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New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Neurodiversity, Part 5: An Apology with Annika and Tristan
01:02:06
Neurodiversity, Part 5: An Apology with Annika and Tristan Annika and Tristan are two distinct persons occupying a single body. To our knowledge, their case is unique and neither understood nor even described in the psychiatric and psychological litera...
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- [00:00]
A
Book three in the new Thinking Allowed dialogue series is UFOs and UAP. Are we really Alone? Now available on Amazon, New Thinking Allowed.
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B
Is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cihs.edu.
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C
You can now download a free PDF copy of issue number eight of the new Thinking Allowed magazine or order a beautiful printed copy. Go to newthinkingallowed.org thinking allowed conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove. Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Today is a very special program. I'm here live in the studio in Albuquerque. Of course, when I say live, it's live for us now because we're face to face. Obviously when you viewer are watching, it will be recorded. But I'm here with Anika and Tristan who haven't been with me in Albuquerque for a year. We're going to update their experiences and their situation. For those of you who are unfamiliar, Annika and Tristan in my mind represent two souls in one body. We've done four previous interviews. I'm going to link to one of those interviews right now, upper right hand corner of your screen. If you have a computer that can catch that link. I think this interview will mean so much more to you if you've watched one or more of the previous interviews. Welcome, Anika and Tristan.
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A
Hi Jeffrey. It's great to be here.
- [02:23]
D
Hi Jeff. It's a pleasure.
- [02:26]
C
It's a pleasure for me to be with each of you as a matter of fact, not just a pleasure, a great joy as a matter of fact. Nevertheless, what we're going to be today is to address some of the most troubling aspects of your adjusting to life here on earth in this very unusual situation, particularly when we consider Annika, you found yourself at basically the age of 8 in the body of an adult male. And without having that male around or any parents or really much in the way of guidance, you had to make your way in the world as an 8 year old in an adult male body. And I know that was extremely difficult.
- [03:17]
A
It was, it was unbelievably difficult. When Tristan died, from my perspective in 2016, I was left with nothing, no one to guide me, nobody to help me. I was just kind of left with a body and suddenly had to survive. And so to survive, you know, it wasn't easy and I Had to do a lot of hard things to survive. And one of those things was sex work. And that's something we didn't talk in the previous videos because we wanted to focus on the soul aspect of things and how Tristan and my relationship. And so we don't want to go into, like, the nitty gritty. That might be controversial, not say that two souls in one body isn't controversial to some people. But this was a subject that, you know, sex work is a subject that's heavily stigmatized by our society. And as an 8 year old in a body with no skills, I didn't, like, come to earth or enter the body. With knowing how to do something, there was only one real avenue. And this is something that impacts a lot of trans women too. A lot of trans women get into sex work because that becomes their only option to survive. And in my case, I didn't have any marketable skills. I didn't know how to get a job if I wanted one. I didn't know, you know, didn't know how to do a resume, nothing. So all I had was like, the Internet and I realized people would pay to see me. And so I went into sex work to survive. I still had to pay for my apartment. I still had to pay for all of my bills. There wasn't any easy road. It was like, even if you're eight and you're in a body that's not your own, you still have to survive in our society. There's no easy way out of it. And it was a really challenging existence those five years.
- [05:07]
C
Explain for our viewers who haven't watched the earlier video that when Tristan was 22 years old, you sort of appeared and appeared as a presence inside of his brain, inside of his mind. Took a long time for him to even figure out and for you to figure out what was going on. And then gradually, you began to take over control of the body. Tristan began experiencing long periods where he was just not there. Like a week would pass, two weeks would pass. He felt he was dying and he had affection for you and wanted you to enjoy life on Earth and have the body. He, in effect, vanished for five years, until through some sort of process which you described in the earlier interview, you summoned him back.
- [06:12]
A
Mm, that's right. Tristan, do you want to talk to that a little bit?
- [06:18]
D
Yeah. So Basically, at age 22, Annika entered my body. I wasn't entirely aware of it. There were some early signs that I just wrote off as nothing. And then by the time she was about seven years old, it was actually, I think it was her eighth birthday is when everything kind of happens. I started to realize that I was dying. Now I was an atheist, a materialist. I didn't believe in souls or spirits or anything. So it was really challenging for me to suddenly be jumping from my perspective through time. Suddenly I was. All of a sudden a week would pass and I wouldn't know what happened to that week. I would just jump through time. And then all of a sudden it was two weeks and then it was three weeks and then it got to be about a month or two. And then I realized, oh my God, I'm dying. This must be what dying is. I feel like I'm about to blip out of existence. And at this point, Annika was so. She had so much control over the body and she was such I couldn't ignore the spiritual reality of what was going on. And so out of love and compassion, I told her that I loved her and that I wanted her to have the body. I wanted her to live on, I wanted her to live a full life. I fully expected to die. I had no intention of coming back. I thought this was really it. And I recognized her soul and I wanted her to live and experience earth. And so that was it. I made my peace.
- [07:56]
C
And then I gather you felt you didn't have a lot of choice in the matter.
- [08:01]
D
No, it felt very much out of my control. It just like I didn't. And that was one of the scariest things about it. I was terrified. Suddenly I was jumping through time and losing track and she was doing things and I just, yeah, I didn't have any control and I was scared and so I made my peace. And then.
- [08:23]
C
And you realize you were leaving someone with an 8 year old mentality in control of the body.
