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New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Near-Death Experiences and Life Itself with P.M.H. Atwater
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Near-Death Experiences and Life Itself with P.M.H. Atwater P. M. H. Atwater, a journalist and leading researcher on exceptional human experiences, has authored numerous books, including The Big Book of Near-Death Experiences and Future Memory.
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I'm just walking down a street in this big city and a woman comes up to me and whispers in my ear, I've just got to tell someone. I've got to tell someone about the time I died. And it went like that for thousands and thousands of times. My research base now is nearly 5,000 adults and children.
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Keep watching to learn more.
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Book four in the new Thinking Allowed Dialogue series is Charles T. Tart, 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology, now available on Amazon.
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New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit, the topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cihs.edu. you can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingalowed.org thinking allowed conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery with Psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Today we'll be exploring near death experiences and life itself. My guest is PMH Atwater, who is one of the most prolific writers today in the field of near death experiences and related experiences. She's a person who was a guest on the original Thinking Allowed series. We talked about her book then Future Memory. She's written many other books, including the Big Book of Near Death Experiences, a manual for Developing Humans beyond the Light Near Death Experience the full Story Dying to Know you, Proof of God in the Near Death Experience Coming Back to Life the After Effects of the Near Death Experience Children of the New Millennium We Will Live Forever, the Real Truth About Death and an autobiography called Edge the Many Lives and Deaths of PMH Atwater. PMH lives in Charlottesville, Virginia and now I'll switch over to the Internet video. Welcome pmh. It is a pleasure to be with you. It's been a long time. I remember interviewing you on the original Thinking Aloud television series about your book Future Memory.
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A
Oh yes, long time ago.
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B
Yeah. We've known each other for decades, so I'm delighted to be with you today and reviewing your long and highly productive career.
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A
And it's a joy to be here. Absolute joy.
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B
Well, I know you're going to be 88 years old next month and you're just so full of vitality. It's a joy to be with you for that reason too.
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A
Yep, yep, yep. I get to be 88 and I.
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B
Just hope when I turn 88 I have the Same energy that you have.
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A
Well, I just finished a book and it's coming out next year and I've started another one.
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B
That's encouraging. And I know it's not always easy for you. I know you had surgery recently, you've had accidents, you had three near death experiences. So you're a very resilient person, I think it's fair to say.
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A
Well, the most recent one this year was in January, and it was ice and snow and I was traveling down or walking down our little driveway to the front door. It was dry. It was perfectly dry. And the next thing I know, I'm flat on my back looking at the sky. And the only thing I could say was, hospital, hospital. And I was rushed to the hospital. In my left hand I was holding one of these large cartons of eggs. Only broke three of them. So funny. And it required surgery and a lot of rehab, but I'm back.
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B
Well, and this is not the first time, if I recall correctly. On another occasion, you landed flat on your face.
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A
Oh, well, that's. I don't remember that. That's been a while ago.
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B
As I say, we've known each other a very long time.
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A
We have. We go back ages. Ages. When you were first, you know, long before you're doing what you're doing now.
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B
That's true, that's true. Well, let's. For the benefit of our viewers who don't know all of this history, let's start out in your early life. As I recall, you were in Boise, Idaho.
