Remembering Tamra Lucid with Ronnie Pontiac

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Remembering Tamra Lucid with Ronnie Pontiac

Podcast: New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Host: Jeffrey Mishlove
Guest: Ronnie Pontiac
Date: September 24, 2025
Episode Theme:
A deeply heartfelt remembrance of Tamra Lucid—musician, author, activist, and beloved partner of 46 years to Ronnie Pontiac. Through personal stories, reflections, and philosophy, Ronnie explores Tamra’s life, their extraordinary partnership, her legacy, and his experiences of loss, grief, and continued spiritual connection.

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode is a tribute to Tamra Lucid, co-author, riot grrrl band founder, activist, and Ronnie Pontiac’s life partner, who passed away in July 2025. Ronnie and Jeffrey Mishlove discuss Tamra’s incredible life, their transformational love, her creativity, and her impact on countless lives. Ronnie shares moving anecdotes about their meeting, their work, Tamra’s personal resilience, her ethos of compassion and authenticity, and his ongoing connection with her after her passing.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Genesis of a Transformative Relationship

• Both Tamra and Ronnie came from difficult backgrounds, yet transformed through love and partnership.
• Early Meeting (16:05 – 26:20):
  • Both faced abuse and alienation in youth. Tamra had a history of trauma; Ronnie grew up isolated in a Holocaust survivor family.
  • Their fateful meeting: Tamra sought help from Ronnie at a dangerous club; he protected her, triggering an immediate and profound connection.
  • “Please help me.” – Tamra’s words that changed Ronnie’s life. (16:53)
  • They became inseparable—“We were never apart after that for 46 years, until she went into the hospital. Every single night we were together… It was the most amazing relationship.” (25:26, Ronnie)

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2. Tamra’s Personal Growth and Ethos

• Transformation and Voice (26:33 – 34:28):

  • Tamra went from being shy and self-doubting to an outspoken leader in the Riot Grrrl movement, documentary film producer, interviewer, and beloved friend to many.
  • “That girl wound up being a leader in the riot grrrl movement... the front person for our band... People loved to interview her because she always said amazing things.” (29:32, Ronnie)
  • She mentored and inspired others, particularly young women, emphasizing empowerment and self-defense.

• Central Philosophy:

  • “It’s about the individual conversations, it’s not about the fame.” (33:09, Ronnie reading Tamra’s journal)
  • Tamra consistently opted for meaningful connections over fame, despite offers from major music industry figures.

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3. Her Impact on People, Animals, and the World

• Mentorship and Compassion (34:22 – 41:00):

  • Tamra changed many lives through her mentorship, support, and kindness.
  • “She had an uncanny ability to reach out at a time when people were at their lowest, as if she could sense that something was wrong.” (34:11, Ronnie)
  • Her nurturing extended to animals and plants—her backyard teemed with birds and flourishing greenery due to her care.

• Legacy of Influence:

  • When Tamra fell ill, a global outpouring of prayers across spiritual traditions occurred.
  • After her passing, many reported dreams, visitations, and meaningful synchronicities (e.g., dragonflies, scarabs).

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4. Coping with Grief and Spiritual Connection Beyond Death

• Experiences of Grief (41:00 – 59:27):

  • Ronnie recounts the overwhelming, disorienting nature of grief—“everything just seemed so bleak.”
  • A transformative visitation from Tamra imparted to him a spiritual perspective: “bodies and ashes and death certificates are trivialities…we’re not only sand, we’re also stars.”
  • “Live up to what you know.” – Tamra’s mantra to Ronnie, often felt through signs and inner voice after her passing. (53:55)

• Encouraging Others:

  • Grief is universal, but spiritual understanding, love, and purpose can bring hope.
  • He shares strategies for coping, like keeping Tamra’s belongings and honoring her memory.

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5. Ongoing Legacy and Forthcoming Work

• Celebration and Projects (59:27 – 68:17):
  • Plans for honoring Tamra at the Philosophical Research Society.
  • Ronnie aims to finish their unfinished books (including The Unobstructed Way and a book on the Rosicrucians) and possibly complete Tamra’s memoir with contributions from her community.
  • “My skill set is very different from hers...I figure I’m here to do something—to tell our story...for people out there who wrote ‘there’s no such thing as true love’...I want them to know that yes, there is.” (67:43, Ronnie)

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6. The Message: Love, Individuality, and Living Authentically

• Living a Poem, a Symphony (68:31 – end):
  • Treasuring life, love, and individuality is a clear call from Ronnie and Tamra’s example.
  • “Dare to love, like really love...and be yourselves, be individuals, because only you can be that. Tamra—one of a kind.” (75:41, Ronnie)
  • The episode concludes with a mutual commitment to continue Tamra’s work and legacy.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s about the individual conversations, it’s not about the fame.” – Tamra’s journal, read by Ronnie (33:09)
• “Please help me.” – Tamra to Ronnie on the night they met (16:53)
• “We were never apart after that for 46 years, until she went into the hospital. Every single night we were together...” – Ronnie (25:26)
• “She saw people, how kind she was to them, how she took them seriously when nobody else would, how she lifted them out of the positions they were in...” – Ronnie (33:40)
• “Live up to what you know.” – Tamra’s mantra to Ronnie felt after her passing (53:55)
• “Dare to love, like really love...and be yourselves, be individuals, because only you can be that.” – Ronnie (75:41)
• “I want them to know that yes, there is [true love].” – Ronnie, about those who doubt real love exists (67:43)
• “To be able to experience that [connection beyond death] is a privilege... I want to be like Stuart. I want to do the job.” – Ronnie, reflecting on his new purpose (68:35)

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Important Timestamps

• Early context and Tamra’s mindset: 00:00 – 05:28
• Difficult beginnings & how they met: 05:28 – 16:05
• First encounter and the start of their relationship: 16:05 – 26:20
• Tamra's growth; transformation; Riot Grrrl: 26:20 – 34:28
• Mentor, influence, and why she chose impact over fame: 33:09; 33:40
• Tamra's nurturing power: 34:28 – 41:00
• On grief, signs, and spiritual perspective: 41:00 – 59:27
• Tamra’s legacy; future plans: 59:27 – 68:20
• Final reflections on love, individuality, and living fully: 68:31 – end

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation moves between immense vulnerability, admiration, and inspiration, honoring Tamra Lucid’s profound legacy—not only as an artist and activist but as a catalyst for transformation in others’ lives. Ronnie’s sharing, full of vivid anecdotes and spiritual reflections, offers solace and encouragement to listeners facing loss or seeking meaning. The episode ultimately affirms the ongoing power of love, individuality, and authentic connection—central to Tamra’s life and message.

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(Advertisements, intros, and outros excluded as per guidelines.)

Transcript

[A]

And after all this happened, I'd been going through her journals and I found this one empty notebook, except for one sentence that to me, really describes why she made those decisions and who she was. She said, it's about the individual conversations, it's not about the fame. And that's exactly how she ran her life.

[B]

Keep watching to learn more.

[A]

Book 4 in the New Thinking Allowed dialogue series is Charles T. Tart, 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology, now available on Amazon.

[B]

New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit, the topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website at cihs. Edu. You can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingalowed.org.

[A]

Thinking allowed conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery with Psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove.

