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Neurodiversity, Part 5: An Apology with Annika and Tristan

Wed Apr 30 2025

Neurodiversity, Part 5: An Apology with Annika and Tristan Annika and Tristan are two distinct persons occupying a single body. To our knowledge, their case is unique and neither understood nor even described in the psychiatric and psychological litera...

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Neurodiversity, Part 5: An Apology with Annika and Tristan"

New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast | Host: Jeffrey Mishlove
Release Date: April 30, 2025
Guest(s): Annika and Tristan

Episode Overview

This deeply personal episode features Annika and Tristan, two individuals who share one body but identify as separate souls. In the fifth part of their ongoing series, they return to address difficult chapters from their past, particularly the experiences, controversies, and criticisms that emerged from their online presence, involvement in sex work, and management of digital communities. The central purpose is honest reflection, issuing public apologies, and sharing the lessons learned through adversity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background: Two Souls, One Body

Annika and Tristan revisit their extraordinary story: Annika, with the mind of an eight-year-old, took over Tristan’s body after his disappearance at age 22.
Jeffrey Mishlove (03:17): “Annika, you found yourself at basically the age of 8 in the body of an adult male… You had to make your way in the world as an 8 year old in an adult male body. And I know that was extremely difficult.”

2. Annika's Struggle and Sex Work

Annika discusses the five-year period when Tristan was absent and she had to survive with little guidance, leading her to sex work.
Annika (03:17-05:07): “I was just kind of left with a body and suddenly had to survive… one of those things was sex work… I didn’t know how to get a job if I wanted one. I didn’t know… how to do a resume, nothing.”
Reflection on the societal stigma towards sex work, especially for trans women, and how it facilitated Annika’s personal growth and body comfort despite its challenges.

3. Tristan's Return & Sharing the Body

Tristan recounts the experience of gradually losing time and control over his body, ultimately letting Annika take over out of love and compassion.
Tristan (06:18): “At age 22, Annika entered my body. I wasn’t entirely aware of it… I started to realize that I was dying… I told her that I loved her and that I wanted her to have the body. I wanted her to live on.”
He ultimately re-emerged after about five years through an unconventional meditative experience initiated by Annika, leading to intense months of negotiation for body control and adjustment.

4. The Viral TikTok & Discord Era

Annika and Tristan describe how their story became a sensation on TikTok, amassing over 100,000 followers in just two weeks.
Annika (28:28): “It went viral… just so many comments and people… I found a community. And this is so wonderful and amazing… But then I made a lot of mistakes.”
Mistakes included inappropriate content, lack of boundary awareness, and insufficient consideration of the vulnerable DID (dissociative identity disorder) community, particularly regarding the influence on minors.

5. Controversy, Criticism, and Apologies

The episode details the blowback: accusations of fraud, grooming, and recruitment into sex work after the revelation of Annika’s sex work background and management missteps on Discord.
Jeffrey (12:27): “People said, how can you put this horrible person on your program? Don’t you know that he. She. It is a complete fraud, faking mental illness, trying to groom young people into sexual activity…”
Annika (13:28/31:55): Publicly apologizes for lack of disclosure, mismanagement of platforms, and any real or perceived endangerment, especially to minors. “I just want to apologize to everyone in the DID community… I made a lot of mistakes… I was learning. I was new.”

6. Discord Specifics

The Discord server spiraled out of control; Annika acknowledges failing to verify moderators/sex-ed facilitators’ credentials, not adequately protecting minors, and blurring boundaries between online communities.
The choice of “Jessie and James” as online aliases (a nod to Team Rocket in Pokémon) unintentionally connected sex work and public platforms, compounding confusion and mistrust.
Annika (43:56): “People who knew about me camming found my TikTok… people were looking at my camming work, and that wall just crumbled…”