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A
Well, yes, I was born in Twin Falls, Idaho. Died in Boise, Idaho. My time in Boise, when we got there, I was a secretary for a while. And then I discovered I could write. A guy that was working for the sheriff's office sent out this flyer. Send me, you know, a page of your paragraph, of your writing, and I'll tell. I'll tell all about you. So I did that. I sent him this little paragraph that I copied from a telephone book. And in that transcript he said, you're in the wrong job. You should be a writer. And I thought to myself, well, that's crazy. I've never written anything in my life. And then I decided, well, why not? I'll do that. So I took my kids, I had three, and we went to a cemetery and they have all this special carving on cemetery heads. And I did what is called heel ball, you know, covering, covering on the tombstones. And we use this heel ball wire, you know, and sent it off to the largest newspaper in the state of Idaho. And the people A woman working for the Idaho Department of Commerce and Development said, you're just who we're looking for. Called me up, gave me a job. And I then started working for the Idaho Department of Commerce and Development. And during that time, I got a hold of this little book on Edgar Cayce, the Sleeping Prophet. And I read that book, and I'm one of these people that I'll read a little bit and then I have to go do it. I'll read a little bit more and then I have to go do it. And by the time I got to the end of that book, I was a new person. And I joined a local Edgar Casey group and had a special healing with Hawaiian people. And I thought, wow, this is great. And was with them for a while. And then in working for the Idaho Department of Commerce and Development, they've set me off on all kinds of jobs. And I started what is called Inner Forum, because why not, why not teach other people? So I did, and I found out that there was an Idaho Writers League. I joined it and start sending out all kinds of stories and new newspaper clippings. And wow. Started Inter Forum, which became a very large organization where other people came, lots of other people came. We had all kinds of programs, big hotels and gee, how many years was it? I don't even remember the years. We were doing so well, trained over 3,000 people. We were just doing so well in training how to use your psychic abilities, your, ah, all of your abilities. And then I was raped, became pregnant, miscarried. And in 1977, I physically died three times. January 2nd, January 4th and March 29th. And there is this voice. There is this voice, Jeffrey, this voice. I call it the voice like none other, because I never heard a voice like this. This wasn't an angel. The typical voices you hear and psychic abilities or different kinds of states of consciousness. No, this was a voice like the whole universe speaking to me. And it said, and I quote, test Revelation. You are to do the research. One book for each death. Book number one was not named. Book two was named. That's Future Memory. Book three, a Manual for Developing Humans and Future Memory. That's a tricky book because it's really a labyrinth. It's really a labyrinth. You have to read it straight through. You can't pick, read or flip around. You have to go straight through. And it's literally a labyrinth. And it'll tell you, take you round and around. And the purpose of the book is to help you gain a higher state of consciousness. And by golly, the book Works. I've had so many people, people by the hundreds, thousands, talk about the book future memory. And if you stay on the path, remember you're on a labyrinth. You're not reading a book. This is a labyrinth. Stay on the path and it'll change your brain. It changed your mind and it has done that with everyone who has ever read it. And you know, after that, the whole. Of course, the world was very different for me. I just wasn't the same person anymore. And the following year, 1978, I'll never forget it. That Monday I went to work. I worked then for the a large department in the bank. They were all analysts. And I went to my boss. It was a Monday morning. I sat down and I said, I'm going to quit my job and chase rainbows. I'll never forget my boss. She said, sit down, don't say a word. And she said that morning at 4 in the morning, she had a dream. She says, I never dreamed, but I had a dream. And I dreamed that you would be walking through my door saying that you were going to chase rainbows. And I slammed her desk and I said, that's not fair. You knew before I did. So I did. I walked out on my life. I sold a home I just bought. I had three children. Two of them went to college. The youngest went to live with her father. And I journeyed first to watch the sunset silver over the Pacific and then drove across the United States and watched the sun rise golden over the Atlantic. And it was there in. I was to live in Falls Church, Virginia. I've never heard of Falls Church, Virginia. But I finally found Falls Church, Virginia and lived there and went uptown in Washington D.C. applied for a job, got the job, and I knew I'd get the job. I just knew it. Applied that morning I went to the Dupont Circle, laid down, put my arms over my chest with my purse right here, arms over my chest and. And I knew I would start to work the next morning. And I just went to sleep. I went to sleep on this little square roundabout in Falls Church, Virginia. Well, in Washington, D.C. and woke up that afternoon and went back to the employment agency. And they were frantic. They said they'd been trying to get me that I got my job. Well, I knew, I knew I did. And when I went there the next morning, I saw myself already there and I was busy going all these places, doing all these things and I just stood for a while at the doorway and I thought, oh, this is interesting, I'm already here. And that just sort of Began all kinds of strange happenings. The first one, the biggest one, I told about my experience at a local police station. It was a large station, so they had a place for social activities and a place for the police. And I'm a cops kid, so that was perfectly fine with me. I'm in that social part. And when I was over a woman, Jeffrey, a woman, I swear, she came up to me with stars in her eyes and she said, oh, I wish something like that would happen to me. And I froze. I froze because my job was not to entertain people. My job was to do the research. And I didn't talk about my research. What happened to me again for 30 years. And I went out and did the research.