[B]

Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. My guest today is Ronnie Pontiac, who was the personal research assistant for Manly P. Hall at the Philosophical Research Society in Los Angeles. He is author of American Metaphysical Religion, Esoteric and Mystical Traditions of the New World, and he is co author with his late wife Tamra Lucid, of the Magic of the Orphic, a new translation for the modern mystic. Today we'll be talking about Tamra, his life partner of 46 years, who passed away last month from today in July 2025. Tamra was also the author of Making the Ordinary My Seven Years in Occult Los Angeles with Manley Palmer Hall. She was also the founder of the Riot grrrl band Lucid Nation. Ronnie is in Los Angeles and now I'll switch over to the Internet video.

[C]

Welcome, Ronnie. It's a pleasure to be with you today.

[A]

I'm very pleased to be with you, Jeffrey.

[C]

I know this is still a difficult circumstance. Having lost your life partner of 46 years is undoubtedly one of the most difficult things anybody could ever go through. So I'm. I'm very grateful that you're willing to take the time to be with me and the New Thinking Allowed audience today and share your reflections on this wonderful person that we've talked about many times. And I really regret I never had a chance to meet her.

[A]

I wish she had met you and I know that she was planning to do a podcast with you in the unobstructed way. The book that we wrote together came out.

[C]

So it's a pity it is A pity. But let's start with. I had the opportunity to go through her book about Manly Hall. And I realized it's as much about you as about Manly Hall. And I know from our conversations how much you loved her. But reading her book, I could see that she loved you equally.

[A]

We had an extraordinary relationship. Not punning on the title of her book, which is Making the Ordinary extraordinary. We were together every single day for 46 years. We did all of our work together. I've often said that really we could have both been authors of any of the things that we wrote together separately, because we collaborated so completely on everything. Music, films, and, of course, the books. But she actually had a separate calling, which was as an artist. And I myself did not realize how dedicated she was and how many stages there was to it until I started to go through our closets and cabinets. And I found this amazing art stuffed into garbage bags stuck in the back of these closets. I had some friends with me, and we were just amazed at the quality and how she had these different kind of eras of art. But other than the art, which she very much did on her own to such a degree that I didn't even realize the extent of it. Everything else we were involved with together every single day.

[C]

And the amazing thing to me is, of course, she describes in her book how she first met you and how the very first thing she had to say about you was that people warned her, stay away from this guy.

[A]

Well, to give your listeners a little background so they have context on who these people are. Because I want to get across that if Tamara and I were able to accomplish what we did, anybody can I believe. Because we had terrible beginnings, both of us. When we first started out, we were very intelligent. I found her old report cards. And in elementary school and in middle school, she was a straight A student. She was brilliant in mathematics. A lot of comments from teachers like, outstanding. And she was very much the girl that she became later in that if there was somebody bullying a younger kid or a weaker kid, she would step up and fight the bully. And so something happened to her around the time that she was graduating from middle school into high school, which is not uncommon. She became the object of all these rumors, and they were very lurid. She didn't really understand what the words that she was suddenly being called were, that she didn't understand what these things that she had allegedly done were. But the stress of this and the fact that now she was this target and not safe anywhere. Even in homeroom class, the teacher wouldn't defend her. They would make these accusations about her and call her a whore and things like that. She had had an abusive brother and a mother who was sadistic, who taught her to be dyslexic, who forced her to be right handed when she was left handed, who would teach her to mispronounce words and then would laugh when she mispronounced. And yet somehow she had maintained this ability to both be a defender of weaker children and also a brilliant student. But once the school, the kids kind of turned on her, I guess, as the hormones hit. And she was a really lovely young blonde girl, an object, apparently, of a lot of attention and jealousy. And so rumors were spread by a particular girl and the school seized on them. She didn't feel safe after that, and she wasn't safe between that time and when I met her. She was raped four times and once very violently by somebody who grabbed her right off the street and tried to kill her. And the only way she survived was when she realized that she was being driven to a graveyard. She grabbed the wheel of the car and turned it toward traffic, scaring the. Assaulting this man who had assaulted her so much that he dropped her off. And this turned her into a very different person. Obviously. She became a terrible student. Her grades plummeted weirdly. Her parents almost preferred it that way, especially her mother. It was like, well, we knew you were dumb, and now here's the proof that you're dumb. And her brother, who, as I mentioned, was very abusive to her from an early age, physically, like hitting her and stuff, he renewed his attacks on her and would tell her how stupid she was. In high school, her last year, she got involved with somebody who didn't really in any way share her values, but who was interested in her sexually and who gave her a lot of drugs and protected her at least. And that was her first serious relationship. And she stayed with this guy for about three years, something like that, in and out of high school. And at the same time, I was a kid that was raised by a family of Holocaust survivors who were very distrustful of America and Americans and who kept me locked up like a. Like an experimental animal in the house. I had very little interaction as a child with the people around me, neighbors and kids, and. And so I was. I was smart like her. I got good grades. And my parents were very fixated on me getting into Harvard. So even at a very young age, they wanted me to just study and study and study. And I was beat up constantly. I was a premature kid. I was a runt and I had a slight accent from being hidden away in the house. So I was a constant target. And they somehow thought that it was my fault. I would try and tell them, this isn't Europe. Don't dress me like this. Can I please wear blue jeans to school so I won't be such a target? And they didn't understand we're dressing for the teacher, not. Not in America. And so we went different directions at that point. She adapted as best she could. She. Her opinions about music, about politics, about feminism were not welcome. But she tried to have as good a time as she could. She actually enjoyed all the drugs and the sex. And she just kind of became a. What she thought of as a regular person. Just, this is. This is what my life will be like. I got very bitter. And so as she began to work, her first job, she worked in a warehouse, she worked briefly in a bank. She worked a number of jobs. In her teen years, she couldn't hold a job. She just hated them. I started to put together a band and I had made this discovery that, first of all, that I had no social contract between being beat up at school, having no friends, my parents were psycho. I just felt that society had left me completely at the mercy of all this and I owed society nothing. And therefore I felt that I had the right to use any weapon I could. And my weapons included lying, which I found was very powerful. It included violence. It included attitudes like racism and nihilism. And. And I wrapped all that up into a band. And to my surprise, this band became very popular. In fact, two different biker gangs liked us so much that they became our security. And I think of it these days as almost a glimpse of what later became the maga crowd. It was a bunch of really pissed off rednecks who, you know, hated the way society was going, even though they enjoyed aspects of it and they really related to my anger. And I was thrilled to find myself changing in a matter of about a year from being this runt that was being beat up all the time to somebody who, if my biker security thought that I might want somebody beat up, they would do it without even asking me. And that felt very good to me at the time. So Tamra here is being. Having a good time, going to parties, trying to work jobs, very quiet, very self censored, very within herself, was very insecure about her intelligence. I had turned into this monster. And so the popularity of the band was such that we were getting gigs because these guys bought a lot of alcohol when they Came to see us. So the clubs wanted us to play, but they would hire off duty police in order to have enough security to deal with it, which usually didn't help because the bikers usually beat up the police if there was a confrontation. I was definitely headed to something terrible. There was a lot of violence around me. The things I was doing. Anything evil was justified, in my opinion. And I was reading stuff like Crowley and Hitler and Austin Spare and was kind of inventing chaos, magic, as we have talked about before, in my own way, before it became something that was well known as it is today. So of course I had a terrible reputation. Everybody knew that I was dangerous and that I was liable to do almost anything. One night I was at this club and Tamara, who had. She had gotten a job as a makeup artist in the studio as an apprentice, which would have been a great career, but she hated it. And she was realizing that she didn't like this relationship at all. And she needed to figure out something to do because she was stuck. This guy was a good provider. He bought a house pretty much out of high school because his job at the studios was so good. But she was super unhappy. She started to here and there. She'd go out to a club and just maybe have a good time. And the first time that she did it, it was not a good situation. She was asked to do it again. And the same night I was asked by my drummer to go get our guitar player back. As our guitar player had figured out, this guy is crazy. And I really just want to be in a band. I want girls and money. I don't want this. But our drummer, who was crazy like me, the kind of guy that his idea of a good time was on Fridays he would go to a local burger joint and beat up football players. And people would bet on who would win. He always won. He's a great drummer, too. But he thought, why don't we go to the club and we'll just tell him, if you don't rejoin the band, we'll beat you up. And so that's why I was there. It was a rainy April Fool's night, and she was convinced to go by somebody who was badgering her. The main reason she went was because she didn't want to be at home with her abusive brother, which is where she'd been staying, to stay away from her boyfriend. She didn't want to be at home with her boyfriend because there was a roommate there that was trying to force her into sex. And this guy would only show up late at night, her boyfriend. And it was boring and horrible, and she felt like she was wasting her life. So we're at the club. I'm just looking for the guitar player. Not there for girls. I had a whole thing set up where I had different girls for different nights who would give me food and money and. And in turn, they could stay the night with me. And that. That was how I lived. And I didn't need another girl, let's put it that way. She was just looking to have a good time.