7. Dealing with the Fallout & Moving Forward

The collapse of these online communities led to personal trauma, public doxxing, threats, and harm to Tristan’s family.
Annika and Tristan grappled with intense conflict, emotions, and the reality of living as two souls navigating shared consequences.
Annika (50:11): “I also want to apologize to Tristan’s family. I am sorry for putting you all through that… I love you and thank you for forgiving me.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Annika on Sex Work:
“Sex work is heavily stigmatized and people think of it as bad or gross… but it is also the world’s oldest profession… it is baked into human existence.” (11:28)
Annika on Influencing Minors:
"I didn’t have that same understanding of boundaries. So I was on a platform where there were minors talking about, like, things that might influence them... especially minors. And this was another thing too that I totally missed and was a huge mistake of mine." (30:20)
Annika’s Public Apology:
“I just want to apologize to everyone in the DID community… I’m here on Earth to learn lessons and make mistakes and grow from them, and that’s what I’m trying to do.” (31:55)
Tristan’s Reflection:
“I was a bad dad to the TikTok community… I really failed the kids of that community because I wasn’t thinking about them.” (52:56)
Jeffrey’s Perspective:
“It’s very important, I think, the gifts that you do have to offer to humanity. That’s why we’re here now, and we will continue.” (59:36)

Important Timestamps

03:17 — Annika describes the initial survival struggles, leading to sex work.
06:18 — Tristan recounts losing control, Annika taking over.
28:28 — The TikTok story: going viral, making mistakes, and community impact.
31:55 — Annika’s formal apology to the DID community and viewers.
36:31 — Discord creation, rapid growth, and mismanagement details.
43:56 — The collapse: doxxing, exposure, and public backlash.
50:11 — Apology to Tristan’s family and impact on personal relationships.
52:56 — Tristan's apology for not being protective enough.
56:06 — Reflections on growth, healing, and commitment to greater care.
58:08 — Annika on personal growth from 13 to 16 with Tristan's support.
59:36 — Gratitude, closure, and reaffirmation to keep sharing their story.

Language & Tone

The tone throughout the conversation is raw, honest, self-reflective, and at times emotional. Both Annika and Tristan vacillate between youthful earnestness and mature accountability. Jeffrey Mishlove provides a compassionate, nonjudgmental presence, guiding the discussion toward meaningful introspection and broader learning.

Conclusion

Annika and Tristan’s story is one of hardship, mistakes, and considerable personal growth. This episode serves as a brave act of public accountability—offering sincere apologies for past actions, illuminating the complexities of navigating neurodiversity and internet fame, and demonstrating the human capacity for learning and forgiveness. The conversation sets the stage for deeper explorations of spiritual growth and healing in future episodes.

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Transcript

A (0:00)

Book three in the new Thinking Allowed dialogue series is UFOs and UAP. Are we really Alone? Now available on Amazon, New Thinking Allowed.

B (0:11)

Is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cihs.edu.

C (0:39)

You can now download a free PDF copy of issue number eight of the new Thinking Allowed magazine or order a beautiful printed copy. Go to newthinkingallowed.org thinking allowed conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove. Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Today is a very special program. I'm here live in the studio in Albuquerque. Of course, when I say live, it's live for us now because we're face to face. Obviously when you viewer are watching, it will be recorded. But I'm here with Anika and Tristan who haven't been with me in Albuquerque for a year. We're going to update their experiences and their situation. For those of you who are unfamiliar, Annika and Tristan in my mind represent two souls in one body. We've done four previous interviews. I'm going to link to one of those interviews right now, upper right hand corner of your screen. If you have a computer that can catch that link. I think this interview will mean so much more to you if you've watched one or more of the previous interviews. Welcome, Anika and Tristan.

A (2:21)

Hi Jeffrey. It's great to be here.

D (2:23)

Hi Jeff. It's a pleasure.

C (2:25)

It's a pleasure for me to be with each of you as a matter of fact, not just a pleasure, a great joy as a matter of fact. Nevertheless, what we're going to be today is to address some of the most troubling aspects of your adjusting to life here on earth in this very unusual situation, particularly when we consider Annika, you found yourself at basically the age of 8 in the body of an adult male. And without having that male around or any parents or really much in the way of guidance, you had to make your way in the world as an 8 year old in an adult male body. And I know that was extremely difficult.

