← New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
The 1973 Pascagoula UFO Abduction Case with Philip Mantle
01:13:56
The 1973 Pascagoula UFO Abduction Case with Philip Mantle Philip Mantle delves into one of the most compelling alien abduction stories in modern history—the 1973 Pascagoula incident. He offers eye-witness testimony, investigatory details,
Loading summary
Transcript42 lines
- [00:00]
Philip Mantle
First thing they heard a little zipping sound and then this blue light came from behind them, went out across the river. It was a, an object, oval shaped. We call it a rugby ball. You probably call it an American football shape. On the left hand side it had two bright lights. It descended, didn't quite touch the ground. It stopped about 18 inches off the ground. Then on the right hand side, this opening appeared.
- [00:30]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Keep watching to learn more.
- [00:32]
Narrator
Book 4 in the New Thinking Allowed dialogue series, Charles T. Tart 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology. Now available on Amazon.
- [00:46]
Announcer
New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cihs.edu. you can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingallowed.org.
- [01:33]
Philip Mantle
Thinking allowed conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove.
- [01:50]
Announcer
Hello and welcome.
- [01:51]
Jeffrey Mishlove
I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Today we are going to look at the 1973 Pascagoula, Mississippi UFO abduction case. My guest is Philip Mantle, who is an international UFO researcher. His books have been published in six different languages around the world. He is the former Director of Investigations for the British UFO Research association and former MUFON Research Representative for England. He is the founder of Flying Disc Press. Among his publications are three books that he wrote on the 1973 Pascagoula, Mississippi case. They include Pascagoula 1973, the hypnosis transcripts and Beyond Reasonable Doubt, the Pascagoula Alien Abduction. His latest book in this series is PAS Witnesses Files and Audio Tapes. Philip is in the UK and now I'll switch over to the Internet video. Well, welcome Philip. It is a real pleasure to be with you today.
- [03:13]
Philip Mantle
The pleasure's all mine, Jeffrey. Thank you.
- [03:16]
Jeffrey Mishlove
You have spent many, many years investigating the Pascagoul 1973. It's probably one of the most important UFO abduction cases in history. And I imagine many of our viewers, particularly those who aren't as old as I am, won't know about it at all because even though it was front page news all over the United States when it first occurred, that was over 50 years ago.
- [03:50]
Philip Mantle
Yes, absolutely. I mean I, I, I started my involvement back in 2018. The, the incident involved two, two guys, Calvin Parker and Charles Hickson. And it was October 11, 1973 in Pascagoula Mississippi. Calvin actually didn't come from that area. He came from Laurel, Mississippi, about 150 miles away. And he was only 18, almost 19. Charles Hickson was 42 and their families had grown up together. So Calvin was friend with Charlie Hickson's son Eddie. And Calvin was getting married in, in November 1973. And his fiance Wynette said, you know, you're working all the hours God sent, I never hardly see you, you know. He had two or three jobs. So his father suggested, why don't you ring Charlie Hipton up over Pascagoula Way. He's a foreman in the shipyard there, maybe he can get you a job. So he did. And Charlie said, yeah, we're setting on I can get you a job. So the idea was that Calvin would live with Charlie Monday to Friday, pay him some board and lodgings, go home on a weekend, and if things worked out, maybe, you know, when they got married, his wife would move out there with him. So October 11, 1973 was Calvin's one and only day working in the shipyard. He bought a brand new car, a Rambler Hornet, and he took Charlie to work that day. Had a good day's work coming on in the evening. Charlie said, do you want to do some fishing tonight, son? Both guys love to go fishing. And of course they were on the river. So he said, yeah. So they had a bite to eat, got the fishing tackle set off, bought some bait on the way. And Charlie, obviously, he knows the area he's navigating. And they go down by the Pascagoula river, which is also known as the Singing River. And it's not an out of the way spot, Jeffrey. It's, you know, it's a bit of a dump in those days, but it certainly wasn't out of the way. They passed another car that was already there and they then passed a no entry sign. And Calvin remarked on that and, but Charlie said, take no notice of it. I come here all the time, you know. So they parked the car up, they went to one spot, but the, the place was infested with, with insects, you know. So they moved to an old pier. There was a little place that had shut down. It still had an old pier sticking out. So they sat on there with their fishing rods out and in the water and first thing they hear the little zipping sound. And then this blue light came from behind them, went out across the river. Calvin's first reaction was, I knew we shouldn't have gone past. Not no entry sign. This is the Police, we're going to spend the night in jail. So they both turn around and of course it wasn't the police. It was a, an object, oval shaped, we call it a rugby ball, you probably call it American football shape. On the left hand side, it had two bright lights. It descended, didn't quite touch the ground. It stopped about 18 inches off the ground. Then on the right hand side, this opening appeared and this really bright dazzling light came out. Both men had to shield out their eyes. And out of this opening floated, I mean literally floated, three humanoid figures. Both Charlie and Calvin described them as being about 5ft, 5ft 4 inches in height. They were bulky. They had a head but no neck. The pointer protrusions out of the side and one out the front. Their arms were a bit long and they had other like pincer appendages or mittens. Their legs were stuck together. They never moved. And their, their skin, if that what it was, they described it as being like elephant skin, you know, gray and wrinkly. Now these creatures came out again. They didn't touch the ground. Two of them got hold of Charlie, one of them got over Calvin. They both said they were, you know, scared to death, but they felt some kind of injection and it kind of relaxed them. Although they couldn't move, the only thing they could move was their eyes. They were taken into this object. Charlie went to the right, Calvin to the left. Calvin later described as being placed on a, a transparent table. At an angle, this ugly creature, as he called it, seemed to step back and this thing came out of the ceiling with no wires or anything like that. It's about the