← New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Science, Philosophy, and the Afterlife with Chris Carter
00:40:28
Science, Philosophy, and the Afterlife with Chris Carter Chris Carter is a physics teacher who was educated at Oxford, England. He is author of four books that make him one of the most significant authors today exploring the question of life after deat...
Loading summary
Transcript56 lines
- [00:00]
Chris Carter
As I read more and more deeply into the literature, I became more and more convinced that we survived the deaths of our bodies. But then I began to wonder if I were fooling myself because I remembered the famous quote from you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.
- [00:20]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Keep watching to learn more.
- [00:22]
Chris Carter
Book 4 In the New Thinking Allow Dialogue Charles T. Tart 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology. Now available on Amazon.
- [00:36]
New Thinking Allowed Announcer
New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit, the topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cihs.edu. you can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingalowed.org.
- [01:23]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Thinking allowed conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery.
- [01:30]
Chris Carter
With Psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove.
- [01:39]
New Thinking Allowed Announcer
Hello and welcome.
- [01:40]
Jeffrey Mishlove
I'm Jeffrey Mishlove.
- [01:42]
New Thinking Allowed Announcer
Our topic today is Science, Philosophy and the afterlife. My guest is Chris Carter and a.
- [01:51]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Physics teacher who was educated at Oxford in England. He is the author of four books.
- [01:57]
New Thinking Allowed Announcer
That make him one of the most significant authors today exploring the question of life after death. His books include Science and the Near Death Experience, Science and Psychic Phenomena, Science.
- [02:15]
Jeffrey Mishlove
And the Afterlife Experience.
- [02:18]
New Thinking Allowed Announcer
His most recent book is the Case for the Evidence for Life After Death.
- [02:27]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Chris is in Canada and now I'll.
- [02:30]
New Thinking Allowed Announcer
Switch over to the Internet video.
- [02:33]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Welcome Chris. It's a pleasure to be with you. I've known you for years on the online survivalnet community. I consider you one of the foremost writers in the field of consciousness in the afterlife. So it's a real pleasure to invite you to New Thinking Allowed.
- [02:52]
Chris Carter
Yes, thank you Jeff, and thank you for having me on your show.
- [02:56]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Your work is very interesting because as a physics teacher you're really grounded in hardcore science and the argument you're making is that from the perspective of the most rigorous science and philosophy, it's hard to deny the existence of the afterlife.
- [03:17]
Chris Carter
I'd say that's an accurate statement. In my book, my latest book, the Case for the Afterlife, I make the case based upon five independent lines of evidence which are all very different from each other and which all point in the same direction.
- [03:33]
Jeffrey Mishlove
You also address many philosophical arguments that are sometimes sticklers for people who don't want to accept the evidence no matter how good it is. And you sometimes hear from skeptics statements like I wouldn't believe it even if it were true.
- [03:50]
Chris Carter
You Got that right.
- [03:52]
Jeffrey Mishlove
One of the key points that you address is the argument concerning dualism. Dualism, the idea that nature itself consists both of a mental reality and a physical reality and they sort of coexist. And I think that's the viewpoint that most people hold in their daily lives. I think people are naturally dualists, but scientists, philosophers argue for different reasons that dualism is illogical and impossible. And you address that issue, I think very strongly.
- [04:29]
Chris Carter
That's actually the very first chapter of my book in which I discuss the relationship between the mind and the brain. And I discuss the ancient doctrine of materialism which dates back to at least Democritus in ancient Greece, which basically says that all things ultimately have a material cause and that the mind is therefore produced by the brain. I don't accept that. I think the evidence indicates the brain acts as an intermediary between the body and the mind. Sometimes as sort of a two way transmitter receiver, sometimes from body to mind as in sense perception, other times from mind to body as in willed action. And the important thing to understand is that it isn't even necessary to invoke the so called paranormal in order to provide this evidence when we have, for instance, the phenomenon called terminal lucidity. Now this is probably not very well known to the general public, but for those individuals who work in care homes and hospitals and what have you, who work with the terminal terminally ill, they commonly report that in the days, the hours, even the minutes before the person departs, any signs of Alzheimer's dementia, injuries to the brain, they seem to completely disappear and the person becomes lucid, hence the name terminal lucidity. And there was a case that I described in my book of a woman who was suffering from a terminal case of Alzheimer's. She'd been little more than a babbling vegetable for the past decade, didn't even react to family members. And yet in about a day before she died, she suddenly seemed to wake up and asked the nurse to call her granddaughter. The granddaughter hurried to her bedside and found that she could converse with with her grandmother as just as easily as anybody else. Her granddaughter said that it was like talking to somebody who had been asleep for 10 years. And this woman had irreversible degradation of the cerebral cortex. It's estimated between somewhere between 5 and 10% of terminal Alzheimer's cases. The person who is at death's door will suddenly seem to wake up and conversed normally with friends and family and medical personnel.