[C]

I gather you were both very young at this point.

[A]

She was, I believe, 19 and I was 20, something like that. And so we were both too young to be in the club, by the way. And I'd been going there since I was 17, though. And so what happened was the girl she went there with, who had badgered her into going, had immediately hooked up with this band of five guys at their table. And then she spotted this guy who was a lookalike of a rock star she idolized. And she completely abandoned Tamra with these five guys. Well, these five guys were quite predatory, and they could sense that this was a girl that was insecure and who had been abused. You can feel it off people. They get nervous and they feel helpless. And so they began to plot on how they were going to corner her. And it's a kind of experience, as she described it, where they would be looking at each other and whispering, and then they'd see that she was looking, and they would suddenly smile at her. Oh, hi. And then watch her very carefully. They would follow her around the club and interrupt her when she was talking to somebody else. And she knew what was happening, and she was terrified. And so she started to look at me. And her friend, a different friend who happened to be there that night, thought, wow, that drummer is good looking. Didn't know he was a drummer, and I'd like to talk to him. And Tamara said, what a great opportunity to meet this guy who's standing there all in black, this skinny, weird guy. For some reason, she thought I was interesting looking. So they came up to talk to us, and it wasn't a very friendly conversation. I don't think I said anything. And they realized, okay, these guys are not fun. So they took off. Her friend left, and now she's left with these five guys. So the guy who ran the club, who was supposed to have been connected with the mafia, saw her watching me, and he walked over to her and he said, you seem like a nice girl. Do not talk to that guy. He's a bad, bad. He's bad news. And she. She heard it in his voice that this was serious. And yet, as the night ended at 2am and she had not figured out a way to get out of this, she found me standing outside smoking a black Russian cigarette and looking at everybody with contempt, as I would do. And. And she thought, I need help. I've got to do something or I'm going to be in serious trouble with these guys. And so she walked up to me and she said, please help me and Jeffrey. That's when my life completely changed. And so she explained to me what was going on. I was outraged, and I despised people like that, even though I was a criminal. But I had my own kind of code. And I said, wait here. She thought I was going out the back or something. She just thought, you know, how ridiculous, walking up to this guy and asking a guy like that to help me. He's probably laughing at me. But actually, I went in to get my drummer, and I asked him, hey, you want to protect this girl? These jackasses are planning something awful. And he was like, yeah, let's fight, you know? And so we went and we hooked up with her. And they did try to prevent me from following. There was this whole thing which Tamara talks about, where they, like, waited for a red light to change and all this stuff, but I didn't care about red lights. I just hit the gas and caused all kinds of terrible traffic problems and got behind her. And so as we were going into this place where she had to go and these guys had followed her, I was standing next to her. I walked up next door to protect her, and I had the weirdest feeling, you know, I. I just felt like I'd never felt like this on this. On this planet before. Like I belonged here and I needed to be next to this girl. And I didn't like that. I. Again, I thought, this is not good for the business. And so. And I also figured, you know, let's see what happens. Anyway, girls like this, this is a nice girl. They usually don't like me at all once they get to know me. So we sat there on a sofa for a while. The place where we were at happened to have a view of the city. This was all being arranged by the girl that she'd gone with, who took her new boyfriend into another room and left Tamara with these guys that she had told where to go to join the party. And they stood around drinking beer in the kitchen while Tamara spent several hours telling me about her life and especially about her relationship with her boyfriend. And basically the message she was giving me was, I'm not a rocker girl. I'm not a punk girl. I'm a nice girl from the San Fernando Valley, and I don't do things like this. I just sat there and gave her monosyllable answers and thought to myself, I can't believe this. Like, I'm sitting here protecting some other guy's girlfriend. Not cool. Well, eventually, these guys made a move, and they started to talk to her, most obscenely, and were proposing an activity that everyone can imagine. And she was terrified. She just looked so scared. She looked at me and she realized if I said, yeah, let's do it, she was. She was done. And if I said, yeah, I don't care. Done. But I stood up and I said, shut the F up. And I didn't say F to these guys. And so they said, you know, hey, we'll let you guys go first. They're making a deal, you know. And so I'm. I made fists. I was like, come on. And they started saying, there's five of us and there's two of you. And then my drummer stood up and he said. He said, shut the F up. And we. We were elevated. Like, Tamara told me later that. That you could tell that this was not normal violence. Like, this wasn't like, you know, we'll have a fight and you'll get a black eye. This was like we were going to hurt these guys. And that's true. I mean, we were. That's what we were thinking was like, you're not going to come out of this in one piece. They felt that, and then they retreated, whining about, why would you do that? You know, that's what the girl. Why would the girl bring us here if she didn't want that? You know, that kind of thing. And so they left. And I turned around to Tamara and I said, okay, are you all right now? And she said, no. She said, they could come back if they see you leave. I was like, yeah, I guess. So she said, can I go back to your place? And in the morning I can leave? And I said, all right. You know. So we went back to my terrible little bachelor apartment near the Whiskey A Go Go. And I told her, you can sleep on the floor. I'll get you a blanket if you need it. My drummer was passing out on the sofa. And, you know, we had talked for a couple minutes, but I was just. It was nearly dawn, and I. I just said, hey, I'm. I'm going to bed. My bedroom was like a bed behind a curtain. There was a little column there, you know, and she. She, like, knocked very gingerly on the column. And I said, the bathroom's over there. But she walked in and sat on my bed in this strange kind of way, very shy. And so I figured, oh, okay, well, that's nice. I'm being rewarded for my chivalry. And we kissed. And that was the beginning of our relationship. And it was unlike anything I'd ever experienced. I. I had been with girls, but nothing like that. And it wasn't skill, although she was skillful. There was a connection that was. Wow. I mean, it still makes me very emotional to think about the feeling that I felt at that moment. And she felt it too. She went home and her brother's boyfriend saw the look on her face and said, oh, I guess you had a good time tonight. And she said, I think I met the love of my life. Which was ironic because she had just written in her journal a couple weeks earlier, there's no such thing as true love. So it took me two weeks to realize I was done. I could not stand being with the other girls, even though I depended on them. Every time I was with them, all I could think about is, where's Tamara? What's Tamara doing? I wish I could talk to Tamara. And so after two weeks, I approached her at her brother's apartment. And I was so dour. I was scared to death, Chap. I really was. I was just. I was like, there's no way this girl is going to live. Leave a good gig, like a three and a half year relationship with a guy with a house for. For this, you know? But I said. She said, I thought you were breaking up with me because of my demeanor. And so I just said, would you move in with me? And to my shock, and to this day, it thrills me to the core, she said yes, with this big smile on her face. What a day that was. And so we showed up and got her stuff, and she moved in with me. And she brought two cats and some plates and some mismatched cutlery and a couple of plants. And we were never apart after that for 46 years, until she went into the hospital every single night we were together. And it was the most amazing relationship. And it would be hubris to wish for more. I understand that. But that's all I want. I mean, I just wish I could have more. And it was like falling in love every single day.