size of a mobile phone, a cell phone, as you would call them. He stopped in front of his face and went around his head and made a clicking noise. And then back to. It went from wherever it came. And then Calvin heard that a noise behind him. And from behind him came another creature, but looks pretty much human. Jeffrey. She was female and the only real difference was her middle fingers were very long. And she opened Calvin's mouth and put her fingers inside and it hurts. And she said he heard in his head, you know, we're not going to hurt you. Don't, don't be scared. And Calvin's lower clothing was removed along with his shoes and his socks. And something was stuck in his foot. Calvin said, and it hurt. And he felt like he was almost being drained of his blood with something replacing it. So they put his clothes back on. He managed to get his composure and movement for a short while and he got hold of this female creature around the head. And then she just pointed to the big guy. It touched him, and he was frozen solid again. And they took him and placed him back outside on the pier. Charlie Hickson said, I wasn't on any table like Calvin. I was just suspended, you know, as literally suspended in midair. And this thing came out of the wall in front of him. This is about the size of a basketball. He looked like a big eye. And it didn't go around his head like Calvin. It went the other way, around him, around him, and then went back once it came. And then this creature got hold of him, took him back outside, put him on the pier. His legs buckled. And he said, calvin was stood there with his hands sticking out like that. And he got up and he shook Calvin. He said, you're all right. You're all right, son. And they both turn around, the thing was zip, and it was gone. So they sat on the pier, absolutely terrified out of their wits. Charlie a bit less than Calvin. Charlie had been in the army and had fought in the Korea conflict in the Korean War. And they decided at that point they weren't going to tell anybody. They'll think we're back. We'll think we're crazy. So they got back to the car. When they got back to the car, Charlie opened the passenger door and all the glass fell out. Remember, this is a brand new Rambler Hornet. Calvin got in. He said, it took me about 20 attempts to start it, but it finally cranked and he got it going. They set off to go home. And Charlie had a change of heart. He said, we got to tell somebody. Got to tell somebody. What if these things come back? Do this to somebody else. What if it's an invasion? So Calvin agreed. But on. On one, he'll say, I will admit to seeing this thing and seeing the creatures come out. But that's all I'm gonna say at this point. I passed out, and I can't remember anything else. So Charlie said, okay. And they pulled into a little convenience store to use a payphone. And first off, they phoned Keesler Air Force Base, which is about 30 miles outside of Pascagoula. A lady answered, and she said, we don't. We don't have anything to do with UFOs these days. Ring your local author. So Calvin was absolutely livid. He said, let's forget it. Let's go. But no, Charlie insisted. They phoned the police. The police put them through to Jackson County Sheriff's department. And they said, right, stay where you are. We'll come get you. So they sent a car out, and of course, the first thing they did was give him a little sobriety test. You know, can you. Can you walk a straight line and that kind of thing? And they were fine. So they escorted them into town to Jackson County's Sheriff's Department, and it was Sheriff Fred diamond and Deputy Glenn Ryder. Now, both guys were interviewed separately. And then they put both of them in a room together. And the deputy went to a desk and fiddled around in the desk and said to him, I'm just going to get some coffee, guys. I'll be back shortly. Unbeknown to Charlie and Calvin, there was a tape recorder now playing in the desk. And about five minutes later, the deputy came back again, fiddled inside, and they had no idea what he was doing, but he took the tape and they played it. And they thought, we'll catch him now. They'll be laughing and joking, you know. But they weren't quite the opposite. I mean, especially Calvin. He was crawling up the walls, Jeffrey. So the sheriff said, look, nothing we can do, guys. You go home. And they said, well, fine, but please don't tell anyone. We don't want this getting out. So they went home. The next morning, they got up and went to work. And as they're pulling in to work, they noticed there was one or two extra cars there. You know, wasn't. They weren't that bothered. They had only been there five minutes when they're summoned to the boss's office and the sheriff is there. And he said, what the hell have you two been doing? The telephones won't stop ringing. I've got journalists parked outside and we can't get rid of them. Can't get any work done. So they told their boss what had happened. The sheriff took them to the hospital, to the Singing River Hospital to have a check. They were fine. And somebody mentioned, what about radiation? Well, the hospital couldn't check for that, but Keesler Air Force Base could. So the sheriff phoned the air base and off they went. And Kelvin told me, he said, they were all set ready for us. They were all in the hazmat suits. And they'll, you know, they tested them and they were fine. Ironically, they then said, well, why are you here, gentlemen? Why don't you tell us what happened last night? Bearing in mind they'd film Kingsler Air Force Base and being given the, you know, the cold shoulder. So they did, and they have no idea. But the story then was out. It went around the world. Jeffrey and you know, Calvin was, was not happy. You know, he was getting married the following month. He thought my, my father in law to be will think I'm nuts. You know, he won't let me marry his daughter. And, and right up until the day he died a couple of years back, he'd no idea how the story got out, but it did. Now, Calvin was severely traumatized by Jeffrey, but Charlie was able to handle it and he would go on TV and speak about it and conferences and so on. And that, in a nutshell, is the Pascagoula story for those.
- [16:15]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, it's a fascinating story and I had a most indirect, tangential relationship to it because at that time I had entered a graduate program, individual interdisciplinary doctoral program in parapsychology, the University of California, Berkeley. I found three professors from different departments who were willing to sponsor me at the time. One of them was James Harder, who was also the research director of the Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization. He was a specialist in hypnotizing people who report UFO contacts. And as soon as he heard the news, I think he flew right away to Pascagoula to meet these fellows.