- [08:30]
D
Exactly. And there was nothing I could do. So the most I was able to do because I felt so limited in my control over the situation is I left her recordings on her phone. You know, when I realized, oh, I've got the body and I'm here, I would quick hit record and I would just leave a message and I tried to give her advice and try to be, you know, give her encouragement and to just give her lots of love. And then that was it, that was all I could do. And I made some letters to family letting them know somewhat what was happening and then just that was it.
- [09:04]
C
And it was like a five year jump in time.
- [09:06]
D
Yes, yes. I then jumped from the very beginning, like January something of 2017 to suddenly all of, to February of 2017, 2021. So it was this massive five year jump where everything changed. And we've kind of discussed it in previous videos, but yeah, it was a heck of a ride for sure.
- [09:35]
C
And so now Annika has taken up sex work.
- [09:40]
D
Yes. So I'll give it back to her.
- [09:44]
A
Yeah. So I took up sex work to survive since Tristan was gone and he could no longer support me, he could no longer help in any way. He was just disappearing. And on one hand, I was extremely like, I was in grief over him. And the other time I was really excited about life and getting to explore all these new wonderful things, but I still had to face the reality that I really didn't know what I was doing. And I kept like, really learning that hard lesson of I don't know what I'm doing over and over and over and over again. Being taken advantage of by people, getting into abusive situations, really struggling to make friends, and really not understanding that I was extremely different from most people. And the biggest challenge for me was just trying to pay bills, trying to survive, trying to keep a roof over my head and Tristan's cat who came with me. So it was a really scary time. And so sex work is what got me through it. And sex work is heavily stigmatized and people think of it as bad or gross or.
- [10:55]
C
Well, I think in our culture we have a sort of a divided opinion and for the most part it is stigmatized. People look down on sex workers. It's something it's considered unsanitary and worse than that. And at the same time, there's this kind of admiration. I know there have been maybe 10 Academy Awards for best actress for playing sex workers. One was just awarded this year.
- [11:28]
A
Yeah, when Hollywood does it, it's tasteful, but when everyday women do it, it's degrading and looked down on. So the hypocrisy is. It's definitely annoying as a former sex worker, but yeah, it was a really challenging existence. And one of the advantages that helped me is it got me really comfortable with my body and it got me really comfortable talking to people and being around people. And I thought it was helpful to my growth at the time. No longer. I'm not involved any longer in sex work. But at the time it was something that helped me empower me. And it is also the world's oldest profession. It's not like there's ever been a time where there hasn't been sex work. It's like it is baked into human existence and our society. But unfortunately, we just kind of Shovel it under the carpet and just kind of ignore the women who are in it.
- [12:27]
C
Well, that was sort of the beginning of this adventure for you. I know things got much worse from that because after. After we did the four interviews about a year ago, I began hearing from people who said, how can you put this horrible person on your program? Don't you know that he. She. It is a complete fraud, faking mental illness, trying to groom young people into sexual activity. And, I mean, people had an attitude, a really, really strong attitude. And I began hearing from dozens and dozens of people. In fact, even yesterday, one came in like that. I was surprised and maybe a little bit unprepared for it. So we have to address that situation.
- [13:29]
A
And I want to apologize to you for not briefing you completely on my past situation. It was something really embarrassing that I didn't want to talk about. It was something that I felt ashamed about. And also, it was painful for me. It was still hurting me at the time.
- [13:44]
C
Well, you didn't exactly hide it. We talked about it briefly.
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A
Yeah, briefly.
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C
I didn't appreciate the impact of it.
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A
All, and I don't know if I expected the impact to be that big, but it makes sense. We had a really big following, and we'll get into that, too. But I do want to apologize to you for not as being as upfront, maybe as I could have been, and also for bringing controversy onto the channel. That wasn't my intent. I really just wanted to talk about souls and my unique existence with Tristan and all of the fun spiritual and UFO stuff. And I really didn't want to go back and address this really painful part in my past.
- [14:26]
C
Well, let's go into how it came about.
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A
Okay. So. Well, after Tristan came back, it took us about nine months to get through the denial and figure out our situation sort of phase.
- [14:41]
C
So we're now in 20.
- [14:42]
A
Yeah, 2021. So early 2021, Tristan came back, and then we took about nine months fighting over the body. And, I mean, like, we were dealing with a lot of medical issues because of it and really struggling and, like, rocking, sensory issues, stimming. It was like the body just couldn't handle what was going on. We were tearing the body apart.
- [15:02]
C
You somehow brought him back.
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A
Yes.
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C
And I gather you did it without really knowing what you were doing.