A (3:17)

It was, it was unbelievably difficult. When Tristan died, from my perspective in 2016, I was left with nothing, no one to guide me, nobody to help me. I was just kind of left with a body and suddenly had to survive. And so to survive, you know, it wasn't easy and I Had to do a lot of hard things to survive. And one of those things was sex work. And that's something we didn't talk in the previous videos because we wanted to focus on the soul aspect of things and how Tristan and my relationship. And so we don't want to go into, like, the nitty gritty. That might be controversial, not say that two souls in one body isn't controversial to some people. But this was a subject that, you know, sex work is a subject that's heavily stigmatized by our society. And as an 8 year old in a body with no skills, I didn't, like, come to earth or enter the body. With knowing how to do something, there was only one real avenue. And this is something that impacts a lot of trans women too. A lot of trans women get into sex work because that becomes their only option to survive. And in my case, I didn't have any marketable skills. I didn't know how to get a job if I wanted one. I didn't know, you know, didn't know how to do a resume, nothing. So all I had was like, the Internet and I realized people would pay to see me. And so I went into sex work to survive. I still had to pay for my apartment. I still had to pay for all of my bills. There wasn't any easy road. It was like, even if you're eight and you're in a body that's not your own, you still have to survive in our society. There's no easy way out of it. And it was a really challenging existence those five years.

A (15:09)

Yeah, I didn't really know what I was doing. I suddenly realized that there was something different about consciousness, and I had synesthesia, and I wanted to understand what that was because I noticed colors could trip me through different feelings and emotions. And then Also trip me through sort of, like, different memories and that there was something there. And I thought, maybe I'm seeing the wiring in the brain or something. And so, I mean, it was the pandemic. I was bored. I was doing really well. I wasn't in distress or anything. I was just kind of like, well, I kind of want to experiment with this. And so I took some really high doses of drugs, and I just was like, I'm going to try this. And then I was going to. I basically turned all of the lights on in my apartment and changed them to multicolored. And I watched, like, fractal patterns of colors to try and see how much throughput I could handle of these feelings and sensations and things. And then afterwards, I felt almost, like, in shock. And then I sat down, and I went into a deep meditative state unlike anyone that I've. Any state that I've ever been in before. And this was really my first time meditating, so I didn't even really know what I was doing then. I just felt really compelled to do it. And so I sat there and I meditated. And I went into a really deep, deep state. And I experienced ego death and just kind of dissolved. Like, my. My. Everything dissolved. And then just as I lost. Because I lost consciousness right after this, right as I. About. About right when I lost consciousness, I saw these two colors. And one was, like, this pink color, and the other one was, like this green, but the green was faded. And I realized that I was looking at our soul colors. And immediately I gravitated towards Tristan's because I was, like, green, and I recognized him. And then I just channeled all of my energy into it and then lost consciousness for a bit. I don't remember what happened for I think it was maybe like, 10 minutes or something. And then I came to. And when I came to, I thought I had broken something, that I had damaged the brain. I felt physically ill. I felt. It was like coming down off of the. Like climbing a mountain or something. It was just something so overwhelming. And I was just struggling and struggling, and I was like, I don't know what to do. I feel like I've broken something. And then all of a sudden, I heard Tristan's voice, and he said, you should probably lay down. So I was, like, really confused about it because I was like, where did this other voice come from? And then I was like, yeah, I guess you're right. I probably should lay down. And so I did. And then Tristan was in a really confused state. And I think we Talked about this on the last one. But eventually he was then back from that point on. And so from there, it was nine months. The first week, we were more open to it, and we accepted that we were together again. But it felt very much like a dream. Like, I couldn't believe it. He couldn't believe. Had a dream, surreal, like, quality to it that week. And then after that week, we kind of snapped back to society's reality. So suddenly we were in denial, and we're like, how could this be? This. This isn't real. This isn't like, I. I'm ignoring you. I didn't even call him Tristan. I called him T. I didn't. I didn't even want to say his name. And he was calling me not Annika. He was calling me a. So we were just like. I would be like, t, we need to take care of the trash or something like that, you know, and then he'd be like, all right, A. I'll. I'll do the trash. You know, necessarily best impression of him. And, yeah, that's how it was for, like, nine months of just struggling and trying to figure it out. And then finally, we had this really powerful dream that we talked in another interview with Tristan's grandmother, and he made peace with his grandmother's death, who passed away while he was gone. And we woke up from that, and we were like, we need to address this. Like, this is real. This is. This is something that we need to confront and contend with because it's not going to go away. And we turn to each other for the first time and started having, like, an open, real, open dialogue and acknowledging each other as human beings, as souls, and, you know, allowing each other to love each other and to be open with each other and share emotions. And it was hard. I mean, like, this wasn't like, oh, you're back and everything's fine. It was like, you know, I had my own issues of abandonment and fear. And also, him being back triggered me, like, made me feel like a young child, because suddenly I was like, back to when I was in the body with him. And I was so scared of him taking the body away from me now that I had had it for, you know, five years on my own. I was like, I don't want to lose that autonomy anymore. So it was a really scary first month, which was the November of 2021, and I could barely work to the point where Tristan's mom had to send us money just so that we could survive, because we were spending all day talking to each Other trying to work this out. So it was a really stressful and scary time and maybe not even the most emotionally stable time either. It was extremely difficult for the both of us.