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B
What were you doing in the police station?
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A
So I was giving a talk the first time I talked about my near death experience. And that woman came up and admired me. And that frightened me because she wanted to be like me. And I said, oh no, you can get all kinds of things through meditation. And I recommended meditation. And I never talked about my near death experience again for 30 years.
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B
That's when you began your work as a researcher, Right, right.
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A
And as fortune would have it, I was able to get a job in Roanoke, Virginia, which is way south of Washington D.C. so I drove down to Roanoke, met a wonderful couple there, rented a room with them, got a job with what was called a telephone interconnect company. That is to say I would fly all over the country. Well, that, that is to say anywhere east of the Mississippi river and teach people how to use the new, the new interconnect equipment. And this one job, you'll love this. This one job they sent me out on and it was in New York City and it was a big hotel and none of the telephones worked right. And they were having a terrible job. And the Japanese sent up their crew because it was Japanese equipment and they couldn't do it. They couldn't. So they set me up there. So what I did was all of the telephone operators were up high at the top part of the building. And so while they were working, I would open up these big cabinets so they couldn't see me and I would go into the equipment. I literally flowed into the equipment, went all over the entire hotel. I was up there for I think maybe five days. Then I came home, wrote up my report, handed it in, and two days later my boss called me to his office. Never looked me in the eye at all. Kept looking down at his desk and saying, I just want you to know that because of what you found. We were able to fix everything, and everything works perfectly. And it got up and left. And I just sat there and laughed and laughed and laughed. I thought that was so funny. Yeah. And then. Then I began to work more for telephone equipment and installing new equipment everywhere. And I can tell you all kinds of tales about what I went through. It's like in Minneapolis, Minnesota, I'm in a taxicab going from the airport to the job site, and I'm talking to this driver because I'm so interested in the tax base and, you know, they have any colleges in this city? And on and on and on. And the guy who was driving, he said, lady, I'm from Egypt. I don't know anything about this city, but. But I know about the time I died. Let me tell you my story. And so he did. And it was like this, Jeffrey, no matter where I went, no matter where the company sent me, like, for instance, taxicab in Washington, D.C. and the guy that was driving was as black as ebony. I've never seen a human being with skin that black. And I caught myself because, you know, I didn't want to insult him. And he got out of the car, looked at me and said, I. I went where you did. I know all about the other side. And it's like I didn't say anything. And it was just like I would be walking a street and there would be nobody there. I'm just walking down a street in this big city, and a woman comes up to me and whispers in my ear, I've just got to tell someone. I've got to tell someone about the time I died. And it went like that for thousands and thousands of times. My research base now is nearly 5,000 adults and children. I was discovered by Kenneth Ring. He found out that I was out doing this kind of work when we were still living in another part of Virginia. I had married by that time. I married Terry Atwater, Wonderful man. That was 45 years ago. And we moved up to Harrisonburg, Virginia. And I get this phone call out of the clear blue from this guy. He says, I'm Kenneth Ring. I read your book. I wrote this little book that said, I died three times in 1977. That's all it was, just a little bit. And I printed it myself. And he bought it at a bookstore in Storrs, Connecticut. He said, I've just got to come and talk to you. And that weekend, he was spending some time with Raymond Moody and Bruce Grayson and all of them somewhere talking about starting a new Group, they were going to call it iands, the International association of Near Death Studies. Can I come over and visit with you? And we did. And nobody got any sleep that night. Nobody did. And the next morning Ken said, you know more about the near death experience than anybody else. You got to come up to Storrs, Connecticut and meet your compadres. Well, I didn't know anybody else was doing what I was doing. So I came up there, I guess I n said had existed maybe three months and I was, you know, what can I say? So I went through their files and they went through my files and I made out my first mailing, that I would send out questions. So I sent it out to their people and my, my people. And when, when I, when I got, when I got it back. Oh, Jeffrey, everybody talked about love, love, love, love. That's all they could talk about was love. When I knew some of the people I had interviewed were having an awful time, were having divorces and problems with their family, but all they could talk about was love. And so I thought, oh, there's something going on here. I've got to research even further, which I did indeed. And you know, I've been doing this for so many years. 27 books, if you count the books that I've written for children. And the newest one, the last one of research books, will come out May 2026, so that's next year. And it's called Aliens and the Near Death Experience. And that book, Jeffrey, is going to surprise everybody.