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A
Yeah, I didn't really know what I was doing. I suddenly realized that there was something different about consciousness, and I had synesthesia, and I wanted to understand what that was because I noticed colors could trip me through different feelings and emotions. And then Also trip me through sort of, like, different memories and that there was something there. And I thought, maybe I'm seeing the wiring in the brain or something. And so, I mean, it was the pandemic. I was bored. I was doing really well. I wasn't in distress or anything. I was just kind of like, well, I kind of want to experiment with this. And so I took some really high doses of drugs, and I just was like, I'm going to try this. And then I was going to. I basically turned all of the lights on in my apartment and changed them to multicolored. And I watched, like, fractal patterns of colors to try and see how much throughput I could handle of these feelings and sensations and things. And then afterwards, I felt almost, like, in shock. And then I sat down, and I went into a deep meditative state unlike anyone that I've. Any state that I've ever been in before. And this was really my first time meditating, so I didn't even really know what I was doing then. I just felt really compelled to do it. And so I sat there and I meditated. And I went into a really deep, deep state. And I experienced ego death and just kind of dissolved. Like, my. My. Everything dissolved. And then just as I lost. Because I lost consciousness right after this, right as I. About. About right when I lost consciousness, I saw these two colors. And one was, like, this pink color, and the other one was, like this green, but the green was faded. And I realized that I was looking at our soul colors. And immediately I gravitated towards Tristan's because I was, like, green, and I recognized him. And then I just channeled all of my energy into it and then lost consciousness for a bit. I don't remember what happened for I think it was maybe like, 10 minutes or something. And then I came to. And when I came to, I thought I had broken something, that I had damaged the brain. I felt physically ill. I felt. It was like coming down off of the. Like climbing a mountain or something. It was just something so overwhelming. And I was just struggling and struggling, and I was like, I don't know what to do. I feel like I've broken something. And then all of a sudden, I heard Tristan's voice, and he said, you should probably lay down. So I was, like, really confused about it because I was like, where did this other voice come from? And then I was like, yeah, I guess you're right. I probably should lay down. And so I did. And then Tristan was in a really confused state. And I think we Talked about this on the last one. But eventually he was then back from that point on. And so from there, it was nine months. The first week, we were more open to it, and we accepted that we were together again. But it felt very much like a dream. Like, I couldn't believe it. He couldn't believe. Had a dream, surreal, like, quality to it that week. And then after that week, we kind of snapped back to society's reality. So suddenly we were in denial, and we're like, how could this be? This. This isn't real. This isn't like, I. I'm ignoring you. I didn't even call him Tristan. I called him T. I didn't. I didn't even want to say his name. And he was calling me not Annika. He was calling me a. So we were just like. I would be like, t, we need to take care of the trash or something like that, you know, and then he'd be like, all right, A. I'll. I'll do the trash. You know, necessarily best impression of him. And, yeah, that's how it was for, like, nine months of just struggling and trying to figure it out. And then finally, we had this really powerful dream that we talked in another interview with Tristan's grandmother, and he made peace with his grandmother's death, who passed away while he was gone. And we woke up from that, and we were like, we need to address this. Like, this is real. This is. This is something that we need to confront and contend with because it's not going to go away. And we turn to each other for the first time and started having, like, an open, real, open dialogue and acknowledging each other as human beings, as souls, and, you know, allowing each other to love each other and to be open with each other and share emotions. And it was hard. I mean, like, this wasn't like, oh, you're back and everything's fine. It was like, you know, I had my own issues of abandonment and fear. And also, him being back triggered me, like, made me feel like a young child, because suddenly I was like, back to when I was in the body with him. And I was so scared of him taking the body away from me now that I had had it for, you know, five years on my own. I was like, I don't want to lose that autonomy anymore. So it was a really scary first month, which was the November of 2021, and I could barely work to the point where Tristan's mom had to send us money just so that we could survive, because we were spending all day talking to each Other trying to work this out. So it was a really stressful and scary time and maybe not even the most emotionally stable time either. It was extremely difficult for the both of us.
- [20:31]
C
Well, you were a 13 year old.
- [20:33]
A
I was 12 at the time, yeah. Yes.
- [20:35]
C
You had aged from 8 to 12 or 13.
- [20:39]
A
Yes, exactly. Because I turned 13 in December that year. And so when I turned 13, I kind of felt this overwhelming feeling like I wanted to share this. I thought, wow, this is so cool. Like, I loved him so much. I loved our relationship so much. I wanted to share it. I wanted to share it with the world. I wanted to say, look at how cool this is. Look how amazing this is. Look at all the weird things that we can do. And I was so excited. And I felt like that inner. Inner voice telling me, yeah, go public, Go public, you know, show this off. And so Tristan and I at the time were still struggling with our spirituality. What aspects of the spirituality were real? Was this. Just. Did. Was this some sort of spiritual thing?
- [21:26]
C
And so did meaning Dissociative identity disorder, the name for what used to be called multiple personalities disorder.
- [21:36]
A
That's dissociative identity disorder. And that was the only thing I could find online that it explained the situation that I was in. There's no literature or things online saying, oh, well, if you have two souls in a body, here's how you share it. Here's how you navigate switches. So did was the closest thing. And so I was like, well, I want to be a part of this community. I want to make friends who are like us and maybe we can. Can all help each other. And there was this online community called, like, did TikTok? And TikTok was, you know, it's huge. And I was like, really into it. And so I was like, hey, Tristan, can I make a TikTok about us and, you know, share things and, you know, can we do this? And I asked on my 13th birthday because he had said no up until that point, because he was like, no, it's private. It's, you know, this is like, this is really. I don't know how people will react. They don't know. You know, this is like, you know, this could impact our future and everything else. And I was like, but I really feel like we should share it. And so, yeah, on my 13th birthday, I said, I would really like to make a TikTok with you. And so, Tristan, if you would like to explain the whole TikTok, I didn't.
- [22:53]
D
Know what TikTok was. I had just gotten back and When I left, TikTok didn't exist. It was, we had vine and Reddit and Instagram, but no TikTok. And I also, I hadn't realized how much the social media landscape had changed either. It was, I didn't, like, I didn't, I really didn't know what I was. I was getting into and I was a little dazed and confused about things. Not to excuse everything that happened, but just to give you an idea of my mindset.
- [23:28]
A
And I was like, you know, and.
- [23:29]
D
She'S asking me on her 13th birthday. I just abandoned this eight year old girl. After five years, I'm finally back. She's now so much more grown and I'm so out of my element and reality that I'm like, yeah, that's fine.
- [23:43]
C
Well, amongst other things, you found yourself in a body that had been going through the transitioning process.