[C]

It's an amazing story. And particularly when I consider the person who you are now and the person who you were then. Are practically polar opposites.

[A]

Yes. And also, I would say the same for her. Because she went from being somebody. When I first met her, she was super quiet. Like, she was always afraid that if she said anything that she would be thought stupid. And if she was in a room with a group of people, she wouldn't say a word. She would walk behind me like a dog, you know. And I started saying, what are you doing? Come here. You know, walk with me. And she would cry every day. I found her crying in the bathroom. And I finally said, why do you go in the bathroom and cry? Aren't you happy? And she said, oh, that's hygiene. I said, hygiene. She said, yeah, I've had a really hard life. A lot of bad things have happened to me. And if I don't cry every day, I don't know what I would do. I said, baby, you're with me now. No more crying in the bathroom every day. I said, it's going to be okay. Now. She went through this process where not too long after that. We wound up at the Philosophical Research Society. And I wound up working for Manly Hall. And we became friends with the Halls. But she wasn't treated very well there either. She was treated as my pretty blonde girlfriend. She doesn't know anything. And there were lots of women who thought, well, I should be with this budding young master. I'm an intellectual. And that girl doesn't know anything. Because she was silent. And there were men who would hit on her. And it was still a pretty ugly experience. She described it as being like wallpaper. But the Halls treated her beautifully. And Manly hall just loved her. He thought she was wonderful. And Marie really took her to heart. And became like the grandmother that she never had. Because her grandmothers were pretty foul characters. And when I became popular as a lecturer, for example. Marie said, took Tamara aside and she said, don't you let him do it. Don't you let him follow the path that Manly took to be adored. While you're sitting in the shadows. She said, it will destroy your marriage. They talked us into getting married. That's another story in their backyard with Manly hall officiating. How do you turn that down? And they picked the date, I might add. And so Marie was telling her, you need to do something where you can be involved with him. So that the two of you can grow together. Otherwise, it's going to be just like this. He's going to get addicted to the adoration. And I'm in The Shadows, they call me Mad Marie. They don't take me seriously. And everybody thinks that they're better than I am because they deserve Manly hall more than I do. And I'm not good enough for him. Do you want that kind of life? Tamara was like, no. And that really stuck with her and with me. When she told me so, I tried to get her to lecture with me and she was really not into it. She would get really embarrassed. And she hated to talk in front of people. Well, that girl wound up being a leader in the riot grrrl movement. The front person for our band. This incredibly outspoken young woman who was brilliant and who people loved to interview. Nobody wanted to interview me. They all wanted to interview her because she always said amazing things. Like in. In 1992, she said this sentence that stuck with me. She said the indiscriminate sadism of enforced conformity, which is something we're seeing today. So this transformation continued and she became active as a producer of documentary films and she became an author, as you know. And she was somebody who interviewed all kinds of people for what used to be a well known website for burners, people who went to Burning, excuse me, the website Reality Sandwich, where she interviewed presidential candidates and amazing people. Rob Kenner, who did the film Food Inc. John Trudell, the indigenous activist and poet, who said that she was the most intelligent woman he ever met. And it was an honor to have spoken with her. And it was so beautiful to see this happen, like to be here and to witness this transformation of her into this tremendous force and her bravery. She studied martial arts and she would teach kids at our shows because a lot of riot grrrl fans were women, young women who had suffered abuse. And so she would stop the show and she would tell them, this is how you defend yourself if somebody grabs you. These are the areas on any person's body that no matter how big and strong they are, that if you do what I tell you, you'll be able to stop them. And I was just so proud of her. And I didn't really realize the extent of what she did until this happened, because all of this was done very diy. She was offered fame. Danny Goldberg, who managed Nirvana and who was the vice president of Led Zeppelin's label and was a president of Atlantic Records and I think Columbia. And he followed us as a band from almost the first show, and he offered us several times the opportunity to have a contract. And he told her, if you give me three years, I'll make you internationally famous. And she didn't want it. And after all this happened, I've been going through her journals, and I found this one empty notebook, except for one sentence that, to me, really describes why she made those decisions and who she was. She said, it's about the individual conversations. It's not about the fame. And that's exactly how she ran her life. And so she would have this amazing influence on these young people who followed our band and encouraged bands to happen, like the band. The Gossip, which was fairly well known, happened at one of our shows in Arkansas, where she told them, you guys are great. You should go to. To Olympia immediately and talk to my friend. So and so. And so when she passed, her social media became a shrine of people who she'd known for 20 years, 30 years. I had no idea whose lives she had completely turned around. Musicians, addicts, writers, artists she had mentored. I knew a group of young women especially, but also young men. But she had affected so many lives through this philosophy of individual conversations. And the things I kept hearing from people were how she saw them, how kind she was to them, how she took them seriously when nobody else would, how she was somebody who lifted them out of the positions that they were in where they thought they were hopeless. And often people said that she had an uncanny ability to reach out at a time when people were at their lowest, as if she could sense that something was wrong. And she would contact them and then listen and often had a solution for them, a connection or some kind of a way out of the predicament that they thought was hopeless. It was just beautiful to see all of that.

[C]

I imagine it had something to do with the fact that she had been there herself.