- [07:10]
Jeffrey Mishlove
So what do you deduce from that with regard to the role of the.
- [07:14]
Chris Carter
Brain, the same thing that the ancients deduce. This phenomenon was well known to the ancients. Hippocrates wrote about it, Cicero, Galen and others. And they all held the view that as death approaches, the soul, or the mind, as we probably call it, is disengaging from the restrictions of a material brain, a damaged material brain. And then once the person dies, they're free to carry on without the damaged apparatus.
- [07:44]
Jeffrey Mishlove
If the soul disengages from the brain, as you say, before death, one would think the person would be drifting off into another realm. But what you're describing with terminal lucidity seems to be acute control over the nervous system, over the muscles that control the mouth, for example.
- [08:08]
Chris Carter
Well, it seems to be that the restrictions of a damaged brain are somehow loosening in a way that we don't really understand. It's like the damaged part of the brain is no longer having the same effect on the person's mind as it would as it formerly did. In other words, the brain. The brain is losing direct contact with the mind, or vice versa. So dualism. I. I do think that the evidence for dualism is conclusive. I think it comes not only from the. From the phenomenon, the medical phenomenon of deathbed visions. Also, it comes from one of the five lines of evidence that I discuss, which is especially the near death experience, especially cases such as those of Pam Reynolds, who was literally killed. Clinical death was initiated on the operating table in order so that they could remove an aneurysm at the very base of her brain without killing her permanently. So they drained all the blood from her head. They slowed and then stopped her heart, they stopped her breathing. At the same time, she had monitoring equipment, an EEG machine monitoring activity in her cerebral cortex. And they had her eyes taped shut, and they had clicking devices playing in her ear, trying to see if there were any activity in the lower brainstem. The lower brainstem, as you probably know, handles the autonomic nervous system. You know, the things like digestion, blinking things, things that are not under our direct control. And so by all three normal clinical measures, Pam was dead when they operated on her. And yet she reported when the surgery began, right when they were about to cut open her skull. She reported leaving her body and observing the scene below. And the surgeons later on were astonished because of the accuracy of her recall. She was describing saws that looked like electric toothbrushes, and she was surprised by it and other things. She recalled things that people said, bits of music that were played, details, the medical procedure. Then she also recalls Leaving and going to a misty area where she met her grand grandmother and her uncle and several other people that she knew. She talked to them for a while. They urged her to return. She said, pam, it's time to go back. She said, no, I don't want to go back. They said, pam, you've got two young children. She said, look, they'll be fine. They said, pam, you've got to go back. And so her uncle led her back to her body. She recalls hovering above her body on the operating table. She said it looked dead. She didn't want to return to it. She saw one of the surgeons apply electrical shocks to restart her heart. She saw her body sort of convulse a bit like that. And then she said she heard the surgeon say something like, we need to try again. Surgeon applied shocks the second time. She saw her body lurch the second time. And that's when her uncle, she says, pushed her into her body. She felt a pulling sensation as well from her body. And she said it was like jumping into a pool of ice water. It hurt, so she shouldn't. The interesting thing about that is Pam should not have known that her heart needed to be shocked twice in order to restart it, because sometimes they need to only need to shock the heart once, and it restarts twice, three times, four times. But she knew it was exactly twice. So that was. And at that time, when they did restart her heart, there's every reason to believe that Pamela was clinically dead by all three counts.
