Podcast Summary: Remembering Robert Monroe and Journeys Out of the Body with Tom Campbell

New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast | Host: Jeffrey Mishlove | Guest: Tom Campbell | May 15, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, psychologist and host Jeffrey Mishlove sits down with physicist and consciousness researcher Tom Campbell to reflect on Campbell's years working alongside Robert Monroe, the influential author of Journeys Out of the Body and founder of the Monroe Institute. The conversation delves into Monroe's impact on parapsychology, the science and practice of out-of-body experiences (OBEs), the development of technologies like binaural beats (Hemi-Sync), and Tom Campbell's own unique model of consciousness—My Big TOE (Theory of Everything). The discussion bridges the worlds of science, spirituality, and direct experience, revealing insider stories from the early days of consciousness exploration.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tom Campbell’s Introduction to Robert Monroe

• Both Mishlove and Campbell were exposed to Monroe’s work in the early 1970s, a pivotal period for psi research.
• Campbell’s physics background conflicted with his personal anomalous experiences, prompting a search for deeper answers. His initial meeting with Monroe was motivated by skepticism ("Is this guy for real, or just selling books?") [03:01].
• Upon visiting Monroe’s estate, Campbell realized Monroe was well-off, motivated by curiosity rather than profit [12:08].
• Validation of Monroe’s legitimacy came from scientific experiments run with parapsychologists like Charles Tart [13:12].

2. The Nature of Out-of-Body Experiences

• Monroe coined "out-of-body experience" (OBE), but Campbell asserts that this “natural” metaphor can mislead. Instead, Campbell suggests, “It's not that you get out of your body, but that you get out of your mind” [14:50].
• Campbell’s model: The body is an avatar (computed object); consciousness is the fundamental reality [16:07].

3. Science Meets the Paranormal

• Difficulties for scientists in accepting the paranormal arise from the “operational definition of reality”—if it can’t be measured, it’s irrelevant [04:08].
• Paranormal experiences are processed through intuition, not intellect. Intuitive knowing provides access to more information, but is a “ratty tool” because it depends on state of mind and belief [19:22].
• Both intuition and intellect are necessary: “Now the person who has developed both is a balanced person.” [24:14]

4. Campbell’s Early Experiences Before Meeting Monroe

• Describes debugging computer programs in meditation, “seeing” which punch cards were incorrect—a skill scientifically inexplicable yet consistently accurate [06:38].
• Realizing the operational/materialist conception of reality was inadequate, leading to new models of mind [08:20].

5. Building The Monroe Lab and Binaural Beats

• Campbell and colleagues became regulars at the Monroe lab, undertaking experiments in consciousness [31:06].
• Discovery and optimization of binaural beat technology: “After about two weeks spending probably more than 20 hours in the lab ... we optimized what we thought were great.” [34:17]
• Binaural beats allowed users to reach deep altered states; this technology became the basis of Hemi-Sync [35:00].

6. Personal and Shared Non-Physical Training

• Campbell shares memories of both he and Monroe having undergone identical non-physical "testing" by “entities”—as children and adults. Tests focused on personal growth, overcoming fear, and using intent [44:35], [46:57].
  • “When they find good tests that work well, they keep using them.” – Campbell, on the source and repetition of OBE tests [45:39]
• Experiences as a child involved out-of-body training by entities, “fear tests,” encounters with guides, and even a Kundalini-like energetic experience [51:14].

7. Philosophy of Consciousness, Entropy, and Love

• Campbell lays out his model: Consciousness is an information system. Our purpose is to “lower our entropy,” meaning to increase the order and quality of our consciousness (which he equates to love) [81:10, 105:41].
• High-entropy cultures are marked by fear, conflict, and instability; low-entropy cultures by cooperation, trust, and love [83:54].
• Campbell sees human history as an evolutionary curve, now at an inflection point—"Change is coming and it's coming fast." [90:38].