[A]

Oh, yeah, definitely. And something. Her ethic was just so amazing, so honest. She was just a really wonderful human being, and she treated plants and animals as kindly as she treated people. And like the people that she took care of, they flourished in ways that were very unusual. That reminded me of what Stuart Edward White had said about Betty. Tamara couldn't just feed hummingbirds. If Tamara fed hummingbirds, suddenly there were 200 hummingbirds in the backyard. Tamara couldn't give seeds to nutmeg mannequins. Suddenly, there was a swarm of a hundred of them in our yard. Everything she touched flourished in the most beautiful way. Our house looked like a jungle because her plants would just grow and grow, and it was so beautiful. I don't think she realized the impact she had on people, though, because she would have that impact, and then for some of them, they wouldn't talk to her for 20 years, even 30 years, because she had made this change. But they would follow her on social media and be influenced by what she was posting and what she was doing creatively, but they were all there. And when she got sick, it was amazing for me to see. This was a very rapid thing. It was five days of sickness at home and then five days in the hospital and she was gone. And when she was in the hospital, I asked for people to pray for her, and the response was amazing. She had Tibetans burning butter lamps for her. She had candles lit at the Church of Mary in Glastonbury. She had rituals done for her for a whole bunch of different gods. Asclepius, Jesus, Allah, you know, Krishna, many Egyptian gods, and on and on. I mean, it was basically all over the world, people were responding by reading the hymns of Orpheus in a French forest or lighting a candle for her in some sacred spot and trying to bring healing energy to her. And when she passed, this exploded into these testimonials and continued interest in her and doing prayers for her and lighting candles for her. And most interesting of all, and this is the weird topper to all of this, is that. So here we were. We had just finished, or so we thought, the unobstructed way, this book about Stuart Edward White and his wife Betty. It's a phenomenal book about life after death. And strangely, Betty died just before the book was published, and Stuart had to write an afterword because Betty made herself known, not just to him, but to a whole bunch of people. So when Tamara took ill and passed, I was stunned. Just the fact that this occurred in this way to begin with, and then by the outreach of people that continued to pray for her. But then I suddenly got reports of visitations that piled up and that these included visual, you know, apparitions, they included audio apparitions, they included dream visitations, they included omens, lots of scarabs, lots of butterflies, but weird experiences around these creatures. And so I had to rewrite the last chapter of the book in order to capture all of this and to share with people that this had happened. And that as it happened with Betty, the Tamara had somehow come back and was making herself known to people and people who had never even known her and people who didn't believe in this stuff. And then there were corroborations within the reports, certain things that she did or said or that were common to many of them, and that was really amazing. And she also had a visitation with me that was very powerful. After the first week Because I was broken. I mean, first, the stunning swiftness of it was just unfathomable. And we'd always joked that together we made one good human being. And I really felt like a broken half. And I didn't know how I would live. I mean, I still very much get overcome by grief and by this terrible longing just to be with her wherever she is. It's hard for me to be interested in life. And I knew that I was going to have to, after the first week, face the issues of cremation, and I would have to see her ashes and all these horrible things, death certificates, and just this heartless way that society deals with death. And I was terrified because I was already crushed. And all of my training, all of my meditation, all of my work with the Golden Flower weren't helping me because this amazing presence in my life was gone. And she was smarter than me. She was funny. She was loud and boisterous and wonderful. And every day she was like the sun shining on me. And now it was like the sun had gone out. And I felt like everything in the world was as colorless as her ashes. I certainly felt that I was. And the city, everything just seemed so bleak. And I didn't know how I was going to do these things I had to do. I had to deal with wills and lawyers and accountants and just awful things. Bureaucracy and heartless bureaucracy. People calling me, for example, from the hospital about bills who thought she was still alive. I mean, the hospital didn't even tell them that she had passed. So they were saying, yeah, can I speak to Tamara? And then when I would tell them, no, you can't, because she passed in the hospital, they would say, oh, why don't they tell us that? And then they would tell me a few things and get off the phone with a have a good one. Have a good one. I'd been crying on the phone. And so my friends rallied around me, and that was sweet, and brought me food and told Tamra stories, but I was bereft. Well, one night, she visited me in a very powerful way, and it changed my whole perspective. It was like she imparted to me her perspective, which was things like bodies and ashes and death certificates are trivialities. They're nothing. It was like a saying that she had. She said that we all come to this sandbox to learn, but then in the end, everything here returns to the sand. But we're not only sand, we're also stars. And she gave me that perspective. And that's the perspective of the Golden Flower that's the perspective of the unobstructed universe. It was that. No, what matters is I'm here. I'm here with you. I'm loving you. Do you feel that love? And boy, could I. And we had been when she was in the hospital and she asked me not to spend the night with her because she wanted me to sleep and to take care of the cats. I would say to her, do you feel it? Do you feel me sending you love? Because every night, I'm sending you love. And she was like, yeah, I feel it. So she returned it to me a hundredfold in this one visitation and just surrounded me with an undeniable feeling of love. And the intimate presence that Stuart Edward White had talked about when Betty did that for him. And in her case, there was a. It was almost like she ravished me. I mean, it was almost sexual. There was a union of our souls, in a sense, that occurred that was so powerful in this liminal state. It wasn't a dream. It wasn't reality. It was something more potent than a dream, more real. And so I came out of it, and I said, I want a Tamra. And I felt this wave of love that was just so glorious, you know? And it was her. And from that moment on, I could deal with all those trivialities, which to me, is the ultimate proof that this happened. This isn't simply bereavement hallucination. This was a transformation. She freed my soul and helped me to. As she. The mantra that I hear from her often, well, I'll tell this story. So one thing that's been showing up with dragonflies, with people and weird dragonfly behavior, and she loved dragonflies. And dragonflies were connected, I'm told, to the ancient Egyptian God Ra, or Ra, as some people pronounce it. And Tamra was very proud that her name, even though her parents didn't know it, met the perfection of Ra. And as we talked once about it, she was way into Sekhmet, the Egyptian lioness goddess. And so these dragonflies, as creatures of Ra, were making appearances all over the place, as were these brilliant metallic green scarabs. And I heard a story from somebody about how she was visited by an onyx dragonfly. And even though this was after she lifted me, I was still feeling regrets. You know, we're only human. It always reminds me of what Basho said about the founder of Shingon Buddhism, Kobo Daiichi, that he said that they say that you don't suffer after you achieve enlightenment. But I still cried when I had to say Farewell to a loved one. And so I was still feeling bereft. I mean, it still gets me every day. I mean, the loss, the things that I run into in the house, the experiences I realized suddenly I'm never going to have again. I wake up every morning expecting to find her next to me. I still do. It's a form of denial. Or maybe she's there. And so I was sitting by our pool with my feet in the pool, and I was feeling very grief stricken and thinking, could I have somehow prevented this? Could I have taken better care of her? Maybe, you know, because I had. I wanted to call the ambulance the first day that she got ill, seriously ill, but she forbade it. And she told me, she said, ronnie, I'm Tamra. I want to stay Tamra until I die. I don't want to be turned into something else by medical bureaucracy. I didn't realize what she was saying to me was, I want to die at home now. I couldn't have done that. I simply could not have let her die without any medical intervention. I mean, I just couldn't have done it. And I couldn't have let go. And she actually said to me in the hospital, it could have been so easy. I said to her, tamara, you're not saying what I. You know, I mean, maybe it was weak for me to let you go into the hospital and suffer there unnecessarily. Although I thought she was coming home, and I was told that she would be home in a couple of days. Something went very crazy at the hospital, but she had not seen a doctor in 40 years. I mean, just a healthy, really healthy woman. And like Betty, weirdly youthful throughout her life, still blonde, in the hospital, still gorgeous and young. You would have thought she was in her early 20s. And so there I was, sitting there thinking, what if I'd call the ambulance sooner? What if I'd done this or that. And suddenly a big black onyx colored dragonfly, just like the one in the report that I'd received