- [12:30]
Jeffrey Mishlove
What you're suggesting is that there's a mental realm that includes the afterlife, and it's completely separate from the physical body.
- [12:41]
Chris Carter
Dualism would state there's two aspects to reality, the mental and physical, or the psychical and the physical. If there's another reality, it may indeed have a different type of physical reality. In other words, be composed of matter that does not interact with the matter that we're normally accustomed to.
- [13:07]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, certainly esoteric traditions talk about the etheric realm or the astral realm, and the idea that there's some sort of subtle matter or subtle energy that science has yet to discover, but eventually we will understand it's just a different form of what we think of as material or physical reality. I gather, then you're open to that possibility also.
- [13:34]
Chris Carter
Well, we all should be open to that possibility. I mean, the type of matter that we normally work with in our physical universe, it's only about 5% of the total. I mean, 95% of the universe consists of matter and energy, which we see simply do not understand. I'm referring, of course, to the dark matter and dark energy. We call it dark energy, but we don't even know what it is. And dark matter does not interact with our ordinary matter in any way. But we know it must exist because of its gravitational influence.
- [14:11]
Jeffrey Mishlove
One could infer from that that there are many anomalies, mysteries in science that have yet to be explained away. And the evidence for the afterlife could be viewed as simply another anomaly that science doesn't yet understand, but for which we have a vast body of empirical information.
- [14:34]
Chris Carter
Okay, I'd go along with that. I do think that what we don't know in science and philosophy vastly exceeds what little we do know, or think we do know.
- [14:46]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, one of the major critiques of the idea of survival after death comes from within the parapsychology community. It comes from all the evidence that we have for extrasensory perception and psychokinesis. In other words, the extraordinary ability of living agents. There are people within the parapsychology community, I think, going back to the days of J.B. rhine, who would suggest that it is conceivable that all the evidence supposedly for life after death might be explained in terms of the psychic functioning of the living. And I know you take on that argument very extensively in your book that's.
- [15:36]
Chris Carter
Known as the living agent psi or living agent ESP hypothesis. I think that that living agent ESP hypothesis is basically the idea that it started off at least as the idea that when a medium is sitting with a sitter, the medium, with regards to some departed person that the sitter is there to ask about, the medium is somehow in telepathic rapport with the sitter and is picking up information, either normally or extra normally, from the sitter and just relaying these facts and what have you back to them. Now, this was actually tested way back by Reverend Drayton Charles Thomas. Would you mind if I read a short excerpt from the book?
- [16:22]
New Thinking Allowed Announcer
Okay.
- [16:24]
Chris Carter
Another explanation proposed was that the medium fishes for information using a combination of guesswork and hints from the reactions of sitters. A less conventional explanation was that the results were due to an unusual degree of telepathic rapport between medium and sitter. Proxy sittings, in which a sitter with no connection to the deceased visits the medium on behalf of the third person, were used to eliminate both of these possibilities. The best known of these proxy sittings are the numerous ones in which the Reverend Drayton Thomas acted as a proxy, usually on behalf of bereaved parents and spouses. One such sitting was arranged by Professor EHART Dodds, a well known critic of the evidence for survival. The sitting was not on behalf of Dodds, but rather for a Mrs. Lewis who wished to contact her deceased father. And so this sitting was not even secondhand, but third hand. Thomas was told only the man's name, hometown and date of death. Regardless, at a sitting, the medium seemed to get in touch with him right away. And the results were considered very impressive. Dodds, the skeptical investigator, was forced to conclude. It appears to me that the hypothesis of fraud, rational influence from disclosed facts, telepathy from the actual sitter and coincidence cannot either singly or in combination account for the results obtained. Only the barest information was supplied to sitter and medium, and that through an indirect channel. Now, after that's what I call the Living Agent ESP hypothesis. I do believe that's been falsified because of the proxy sittings. But the proponents of Living Agent esp, or as they call it, Living Agent Psi, they were not content to just lie down and accept defeat. They extended this hypothesis with all sorts of auxiliary ad hoc assumptions and additions in order to try to explain the very best data. And in doing so, they pushed the idea of telepathy and clairvoyance far beyond what those terms were meant to describe. I describe cases in my book which falsify not only living agent ESP, but also what I call super espresso, which is the ideological outgrowth of living Agent esp. That's the idea that the medium possesses