- [17:09]
Philip Mantle
He did indeed. I mean, both Dr. Harder and the Close Encounters man himself, Dr. J. Allen Hynek, were on site in no time at all. And as you speak, it was April that sent Dr. Harder down there simply because, well, two things really. One, he was available, and two, he was also trained in hypnosis. So he was sponsored by APRO to go down there. And Alan Heineck was on his way to New York to take part in a TV documentary. So they changed his flights and he was down there in no time at all. And Dr. Harder did indeed put Calvin under hypnosis and he tried with, with Charlie Hickson but wasn't successful. And the same with Calvin, you got 11 minutes and he didn't say an awful lot under those 11 minutes. And they listened to the secret tape that was made at the sheriff's department and they held a press conference before they went Jeffrey, saying these guys are the genuine article, you know, and they should be treated with, with respect and not open to ridicule. So Harder and Heineck both, you know, found the, the case compelling enough to, to go on the record in that respect. And what is, what is amazing is APRO were one of the largest UFO groups there's ever been, and they shut down. I think it was in the 70s or the 80s. In the 80s, I think it was run by Carol and Jim Lorenzen. Now they had thousands of files and we found out that the, the files were with a couple down in Nevada and they were well looked after, but nobody could get access to them. I contacted them and sadly, the, the lady in the couple, she died. And again, I, I, I was in correspondence with the gentleman who, who looked after the files. And then out of the blue, he contacted David Marler in Albuquerque. David is the executive director of the National UFO Historical Record Center. He was offered the files. And so the gentleman drove up to see David. They wrote out a legal agreement. He wouldn't even allow anyone else to deliver them, so that David hired him a van and he delivered them in person. And I got an email from David because he knew of my, my work on this case. And he said, have you got these recordings, Philip? And he sent me a little list of some recordings because not only were there paper files, there was audio tapes, you know, 16 millimeter and all kinds of stuff. And these were real historical documents in their own right connected to the Pascagoula case. We have on them Dr. James Harder hosting a press conference, and he's taking questions from the audience. We have Dr. Alan Hynek interviewing Sheriff Fred diamond. And we also have a very poor quality copy of Calvin's Hypnosis. And it runs for about 11 minutes. And it, you know, it took took me a long time, but I, I managed to, you know, transcribe it and really, you know, piece of history as far as this case and ufology is concerned. So Calvin, sadly, had died at this point, he passed away. And I'd worked on a book called beyond reasonable doubt with Dr. Irina Scott, a colleague of mine in Ohio. And I found out I still had all this information. So all this that came from the Afro files via, via David Marla, is all in a new book I, I've written called Pascagoula Uncovered. And it's all in there. You can read every single word of what they said. Obviously, you know, you can't hear the, the, the, the real thing, but the next best thing is to transcribe it. And I, I thought there would be more, to be honest, because if we go back to 1973, Jeffrey, if you want to record things, we didn't have this technology, you'd write it down or you'd have it on a tape. And I, because the case was so big, I assumed to be a lot more papers, correspondence, and we haven't found that yet, but I'm convinced it will be out there somewhere. So, yes, it's a nice connection with Dr. James Harder.
- [22:20]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, apparently you or other investigators also wanted to find out if there were any witnesses who saw what happened.
- [22:32]
Philip Mantle
Yeah, what happened was once I got in touch with Calvin parker, I persuaded calvin to write his own book. He'd never told his story in full before. Not even told his wife, who was waynette. She was the lady he was getting married to all those years back. So we agreed, we wrote out a contract. When the book came out, I was contacted by a gentleman in Greece, of all places. And he's called Stefanos. Stefanos Panagio Takis. And in 1981, so eight years afterwards, Stefanos was in the Greek merchant navy. He was a radio operator, but he was also a UFO researcher. And he used to write for a magazine back home in Greece. And the ship he was on landed in Pascagoula in 1981. And he got a few days shore leave. So his favorite case was the Pascagoula case. He couldn't believe it. So we set off to get an interview with Charlie hickson, which he did. He then went to the police station and said, can you. You know, I'm here, I'm. I'm writing stories to go back home. I mean, the navy. Can you help me with anything? And they say, they said, have you spoken to pastor Segalas? No. So they gave him the pastor's address. And Stefanos just went and knocked on the door. And it was a gentleman by the name of pastor Emmanuel segalis, Whose family were of greek origin. So in Stefanos went, got an interview with him, Pastor Seagalas, on the night of October 11, 1973, along with a. A gentleman by the name of Dom Broadus. Mr. Broadhurst worked for the probation department. And a young church volunteer were en route out of Pascagoula to go to a church sponsored meeting that tried to help people with alcohol problems. The young lady was sat in the back. These two gentlemen are driving away. And she was the first to notice something was approaching. She's looking out of the passenger side. And she alerted these two gentlemen. And it crossed the road right in front of them. And it was oval shaped with two lights on one end, Heading in the general direction of where Charlie and Calvin were fishing. So Stefanos still had a transcript of the interview, which he, you know, he let us have. And sadly, by that time, Mr. Segalis, Mr. Broadhurst, had passed away. But we're thinking, what about this young lady in the back of the car? Who was she? Because we got no name at this point. But we managed to find it in a little newspaper cutting. And she was called Joanne Hallmark. And she did. She wasn't from the area, she'd gone to work there. She was a church volunteer, she worked at the local school. And I found a couple of social media things that she had, but they hadn't been used in years. Jeffrey, you know, and I left it, I thought I couldn't find her. I went back about, I don't know, maybe a year later and looked at these social media accounts and I saw one of them was the name of a church. So I thought, well, I've got nothing to lose. I took that name and I just put it into Google and lo and behold, it came up with a church that was in Maryland and it also had its own website. So I, I clicked on the website, I found two sermons that you could download and the gentlemen who were making the sermons were called Hallmark. And I'm thinking, no, is it her sons or is it, you know, maybe her, her husband? Now the church had an email address, just a general thing, you know, info at church, whatever. So I sent them an email, said I'm looking for this lady. I didn't tell them what I was after, I just said she worked in Pascagoula with Pasta Cigalas etc. And I said, if she's still there, could you pass my email on to her, please? About three or four weeks later the reply came in, there was Joanne Hallmark. So I thought, well, I have to tell her now what, what I'm, you know, about with. I've got an old black and white photograph of her as well. So I sent that and she replied, confirming everything. She gave us a phone number and she sent us an up to date photograph as well. She was rather, you know, pleasantly surprised when we sent her the black and white one. So she was interviewed by my colleague, Dr. Irena Scott. We'd start to work together on this and hey presto, we got a, a new witness to these events. We know there was one or two at the time because they appeared on, on the local news media. But this lady had never spoken to anyone ever before and it kind of surprised us. But with hindsight, probably it shouldn't. But we were off and running as far as new witnesses were concerned. And it didn't stop there, Jeffrey. But you were right, that's what we were looking for.