8. The Loosh Controversy and Interpretation of Non-Physical Experiences

• Campbell recounts Monroe’s troubled “louche” revelation, where humans seemed like a resource “being farmed” by higher beings [94:19]. Campbell reframes this: Monroe’s farm analogy was an interpretation, while the deeper message was about evolving consciousness and love [97:31].
• “Reality is what you interpret it to be. It's your interpretation. That's why you should always stay skeptical of everything you get.” [97:31]

9. Evidential Psi Experiments and Healing

• In the Monroe lab, Campbell and colleagues did extensive experiments: remote viewing, healing, reading hidden numbers, and precognition (e.g., predicting newspaper headlines) [59:16].
• Healing examples: telepathic intervention in life-threatening cases, including a young girl after a car accident and a woman given last rites—both incidents involving mind-to-mind communication and remarkable recovery [63:08-71:07].
• “You have to do that first before you heal...she changed. But because she was a theologian herself, she interpreted that as God speaking to her.” [71:04]

10. After Monroe: The Development of My Big TOE

• After leaving Monroe, Campbell intensified his exploration of consciousness, developing an information-based model of reality [104:39].
• Key realization: “What are you conscious of? ... You get input, you do processing, you have memory, and you do an output. What does that sound like? ... Sounds like a computer. Exactly.” [107:12]
• The smallest unit of consciousness is a “reality cell”—awareness with a choice (A or B). Purpose: lower entropy through meaningful choices; "Lowering entropy means love." [107:11]

11. Bridging Science and Spirituality

• Campbell’s model removes the conflict between religion and rationality, providing a "left-brain on-ramp" to spirituality [122:44].
• Comparison of the “Larger Consciousness System” and "God" reveals overlapping attributes, especially when approached beyond dogma [117:50].

12. Legacy of Robert Monroe

• Monroe’s courage in publicly pursuing and legitimizing the OBE phenomenon [125:41].
• The Monroe Institute became a hub for government, military, and scientific interest in psi and consciousness [126:52].
• Campbell acknowledges Monroe’s essential influence in shaping his own life and work [127:21].
  • “I wouldn't have done what I did if it hadn't been for those years with Bob.” [127:21]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the limits of materialist science:
  “When you're a physicist, it's hard to get out of that mindset. So I did more of it, and it was clear that I was getting information that was otherwise unknowable.” – Tom Campbell [06:38]
• On intuition vs. intellect:
  “The best way to be is extremely right brain and extremely left brain at the same time. And then what happens is they work together as partners.” – Tom Campbell [28:26]
• On Monroe's impact:
  “Bob was a good reporter. He reported things the best he could. But... you have to interpret that data stream. Your reality isn't the data stream. Your reality is your interpretation of the data stream.” – Tom Campbell [92:09]
• On the future of humanity:
  "We're now right at this point at the knee of the curve. We're right where it starts to accelerate. That's why there's so much contention right now. Change is coming and it's coming fast... One day we will be in... a low entropy culture." – Tom Campbell [90:38–91:44]
• On love and entropy:
  “You lower the entropy of that social system by being cooperative, by being caring, by being thoughtful, by being considerate. All of those things lower the entropy... The opposite side of love is fear.” – Tom Campbell [81:10]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Campbell’s first meeting with Monroe and initial skepticism: [03:01] – [13:12]
• The operational/materialist view of reality and Campbell’s paradigm shift: [04:08] – [08:20]
• Debate over the OBE terminology and the avatar nature of the body: [14:50] – [16:07]
• Intellect vs. intuition and achieving balance: [19:22] – [28:26]
• Development of binaural beats and Hemi-Sync: [34:17] – [39:26]
• Shared OBE “tests” and non-physical education: [44:35] – [53:46]
• Healing at a distance (miracle cases): [63:08] – [71:07]
• Entropic evolution and social systems: [81:10] – [91:44]
• The “Loosh” myth and interpretational pitfalls: [92:09] – [97:31]
• Departure from Monroe Institute and development of Big TOE: [104:39] – [107:12]
• Religion, science, and the Larger Consciousness System: [117:50] – [124:43]
• Final reflections on Monroe’s character and influence: [125:41] – [127:21]

Tone & Style Reflections

The conversation is candid, accessible, and thoughtful, with an air of respectful skepticism and wonder. Both Mishlove and Campbell blend scientific humility with philosophical openness, offering rich firsthand narratives alongside deep theoretical insights.

This episode is a treasure trove for those interested in consciousness, the paranormal, and the journey from skeptical inquiry to experiential knowledge. It’s equally valuable for scientists, spiritual seekers, and fans of Robert Monroe, offering a rare behind-the-scenes view of the pioneering days of OBE research and the genesis of a major theory of consciousness.