a couple days earlier, showed up at the pool. I'd never seen one like that before, and started doing tight circles around me and almost landed on my knee. And Tamara loved to sit on my lap or sit on my knee. And so I said. I said out loud, Tamra. And started dancing all around me. And I heard in my head her voice. I love her voice. And that's one of the things I miss the most. That and her laughter. She said, and she's been saying it to me a lot. Live up to what you know, Live up to what you know. And I said, okay. Okay, I will. I promise. And this dragonfly flew right at my face and then up over me and flew away into the sky. And so that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to live up to what I know, because. And this is a challenge for all of us who follow spiritual paths because we read about this stuff, we practice meditations, we even have experiences that give us inklings of what this is about. But when it actually happens, when you lose someone and you face the reality of the grief and of the loss, it can just drown you in grief. And suddenly you realize that the intellectual understanding is not really living up to what you know. And then the challenge becomes, how do we do that? Now, when I can achieve that, I'm trying to stabilize it, but I've not. When I can achieve that, my perspective of life is very different. And I want to share this with people in case people are listening who are dealing with grief. Grief is a liminal state. And so there are various kinds of grief. And the kind that's most familiar has, of course, been described in the stages of grief, anger and denial and bargaining and all that. Which, ironically, was the first book she ever gave me very early in our relationship, because she had read it. She was a Capricorn with Saturn conjunct the sun. So she was into stuff like that. And I understand that kind of grief, and I see it playing in my life. I definitely went through an angry stage where I felt like. Like, how could you abandon me? You know, I'm the. I'm the bat. I'm the dumb one. Like. Like I'm the one who doesn't know how to do anything. And now I've got to learn how to cook, and I got to learn how to, you know, do things and take care of the cats and keep the house running and all these things. I would help her, but I didn't know how to do it. She'd say, do this and do that, you know, And I went through. My form of denial was, I think, is more, as I mentioned, the feeling that she was there, not in the sense of a spiritual understanding, but just feeling like she's going to walk through the door. Feeling like when I wake up in the morning, like she's there. I will wake up from a dream, like I often did, to say, tamara, I just had this weird. And then the loss hits me. Oh, my God. She's not there, and she's never going to be there. She's gone. I Still haven't been able to get rid of a lot of her stuff. You know, I did a lot of house cleaning, but her vanity, for example, is still untouched with her hair in the brush. And Normandy Ellis had this great idea. She said, keep the hair in the brush until spring and then put it in the garden and let the birds make nests with it. That's exactly what I'm going to do. And so there are things that I have kept the utensils I made coffee with for her every morning. And she loved the way I made coffee for her. And I would put the coffee down in front of her and she would say, yum, I can't put them away. I can't get rid of them. They're right there. In fact, her shoes, her sandals with rhinestone decorations are waiting for her at the front door. Weird, you know, but it gives me comfort. I'm wearing her shirt right now. It gives me comfort. I wear some of her jewelry. And so that kind of grief that's, in a way, I think it's not what the book meant by bargaining, but in a way it is. It's. Well, I can have some of Tamra here just by seeing these things. And that kind of grief at its worst, as I already described, becomes a terrible bleakness. You become consumed by the sense of loss. This is something that Burton, in the Anatomy of Melancholy warned against. He said, if you let this stay on you, it will eat your life and you will never get out of it. And this happens to people. They become lost in grief. And so I felt that so deeply. I would be talking to friends who came over and were being very sweet and supportive and saying the right things, and it was like they were phantoms. And all I was sitting in was this grief. I would look out at the city. The whole city seemed like a giant graveyard to me. And my own life seemed unlivable. I could not understand how I could go on, because even the work of finishing our books, because there's a few that are unfinished, of tending her legacy, which I intend to do, seeing the impact she had on people, I want to make sure that her story is told, that it stays out there in the world. Those things even seemed empty and trivial. And the longing can approach almost suicidal magnitude, where you feel like, I don't care. I'd want to be with her, or if she's in non existence and I don't want to exist, that kind of thing. And all of your training and reading and study and meditation can just fall to the side, because love is so strong. And when love is broken that way, it's this feeling that rushes up in you and it takes away your hunger to live and your appetite for food and your optimism about the world and the future. But grief also, thanks to her visitation, I experienced this higher side of it, which I've been working on so hard to achieve for a long time, and failed to. Obviously, that's different. It's a perspective on life where you feel like, well, I will be with her. Life is a blink of an eye. And I was very fortunate to have this amazing experience. Two souls got together here and got to live this amazing romance and reinvent themselves and stay out of the world of bureaucracy for most of our lives. And we became the kind of not really a good word to use anymore, but bohemians that we longed to be. And we had tremendous adventures. I remember sitting with her not too long before she became really ill. She was exhausted, very stressed. She didn't like what's going on in the world today at all, and she really couldn't find any way to address it. In the past, she had been very active and been able to do a lot of things through music and film. But the way the world has shifted in Los Angeles, there was almost no musicians around because nobody can afford to live here. And Covid had also made it impossible for us to work with musicians that we had known. And films were hard to find because documentaries. I mean, there was no money for anything. The film she worked on, about Standing Rock, which was nominated for an Emmy, was the only project she was able to work on. And that was funded at first all by $25 donations from a GoFundMe from all across the world. And she couldn't really feel like writing was going to do it because not a lot of people read. She used to be able to get involved politically. So when Obama ran, she and Danny Goldberg, who had stayed friends all these years, even though we didn't sign with him ever, in fact, he called her when she was in ICU to talk to her and to tell her he loves her. They work together to bring artists like Bruce Springsteen to key counties to swing the election for Obama. And so that girl who all her life, think of all the things I've mentioned, still fighting bullies, right? That was what her whole life was about. The films that she worked on, the music that she worked on, her writing was all about fighting bullies, about defending the weak and the innocent. And so she was a warrior for justice. And her seeing what was happening to our friends, terrible Things that happened to friends of ours because of what's happening now. Seeing that this was just like this army of bullies unleashed on the world and feeling helpless, stressed her out terribly. And I believe this was a major cause of what happened. The doctors, by the way, were not certain what happened. They knew why she got sick, but they didn't really understand why she died. And I think that on one hand, I do think there may be a medical malpractice thing that happened there for reasons I won't go into. But I also think that she made a decision that she realized that she could not continue as Tamra and that it was time to go, and she didn't want to live through any more of this nonsense that's going on. And so she was somebody who had her whole life kind of that attitude that these things like death certificates are trivialities. And I used to drive her crazy because I would get freaked out about things like that. I have epigenetic trauma, being from a Holocaust survivor family, so I can turn on that trauma pretty quick. But somehow she came into this life, and despite the abuse that she suffered, she had that understanding. Like, she didn't put it into spiritual terms when I first met her, but to her, a plant was just as important a life as a human being. An animal was just as important to her consciousness everywhere. Not that we were superior and everything else is for us. And she treated everything in the world with respect, except people who abused the world. She also had an unbelievable wit. You know, when she was first in icu, she had a breathing tube and she couldn't talk. And within five minutes of them taking that out, she started to talk. And she had the nurses and doctors giggling with the things she was saying. That's the kind of person she was. She would light any situation up, and she would make people laugh, and she just had this joy about her, even though her humor could be very dark and pointed if needed, but always in a way that was intended to wake people up to what they were really doing. And, yeah, it was just an incredible privilege to be around a human being like that for so many years, every single day. I mean, I'll be honest, I hoarded her, you know, like, I didn't want to share her with people. I just wanted to be with her all the time and just drink in this presence, this amazing elevation of spirit that she had.