- [28:11]
Jeffrey Mishlove
I understand, of course, there was an adverse witness as well. Somebody who was working on the bridge nearby that crossed the river and supposedly had a view of everything and said he didn't see anything.
- [28:26]
Philip Mantle
That's right. I mean there were two bridges Like I was saying, this place where they were fishing wasn't out of the way. It was just a bit of a dump, you know, it's not now. It's all clean and tidy. So you had Charlie and Calvin on the river. There was a bridge to the left and a bridge to the right. One was for the railway, one for cars. There was houses and commercial properties behind them. And on the opposite side of the river course was the ship building. And the, the bridge that let the cars over was a toll bridge. So you had to pay a toll. And that was manned 24 hours a day. And the toll bridge gentleman who was on, on duty that night went in the local newspaper and he said, you know, I never saw anything, you know, blah, blah, blah. But a few years later, a UFO researcher managed to get his address and wrote to him. And he wasn't as dismissive as he was in the newspaper. He was saying, well, there wasn't much happening at that time. And I, you know, so I was busy doing something else, basically, you know, just keeping myself occupied. So it wasn't as cut and dried as it seemed. But the newspaper said no one on the bridge saw anything that night. What they should have said was, no one, to our knowledge, saw anything that night. Because we were contacted by a gentleman by the name of Mr. Charles Rusty Anderson. And he said, I was driving over the bridge that night and I saw it. Philip. He said, my wife and I have been out for the evening. He said, as soon as I got up to the bridge, I could see these lights, the blue lights, and I drove across the bridge. And he said, the lights were down below me. So you're not talking about something high in the sky. You've got to bend your neck to look at it. He said, I thought, whatever this is, it's gonna crash. It's so low. And again, where, where Mr. Anderson was looking, he's roughly in the place where Charlie and Calvin were fishing. And he said, I went home. He says, the following day I went down to my aunts who lived down by the river. And he said, before I could say anything, she said, you'll never guess what I saw last night. So Mr. Anderson was on the bridge that night in his car and did see these blue things. And what. This is a little curious thing as well, Jeffrey. We made a documentary, and Mr. Anderson was one of those interviewed for it, and he has a Facebook page, and he just put a little notice on it saying, albert being interviewed, you know, about the ufo. And there was a few comments, and there was one from a lady who said, I saw that thing that night. So I contacted her. She was called Pamela, Pamela Rayleigh Eaves. And she said, I lived the other way about a mile down, down the other side of the river. And she said, I was putting my children to bed and I went to close the curtains. She said, our house looks out over the river and I could see this blue thing. So. But the. The most. The interesting part is that she was actually the cousin of Mr. Anderson. And neither of them knew of each other's sighting. So that was very curious. So things started to move it as far as witnesses were concerned. Calvin was interviewed by a local journalist called Karen Nelson, and she wrote a story about. But she also filmed the interview as well. So when she put her article online, there was also a little mini video you could watch as well, you know, about eight minutes long. Somebody took that Jeffrey, and put it on YouTube. And I was reading some of the comments underneath it, and there was one comment said, my mum and dad were on the opposite side of the river that night and they too saw the ufo. So I found this person and I said, could we speak to your mum and dad? She said, I'll ask. She came back, said, yes, here's their telephone number and it's Mr. And Mrs. Maria and Jerry Blair. So I phoned the Blairs, spoke to both Maria and Jeffrey. Maria was the spokesperson. Jeffrey was a quiet guy. And she said, my husband worked offshore. The. The company he worked for used to service the oil rigs out in the Gulf. And he went down to the river to get a boat to take him out to work, but his boss hadn't turned up. It was late. She said, so we're sat in the car just waiting for him. And she said, all of a sudden we see this blue thing coming down the river and it, again, not up in the sky, you know, low level. It stopped opposite them. She said it seemed to be either looking for something or didn't know where it was. Now, she knew the area. She knew there's no airstrip there or any helicopters or anything. And it was about this point they decided to get out of the car, walk down this little pier to the boat. The boat was there, just no boss, and put her husband's belongings on it as they did. I mean, it's dark, but the moon is shining. She said there was this almighty splash in the water next to her. And these are her words, Jeffrey, she's out of the water came this gray man. And it stood right up to her face, nose to nose and then went back in the water and was gone. She run like hell down this pier, threw her husband's stuff on it. And she said this was about 9 o' clock at night. She then turned around, ran back down, got to the car. It was now midnight. It's not a three hour run back to the car, you know. So she says. The next day we see Charlie and Calvin's story on the news. She didn't say anything. She went while her husband came home a few days later. He said, don't tell anybody. Not. Not a sausage. So we had another couple of witnesses here. I passed them on to Dr. Scott, who kept in touch and interviewed them more. In 2019, the town, one of the. One of the charities in the town of Pascagoula raised some money to put a historical marker near the site. And it was officially unveiled by the mayor. And Charlie was sorry Calvin was there. And Eddie Hickson and Maria and Jerry Blair turned up and they told the local news about seeing the blue light. But they didn't say anything else. They met Calvin and his wife Waynette became friends with them. And then Jerry took ill, and I mean seriously ill. And it was in the hospital. He was going to have a little operation the following day. And he said to his wife, ring