- [23:50]
D
Yes. So I felt like I didn't have a body. I felt like a ghost. I felt like, where is my body? It was completely unrecognizable to me and just moving around in it and being able to do very simple tasks was hard. And one of the things at the beginning of November was that, and we talked about this a lot, Annika and I was, I felt sick. Even if we leave the body for a time, let's say an hour or so, and the other person has the body, we experience something called spirit sickness, or we call it that when we get back where we feel kind of disconnected from the body and we feel like we have to shake into it and it takes a little bit to get used to it. Usually when one of us is brought back to the body, we're laying down. So that first moment of sitting up and then trying to stand is actually kind of challenging. When you first come back, you just feel like you feel so weak and that the body's just not responding to you. So after five years and the body going through as many changes as it did, I was completely out of it to the point where I felt sick and I felt like I couldn't trust my own judgment either. And so.
- [25:04]
A
I was.
- [25:05]
D
And also I left an atheist and became spiritual. And then when I got back now, I was confronted with the reality of it and also the reality that I didn't die, which was a shock enough in itself because I was like, am I dead? Like, am I still dead? What is this? Where is this place? I can't even begin to describe the confusion. Hollywood makes it easy when you jump through time, like back to the future. But when it actually happens to you. It's not very easy. It's almost sickening because it's so outside your realm of what reality is or what you think reality is.
- [25:42]
C
And for clarity, I think it's useful that our viewers understand. During those five years, you have almost no memory.
- [25:50]
D
No, no. I could have experienced things, and I may have been places in spirit, afterlife. I don't know. But I think maybe it was kind of like when you wake up from a dream or something and it fades really quickly, and if you don't spend that first moment really taking in what happened to you, it kind of fades and you don't remember it. And when I came back to the body In January of 2021 or February of 2021, I was in such a panic state. I thought I was visiting either my girlfriend or my daughter who was at college, and that I had to. That I drove through a snowstorm and that because I was trying to grab onto reality, I was trying to find something to give me some kind of grounding. And so I was like, okay, I must be here. And so I even went back into my childhood and was like, well, if it's a winter storm, we gotta winterize the apartment. We gotta insulate, we gotta do this. We gotta prepare firewood, which was ridiculous. In Portland. Portland's winters are not that rough or difficult. They're very easy. But I kind of reverted to what I knew and how to handle whatever situation I was in. So, yeah, it was extremely disorienting. And for those nine months, I was in complete denial about our situation. I couldn't believe it was real because everything previous in my life, you know, as an atheist, as. Yeah, there was nothing to prepare me for this at all. So it was extremely disorienting and confusing experience. And so, you know, Annika, I was really against the whole TikTok thing at first, but, you know, I wanted to make her happy after everything that she had been through. And so I was like, okay, yeah, make a TikTok, and we'll just post some goofy stuff on it and just have fun with it. It wasn't taken seriously. It was just meant to be kind of fun. Show off some of the goofy stuff that we were doing and working through and highlight some of the glitches and switches and ticks and stuff that we were struggling with. But we're also learning to control at the time because a huge part of this was actually learning how to share the body. So we were still having major issues neurologically just from transferring the body back and forth. And so, yeah, we did the TikTok and I'll pass it to Annika for this.
- [28:28]
A
Okay, so the TikTok. Yeah. So, you know, it started off as something really fun and goofy and it went viral, which was something neither of us expected and it went like really viral. In two weeks we had over 100,000 followers and millions of likes and it was like one of the fastest growing TikToks. It was crazy and like just so many comments and people and at first really felt like, oh my gosh, I found a community. And this is so wonderful and amazing and like, look at this, we're like making people happy and, and people are learning from us and it was just, it was amazing. But then I made a lot of mistakes. I made a lot of mistakes. I didn't take it as seriously or handle it with the gravity that was really needed for our situation. And I didn't think about how other people in the community, the did community were really struggling with this as a disorder and it wasn't something fun or happy for them. It was fun and happy for us just because of who we are and our situation and that we love each other very much and our situation is different. And so I just wanted to share love and laughter and just goof off and not take it seriously. And that was a mistake. And then like there were videos that, you know, looking back, I'm embarrassed about that I wouldn't make today. I learned a lot from that. I was a, as a very cringy 13 year old. I'm still cringy today, but, you know, hopefully less cringy. And so I was really, yeah, not great in some of the videos. And I talked about stuff that I shouldn't have.
- [30:17]
C
And what do you mean when you say you talked about things you shouldn't?
- [30:21]
A
Well, like some weird stuff about like how like how digestion works or like kind of like making like like not the most appropriate jokes or we're talking about some aspects that, you know, people found really uncomfortable or like, like the fact that Tris and I can make each other hallucinate strange things or that, you know, that if we both void the body a little bit, we can like avoid being hungry and stuff that like, that I didn't realize but might be very impressionable to people online, especially minors. And this was another thing too that I totally missed and was a huge mistake of mine that I'm deeply regretful for. And that is like, I didn't, as an 8 year old who immediately got into sex work, I didn't have that same understanding of boundaries. So I was on a platform where there were minors talking about, like, things that might influence them. Right. Like showing the situation. And people were worried because we were so happy and positive that minors might try to copy us or want this as some kind of disorder. Now, I don't know how much of that is on me or on them, but it's still a concern that came up that I ignored, and I shouldn't have. I should have taken it a lot more seriously. And, yeah, and I didn't want to influence minors in that way. And I just didn't think that I was just sharing it with the world. The Internet was the Internet, and I didn't really think more carefully about this. I didn't navigate this like, you know, like I would today.