[C]

Do you have any plans for yourself at this point?

[A]

Well, there's some talk that there might be a celebration of her life at the Philosophical Research Society. And I would like that. I think Manly hall would like that. They told me that they feel that she and I were Manly Hall's spiritual children. And I think there's some truth to that. And I think that what she became after the influence of Manly hall and after Marie's good advice is such a testimony and testament to what Manly hall was. And just as the transformation in me. Because although she was the first step in that transformation, as we discussed, Manly Hall's the one who made me realize that I was intelligent and gave me a passion for culture and for civilization and for knowing about all the religions and spiritual paths. And all that passion was transmitted to me and also to her. So. And I think the work that we did, I don't think Manly hall would have been crazy about Riot Girl, but I think Marie would have been a Riot Girl if she'd been born at a different time, as Tammy pointed out. And certainly Manly hall supported her as a feminist and wanted to see women. He once told me that there was no more noble path for a man to take in this world than to support the dreams of the woman that he loves. And he also sent me to read some quotes by Eliphas Levi, who said that until the genders are balanced in this world, it will be a hell world. And so I think that at heart, he understood exactly where Riot Grrrl was coming from, even though he never heard of it. And the films that we worked on were, you know, films that shed light on either people who had been forgotten or art that was being suppressed and censored. So, for instance, we worked on a film about Mia Zapata, the murdered singer of the band the Gitz. And we worked on a film about an amazing duo of hip hop poets called Los Aldianos, who were illegal in Cuba. You weren't even allowed to have their music, and yet they would do these big shows and everybody knew their lyrics, and they were sort of a cultural revolution in themselves. And we worked on a film about this is the kind of girl she was. So she worked to get Obama elected, and then Obama had this horrible deportation policy, and it resulted in a bunch of people who were, for all practical purposes, born and raised in America. I mean, maybe not born here, but raised in America. They were living in the sewers of Zona Norte in Tijuana, and she was horrified by it. And so we began to work on a documentary about it. And we wound up working with Edward James Olmos on it. And so she wouldn't just stay loyal because, well, that's the Guy I voted for, he's a Democrat. She was like, no, he's doing something wrong. That has to be pointed out. People need to know. And. And then she worked as a. She was the one who. There was a film called 99%, the Occupy Wall street film that was done by, I think it was a hundred different directors, and she was the one at all the occupies all around the country. They would send the film, the raw footage that was being taken at the occupies, to her to bin for the directors and producers to use so that they had each thing was in its proper city. And then she also introduced the primary directors to the Brooklyn Film Co Op. And she was always doing things like that and then wound up in this film, the Women of Standing Rock, End of the Line, the Women of Standing Rock, which was about the leaders of Standing Rock, who were predominantly women. And she got an associate producer credit on that because she did so much to help the film, not even wanting a credit, just doing what she could to help out. So I think that that's something that Manly hall would be very proud of, and proud of how she blossomed from the Silent Girl that he knew, that he used to like to make giggle when Marie was talking too much, and how she turned into this force of nature who changed many people's lives. So that's one thing I'm thinking about. And I'm also. I'm going to finish, of course, the Unobstructed Universe, which will be coming out soon. I'm sorry, the Unobstructed Way, which will be coming out soon, and we'll do some podcasts. She was very much on me about being indiscriminate about my podcast appearances. And that's one of the regrets that I had, is I spent a lot of time in the last two years of our lives together doing podcasts. I must have done close to 200. And I didn't really care who invited me. I felt that if I reached one person, it was worthwhile. And she kept telling me, pearls before swine, Ronnie, you're just cheapening your own thing because you're only as good as the people that interview you. And so it's telling that you were just about the only one she was willing to do an interview with. And so I felt pretty bad, in retrospect, that I spent all that time doing that, not only because it created a body of work that wasn't me at my best, but also because I could have been spending the time with her. And so I won't be doing as many But I will be doing some to support that book. And then I have a book about the Rosicrucians coming out. The day before she got sick, this woman cooked two meals and edited the entire last chapter of my Rosicrucian book. And we made love, and she watched the no Kings protest and was very happy about it. And then the next day, that's when it all went south. And that's part of the reason that I was so hesitant in those five days, because I just thought, well, my God, I mean, she was fine just a moment ago, you know? But that's a warning to everybody. You know, it can happen with a terrible swiftness, and one must pay attention. So I will work on that. There's also a book about Sekhmet that I think will be coming out that we had been working on. And she had a memoir. She got about 100 pages into it, and I found notes all over the place in her journals for it. So I want to see that completed. And I'm not sure exactly how yet. I may invite people who knew her to write about the times that she didn't get to write about. So it'll be a group effort, or I might try myself to go in there and to write as best I can. But, Jeffrey, it's terrible because not only was she my best editor by far, but she's so funny, and her memory was so sharp and mine isn't. And it just breaks my heart that she wasn't able to finish that memoir because it would have been brilliant. And I know I can't achieve the level that she would have. But I also hope to, in a sense, channel I want to meditate and to do what Stuart did and get as close to her as I can so that she can guide me in that process and we can at least get somewhere near what she was intending to accomplish with that memoir. Other than that. The funny thing is that each of those things are reasons for me to live and give my life purpose. But I'm scared of when they're over, when I finish them. And I have to have faith that other things will come up for me to do. And. And I know that I'm here to do these things. There's a reason I'm here. My skill set is very different from hers. And I. I can do interviews. I can do public appearances in a way that she wasn't comfortable with unless she had a guitar strapped on. And so I. I figure I'm here to do something, to tell our story and. And to somewhere there are people out there who, like her, wrote in their journal or in their social media, there's no such thing as true love. And I want them to know that, yes, there is.

[C]

Well, Ronnie, this is an incredible testament to a powerful and glorious relationship that's still ongoing.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Even across dimensions.