Mr. Mantle now. Ring him on your cell phone. But she did. He says, Mr. Mantle, I lied, I apologize. I saw everything my wife saw. Now, Maria filmed this as well on her cell phone. And even though he was ill, she was as mad as hell. He survived the operation, but it was only a stop gap, you know, he wasn't gonna make it any turned around to Maria and said, we too were abducted that night because Maria had talked about seeing something out of her peripheral vision. And Cherry went on to tell her that these creatures were there. Two of them had got hold of him. She wasn't looking out of a peripheral vision. She actually has her eyes almost closed. That's why she could only see little bits and pieces. But when Jerry started telling her what had happened, they all fell into place. And like I said, even though he was terminally ill, she was as mad as hell with him. And bit by bit, he told her more and more and more until he passed away. And so we thought, wow, Calvin felt vindicated, you know. Now we move on in time. And Maria Blair knew that Calvin had undergone hypnosis in the past. She asked about hypnosis, which we declined to begin with. Then she came back and we said, okay, we'll see what we can do. I found A professional hypnotherapist in the area, a lady by the name of Crystal. Crystal Slaughter. Crystal said, I'll even go to the client's house if it's. If it's easier for them. We didn't tell her what we wanted, you know, we just said, do you do regressive hypnosis? Yeah. So we organized it to take place at Calvin's house. She turned up. I had it filmed as well. We just gave the hypnotherapist a date, a time and a location. And she put Maria under hypnosis. Quite a long story short, Jeffrey, Maria said that these creatures were after her eggs. You know, that's what they were interested in. And they wanted to make creatures that could live amongst us and not be recognized. And what she then went on to say afterwards, in her opinion, was that these, they were the target that night, her and Jerry, not Charlie and Calvin, because they were supposed to be at that location at that time, whereas Charlie and Calvin had only decided to go fishing on their way home from work. They were kind of like collateral damage, so to speak. You know, so. And we were amazed at all this. Absolutely amazed. Now, when we made the documentary, Maria was in between moving home, and we just couldn't quite get hold of her. So she didn't appear in it, although another one we did. She did, but. So there was a lady in the area called Chelsea Norton Prince. Chelsea runs the Ocean Springs Historical Society. As an interest in the case, they have a Facebook page. She'd met Calvin and bought a book off him. So I asked Chelsea. I tried to get over the older the cameraman again that we'd use, but it was just too busy. I said, have you got a. An iPhone? She says, yeah. I said, well, will you film an interview with Maria for us? Because we don't actually have. We've got a hypnosis film, but not her standing there telling the story. So she agreed. I sent her some questions, the set a day, and she started filming. Now, one of the things I. I asked Chelsea to ask Maria was, when did you first meet Calvin Parker? And I just wanted Maria to confirm the first time she met him is when they had the official. Official unveiling of the historical market, because I knew I just wanted that confirming. And in her Mississippi or Southern accent, she said, I first seen Calvin when he got abducted. And she went on to say, I could see what was happening on the other side of the river, not just the blue light. But she said, I thought it was men, you know, I thought it Was men something to do with. I said I didn't know anything about UFOs or aliens or anything like that. So once we'd viewed this iPhone film, I sent Maria a message and I said I just wanted to confirm if. That. If I wasn't. If this was accurate. And she said, oh, yes, yeah, yeah, that's when she. She saw it. And again, you know, didn't really know what to make of it.
- [41:00]
Jeffrey Mishlove
In other words, she witnessed it from the other side of the river.
- [41:05]
Philip Mantle
Yeah, yeah. Because what is interesting, just to give you an idea, Jeffrey, a few weeks after Maria's hypnosis, we put Calvin under hypnosis with the same lady, same cameraman. Now, the lady knew of the subject matter. Of course, we couldn't hide that. So I gave her a few questions to ask Calvin. And I said, the first question I want you to ask him is as he sat there with his. His rod in the water, can he just describe the scene in front of me, please? So she asked the question. Calvin said, yeah, there's a boat going along. Even read the. The name on the side of the boat. You know, the company name there. There's this bridge, there's another bridge. You know, there's the shipyard. And right at the end, Jeffrey, he just says, oh, and there's two figures on the other side of the river. And if you don't listen to it carefully, you missed that. It's kind of a little throwaway comment he makes. And I asked the question, is that Maria and Jerry Blair? I don't know. We'll never know. Or is it someone else? I. I don't know, but that's what he said. So, yes, Maria claims to have been witness to what was happened to both.
- [42:25]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Of those gentlemen prior to her actual abduction.
- [42:31]
Philip Mantle
Yes, about the same time. Because again, she still wanted to in emphasize that she still believed they were the target that night and Charlie and Calvin weren't. They just happened to come along at the. At the wrong time. That's just an opinion, Jeffrey. It's nothing else. But Maria has also gone on the record and said, I. I've had contact with them since, and I've. I've had another sighting of the. Of the. The object some years later in another town near nearby where she. Where she lives while she was out driving with a granddaughter one evening. And she's asked. She's queried about going under hypnosis again, which we haven't. We haven't sort of talked about it, but that might happen in the future.
- [43:20]
Jeffrey Mishlove
We don't know well, it seems to me that her case is of particular interest because this sense of certainty that she had, that they were waiting for her, as if they already knew who she was, as if maybe she'd had some prior experiences, although unconscious.