D (25:50)

No, no. I could have experienced things, and I may have been places in spirit, afterlife. I don't know. But I think maybe it was kind of like when you wake up from a dream or something and it fades really quickly, and if you don't spend that first moment really taking in what happened to you, it kind of fades and you don't remember it. And when I came back to the body In January of 2021 or February of 2021, I was in such a panic state. I thought I was visiting either my girlfriend or my daughter who was at college, and that I had to. That I drove through a snowstorm and that because I was trying to grab onto reality, I was trying to find something to give me some kind of grounding. And so I was like, okay, I must be here. And so I even went back into my childhood and was like, well, if it's a winter storm, we gotta winterize the apartment. We gotta insulate, we gotta do this. We gotta prepare firewood, which was ridiculous. In Portland. Portland's winters are not that rough or difficult. They're very easy. But I kind of reverted to what I knew and how to handle whatever situation I was in. So, yeah, it was extremely disorienting. And for those nine months, I was in complete denial about our situation. I couldn't believe it was real because everything previous in my life, you know, as an atheist, as. Yeah, there was nothing to prepare me for this at all. So it was extremely disorienting and confusing experience. And so, you know, Annika, I was really against the whole TikTok thing at first, but, you know, I wanted to make her happy after everything that she had been through. And so I was like, okay, yeah, make a TikTok, and we'll just post some goofy stuff on it and just have fun with it. It wasn't taken seriously. It was just meant to be kind of fun. Show off some of the goofy stuff that we were doing and working through and highlight some of the glitches and switches and ticks and stuff that we were struggling with. But we're also learning to control at the time because a huge part of this was actually learning how to share the body. So we were still having major issues neurologically just from transferring the body back and forth. And so, yeah, we did the TikTok and I'll pass it to Annika for this.

A (32:54)

And I do want to talk about the Discord, too. That came up because I really want to be open about everything. So after the TikTok, we created a discord because at this point, after we went viral, kind of had this idea like, oh, my gosh, this could be, like, a movement of souls. Like, this is something that's resonating with people. Like, oh, my gosh, so many people are into this, and there's so many people who had either multiple souls or did. They were like, oh, my gosh, I'm in the same situation. But, like, my psychiatrist doesn't believe me, and they think that I have psychosis, but I really don't. I really love the other soul that I'm sharing the body with. And so like this, this motivated me, this positiveness that was being created from this motivated me to create, try to create a community. But I wasn't prepared to handle something of that scale. And I was also still trying to work my sex work job because that was the way I was making money. It was the only way I could support myself. So we'd make TikToks during the day and then at night I'd have to go and do camming and what do you call it? Camming. So, like, I didn't do stuff like in person with people. I would just set up like a webcam and I would do like videos and stuff and I would sell them. Today it's like OnlyFans, which a lot of people are probably familiar with. But yeah, I had to work that job on the side and it became unmanageable. I couldn't do the videos and the community and my job all at once. It was too difficult. And at that point in my life, I really wanted to get out of sex work. So I thought, well, if this TikTok thing takes off, maybe I can work on that. And that could be something. I could be an influencer or an entertainer or something and that could get me out of this. Because at that point I was very aware that I was torturing Tristan because he was not happy about the sex work. He came back to the sex work and we didn't know how for him to leave the body at that time, like we were still learning. So sometimes on when I was doing my shows, he had to be there, but he didn't want to be there. And I felt very much. And just being real, I felt very much like it was sort of like either a rape or it was sort of like a sexual. Because he didn't consent to this. He didn't consent to the sex work, he didn't consent to being there. He didn't want to be there. And so I was very aware of the serious that was going on behind the scenes between us because he was miserable.