virtually unlimited telepathic and clairvoyant powers, able to read anyone's mind at any time, regardless of what those people are thinking and regardless of whether they're even known to the medium, and can instantly clairvoyantly understand written records, wherever those written records may be, even if they're in locations unknown to the medium. But what I also argued, my book, that even if for the sake of arguments that the medium did possess these vast powers of telepathy and clairvoyance, in other words these vast powers of extrasensory perception, it still would not explain the features of the very best cases. Because in the very best cases of mediumship, we have much more than the presentation and information about the deceased. We have communications which are from the purpose of the deceased, from the perspective of the deceased. We also have aspects of cases in which the sitters are utterly convinced they're speaking and communicating with their departed friend or relative or colleague, even though the medium had never met their departed friend or colleague. In other words, we have lifelike impersonations of someone that the medium never met. We also have some very interesting cases in which the medium displays skills that the departed person acquired in their lives, skills which required the departed years of practice to acquire. And yet the Super Asp people ask us to simply assume that extrasensory perception can allow the medium to instantly and temporarily acquire skills normally requiring years of hard practice to acquire. So, and there's cases that also where the unique and distinctive mental characteristics of the departed has been shown in the messages. So extrasensory perceptions simply cannot explain the best cases, only the very weakest.
- [21:18]
Jeffrey Mishlove
I know you write about the famous case of the chess match between a living grandmaster, Victor Korchnoi, and apparently a deceased chess player who died 30 years or more before the experiment took place.
- [21:36]
Chris Carter
That remarkable story began when Dr. Wolfgang Eisenbeiss, a chess enthusiast, he decided to initiate a chess game between living living in a deceased grandmaster. And so he contacted his friend Robert Rollins. He worked as a musician, but he also functioned as a amateur medium who never accepted a dime for his services. And Eisenbies was able to convince Victor Korchnoi, then ranked third in the world, to participate in such a match. After that he gave a list of deceased grand masters to his friend Robert Rowlands, and he asked them to find somebody who's willing to play a match from the other side. So one night a fellow named Geza, Moroxy, Hungarian fellow, seemed to come through and delivered a message saying that he would be willing to take part in such a game. And so they played their game. It took place over years with Eisenweiss as the intermediary between Korchnoi and Rolands. And partway through the game, Korchnoi was asked about the quality of his opponent's play. And he said, well, his style of play is old fashioned and his opening was weak, but since then his game has been extremely strong. I'm not sure I will win. The game went to 52 moves. Shortly before 52 moves, the communicator calling himself Moroxy resigned. But it would have gone to Moroxy resigned because the game would have been over at the 52nd move. I have the full list of the match right here. All of it's in the book for the chess enthusiasts out there. And these, these moves were sent to Bobby Fischer, arguably one of the, if not the greatest chess player the world has ever known. Fischer wrote back and he said anyone who can go 52 moves with Victor Korchnoin is playing at a grandmaster level.
- [24:02]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Which would certainly suggest that if it were living agent Psy, then the agent would have been Robert Rollins, who had minimal chess skills at all.
- [24:13]
Chris Carter
Well again, what you have here is a display of skills. And no amount of perception, normal, extrasensory, super or otherwise, could allow anyone to instantly acquire skills which require at least a decade of practice in the case of chess masters. So to try to explain this case in terms of extrasensory perception is simply ludicrous. And so instead what the so called skeptics do is they turn to other explanations, mostly having to do with elaborate scenarios of fraud on the part of the medium and incompetence on the part of the researchers. And they almost never even offer a single shred of proof that the medium was a fraudster or that the investigators were fools, incompetent fools.
- [25:09]
Jeffrey Mishlove
No, I agree with you, they don't do that. The best they seem to be able to do is to say we can't absolutely, absolutely rule out fraud. They'll go that far and try and dismiss all the evidence on that basis. The reason is because I suppose in their mind, or in the minds of people who are deniers or scoffers, fraud must be the explanation because they simply can't accept the idea of the afterlife. And I think one reason is many people don't want to be fooled. They want to believe in the afterlife. It's a comforting belief. It accounts for, amongst other things, a sense of justice in the universe. But they're afraid of fooling themselves. So sometimes people become hardcore skeptics for that reason and they tend to then project the idea that those who accept psychic phenomenon and belief in the afterlife are weak minded.