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B
Well, I don't think it'll surprise me.
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A
I don't know. I don't know. It'll surprise everybody, I think truly will.
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B
Well, we'll do a separate interview about it when it's out.
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A
Well, I talk about the part of my experience that I didn't tell anybody and the few people that later on, the few people I told have long since passed away. Terry knows about it. You know, how can you talk about something that is beyond your frame of reference? Yeah, that book comes out next year, 2026. Aliens and the Near Death Experience.
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B
Well, aliens is a very hot topic right now. You know, I can tell you this. The most popular programs on our YouTube channel deal with the whole question of non human intelligence. And of course there's a huge connection in all of these accounts of afterlife experience. Whitley Strieber, for example, I'm sure, you know, talks about when he was abducted. There he is having sex with an alien being with the big eyes and so on aboard a ufo. And he notices watching him is an Old friend of his who had died years before.
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A
Well, Whitley, I came to know him and his wife Ann on my various trips I took, gaining more and more information on my various books and my various research projects. And I got to know Ann pretty well. Talked to Whitley several times and he became a good friend. But I really, really liked. I really liked Ann, his wife. My mother's name was Anne. So yeah, a lot of friendship with Ann and of course Whitley too. But my introduction to that, that whole subject was based on a being that laughed, just with full mouth and heart, that laughed out loud in a way that I've never heard anybody laugh. And went into hypnosis several times trying to find out who this critter was and was really surprised. Yeah, from another solar system.
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B
It seems to me that beings from other solar systems, they might have civilizations much older than ours and a much more advanced understanding of what we call.
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A
The afterlife, even what we call life.
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B
Uh huh. It looks like a shadow that was once you. I can see it. Hold it back further though. It's too close there. So it sounds like what you're saying is that you knew this being in another lifetime.
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A
That's who I once was.
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B
Let's be clear.
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A
You scared everybody.
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B
That the being that laugh so loud as who you were or that was someone you knew.
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A
It's someone I once was.
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B
You once were the being who. Well, you still have a wonderful laugh.
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A
That being is from Sirius. It was from a water star that went nova in the Sirius system and came to this planet about in the Eocene period. Long, long, many thousands of years before. Long years before. Thousands of years before. I've never told. I've never shown that to anyone but you.
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B
How did you do. You created this as a drawing, I presume?
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A
I drew it.
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B
Can you tell me the story of how you came to draw it?
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A
I just drew it from memory. I mean I drew it but I didn't talk about that being for years and years and years and years and years. When I finally did, it was under hypnosis to find out more about it and where it came from. It's not a he or a she. It was an it. You did not have sex as we do Procreates very differently. Enlarge buildings. Not. I don't know how to describe them. It's sort of like a dome completely open. And you go in and there's this big like kind of a huge ruby on the bottom and a huge ruby on the top and you go into. And that sets them going and you're there for like a year or so. And that's when you procreate. You become more than you become two. There's no such thing as sex. You become two in these large buildings then. That's in my book Aliens and the near death Experience. And you learn more about what I never wanted to talk about.
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B
There are life forms on Earth today who procreate that way. Single celled organisms.
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A
Yeah, but this was very different. Or that being scared everybody. Not Terry. Terry enjoyed it, but it scared everybody else.