- [31:53]
C
Do you feel like you owe an apology to anyone?
- [31:56]
A
Yes. Yes, I do. So I just want to apologize to everyone in the DID community. I want to apologize to everybody watching this. I'm really sorry for my behavior on TikTok. I'm really sorry for the Discord server, which we'll get into. I'm sorry for all the mistakes that I've made. I made a lot of them. You know, I was learning. I was new. And like all of you, you know, I'm here on Earth to learn lessons and make mistakes and grow from them, and that's what I'm trying to do. So I just want to apologize to you and all of the viewers watching for my behavior during that time when we were doing the TikTok. You know, I look back on it with a lot of regret, and I just. I want to move on, and I want to move on with all of you. So thank you for allowing me to say that. Please.
- [32:47]
C
You're welcome. I know that wasn't easy.
- [32:55]
A
And I do want to talk about the Discord, too. That came up because I really want to be open about everything. So after the TikTok, we created a discord because at this point, after we went viral, kind of had this idea like, oh, my gosh, this could be, like, a movement of souls. Like, this is something that's resonating with people. Like, oh, my gosh, so many people are into this, and there's so many people who had either multiple souls or did. They were like, oh, my gosh, I'm in the same situation. But, like, my psychiatrist doesn't believe me, and they think that I have psychosis, but I really don't. I really love the other soul that I'm sharing the body with. And so like this, this motivated me, this positiveness that was being created from this motivated me to create, try to create a community. But I wasn't prepared to handle something of that scale. And I was also still trying to work my sex work job because that was the way I was making money. It was the only way I could support myself. So we'd make TikToks during the day and then at night I'd have to go and do camming and what do you call it? Camming. So, like, I didn't do stuff like in person with people. I would just set up like a webcam and I would do like videos and stuff and I would sell them. Today it's like OnlyFans, which a lot of people are probably familiar with. But yeah, I had to work that job on the side and it became unmanageable. I couldn't do the videos and the community and my job all at once. It was too difficult. And at that point in my life, I really wanted to get out of sex work. So I thought, well, if this TikTok thing takes off, maybe I can work on that. And that could be something. I could be an influencer or an entertainer or something and that could get me out of this. Because at that point I was very aware that I was torturing Tristan because he was not happy about the sex work. He came back to the sex work and we didn't know how for him to leave the body at that time, like we were still learning. So sometimes on when I was doing my shows, he had to be there, but he didn't want to be there. And I felt very much. And just being real, I felt very much like it was sort of like either a rape or it was sort of like a sexual. Because he didn't consent to this. He didn't consent to the sex work, he didn't consent to being there. He didn't want to be there. And so I was very aware of the serious that was going on behind the scenes between us because he was miserable.
- [35:27]
C
Now, just to be clear, maybe I'm very old fashioned, but for me, when I think of sex work, I don't think of camming.
- [35:36]
A
I know it's included though. It is.
- [35:39]
C
Okay, but does that mean that you weren't actually having physical contact with other people?
- [35:46]
A
No, no, no. I did it once and I didn't like it and so I just stuck with doing camming.
- [35:53]
C
Okay.
- [35:55]
A
And I did that right, like right around the time Tristan left, I tried it and it just wasn't for me. And I liked being online a lot better, and I liked the energy of people watching and, like, entertaining, and I liked that. But I didn't like the.
- [36:10]
C
I mean, in effect, it would be like stripping.
- [36:14]
A
Yeah, it was like stripping. That's basically what I did. I just stripped online for people. You know, people would like. You know how, like, they do dollars at the strip club. Like, they would send me dollars, and I would do different things and. And entertain. And that's what I did for. For the entire time Tristan was gone.
- [36:29]
C
Okay. Okay.
- [36:31]
A
So, yeah. So from there, created this discord, and it got really big. And so I had to bring in a lot of moderators for it. And I just. They were just volunteers, and I was struggling to manage the political situation that was going on, and I was just trying to make snap decisions, and I was completely inexperienced. I had no idea what I was doing. And the discord blew up to about 2,000 people overnight, to the point where we couldn't allow any more people in. So this is like, if you want to think about it as like an online forum, sort of like an online community. And it was completely, completely unmanageable. And. And I still wasn't thinking, oh, if, you know, there's. There could be minors there and things like that. And other people were. And what ended up happening was, I think it was like a girl in one of the public channels started talking about periods and, like, and how to deal with multiple souls while having a period. And one of the moderators suggested that, you know, why don't we have, like, a channel or we do some learning for, like. Because I wanted to make this community something where everybody could learn. Because I was also deeply aware that a lot of the people who were resonating were also traumatized and were struggling, and they maybe didn't have the best home lives or that, you know, their family didn't accept them. So I wanted to make this a safe space for everyone. And I didn't want it to just be for did. I wanted it for. To also be for people who really didn't see themselves as being did, but saw themselves as souls. I wanted it to be this big umbrella, a community where people could learn. And so one of the moderators suggested, well, let's make a channel for sex work. And like, maybe. And they said that they had it, and it's like a certificate for instructing sex or not sex work. Sex ed. Sorry, let's make a channel for sex ed. And like. And then I also have, like, a teacher certificate to teach this. So like, maybe we can do, like, Q&As or something, like a controlled thing. And ultimately, I'm not going to remember the perfect details of this. And so I apologize to all of you if I'm not getting this right. I'm trying to be from my perspective, being as open and honest as possible from what I experienced and what happened. And that was a mistake. That was not something that I couldn't verify their certificates. I couldn't verify that person. And it was a mistake to even think of it. And I really shouldn't have allowed minors in there at all because I wasn't. I wasn't able to, like, I wasn't able to take responsibility and look very carefully at everything that was going on. And I was just allowing volunteers to. And it was ultimately that whole server was my responsibility, and I was responsibility for the safety of everyone in there. And I just.