- [26:13]
Chris Carter
Well, I think that the so called skeptics are a mixed and motley crew. They've got slightly different motivations in each case. Sometimes I think it is, as you said, what I personally found, and so has Rupert Sheldrake, is most of these so called skeptics that we deal with are actually militant atheists. Now one of the fundamental pillars of the atheistic worldview is the doctrine of materialism. The idea that all events, that events ultimately have a physical cause and that the mind is therefore produced by the brain. And so when the brain dies, the mind dies. Now any evidence to the contrary presents a direct challenge to materialism and thus threatens the collapse of their entire worldview. And this more than anything else in my opinion, explains the vehemence of their opposition to the evidence that proves materialism, their ideology, false. Oh, as I said before, I think they're a mixed and motley crew. Some people just don't want to be held accountable for their lives, and so they don't want to believe in an afterlife too. That also accounts for the hostility. So there's a number of reasons.
- [27:37]
Jeffrey Mishlove
I recall the Emperor Constantine only converted to Christianity right before his death so that he could commit as many sins as he wished prior to being forgiven.
- [27:51]
Chris Carter
He got himself baptized when he knew he didn't have much time left, but he converted to Christianity, became a Christian years earlier. The reason he didn't get baptized until as late as possible, and that was fairly common in those days, is because once a person, once a Christian person was baptized, from that time on, they were supposed to live an extremely virtuous life. They could be a Christian without being baptized. Unlike today, they could just become a Christian and just leave baptism off, because baptism was sort of like a second step. So Constantine converted to Christianity long before the end of his life. He started work on the Vatican. He made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Church. He did not abolish paganism. He just made Christianity the official religion. He built many shrines, many churches. His mother went on a tour of the Holy Land, and she started building churches and shrines at Christian sites. So, yeah, after Constantine converted, which was right after that battle, before which he had a vision. He introduced Christianity to the Roman Empire as its official religion.
- [29:20]
Jeffrey Mishlove
One of the points, though, that you do make in your book, in the very introduction, as I recall, is when you were a college student at Oxford and just starting to explore the paranormal and encountering, if I remember, a farmhouse that was considered haunted or a structure that was considered haunted, if I remember rightly, you brought up the. By the great physicist Richard Feynman, who said, we must be careful not to fool ourselves because we are the ones who are the most easily fooled. You yourself have made a point of really applying skepticism to your own ideas first and foremost, which I think is a mark of a true skeptic.
- [30:14]
Chris Carter
Thank you, Jeff. Yeah. No, my interest in these matters started when I was a student and I was there for two years. The first year, we lived in a dormitory. And then near the end of the first year, one of my friends in the dormitory, he wanted me to join him and two other graduate students to spend our second year living in a medieval stone farmhouse which was outside of town. It was owned by our college. And I was kind of reluctant because it was much farther from town in college, but he then looked at me and he said, I hear the place is haunted, Chris. And this. These words caught my attention. I didn't know what to think. But I decided to go out there and see the place for myself. It turned out to be a large two story stone house and the college carpenter had his workshop on the property. So I went over to the carpenter and I had a brief chat and then I came out with it. I just said, they tell me the place is haunted. And he said, well, I don't know myself. But the carpenter before me, he swore the place was haunted. And, well, that was enough for me. I decided to move in with my friends and spend our next year there. I did see in here some unusual things. Nothing particularly dramatic, nothing particularly evidential. But those experiences did spark my interest. And when I returned to Canada, I wanted to know if there's any. Had any good research been done on matters such as haunting or seeming communication with the departed? So on a visit to the local library, I found an enormous volume of information. I was shocked and surprised. But particularly impressive to me was the enormous volume of research carefully gathered by the members of the British and American Societies of Psychical Research. Now, these societies were both founded in the 1880s. The British Society was founded in 1882 with Henry Sidgwick, a philosopher at Cambridge, as its first president. Two years later, in 1884, the American Society was founded with William James, the philosopher at Harvard, as its first president. Now, these two societies, the membership of these two societies included some of the most prominent philosophers, scientists, physicians, politicians, lawyers and other scholars on both sides of the Atlantic. And they put in an enormous amount of effort. Research, investigation. And they gathered an enormous quantity of research in their respective libraries and in their journals. And despite the often repeated lie that societies of psychical research never found anything, the truth of the matter is, is that they found an enormous volume of positive evidence. And it was enough to convince almost all of the original members of the reality of survival by the early years of the 20th century, including members who started off as die hard skeptics such as Richard Hodgson and others.