- [43:42]
Philip Mantle
Yeah, I mean, you're spot on there, Jeffrey. Because she believed that what her husband Jerry told her, although he didn't, you know, emphasize it, was that things had happened before and he was just trying to protect her. You know, that's why he didn't tell her anything. I mean, they had two daughters, and it was their daughter who made that comment on YouTube. Both daughters knew about the UFO sighting, the blue thing, but nothing else. So they haven't even told their daughters, both of who were, you know, adults now, of course. And so she suspects that things may have happened previously, but Jerry didn't tell her in order to try and protect her. He only told us so much when he was about to die, and it's like a deathbed confession, Jeffrey, although it took several weeks or months before he passed away.
- [44:36]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, did they provide details regarding what happened during the abduction?
- [44:43]
Philip Mantle
A little bit. You know, a little bit. Because Maria says. When we first spoke to Maria and when Dr. Scott spoke to her, she was very emotional, and she kept talking. She said to me, I often wondered, Philip, if something similar didn't happen to us. And I said, why do you say that? I can see these things, but I can't quite make it out. So what Jerry told her is that these two creatures have got a hold of him, and one had got hold of her. That's the one that came up out of the water, and he called them the. The gray humanoids. She called it the gray man. And Jerry hinted that one of them was in control because he kept saying, I've got my eye on him. They literally pointed like that. I've got my eye on him, you know? And she said she could see the. The. The. The. The edge of the ship, the ufo, whatever you want to call it, because she was scared stiff, and she had her eyes almost close, but she said, out of the corner of my eye, I could see this metal thing that was there. The two creatures had gone out of. Of. Of. Of her husband. And when she was under hypnosis, a lot of what she said was she was just wondering where the hell her husband was. You know, she was very emotional. Again, under hypnosis, he's not here. Where's Jerry? Where's my husband? And when we into. When. When Chelsea interviewed her, she said, they can just put you to Sleep, just like that, you know, it's boom, and you're out, and you. You don't remember any of it. And she did. She emphasized that several times. So again, I, I put the whole transcript of the interview in, in the new book Pascal or Uncovered, so people can read it for themselves and make their own judgment. But, you know, Maria's not looked for money or asked for any money or anything like that. Had her daughter not put that comment on YouTube. We probably never have known about it. Jeffrey. You know, we got other witnesses in and around the area, but nothing to that extent. And there's even more witnesses we've interviewed in the surrounding area as well.
- [47:05]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, Calvin, as you mentioned earlier, reported that there was a female, apparently human, or more human than the other creatures, who told him, don't be afraid. We're not going to hurt you. Did she report encountering this female?
- [47:27]
Philip Mantle
Not at all. No. The. The female is. Is unique to Calvin's testimony. And what was even fascinating is Calvin went on to tell us he had another encounter in 1993. This time he went out on a little boat on his own during the day. He said, I was only going for a couple of hours. He told his wife where he's going, parked the car up. Off he goes. He said, I had a bottle of water and a sandwich, and he said, I'm fishing away. He looks up, he says, there's a cloud there. He looks up, he's not a cloud because it opened up. And the next thing he knew, it was the early hours of the morning. He's covered in this black goo. He's got some fish. He's at his sandwich. Can't remember any of this. Goes back to his car. There's even a note under his cow, a windscreen wiper from his wife. Been out looking for him. Where the hell are you? Because he didn't have a cell phone, you know. So he goes back home and he says, oh, I had engine trouble, you know, didn't tell her anything. Now, Calvin had a friend who had a little bit of knowledge about the UFO topic. And his friend said, there's a guy called Bud Hopkins who specializes in this kind of thing. Is that a conference in Florida? So they literally jumped in the car, drove, I think he said, it's like 13 hours to Florida. The conference was at a hotel. Calvin wouldn't go in. So his friend went in, found Bud Hopkins. Bud says, here's my room key time. I'll meet him there. Which he did. So Calvin tells him the story, but knew who he was once, you know, once he met him. And they agreed to undergo hypnosis there and then. And we managed to obtain a copy of the recording that was made, a cassette. And on that recording you have Calvin detailing what happened in 1993, what happened in 1973 and two other things that happened when he was a young boy. All four of these encounters featured this female. In 1993, Calvin said, I was up again in this thing on this bed. The ugly thing is there, this woman's there and she's telling him things. He got up and she said there was this kind of mirror, although it wasn't a mirror, it was something reflective. And he calls this the curse. He says she showed me things about mankind, the past, the present and the future. And the future wasn't, wasn't rulesy, it was death and destruction and war and famine worldwide. That's why he called it a curse. And he said all these little pieces of like lightning thing, little sparking objects flew around this room. And he's having a duck out of the way. Calvin said, I've had enough of this. And he got all of this creature and he's bashing her head against the wall. And he said, if there's a door there, we're both going out of it. But again the big guy touched him, it was frozen solid and that was the end of it. But even in the two little things he talks about as when a young boy, not in any great detail, it was this female. And he said she, he said, I'm sure she had some kind of mask. And I said describer. He says, well all I can say is if you saw her in a bar, you buy her a drink, you know, she's pretty, she was attractive, you know, to this skin tight suit on if you like. But he said, I'm sure there was, what I was seeing was a mask, you know, so she was the common denominator. None of the others saw this lady, but Calvin did. And after Calvin passed away, I was doing a, a search online and I found a website that had been set up in the 90s by a local journalist, hadn't been used in a long time. It had a couple of interviews embedded into it. The couple of police officers had seen something in the area and they presto, there was a little video of Kelvin, you know, in the early 90s. He got his head had gone a little bit, he put a bit of weight on, but it was certainly Calvin. And he tells about what happened in 1973. And then he stops, turns to the camera and tells about another encounter in 1992 in Baldwin, Louisiana. Now, nobody had ever heard of this at all. He never mentioned it to me. I became good friends with Calvin. His wife didn't know, nobody had ever heard about it. I found a conference proceedings from about the same time where Calvin is, is writes a piece. In it, he's supposedly going to be a speaker at this conference and he's telling everyone, I'm gonna tell you the big story. I'm going to reveal everything. Of course, he never appeared at the conference. He also told me that about that time as well, he was earning a decent salary and him and Charlie wanted to do their own TV show on cable and, and they, you know, they filmed bits for it, but it never, it never got off the ground, Jeffrey. So I, I think that little film was one of those that if they filmed for this TV show, that never happened. So again, I transcribed all of this. It's all in the new book Pascagoula Uncovered. You can read about it yourself and make of it what you will.