[A]

That's also a beautiful aspect of it, because to be able to experience that is a privilege that. Again, trying to live up to what I know, to get to the point where it's as natural for me as it was for Stuart. And, of course, this was a guy who was in Africa when nobody had mapped it out. And, I mean, this was. I mean, I'm not nowhere near that kind of a human being, but he is my example. And I actually have a little note that he wrote to somebody that's up on the refrigerator with his signature on it so I can touch it. And it's just like, I want to be like Stuart. I want to do the job. And when I look at what happened with them, you know, Betty dies in 1939. The book comes out in August. An example, by the way, of how Google's AI is wrong, because Google's AI said the book came out January 1st, but I have a copy of the original first printing, and it came out in August, about one month before the blitzkrieg overran Poland, and most of my relatives would be killed within a year or two. And Betty dies right before the war breaks out, about four months before the book is published in summer, just like Tamra. And then Stuart stays through 46, and what he's basically doing is answering letters, meeting with people, keeping Betty's work alive so that people who are losing their loved ones have hope. And so I hope we don't have a war or something like that, but things are bad enough anyway. Right now. I feel like maybe that's my job, is to keep the work alive, to talk about it, to be out there representing true love, representing life after death, representing the teachings of the unobstructed universe and of metaphysics in general. And I'm hopeful that a friend of mine said, well, you know, with all the new tech that's coming out, we could easily live another 30, 40 years. And I said, oh, God, I hope not. I said, I, you know, like, I'd be fine with Stewart's. You know, what was that? Seven, eight years, whatever that was. Like, that sounds good to me. That's, like, not too long to be away from Tamra, because even though it is beautiful when you. You have that experience like she did for me. When she came to me and filled me with love and with a union of our souls and. And changed my whole perspective and just lifted it to another level. Even though she can talk in my ear now, I've heard her say to me, ronnie, like she would in real life, but I'm doing something stupid. It's not the same. It's not the same as looking into those amazing blue eyes and seeing a universe of love looking back at you. That's not the same as hearing her laugh or waking up to her tickling my back or some of the best things of all. Finding something that I knew would thrill her and bringing it to her and seeing that huge smile on her face and that voice that I love so much. I mean, those things. That's the beauty. You know, people demonize this life. And we have a problem in patriarchal religion where this life is seen by many as being a trap and a world of suffering. And it shouldn't be joyous. If it's joyous, that's bad for your soul. And I'm here to tell you, when two souls are lucky enough to find each other and have what we had, yeah, it's a little bit like making best friends with somebody in prison or something, right? But it's still beautiful, every little moment of it. The little acts of kindness, the generosity, the moments of brilliance, the way they have your back, the way you can do things together. You can get so much more done together than you can alone. All these little miracles and just the wonder of being in each other's presence. And even the small irritations which I found have more to do with the families we came from, with bad habits we learned as children, from our families, from what we experienced at school and things like that. And they produce habits that were annoying to each other. But even those are who we were and are, and they're beautiful. And there's a comfort in them that they're our annoyances. And what I wouldn't give to have the things that annoyed me about her right now. You know, it's all part of one beautiful experience of something mysterious and inexplicable we call life. And I know that the unobstructed is supposed to be so much more brilliant and wonderful. And everybody who has visitations of her says, for the most part, how joyous she is and how free and how she's just reveling in the freedom of being in the unobstructed universe. But for me, I'm looking at the miracle of what it's like when we're both in the obstructed. And how growing together and having this romantic life. So as I was saying, just before she became ill, we had this conversation. I was just trying to focus her on appreciation because as a sort of a balm against the news. And I was saying, think about the life we had, you know, like, think about all the romantic things we did. Like when I asked her to marry me, we didn't even intend to really get married, but I wanted to ask her. We were in Australia at William Rickett Sanctuary and there were pink ibises tapping on our table, all surrounding us. And I said, will you marry me, Tamara? And I had a ring for her of garnets. And she said yes. And. And then when she passed, thanks to a couple of friends, I wrote a prayer to Sekhmet. And that prayer was delivered to the feet of the Sekhmet statue in the shrine at Karnak. Those kind of magical moments can only be had in the obstructed world. It's like poetry or a symphony. And when you're lucky enough to have a life like that, it's something so deeply beautiful and soul enriching. So I want to encourage everyone who's listening, don't get caught up in the mass delusions, what the whites used to call the Neanderthal superstitions of life. This is what happens when I'm this age, and this is what I should expect from this. This is how we all do it. Live a poem, live a symphony. Like, dare to love, like really love. If you love somebody, like, love all out. And be yourselves, be individuals, because only you can be that. Tamra, one of a kind. Every little thing about her, her genetics, how she grew up, the astrology of her birth, the Sabian symbols for each degree of her planetary placements, the music she listened to when she was a kid, the jewelry she had when she was a kid, everything was unique. And that's true for all of us. And there'll never be another Tamara. That's what's heartbreaking to me right now, because it was like she was designed for me. But part of that is because she became an individual and she was always an individual. And so let's all be individuals and let's give each other the greatest gifts that we can by being individuals and encouraging each other to be individuals and to love wholeheartedly. And when you do that, life can be really magical. And although I'm grief stricken and she had a rough five days in the hospital, and I feel bad about that, but she left in 10 days. And after not being ill once in over 40 years, that's possible. So we shouldn't get caught up in what people think are the only ways that things happen. We should dare to dream, and we might be surprised that the dreams come true.

[C]

Well, Ronnie, what a heartfelt.

[B]

Confession.

[C]

I'm very touched. And of course, I'm going to be your friend and following your work in your life as long as you are here, as long as we are both here on this earth. It's a blessing for me and for the new thinking allowed audience to hear about this wonderful story and especially how each of you transformed each other.

[A]

Love is so powerful and the way we held each other up, because one of the things about us was we would come into a new world like the PRs and we loved it there. We never wanted to leave. And then we were told to leave, and then we had to start from nothing again. And then there we were in the world of Riot Grrrl. And we loved Riot Grrrl because Riot Grrrl was, in a way, like a mystery school. And all the things that were missing at PRS for me were Riot Girl about learning how to truly treat women equally and learning what it's like to be female in our society. And I always tell people, go talk to the women in your life and really find out what it means. You know, Tamara was tormented most of her life because she was an attractive blonde. Even as a child, you know, people thought she was privileged, and it wasn't a privilege. She was picked on mercilessly by men and by jealous women. And she didn't even get some of the credit she deserved because people just thought that she was a dumb blonde by looking at her. There's so much we can learn from each other. And so when Riot Girl ended, now what are we going to do? What kind of qualifications do we have PRS and Riot Girl? Well, film all of a sudden became what we did. And we had amazing experiences doing these documentaries. And there was a time when we were the only people in the world that had all the music of Los Aldianos, because it could have been taken away at any moment by the Cuban government. And so we were the repository of all of their music on CDs, and we got to listen to it and be inspired by it. And then after the film, stuff kind of died out and Covid hit books.

[C]

And she got other authors published, including authors I've interviewed.

[A]

Exactly. And so I want to try to be like Tamara. That's one of my goals. Going forward, I want to try to be there for people, to see them, to hear them, to give them good advice, to sense when they need me, to contact them, to get them book contracts, to do what Tamra did to make this a better world.

[C]

It's a worthy ambition, and I'd say you're well on your way.

[A]

Oh, thank you, Jeffrey. I hope we'll be talking soon. I'm excited to talk to you about the unobstructed way, and then we can talk about these visitations that she's made.

[C]

I'd be very interested in anything you have to say at any time, Ronnie.

[A]

Oh, thank you. Thank you, Jeffrey. That's so kind of you.

[C]

I really appreciate it, and I mean it sincerely.

[A]

I chose you as the one to speak to for a reason.

[C]

Well, I feel honored.

[A]

Well, thank you.

[C]

And it's an honor for me to share you with the New Thinking Allowed audience as well.

[A]

Thank you. And what a lovely audience.

[C]

Thank you once again, Ronnie. And for those of you watching or listening, thank you for being with us because you are the reason that we are here.

[A]

Book four in the new Thinking Allowed dialogue series is Charles T. Tart, 70 years of exploring Consciousness and parapsychology, now available on Amazon.

[B]

New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body, and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website at cihs. Edu. You can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingalowed.org.