- [39:12]
C
What about Tristan?
- [39:14]
A
Well, Tristan was still like. And I'll let him speak for himself later, but Tristan was still, like, in a really confused state, and I was kind of taking control of the situation. And I thought, well, I've been online for the last 10 years. I know what I'm doing, and, you know, Tristan doesn't. And I was, you know, I kind of even, like, discounted Tristan's opinion on things. And I really, you know, took it on myself to do the whole thing. And I thought I knew what I was doing, and I definitely did not. So I'll let Tristan talk for himself at some point. But for me, it was. I was the one who really drove everything. So I really take responsibility for everything.
- [40:01]
C
You were actually giving out credentials for people to become certified by you?
- [40:07]
A
Oh, no, not certified by me. They claimed that they had a certificate that allowed them to teach sex ed to minors. That's what it was.
- [40:17]
C
Oh, you didn't give out?
- [40:18]
A
No, I didn't give that out. They claimed that they had gone through this teaching process and had gotten the certificate and so having, like, a channel for sex ed teaching where they could ask questions and that this person who claimed to have a certificate could respond, you know, And I just. I didn't verify. I just. I was making mistake after mistake after mistake, and I was getting more and more stressed. And that was right around the time that the community, the TikTok community learned that I was a sex worker, because originally they didn't know. And so. And that I had brought some of my friends who had moderated some of my camming channels. So, like, they and close friends of mine that, like, I considered Just friends. I was like, hey, I'm doing this new thing. Join the server. And, you know, like, because that's where I'm gonna be from now on, and I'm gonna try and get out of sex work, and maybe I can do something with this TikTok thing. And when people learned that I had brought people from that community over into this community and that all, like, the sex ed stuff and I was a sex worker, suddenly it just blew up completely. And it was too many mistakes, too many failures on my part, and it just exploded.
- [41:30]
C
So the image, I gather, that was created in the minds of other people is that you're trying to recruit minors.
- [41:37]
A
Into sex work or exposing them to sex work, or that I was grifting or that I was, you know, as a sex worker, I was trying to bring people from TikTok into my, like, so that they would pay me for my sex work, which was not it. I was desperately trying to keep them separate. Like, I was, like, trying to put up a wall between the two, but there wasn't a wall. And one of the mistakes I made is I used my cam name because as a. As a cam girl, you use stage names so that men can't find you, so that, you know, someone who comes to your show can't show up at your house or look up your information. So I went by the name Jesse. And then when Tristan came into the mix, I was like, well, I already have a stage named Jesse, so I can continue using that, but what name are we going to give you? And the perfect name, the only name that was just perfect was James, so that we would be Jesse and James. And I didn't get this from the Western outlaw. It was from Pokemon. So I was a big fan of Pokemon growing up. Tristan watched it at some point with his ex when he was an adult. And so I grew up on the show, and I loved Team Rocket. They were so cute. And, yeah, they were the bad guys, but I just thought it was so cool that we could be Jesse and James. And so even when considering giving myself a different stage name for TikTok, I just thought, jesse and James, Jesse and James, that would be so cool. And so that's the names we went with. So that was also a mistake. But I didn't use my full camming name for it. I just went by Jesse on TikTok. And I just hoped that nobody would find. Because I went by Jesse Hart in my camming, so I was really hoping that nobody would find, like, they wouldn't know the other Half of the name that would get them to figure out.
- [43:29]
C
That I assume they did.
- [43:31]
A
They did because I went viral. And so people who knew about me camming found my TikTok and then like, posted, isn't this Jessie Hart from, you know, Chatterbait? Isn't this her? And so. And then people looked me up, and suddenly people were looking at my camming work, and that wall just crumbled, and I wasn't able to control it anymore.
- [43:56]
D
So.
- [43:57]
A
And at that point, people's attitudes towards us completely changed, and they thought that I must be. And a part of, you know, there was a little bit of that stigma now because now, like, the wider public was getting exposed to somebody who was in sex work. And immediately some really bad connotations maybe have popped into people's minds. So it was like a confluence of different things that happened. But ultimately I shut down the Discord. The users actually shut it down because they, like, the moderators, the whole thing blew up. But ultimately, like, that was the time I was like, thank God it's over. It's, you know, it's shut down. And I just want to apologize. If I endangered anyone or put anyone at risk, I apologize. That was not my intent. I just kept making mistake after mistake. And so I am sorry for the way that I poorly managed the Discord, poorly managed the TikTok, and I am deeply regretful for these mistakes, and I hope one day maybe you can forgive me.
- [44:55]
C
So were you in any way on discord or on TikTok asking for money?
- [45:02]
A
No. I thought about setting up a Patreon so that because I was trying to transition from CamWorks, I tried to set up a Patreon so that people could support Jesse and James so that we can continue making TikToks. And TikTok has a creator program, and I think I earned maybe 100 or $200 from that at one point. Just from people sending these little, like, likes and little sprites and stuff. It's hard to describe, but, like, they would send, like, little tokens, basically, and while we were doing, like, live streams and stuff and so didn't make really any money from it, certainly not enough to survive. But I thought maybe this would be a possibility. I could finally be free of sex work and I'd no longer be torturing Tristan and like this. This happened at the perfect time. And finally a way out. Because I've been looking for the last several months on a way out to get out of cam work. But I also want to stress that this situation wasn't Like, I didn't make up Tristan to suddenly find a way to get out. It was just like, oh, you're here. And like, you know, it happened naturally and organically. It was like, you're here. I want to make a ticket with you. And, oh, it went viral. Maybe. Maybe we can get out of sex, work through this. And, you know, like, this is such a blessing. And then. And then it crumbled. And I was absolutely devastated. And I didn't want to quit it. I really didn't. And I fought with Tristan.