A (36:31)

So, yeah. So from there, created this discord, and it got really big. And so I had to bring in a lot of moderators for it. And I just. They were just volunteers, and I was struggling to manage the political situation that was going on, and I was just trying to make snap decisions, and I was completely inexperienced. I had no idea what I was doing. And the discord blew up to about 2,000 people overnight, to the point where we couldn't allow any more people in. So this is like, if you want to think about it as like an online forum, sort of like an online community. And it was completely, completely unmanageable. And. And I still wasn't thinking, oh, if, you know, there's. There could be minors there and things like that. And other people were. And what ended up happening was, I think it was like a girl in one of the public channels started talking about periods and, like, and how to deal with multiple souls while having a period. And one of the moderators suggested that, you know, why don't we have, like, a channel or we do some learning for, like. Because I wanted to make this community something where everybody could learn. Because I was also deeply aware that a lot of the people who were resonating were also traumatized and were struggling, and they maybe didn't have the best home lives or that, you know, their family didn't accept them. So I wanted to make this a safe space for everyone. And I didn't want it to just be for did. I wanted it for. To also be for people who really didn't see themselves as being did, but saw themselves as souls. I wanted it to be this big umbrella, a community where people could learn. And so one of the moderators suggested, well, let's make a channel for sex work. And like, maybe. And they said that they had it, and it's like a certificate for instructing sex or not sex work. Sex ed. Sorry, let's make a channel for sex ed. And like. And then I also have, like, a teacher certificate to teach this. So like, maybe we can do, like, Q&As or something, like a controlled thing. And ultimately, I'm not going to remember the perfect details of this. And so I apologize to all of you if I'm not getting this right. I'm trying to be from my perspective, being as open and honest as possible from what I experienced and what happened. And that was a mistake. That was not something that I couldn't verify their certificates. I couldn't verify that person. And it was a mistake to even think of it. And I really shouldn't have allowed minors in there at all because I wasn't. I wasn't able to, like, I wasn't able to take responsibility and look very carefully at everything that was going on. And I was just allowing volunteers to. And it was ultimately that whole server was my responsibility, and I was responsibility for the safety of everyone in there. And I just.

A (46:41)

Yeah, the whole TikTok thing drew, like, just put a huge wedge on our relationship and on our progress. And I really, really, really, really, really struggled. I wanted to continue. I wanted to keep making videos. I was like. And also there was, like. I felt like there was a lot of defamination against me. Do you know what I mean? Like, I felt attacked. And so I was responding defensively. And people were saying, oh, you know, they were soliciting minors, and all these horrible rumors started, and people were posting really nasty things. And I was like, well, I want to stand up, I want to fight. I don't want to be, you know, knocked down by this. And, yeah, I've made mistakes, but they're no big deal. And I was. I was really dismissive of the concerns. I was really dismissive of the people who brought these things up. And I just wanted to fight, fight, fight. And Tristan was like, absolutely not. We're going to stop. Because at this point, we had gotten death threats, we had gotten doxxed, and our information was being posted on actual literal hate groups. I think it was like, it was that kiwi site, that's what they call it. I don't think it exists anymore. But basically, it was like, hate groups had my information. People were like, you know, you should go there and do something. And so Tristan was terrified. And I still was like, I'm not. I don't want to give this up. And a part of that was that I didn't want to let go of that idea of, like, a soul movement or that idea of helping people. And it felt like, you know, we've talked about that mission that I feel like I'm on here on Earth, and I didn't want to give it up for that reason. And so Tristan and I fought, like. I mean, like, yelling at each other. You know what I mean? Like, really, really going at it which, you know, for considering it's all in one body, it must have been quite the sight to see. But it was really difficult, and we were really scared. Like, how do we manage this? How do we manage not being. Wanting to be around each other when we share a body? And there were a few times, because, like, if you're fighting with a loved one or a family member, you can go in separate rooms and calm down and cool off. But we were stuck not only in a body, but feeling each other's emotions. So, like, there were just days where we would lay on the bed and it would feel like the body was dying. The blood would be like ice cold, and the bones would hurt, and it just, like, everything felt just horrible. And we just lay there fuming quietly, not saying a word, just fuming next to each other because we were in such opposition to what we wanted. And it also impact Tristan's family because people actually, like, looked his family members up and was, like, anywhere that they could, like, make an impact on our lives, they did. It's like they went to family members and they were like, this person's doing this bad thing, and they're faking and grifting, and it scared his family members. And so I also want to apologize to Tristan's family. I am sorry for putting you all through that. It was a really scary time. And I want to thank you for, like, the financial assistance during that time to help us get through that. I was not good, and I made a lot of mistakes, and I'm sorry. And also, I love you and thank you for forgiving me, because we've since worked it out since then.