Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Episode: Robert Anton Wilson and the Origins of Chaos Magick
Guest: Gabriel Kennedy (aka Prop Anon)
Host: Jeffrey Mishlove
Date: November 21, 2025

This episode delves into the historical and conceptual roots of chaos magick, tracing its evolution from the countercultural ideas of Robert Anton Wilson to its present-day incarnations. Multimedia artist and author Gabriel Kennedy, an expert on Wilson and chaos magick, joins Jeffrey Mishlove to discuss the potent influences of Wilson, Discordianism, and the broader esoteric tradition, culminating in the modern chaos magick movement and its notable figures like Grant Morrison.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction to Robert Anton Wilson (03:13-05:18)

• Robert Anton Wilson’s Significance:
  • Wilson was a novelist, journalist, scholar of esoterica, and a central figure in the counterculture, especially through his classic "The Illuminatus! Trilogy" co-authored with Robert Shea.
  • His work bridged political paranoia, psychology, magic, and alternative belief systems, introducing many to Thelema, Aleister Crowley, and eventually chaos magick.
  • Wilson’s influence started immediately with "Illuminatus!" in 1975, which became foundational to Discordianism—a "religion disguised as a joke" or "joke disguised as a religion"—revolving around the worship of the Goddess of Chaos, Eris.
• Impact on British Counterculture:
  • The 1977-78 Ken Campbell stage adaptation in London injected Wilson’s ideas directly into UK counterculture, inspiring artists and magicians, notably Peter Carroll, one of chaos magick’s founders.

Discordianism, Eris, and the Mythic Roots (07:53-14:00)

• The Myth of Eris and The Golden Apple:

  • Eris, the Greek goddess of chaos, famously kindled the Trojan War by tossing a golden apple inscribed "to the fairest" among rivals.
  • In the late 1950s, Kerry Thornley and Greg Hill claimed a vision of Eris in a California bowling alley, spurring the Principia Discordia and Discordianism.
  • Discordianism asserted that all order is imposed on chaos, and that recognizing chaos is essential to understanding existence.

• Illuminatus! and the British Scene:

  • The London play adaptation impacted up-and-coming magicians and artists, such as Peter Carroll and Ray Sherwin, who would elaborate chaos magick principles.

Origins and Structure of Chaos Magick (14:00-23:25)

• Founders and Foundational Texts:
  • Peter Carroll and Ray Sherwin authored "Liber Null" and "The Book of Results," outlining the first chaos magick system.
  • Austin Osman Spare’s concept of the sigil provided a groundbreaking, accessible magical practice—encoding desires into symbolic images and charging them in altered states (gnosis), before forgetting them to bypass conscious resistance.
  • William S. Burroughs’ cut-up method and Robert Anton Wilson’s notion that "belief is a tool" rounded out the movement’s philosophical core.

“The biggest maxim or tool of Bob's influence is the idea that belief is a tool to be used to acquire your desires. And one can pick up beliefs and discard beliefs and get better at it.”—Gabriel Kennedy (21:48)

Reality Tunnels and Key Concepts (22:08-28:08)

• Reality Tunnels:
  • Wilson’s "reality tunnel" explains that individuals use belief systems to shape their perception—these can be adopted and discarded at will.
  • This flexibility, skepticism, and use of belief as a tool were essential to chaos magicians from Carroll, Sherwin, and Hein, to modern torchbearers like Grant Morrison.
• Influence of Grant Morrison:
  • Morrison, a comic book legend, exemplifies the application of chaos magick to creative and personal success, notably in his comic "The Invisibles."

Phases of Chaos Magick’s Evolution (23:44-28:31)

• Four Historical Phases (per Pete Carroll, via Kennedy):

  1. Grassroots (late 70s): Small, charismatic, DIY circles spreading innovative magical techniques.
  2. Institutional/Commercial (late 80s–90s): Chaos magick texts enter mainstream occult publishing and wider subcultural adoption.
  3. Digital Disruption (2000s): Online social networks (like Maybe Logic Academy) and forums expand reach and pedagogical approaches.
  4. Social Media/TikTok Era (present): Widely popular and often memetic, chaos magick finds renewed energy through digital platforms.

• Maybe Logic Academy:

  • Robert Anton Wilson’s online school hosted classes by Wilson, Carroll, and others, providing digital-age classes in chaos magick—featuring practices like the "five phases" of magical workings.

The Paradox of Systematizing Chaos (28:31-33:30)

• Balancing Chaos and Order:
  • Chaos magick paradoxically seeks to systematize chaos, maintaining skepticism of the occult while practicing it ("an occult system of magic that's skeptical of the occult"—Phil Hine).
  • Organizational tension: Groups like the Temple of Psychic Youth (Genesis P-Orridge) mirrored cults, then disbanded as they became too cult-like.
  • The importance of flexibility and adaptability—making magic and even servitors one’s own, resisting rote tradition.