- [46:32]
C
Let's talk about that. You fought with Tristan because for the most part, you and Tristan were getting along well with each other at that point.
- [46:42]
A
Yeah, the whole TikTok thing drew, like, just put a huge wedge on our relationship and on our progress. And I really, really, really, really, really struggled. I wanted to continue. I wanted to keep making videos. I was like. And also there was, like. I felt like there was a lot of defamination against me. Do you know what I mean? Like, I felt attacked. And so I was responding defensively. And people were saying, oh, you know, they were soliciting minors, and all these horrible rumors started, and people were posting really nasty things. And I was like, well, I want to stand up, I want to fight. I don't want to be, you know, knocked down by this. And, yeah, I've made mistakes, but they're no big deal. And I was. I was really dismissive of the concerns. I was really dismissive of the people who brought these things up. And I just wanted to fight, fight, fight. And Tristan was like, absolutely not. We're going to stop. Because at this point, we had gotten death threats, we had gotten doxxed, and our information was being posted on actual literal hate groups. I think it was like, it was that kiwi site, that's what they call it. I don't think it exists anymore. But basically, it was like, hate groups had my information. People were like, you know, you should go there and do something. And so Tristan was terrified. And I still was like, I'm not. I don't want to give this up. And a part of that was that I didn't want to let go of that idea of, like, a soul movement or that idea of helping people. And it felt like, you know, we've talked about that mission that I feel like I'm on here on Earth, and I didn't want to give it up for that reason. And so Tristan and I fought, like. I mean, like, yelling at each other. You know what I mean? Like, really, really going at it which, you know, for considering it's all in one body, it must have been quite the sight to see. But it was really difficult, and we were really scared. Like, how do we manage this? How do we manage not being. Wanting to be around each other when we share a body? And there were a few times, because, like, if you're fighting with a loved one or a family member, you can go in separate rooms and calm down and cool off. But we were stuck not only in a body, but feeling each other's emotions. So, like, there were just days where we would lay on the bed and it would feel like the body was dying. The blood would be like ice cold, and the bones would hurt, and it just, like, everything felt just horrible. And we just lay there fuming quietly, not saying a word, just fuming next to each other because we were in such opposition to what we wanted. And it also impact Tristan's family because people actually, like, looked his family members up and was, like, anywhere that they could, like, make an impact on our lives, they did. It's like they went to family members and they were like, this person's doing this bad thing, and they're faking and grifting, and it scared his family members. And so I also want to apologize to Tristan's family. I am sorry for putting you all through that. It was a really scary time. And I want to thank you for, like, the financial assistance during that time to help us get through that. I was not good, and I made a lot of mistakes, and I'm sorry. And also, I love you and thank you for forgiving me, because we've since worked it out since then.
- [50:12]
C
That was years ago.
- [50:14]
A
Yeah, that was three years ago. And so. So eventually I came around and I said, I love you, Tristan. And he would read books to me every night, and he read stuff like To Kill a Mockingbird to help me understand some of the stigma we would face or the way people act. And he just sort of just tried to educate me and say, listen, sometimes you have to know when to bail. Sometimes you have to know when to retreat. And sometimes it doesn't work work out, but it can work out for the better. And so I took that advice, and we just started focusing on our home life. And he completely cut the Internet. And I mean, like, we still had it, but, like, wasn't allowed on social media, couldn't do anything. And he would often say, you know, I want to give you a 90s experience. You know what I mean? Like, we're disconnected, and you have to go outside if you want entertainment. So that's what my life became. And I think we made, like, one or two videos on TikTok. I kind of pushed him to after that where just to highlight some of the switches because I wanted to educate still, and he was still kind of open, but then eventually he was like, that's it. Like, we're done. So, yeah, that was the TikTok situation. And then we were both really traumatized and scared from it, and we had to work through our relationship and work through the dynamic and the spirituality aspect of it, which we hadn't even addressed at that point. We were still in denial about the spiritual aspects in some regards, and we were looking for answers. And then it wasn't until, I think it was that summer in 2022 that I mentioned to Tristan, hey, the New York Times published this article about UFOs, and they're actually a real thing. And it blew Tristan away. He was like, whoa, this is amazing. This incredible. I can't believe this is real.
- [52:09]
C
I know for a fact that you and Tristan have had a very accelerated spiritual growth program from this point on. And we'll do a whole separate discussion about that.
- [52:22]
A
Perfect. But I do want Tristan to be able to say his piece, so I'll give the body to him. Okay. Hi.
- [52:33]
D
I was really out for that one. Yeah. So I don't really know where to start, but I guess I'll just start by saying, you know, I'm sorry as well. I messed up. I really was confused, but there's still no excuse. I was a bad dad to the TikTok community. I was a bad. I don't know. I just.
- [52:57]
C
How were you a bad dad to the TikTok community?