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B
Well, how about you? How did you feel when you drew it? Did you feel like you were drawing an image of a being that you once were?
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A
Yes, but it bothered me. It bothered me because I didn't quite know what to do about that or how to handle that. And it took a number of years before I could. And by that time I had learned not to let it out. In other words not to allow it to speak by itself because scared everybody. Scared everybody. Terry and I got a laugh out of it, but it scared everybody else. And writing the book, Jeffrey I did not want to write the book about it. Aliens in the Near Death Experience. I did not want to write that book. And that voice, that voice that I talked about, the voice like none other in my near death experiences. It spoke to me again last year. Never until last year. And at 3:15 in the morning it spoke to me and said what I was to do. And my answer was no, no, no way am I going to do that. And it just, it made it very clear that I was to do that. So I finally got off my high horse and said okay, because you remember, remember when I was told to do the research in 1977 I didn't want to do it but finally did. And for years and years and years, you know, Ken Ring and ah. Nearly 5,000 adults and children wrote a lot of books that helped a lot of people and especially children child experiencers of near death states. I really recommend that book, all of them, but especially that one. And the big book of near death experiences I gave to I NS the International association of Studies. I gave it to them hook, line and sinker. All, all the dividends, everything. I gave it to them because felt right that here is a book that talks all about the pros and cons of the near death experience for both to children and adult adults. And it belongs with ions the International association of Near Death Studies. It should be their book, not my book. So I gave it to them legally they get all the proceeds and everything. They're now trying to raise enough money to revamp the book, add more material, bring it up to date. And that is already all over the world. And I'm so grateful. The big book of near death experiences needs to be everywhere, with everyone, because it talks about the near death experience, talks about life and death, child experiences, adult experiences. That book is a very, very important book, and it needs to be out there. And INS needs to get all the money for it, and they do. I gave it to them. And I hope eventually that it spreads even further. It's sort of like the encyclopedia of the near death experience.
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B
Let's talk for a minute about the voice like none other. You heard it in 1977 and then you heard it again recently. What about in between? Did you have between 1977 and I guess it was a year or two ago when you heard it? Has it been with you constantly since then, or only rarely?
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A
No, no, it never spoke again to me once. Not at all. That voice has only spoken to me twice. That's it. That's it. The first time in 1977, last year. And that's it. Nope, no more.
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B
The message was so powerful, it only needs to happen once or twice in a lifetime.
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A
Oh, Jeffrey, how can I explain the power of that voice? I don't even know what that voice is. I don't know where it came from. I don't know what it is. I just. I just know that it speaks. And I listen and I do. I don't argue with that voice. Well, I tried. And the more recent one. I tried and I gave up. When that voice speaks, you do what it tells you to do. And I can't call it an angel. I can't say it's any kind of angel. No, I do not know who or what that voice is or where it came from. I have no idea.
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B
Are you continuing your research?
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A
No. Once. Excuse me. Aliens and the Near Death Experience comes out next May. That's my last, last research book. No more. No more. Period. End of story. That's it. Then I get to write books that I want to do. Fun books that I want to do. Not research books. Fun books. And I've already started one. I've already started one.
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B
What would be a fun book? What kind of books are fun books for you?
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A
About thoughts? When I'm thinking thoughts, I'm talking about thoughts. Just thoughts. That's what they look like. They have all kinds of different shapes and forms. Here's another one. Fear creates strangers who should be friends. And it just come to me. So it's going to be a book of all kinds of thought forms. My first one.
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B
How interesting. I mean, as I recall, that was the subject that some of the theosophists were writing about 100 years ago. Annie Besant wrote books on thought forms. So you're carrying on that tradition, I guess.