- [33:45]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Did you take seriously or am I misspeaking the thought of Richard Feynman that we have to be careful not to fool ourselves?
- [33:53]
Chris Carter
As I read more and more deeply into the literature, I became more and more convinced that we survived the deaths of our bodies. But then I began to wonder if I were fooling myself because I remembered the famous quote from must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool. So I wondered if I was just, you know, believing what I wanted to believe and ignoring information to the contrary. And so what I did was I was determined to go out and seek any opposing Views which I could possibly find without a lot of effort. I quickly discovered a website which was completely devoted to debunking the belief in an afterlife. And I read it and I was shocked by the ignorance of the author and by his vehemence. He clearly had an emotional stake in what he was saying and the quotes that he supplied from other so called skeptics were equally unimpressive. So that motivated me to send him a letter and we corresponded over the Internet for several weeks. An online debate. And during the course of this debate I gained great insight into the so called skeptical way of thinking about these issues. And that's why I decided that at least one book was needed to address these issues. To address these issues and in particular was reference to the so called skeptical movement.
- [35:34]
Jeffrey Mishlove
One of the skeptical arguments you often hear is that if somebody is predisposed to believe in psychic phenomena or in the afterlife, they can never be trusted because whatever they report will be shaped by their pre existing beliefs.
- [35:53]
Chris Carter
Well, you could take the opposite approach, right? You could say that if somebody is predisposed not to believe in the evidence, you should never believe they're debunking. I mean, the argument cuts both ways. Instead of focusing on what people want or do not want to believe, we should focus on their arguments and the evidence they present. In other words, instead of criticizing them as people, we should criticize if we can, their arguments and their evidence.
- [36:20]
Jeffrey Mishlove
And I gather that what you're suggesting, and I also gather you don't consider yourself experiencer, someone who's been to the afterlife and come back and is reporting about it. You're a science teacher, amongst other things, you're trying to be as objective as you can about it. And you've come to the conclusion that if you weigh the arguments on both sides very carefully, the empiricists who say we have a lot of data pointing towards the existence of the afterlife from as you say, five different directions. I've counted nine different directions, but it doesn't much matter. From many different directions, the evidence is all pointing towards the existence of another realm beyond the physical. A realm that impacts us and is part of who we are.
- [37:19]
Chris Carter
Yes, yes. Well, I'm following in the footsteps of several other philosophers of modern times who've written critically about these issues. There's Kirk Ducasse, he wrote a book on life after death. The evidence for it, highly analytical. I quote Ducasse a lot in my books. There's the philosopher Robert Almeidre, he's written a book called Death and Personal Survival, among others. I quoted him quite a bit. He wrote the foreword to my second or third book. So I'm building on the work of these individuals. Essentially, I guess the approach that I take is that of a philosopher who's very much interested and knowledgeable about science.
- [38:10]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, Chris, this has been a fascinating discussion. I think of you as in the forefront of arguing that we can apply rationalist scientific principles and arrive at a conclusion that many people who purport to be rationalists and scientists think are impossible. So it's a pleasure to have you on New Thinking Allowed and to share your wisdom and insights with the New Thinking Allowed audience. Well, thank you Jeff, and for those of you watching or listening, thank you for being with us because you are the reason that we are here.
- [39:13]
Chris Carter
Book four in the New Thinking Allowed Dialogue series is Charles T. Tart, 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology, now available on Amazon.
- [39:27]
New Thinking Allowed Announcer
New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spiritual the topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cihs.edu. you can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingallowed.org.