- [53:00]
D
Because I felt like. Because, I don't know. I'm a very protective person and especially towards kids, and I felt like I really failed the kids of that community because I wasn't thinking about them. You know, I was just thinking about, you know, the TikTok making videos, and I kind of got wound up in it, and I didn't really think about, like, the protections that would be required for that kind of situation. And so, yeah, I messed up.
- [53:25]
C
And I think what you're saying is you. You made your condition to seem very enticing.
- [53:32]
D
Yes. Yes. And that wasn't the intent, but that's how it came across, because we were having really fun with it and doing goofy things. And on top of that, with the Discord server that Annika mentioned. Yeah. The last thing that I remember of the Discord server is that Anika and I were gonna do narrate a book in one of the audio channels and we were going to read the Hobbit to people and I was going to do the voice of Gandalf and she was going to do the voice of Bilbo and we were going to have fun with it. And I was so disappointed that that fell through. And that's what I wanted to bring to that community, is fun laughter, helping raise people up. Because I know that a lot of people were dealing with trauma and things like that and struggling with their condition. And I wanted to make a really fun special. And Annika and I were in alignment on that. That was something we both felt passionate about and unfortunately, I just messed it up.
- [54:35]
C
How did you mess it up?
- [54:37]
A
Well.
- [54:40]
D
I should have had a bigger role in it. I really defaulted to Annika. I was kind of scared of the situation and also scared of really not knowing what I was getting into and what was going on and still feeling confused from coming back. And so I wish I had just kind of gotten my bearings a little faster and been able to handle it in the way I handle situations.
- [55:03]
C
Well, I'm still puzzled a little bit and maybe it's not necessary to go into all the details, but what would you say is the worst thing that happened?
- [55:14]
D
I think the worst thing that happened was the. The sex ed thing because I also didn't check into the verifications of this individual. I also didn't. I could have had a bigger role in making that decision, saying, no, this is inappropriate, or restricting the server to not include minors. It was really a lapse in judgment. And I think that was the worst thing, is not taking a more protective stance to protect kids. And I think that was my failing.
- [55:47]
C
So, yeah, I know that you and Annika have now both apologized for this. I know you don't feel good about it. You're sorry for what happened, but I think it's fair to say that over the last three years or so, you've moved on, your life has taken a different direction.
- [56:06]
D
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, those three years have been an incredible healing journey for us and we've matured. I think Annika wants to say some pieces, so I'll give it back to her. But I just want to say that from that point on, it really humbled us. It really taught us a lot about ourselves and how to address this. And I think going forward, we wanted to address this with the seriousness and the gravity that Annika mentioned that. That it really deserves. Because after the whole TikTok thing. We were still left with this. We were still left with this situation, and we were still left with going, wow, people really don't understand consciousness or souls, and they don't understand all these things that we're learning. And so we still felt compelled to. We just had a lot of learning that we needed to do. We just had a lot of growing that year, and so we did. And we learned from. From our mistakes, and we really. Those were three years to think on everything that went wrong. And also, I was really afraid of any kind of public attention for this. And it took me a long time just to come around to being okay with going on this show. I mean, that first interview, I was scared. I was like, I can't believe we're doing this. And I had this long conversation with my family and my mom saying, we've never done anything like this, and what if, like, the. You know, it goes south, like, with the. You know, with the TikTok. And we really talked it out as a family, and ultimately, we made the decision of love. Like, we're coming at this from a place of love and compassion and wanting to help and being of service and wanting to show people, and we still. We still want to do that. And so knowing that that was our intent and that's how we wanted to address it and face it, we made the decision to come onto your show. And I'll give it to Annika, because I think she wanted to talk about those few years.
- [58:09]
A
Yeah, so those three years, I went from 13 to 16, and they were huge because Tristan now was back. And so he went and got a job because he actually had skills. He actually could do things. He actually knew how to do, like a resume and write things up, and he could handle the finances and everything. And so suddenly I had a partner in life that could help me and give me space to grow and to mature and to learn lessons. And, you know, it was so fundamental to my growth as a human being. All of these things that I missed those five years trying to figure it out on my own. Now I had someone it took me a little bit to trust. You know, I was a bit, like. I felt a little bit like a wild animal or something when, you know, like, at first, because I was, like, still insisting on doing things my way. But over time, I learned a lot of lessons, and I grew and I matured and I faced, you know, obstacles and challenges that helped me grow and mature and learn lessons of compassion and forgiveness and to handle myself better in a more mature fashion. So, yeah, those three years were absolutely huge for me and my growth as a human being.
- [59:32]
C
It's a happy ending.
- [59:34]
A
Yeah.
- [59:37]
C
Well, Annika and Tristan, I want to thank both of you for your honesty, for your willingness to acknowledge mistakes, for your willingness to apologize to me and. And to other people who may be listening or watching. And it's very important, I think, the gifts that you do have to offer to humanity. That's why we're here now, and we will continue.
- [60:04]
A
Thank you. Thank you so much, Jeffrey.
- [60:05]
C
Well, thank you for coming to Albuquerque. Thank you for being with me.
- [60:12]
A
Absolutely. It's been an honor and a pleasure.
- [60:14]
D
Yeah, it's been great being here.
- [60:15]
C
Jeff and I feel the same way. And for those of you watching or listening, thank you for being with us because you are the reason that we are here. Foreign.
- [60:51]
A
In the New Thinking Allowed dialogue series is UFOs and UAP. Are we really Alone? Now available on Amazon, New Thinking Allowed.
- [61:01]
B
Is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cihs.edu.
- [61:29]
C
You can now download a free PDF copy of issue number eight of the new Thinking Allowed magazine or order a beautiful printed copy copy go to newthinkingallowed.org.