Kevin)
5. MetaTheurgy’s Practical Value (21:48 – 26:29)
- Who Needs MetaTheurgy?: Cann emphasizes: if you have a happy, untroubled life, you don’t need it. It’s meant for those facing suffering or seeking to heal.
- “People who have been hurt and want to heal... and they want a new story [from] postmodernism and despair... simple things they can do, simple thoughts they can have, and it might all just get better rapidly.” (22:13–24:37, Kevin)
- Open Intellectual Commons: All of Cann’s writings are public domain; he encourages creative appropriation and critical dialogue.
6. Contemporary Frameworks over Ancient Systems (26:29 – 28:25)
- Going Beyond Tradition: Modern issues aren't always addressed by systems like Vedanta or Buddhism; Platonic Surrealism adapts ancient insights for current realities, integrating neuroscience, physics, and emergent metaphysics.
7. Wonder Working Revisited (28:25 – 32:07)
- Wonder as Transformation: "Wonder working" isn’t primarily about paranormal spectacle—its most important miracles are personal transformations in oneself and one’s relationships.
- “Wonder working should start at home... the wonders should really be in your heart, in your mind, in your body and in your family, in your sphere of influence.” (28:33–29:50, Kevin)
- The World as Movie, Agency as Choice: He likens reality to a movie in the "mind of God," with agency as the conscious choice of role and attitude.
8. Paradox, Determinism, and Real Agency (32:07 – 38:11)
- Emanation vs. Integration:
- Critiques the "emanationist" (descending-from-perfection) metaphysical model: “The farthest out it gets from God, the crappier reality gets. That's the emanationist model. But that... isn't remotely true.” (38:15, Kevin)
- Proposes reality is "broken by design," supporting exploration, growth, and experience rather than mere fall from grace.
9. Consciousness, Monads, and the Human Condition (44:20 – 54:17)
- Monads and the Soul: Cann describes human beings as expressions of awareness and potentiality experienced through individual ‘monads’ (units of consciousness). These monads collaborate, evolve, and interface through souls (purposes).
- “Human beings are awareness and potentiality that have a reflexive capability...” (52:30, Kevin)
- Five Interfaces of Platonic Surrealism:
- Left hemisphere (logic/reason)
- Right hemisphere (creativity/intuitive)
- Enteric nervous system (gut feelings, shadow)
- Monadic layer (individual/unit consciousness)
- Plasma symbiosis (the paranormal/UFO interface)
10. Practice and Exercises (57:37 – 61:50)
- 10,000 Foot Tall Ego Practice:
- “I am unbound awareness. I create the movies and I watch them all. I am not the movie, except when I forget...” (57:42–58:17, Kevin)
- The practice is intended to disidentify from the "movie" of daily life, fostering a sense of transcendent identity.
- On Kant and Universality: Cann addresses Kant's assertion that one can never know the true nature of another; his answer through Platonic Surrealism: “When I’m born as you, then I know what it’s like to be you... awareness is one transcendent thing, and it wants to experience all of itself.” (60:45–61:31, Kevin)
11. MetaTheurgy, Healing, and Love (61:50 – 68:16)
- Baring the Limits of Wonder Working: Cann speaks vulnerably about his wife’s heart failure, expressing why he doesn’t use meta theurgy to force healing upon her—respecting her agency and wishes.
- “Some might think that I might try to twist theurgy... into a form where I could heal her stage four heart failure. I will not do that... I would not force my will on anyone. Even if I could, I would not do so.” (62:25–66:08, Kevin)
- Individuation as Healing: The goal is for each person to develop a “wholeness interface,” aligning all levels of being, and from there, to act as a healthy part of the greater whole.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Fundamental Awareness:
“When I'm born as Jeffrey Mishlove, I know what it is to be Jeffrey Mishlove... Awareness is one transcendent thing and it wants to experience all of itself. So when I'm born as you, then I know what it's like to be you.”
—Kevin Cann (60:45–61:31) -
On Ritual and Everyday Life:
“The way we carry ourselves during the day is a ritual… Ritual is not a dirty word.”
—Kevin Cann (11:51–13:29) -
On Openness and the Marketplace of Ideas:
“Everything I write is public domain. I want people to steal it and I want them to argue about it. I want them to tell me I'm wrong. But I'm getting people increasingly starting to steal my material... and they use it in their own walk.”
—Kevin Cann (25:22–26:29) -
On Suffering and the Need for New Stories:
“People who have been hurt and want to heal, and they want a new story, that is postmodernism and despair and all this shit...”
—Kevin Cann (22:13–24:37) -
On Love and Boundaries in Healing:
“I would not force my will on anyone. Even if I could, I would not do so... My wife... just wants to go home. I won’t take that from her.”
—Kevin Cann (63:54–66:08) -
On Personal Transformation as the Real Wonder:
“You can summon UFOs... What a waste. It’s just another aspect to yourself. All the movies are an aspect of yourself to learn from. And if you need a UFO... go ahead. But just learn from it.”
—Kevin Cann (68:26–68:55)
Important Timestamps
- 03:24: Distinction between theurgy and meta theurgy
- 11:51: Ritual as everyday practice, not something “arcane” or “occult”
- 14:14: Addressing powerlessness and the crisis of meaning
- 15:08: Esalen workshop experiences
- 21:48: Why practice meta theurgy; who needs it?
- 28:33: The real value of “wonder working”
- 38:15: Emanationist vs. Platonic Surrealist models of reality
- 44:29: What is a human being? Discussion of awareness, monads
- 52:08: Introduction to “ten exercises” in Platonic Surrealism
- 57:42: “10,000 foot tall ego practice”—disidentification from the “movie”
- 60:45: Response to Kant—shared awareness
- 62:25: Vulnerable account of Cann’s wife, the limits of ‘miraculous’ healing
- 68:26: Summoning UFOs as an adjunct, not the point
Tone & Language
The conversation is candid, deeply personal, and intellectually adventurous. Cann balances humble humor, serious metaphysical assertions, and heartfelt vulnerability, inviting both philosophical rigor and soulful introspection. Mishlove serves as an insightful and compassionate interlocutor, helping clarify and ground the expansive ideas.
Final Thoughts
This expansive dialogue leverages metaphysics both as philosophical exploration and personal empowerment. Cann invites listeners to approach their lives as “wonder working” participants in the universe, to embrace both suffering and agency, and to reconsider ancient wisdom through a modern, integrative lens, always with room for skepticism, revision, and kindness to oneself and others.
For listeners seeking transformative practice rooted in both mystical tradition and no-nonsense realism, this episode is a rich resource—offering both conceptual frameworks and practical beginnings. A future episode is promised to delve into the remaining Platonic Surrealism exercises in detail.