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A
I don't know. Yep, yep. I'm going out. You know, when a thought form comes, it's almost like the air folds over. I don't know how else to explain it. It's like the air fold the folds over and I'm in another place or I'm able to see differently and whatever the thought is will change form. You know, in my own near death experience, you know, I died three times in 1977. And in my. In my third one, when I rose from my body and went up to the ceiling, I was in. I was in my bedroom at the time. And I was able to crawl across the house we had ranch houses in, not like they are now. And I. And I was. And I was able to make it maybe another three more feet. I'd have made it to the kitchen where we had a wall phone. And I left my body and. And I came back down to be sure that the body was really, really dead. And I spent some time around my heart, some time around my nose, my body frame, just to see is there any movement, is there any air, anything working? And nothing was working. So I went back up to the top part of the room and I remember dancing around the. The light piece that was there, the light that was there. It was a very nice light. And I was dancing around it and dancing around it because I was so happy to be out of that body. And I remember everything I would think would form thoughts all over the room, all over everywhere were these thoughts. And they were. Oh, they were beautiful. They were different colors and they were. They were beautiful. And the idea occurred to me that I was causing them. That they were. That I couldn't. That I could make them, that I was causing them to exist. And I thought, hmm, you know, if. If I'm making them, then I choose. I choose to make a house. And when I made that choice, the dining room left and I was in another realm. And suddenly there was this white house. Three steps going up to. Going up to a porch. And I remember trying to turn the doorknob, and the doorknobs were all brass. And I remember walking down the stairs and going all around the house. And it was four square and it was white and it was beautiful. It was just Beautiful. And then I thought to myself, well, if I can create a house, maybe I can create something that's animate. So I decided to create a tree. A great big, huge, huge tree. Lots of leaves and branches and big roots, even insect bites all over the bark. And I just. And in the houses. It was gone. I was gone. Everything was gone. And I was just in joy, absolute joy. And then I decided I wanted to make a city. And I did. A city with people and dogs and cats and trash cans and a sky and. And that's when loved ones that I had who had already died came back to visit, including a grandfather I had never met. And he came up to me and introduced himself to me and told me I was his grandfather.
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B
You were his.
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A
He was my grandfather.
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B
He was your grandfather?
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A
Yeah, he was my grandfather. I never had an occasion to meet him. I did. I did meet my grandmother. Oh, this is a long story. Go on and on and on about my own near death experiences. Yeah. But that piece of my life, that opportunity to meet again my loved ones who had died and gone on before me, that was incredible. That was incredible. Including the ability to meet this grandfather who. Well, there was no way I could meet him because he died of diabetes one week before the medicine was available for him to take. So he died one week before the medicine was available. And. Yeah, I got to meet him at some point. That was very special.
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B
At some point, though, you came back into your body, obviously.
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A
Yeah, I came back into my body. I did, but I did not know who I was. I really didn't after that one. You know, I had three, and this one was. This one was the third one. And when I came back, I had. My two daughters were still home. My son was long gone, and they were concerned about me. Should they call a doctor? I said, no, I'll be fine. And when I tried to get up from bed, the pain was so bad that if I'd have had a knife, I'd have cut my leg off. Yeah, it had been through some rough times. It was very difficult, which is true.
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B
For many near death experiencers.
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A
Yes, I know what they went through because I went through it myself. I knew. I knew what they went through and I knew how they could get out of it. So I knew. Knew how they could deal with it. And that's why I think I got so many people who would open up and talk to me over those years, as many years. And of course, I was fortunate enough in Roanoke, Virginia to get this job that flew me all over everywhere. So I met all kinds of people under all kinds of circumstances and that enabled me to do a very that enabled me to do a lot of research.
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B
Well, you've had an amazing career over more than half a century. It's wonderful to be able to reflect with you about the ups and the downs and the aliens and the jobs that you've been through. PMH I'm so glad that we've had this time together and that I can share your life and your wisdom with the New Thinking Allowed audience.
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A
Well, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
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B
Yes, there will be more to come.
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A
More also, but it'll be fun work, lots of fun.
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B
PMH thank you so much for being with me today.
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A
Thank you, Jeffrey.
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B
And for those of you watching or listening, thank you for being with us because you are the reason that we are here.
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A
Book four in the New Thinking Allow Dialogue series Charles T. Tart 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology. Now available on Amazon.
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New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cihs.edu. you can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingallowed.org sa.