Podcast Summary: "Shamanism and Belief with James McClenon"
New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast – May 3, 2025
Host: Emmy Vadnais
Guest: Dr. James McClenon (sociologist, parapsychology researcher, author)

Episode Overview

This rich and wide-ranging conversation explores Dr. James McClenon’s decades of field research with shamanic practitioners across Asia and the US. The discussion traverses the diversity of shamanic practices, the psychological mechanisms and cultural functions behind rituals, anomalous experiences, the intricacies of belief, and the intersection of science, spirituality, and healing. Dr. McClenon shares vivid fieldwork stories—sometimes skeptical, sometimes wondrous—while building a case for his "ritual healing theory" and the evolutionary and social functions of shamanism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of Interest and Research Approach

• Dr. McClenon's shamanic research began through his work in parapsychology, leading him to fieldwork in countries including Japan, Korea, the Philippines, Okinawa, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, China, and the USA ([02:21]).
• He stresses the role of participant observation and note-taking over forming strict hypotheses—amassing a thousand pages of field notes from 1982–1986 ([03:50]).
• The term "shaman" properly refers to practitioners in hunter-gatherer societies; Dr. McClenon uses "shamanic practitioner" for a wider context ([04:40]).

2. Anomalous Experiences as a Common Thread

• Across cultures, individuals drawn to shamanic roles often have a history of anomalous experiences: hearing voices, apparitions, ESP, psychokinesis ([05:26]).
• "Every single practitioner had anomalous experiences. That history of anomalous experiences. So that's what triggered that interest. That seemed to be the connection in my mind." – McClenon ([04:14])
• His own personal experiences with apparent PK (psychokinesis) fueled scientific curiosity, but attempts to "catch" definitive proofs often ran into elusive "trickster effects" ([06:10], [08:30]).

3. Methods and Mechanics of Shamanic Rituals

• Shamanic rituals are varied: psychic surgery in the Philippines (often sleight of hand), trance possession in Thailand, firewalking in Japan and Sri Lanka, and pain-defying acts in Hindu and Buddhist contexts ([10:12], [13:46], [21:22], [27:48]).
• The visible "miracle" may be theater and suggestion. Even when deception is present, the social, psychological, and healing impacts may be real ([12:28], [43:57]).
• "It is not unusual within practice to engage in a certain degree of deception in a lot of cultures." – McClenon ([12:23])

4. Case Studies & Memorable Moments

• Psychic Surgery in the Philippines: Dr. McClenon underwent psychic surgery himself, describing physical sensations and a perceived improvement in mood. But after observing many such rituals, he concluded most are skilled sleight of hand, though participants often feel benefits ([13:52]-[15:27]).
• Pain Denial Feats: In Thailand, a famous woman medium would pierce her cheeks with skewers and walk on hot iron plates, showing no injury. The performance was both comedic and serious, helping induce belief for healing ([21:22]-[26:52]).
• Firewalking: He participated in Buddhist and Hindu firewalks, suffering burns when conditions were harsher in Sri Lanka, but also leading workshops on safe firewalking later. The act is a "gymnastic feat" but can also rely on consistent suggestion and focused mind-states ([27:48]-[35:18]).
• Dr. Lee in Taiwan: A Christian doctor and spontaneous trance painter, Dr. Lee diagnosed and treated patients through artwork and trance communication (including from Buddhist and Christian spirits). Despite impressive anecdotal results, scientific controls failed to confirm clear paranormal effects ([37:32]-[41:32]).

5. The Power of Ritual, Suggestion, and Community

• Many shamanic acts function by capturing attention and focusing collective belief, often triggering placebo and hypnotic effects. Community, not just individual healing, is often formed ([21:22]-[41:32]).
• "The show is the thing, the performance is part of the process." – McClenon ([36:18])
• These effects can be harnessed—sometimes independent of whether the overt "miracle" is genuine. Even where trickery is present, the results can rival or outperform formal therapeutic interventions, especially regarding substance abuse or chronic conditions ([43:57]-[52:00]).

6. Variations Across Cultures and Conditions

• Practices vary widely by culture: psychic surgery (Philippines, Brazil), trance healing (Thailand), ancestor veneration/family ritual (Okinawa, Korea), rootwork (African-American traditions in North Carolina), pain feats (India, Sri Lanka), and others ([52:41]).
• Each context weaves together local religious, social, and psychological needs, adapting the "performance" accordingly ([52:41]-[55:21]).

7. Patterns in Shamanic Biographies and Anomalous Experience

• Across societies, biographies of healers often include childhood anomalous experiences or trauma, sometimes linked to resilience and community recognition ([55:21]-[63:23]).
• Survey research shows those who have one anomalous experience are more likely to have others; high "absorptive" or dissociative personality traits correlate to both anomalous experience and belief ([63:38]-[66:58]).