- [53:39]
Jeffrey Mishlove
I did see Calvin speak at a conference in the desert in California.
- [53:45]
Philip Mantle
What year was that? Jeffrey?
- [53:47]
Jeffrey Mishlove
This was about two or three years ago.
- [53:49]
Philip Mantle
Yeah, after his book came out, he did a few conference as a handful and he liked it because people took him serious, they didn't make fun of him and he loved talking. You know, Calvin had got that southern hospitality, like speaking of people and what have you. He was due to come to England, but then he took ill and we didn't realize at the time it was anything serious, but he wasn't able to travel. And I think Calvin knew at that point before they had been confirmed by the doctors that this was not going to be a good outcome. He'd been ill before, he'd had open out surgery and other things, but this was different. So he wrote a piece and he said, he sent it to me and he says, do not publish this until I die. I said, okay. So I, I put it in a folder and left it there. Of course, when he passed away, I read it and this is Calvin's take on what happened to him and, and what have you that his last words, so to speak. And again they're featured in full in, in the new book. And it's rather moving, you know, he blamed, he blamed Charlie for letting the story out in the first place. But I don't, I think he was wrong because another gentleman contacted us, is called Mr. Van Payne. Mr. Payne said, I think I was the first person to interview Charlie and Calvin. I'M a journalist. So he said, I got a tip off from the sheriff's office about what was happening. He said, by the time I got there, they'd gone. So he said, I went to the sheriff's office the next morning, and they weren't there. They were at the hospital. So he said, I went to the hospital and they'd gone. And I was told they'd gone to Keesler Air Force Base. So he drove to Keesler Air Force Base, waited outside, and he actually got Charlie and Calvin as they came out. And they initially said no, but then they agreed to be interviewed on camera so long as their faces weren't to the. To the lens. So they stood with their back to the camera, this gentleman in between them, he's facing the camera, and the microphone was going backwards and forwards. And that's the first. First television interview anyway. But the point is he got a tip off directly from the sheriff's department. It wasn't from Charlie. So I think Calvin was a bit. Bit wrong in that respect. And not only that, Mr. Van Paen still had the film and he provided us with a copy. But what is interesting as well, this was originally 16 millimeter film, Jeffrey, not video. So he couldn't. He couldn't record over it. He then went on to say, well, I interviewed this other guy, and this was a gentleman at the local civil Defense force. He was their meteorological officer. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but he actually got something on radar that night. So Mr. Van Payne goes into his office with all the gear around it and interviews him there. And we have that. And he said, and there's another one. He said there was a local taxi driver claimed to have seen a UFO land and his creature come out. He just forgot that his friend was parked behind him. And his friend says he didn't see anything. There was nothing there. It was a hoax. So we have that. So we have all these three interviews on this one piece of film, and we have a, you know, a digital copy of it. It's a piece of, again, ufological history, like this stuff we talked about with. With Harder and Heineck from Apro. And again, I transcribed all that. I've got pictures from it all in the new book.
- [57:50]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, one of the things that you and I discussed a little earlier is that the description of the creatures with the pointy protrusions from where ears might be and where the nose might be, and no neck, and if I recall correctly, no mouth. This is very unusual in all of the hundreds of UFO sightings and non human intelligence descriptions that we have in the literature, it seems relatively unique.
- [58:27]
Philip Mantle
It is absolutely unique. And I first read about the case back in the 90s, 1980s in a magazine and the thing that stuck in my mind was these creatures, the shape of it. And of course we didn't have this technology in those days. Searching for things is much, much easier today. And one of the things we have done is try to see if we can find a case that has any similar creatures. And we can't. You know, to the bit we're never saying that there isn't any. What we say is, to the best of our knowledge there isn't. And if anyone knows differently, please get in touch. We'd love to know, but not even in the science fiction literature at the time. I mean, on TV in America was probably the Outer Limits, you know, here we had Doctor who and none of the creatures looked anything like they were all men in suits, pretty much most of the monsters, you know, so there was nothing that we could say, well, this is similar or that's similar. Well, but of course a couple of years later you have Travis Walton's encounter in Snowflake, Arizona. And some of the creatures, Esau, were pretty much looking like human, male and females, you know, but they had a headgear on transparent headgear. That, that was the only difference. So, you know, for me, the, the, this, this case with all the information and we've, I mean we've interviewed over 50 witnesses, Jeffrey, or I should say doctor, doctor, Dr. Scott has, and historical recordings because both Charlie and Calvin describe these creatures as robotic. That wasn't something that came out years later. It was right from the very beginning because we have those audio tapes with Harder and Heineck and they mentioned these guys said they, they were robotic. So it was right from day one. And the reason for that is because they never made a noise. They couldn't hear them breathing, you know, no eyes, no mouth, they moved in a mechanical manner. As far as they were concerned. It is only their opinions, nothing more. But in the 1992 encounter in Louisiana, which is it still, it still puzzles me why Calvin never mentioned it. He has them as like workers and the woman is in charge. He meets them again and the reason they are here is to try and help mankind because their race of beings, wherever they come from, have already gone through planetary catastrophe. They've made all the mistakes so they can help us not make them, so to speak. And that's what Calvin's opinion Was, you know, in, in his final words, which is not too dissimilar to what Charlie believed. Charlie never saw, never had another encounter. He had, he became like a contactee. You know, he got messages from the creatures and he believed something big was going to happen worldwide and he'd be a part of it. He did have another sighting but no more encounters of that respect. So he, you know, there weren't too different in that respect, but those were Calvin's final words. And, and this creature was said they were going to try and help mankind.