The Five Stages of a Magical Working (33:30-40:55)

1. Enchantment: Setting intentions over time ("getting what you want by casting spells").
2. Divination: Using intuition and imagery to explore possible futures.
3. Evocation: Creating or summoning spirits (preferably original servitors over "book" spirits).
4. Invocation: Experiencing deities or archetypes within yourself (Wilson’s work in "Cosmic Trigger" provided influential examples).
5. Illumination: Gaining new or transformed knowledge.

• Integration with Business: Carroll taught "Chaos Business," fusing magical working with business development and wealth—students used "colored boxes" (each reflecting a magical current of the chaosphere) for targeted ritual work.

The Chaosphere and Eightfold Magic (40:55-53:10)

• The Chaosphere: Black sphere with eight radiating arrows, each assigned a color and magical function:
  • Yellow (ego), Red (war), Orange (thinking), Purple (sex), Black (death), Blue (wealth), Green (love), Octarine (pure/personal magic).

“Octarine is sort of a fictional color...signify[ing] your own personal pure magic. According to Carroll, we all have this—the inner Chaos Magician who already knows what to do.” —Gabriel Kennedy (41:52)

• Parallel to John C. Lilly and Wilson’s 8-Circuit Model: The chaosphere’s eight directions echo Leary and Wilson's model of intelligence/psychic circuits.

• Grant Morrison’s "The Invisibles" as Hyper-Sigil:

  • Morrison viewed the entire series as a magical act, explicitly using ritual, sigils, and cutting-up narrative to alter reality and personal fortune—demonstrating chaos magick’s principles in action.

• Magic and Imagination:

  • The power of the mind and imagination is central to chaos magick (as in acting, visualization, and ritual).

Chapel Perilous and Navigating the Unknown (53:10-57:44)

• Chapel Perilous:
  • A metaphor for challenging, transformative liminal spaces encountered on the esoteric path, both existential and magical.
  • Wilson adapted the phrase from T.S. Eliot and Arthurian legend, signifying the seeker’s encounter with fear and uncertainty but urging perseverance and inner compassion.
  • Life itself is akin to a collective Chapel Perilous, especially in uncertain times.

"Look at the state of the earth right now. Look at the state of the world—we are collectively living through a Chapel Perilous. No one is going to save us except ourselves...We have to find Jesus within ourselves and act compassionately towards one another." —Gabriel Kennedy (54:45)

• Wilson’s Legacy:
  • The importance of remaining open yet skeptical, pushing against cynicism, and seeking refined experiences of life despite adversity.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Belief as a Tool:

  • "The biggest maxim or tool of Bob's influence is the idea that belief is a tool to be used to acquire your desires. And one can pick up beliefs and discard beliefs and get better at it." —Gabriel Kennedy (21:48)

• On Systematizing Chaos:

  • "How do you contain chaos? That's an oxymoronic sort of state… Phil Hine said...it's a system, an occult system of magic that's skeptical of the occult." —Gabriel Kennedy (28:31)

• Grant Morrison as Modern Torchbearer:

  • "He is a great case study in utilizing magic and chaos magic to make your life more fun and to get rich in the meantime...he carries the torch of what Wilson was about." —Gabriel Kennedy (00:00 and 22:51)

• On Chapel Perilous:

  • "Look at the state of the world—we are collectively living through a Chapel Perilous. No one is going to save us except ourselves...We have to find Jesus within ourselves and act compassionately towards one another." —Gabriel Kennedy (54:45)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:13 — Intro to Robert Anton Wilson & his cultural impact
• 07:53 — Illuminatus!, Discordianism, and the myth of Eris
• 14:00 — The invention of chaos magick: Carroll, Sherwin, Spare, and sigil magic
• 20:51 — Burroughs' cut-up method & Wilson’s philosophy in chaos magick
• 22:08 — Reality tunnels and belief as a tool
• 23:44 — Maybe Logic Academy & four phases of chaos magick’s evolution
• 28:31 — Systematizing chaos, skepticism, and paradox
• 33:30 — Carroll’s five stages of magical working
• 40:55 — The chaosphere and colored magic currents
• 45:00 — Grant Morrison’s "The Invisibles" as magical working
• 53:10 — Chapel Perilous and existential navigating
• 57:44 — Host’s closing reflections and mutual appreciation

Conclusion

This rich discussion mapped the arc of chaos magick from its mythic and literary seeds in Discordianism and the works of Robert Anton Wilson, through the foundational writings of Carroll, Sherwin, and Hein, to the multimedia manifestations in the work of Grant Morrison. Gabriel Kennedy’s firsthand accounts and analysis provide both historical context and practical insights, showing chaos magick as a living tradition balancing chaos with creative order, skepticism with practice, and imagination with reality hacking.