8. The Ritual Healing Theory and Evolutionary Implications

• Dr. McClenon proposes "ritual healing theory": belief in ritual efficacy, fostered by performance, placebo, and suggestion, confers evolutionary advantages and has shaped human sociality ([26:52], [74:39]-[76:47]).
• Personal anomalous experiences (“experiential source hypothesis”) are the root of deep belief, leading some to become practitioners, further propagating the tradition ([76:47]).

9. Placebo, Nocebo, and the Importance of Positive Engagement

• Rituals harness the placebo (positive expectation) and can also invoke nocebo (negative expectation). Modern medicine, therapy, and shamanic practices all interact via these principles ([76:47]-[78:33]).
• Integration of spiritual and cognitive-behavioral therapy is suggested for maximizing well-being ([77:40]).

10. Skepticism, Trickster Effects, and the Limits of Science

• Miraculous claims often evade scientific proof—the phenomena "hides." Skepticism not only serves as psychological ballast but is common in those reporting genuine anomalous events ([69:58]).
• Scientific communities report lower rates of anomalous experiences, suggesting their mindset inhibits such occurrences ([72:19]).
• "Perhaps human consciousness doesn't really work the way we might think it does. Perhaps it's something that's constrained, you know, and we're constructing this regular consciousness." – McClenon ([69:58])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On anomalous experience as universal among practitioners:
  "Every single practitioner had anomalous experiences. That history of anomalous experiences. So that's what triggered that interest." – McClenon ([04:14])

• On the elusiveness of proof (the trickster effect):
  "When you're looking for psychic phenomena, there's a tendency for it to kind of hide from you." – McClenon ([08:30])

• On the beneficial power of performance—even if trickery is involved:
  "Even things which seem to be completely fraudulent still have benefits." – McClenon ([46:41])

• On the central mechanism of ritual healing:
  "The show is the thing, the performance is part of the process." – McClenon ([36:18])

• On evolutionary and cultural implications:
  "We human beings have shaped ourselves. Those who respond to shamanic treatment have survived, and those who don't had a lesser chance of survival." – McClenon ([26:52])

• On the difference between personal experience and belief:
  "The people who have the experience, it's not a matter of questioning for them. They know it's real... So they know there's life after death. This isn't a scientific issue for them anymore." – McClenon ([36:30])

• On integration of ancient ritual and modern therapy:
  "I would suggest finding some spiritual pathway—and I would advocate meditation and practicing it and then integrating that into some type of therapy program." – McClenon ([77:40])

Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:21] Dr. McClenon’s origin in field shamanism research
• [04:14] Universal biography trait: anomalous experience among shamans
• [08:30] "Trickster effect": why psychic phenomena elude proof
• [13:46] Firsthand account of psychic surgery ritual
• [21:22] Thai female medium’s pain and trance feats
• [27:48] Firewalking rituals in Japan and Sri Lanka
• [36:18] Performance, placebo, and belief in healing
• [41:32] Dr. Lee, art healing, and the ambiguous nature of scientific proof
• [52:41] Universal themes and cultural variation in shamanism
• [63:38] Survey research: anomalous experiences, correlation, and personality
• [74:39] Ritual healing theory: cycles, hypotheses, and testability
• [77:40] Practical advice for integrating these insights into wellbeing

Summary/Conclusions

• Diversity and Unity: Despite immense cultural variation, shamanic roles universally center on anomalous experience, ritual performance, and cultivating belief to harness subconscious, psychological, and social healing processes.
• Psychological and Social Functions: Regardless of the literal truth of miracles, shamanic performances draw upon attention, expectation, community building, and suggestibility to create genuine social and medical benefits—and sometimes, documented extraordinary phenomena.
• Belief Rooted in Experience: Deep belief is shaped not by argument but by anomalous personal experience, often among those with backgrounds of adversity or high emotional absorption.
• Science and Subjectivity: Scientific proof of paranormal claims remains elusive. The "trickster effect" and the role of skepticism keep the borderlands between mundanity and miracle shrouded—yet the lived impact, and the ritual approach to healing, remain powerful, testable, and evolutionarily advantageous.

For Listeners:
If you are interested in learning more or participating in Dr. McClenon's ongoing research on psychokinesis, you are encouraged to reach out via his provided email ([78:41], [79:12]).

This summary aims to convey the breadth and spirit of the conversation, capturing both the ethnographic richness and the theoretical insights as presented by Dr. James McClenon and host Emmy Vadnais.