- [61:57]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Now what about the, the woman? Do you know of other sightings that involve a human like female?
- [62:05]
Philip Mantle
Like I said, this Travis Walton, that's a couple of years later. There was male and female. There's a very famous incident here in the uk but that as a male, it was a police officer called Alan Godfrey. And it's late 1980. He's on patrol in his, his police car. He's been on night patrol. It's the early hours of the morning, is about to finish. He lived in a small town called Todmorden. Means nothing to anybody in America, but I, I know where it is. And there have been reports of some cows wandering around the streets at night and he'd been looking for them. He'd seen a, an officer on foot patrol, had a chat with him. So I'm gonna have one last look for these cows and that's me finished. So he drives up through the little road through the town, puts his indicator on to turn off to go back to the police station when he sees some lights up up ahead. So he carries on, he doesn't turn off and he said, when I get there, Philip, there's this object blocking the road. It's like an old fashioned children's top. It's dark colored, it's got a bank of panels across the top and the bottom part is spinning. So he stops the patrol car, tries to radio back to the, to the station. He can't get through so takes his clipboard out and starts to draw it. Bear in mind the patrol car is stationary at this point. This is the next thing I remember. I'm several hundred yards down the road driving the patrol car. No recollection of starting it up again. He turned around and this thing had gone. He noticed on the road it was dry and it had been raining through the night. It was a dry patch on the road. When he got back to the station he was late and he had a burn mark on the instep of his left foot and his police Boot was split. So he reported it. His name, his name is Alan Godfrey, police constable. The next day they asked him to write a formal report, which he did. Cutting a long story short, six or seven months later he was, he was teamed up with some UFO investigators. They hired two psychiatrists to put Alan under hypnosis. And under that hypnosis he sees two types of creatures. One it canary repels from. So they've got a, they've got a head like the old fashioned light bulbs. And then there's a man, a man in a white robe, he's got a little skull cap on, he's got a little white beard and he's even called. It calls him Joseph. And there's even a black dog. So there's no woman. But there is a, a man, you know, it looks just like a man in a white robe. And Alan to this very day, you know, he said, Philip, if, if I ever just a brick I could have thrown it at that thing and it would have gone clunk, you know. And I've seen the hypnosis tape, you know, and it is, it is fascinating. So there are other accounts where human like beings have been reported, but I don't recollect any from before Calvin. There may be.
- [65:28]
Jeffrey Mishlove
It turns out I've done some interviews recently that do involve a lady. One very well known case in the United States with a fellow named Chris Bledsoe who talks about regular contacts with a female being who appears in orbs. And there's another case, it's written about in a book called the Mojave Incident in which a couple were driving down the highway in the desert in Nevada and were abducted. And a very frightening case. And again there was a woman aboard who said don't worry, we're not going to hurt you. But they were scared out of their minds.
- [66:11]
Philip Mantle
Yeah, it's not uncommon, but going back to 1973, I don't think you could have laid your hands on it anywhere. You wouldn't have seen it on TV perhaps or in the science fiction literature. And of course Calvin was not interested any of these anyway. It was working three jobs just to try and get married. That's one of the reasons why Calvin didn't want the story to get out. They thought they'll never let me get married. You know, they'll think we're nuts. And there was a big discussion at the time, the Archd bunker of course in those days with Philip class and Philip tried to get involved in the case and both guys right from day one said we'll have a polygraph. No problem. Now, the polygraph was arranged, but when it was arranged, Calvin was taken ill. He'd gone back home. He was in hospital. But Charlie said, I'm here. So he had the polygraph and he passed it and it was released into the. Into the news media. Philip Class found it odd that the polygraph guy wasn't a local man. He came from New Orleans, which was, I don't know, 60, 70 miles away. What we found was. Oh, sorry. Class also claimed that this gentleman wasn't qualified. Well, what I found was that the two local companies that did polygraphs were asked if they'd do it. One says, I am not getting involved with any of this UFO nonsense. No, thank you. The other one said, I'd happy to do it, but we only give polygraphs to people of being accused of a crime. These gentlemen haven't been accused of anything. Now, when the incident took off, when it. When it, you know, when it happened, they were working in the shipyard. The shipyard owner said, you can use. If you need him, you can use my attorney. He's there if you need him. Just so happened, this attorney new a company in New Orleans that did polygraphs, amongst other things. They're called the Pendleton Detective Agency. And he phoned them up and they'd even do it for free. So they sent a gentleman called Scott Glasgow who was qualified. He just hadn't received the paperwork. But he was more than qualified. Not only that, Scott Glasgow was extremely skeptical. And he ran the test three times. And every time, Charlie passed it. And it irritated him to release that, but he'd no choice. Now, I also found that the Pendleton Detective Agency was still in business. So I wrote to them, not email, the old fashioned way. And they responded and they confirmed that this, that the other, you know. So Philip Class never even bothered contacting them. And I found Philip Class's file. He has a big file on this case. And all he's trying to do, Jeffrey, is throw mud at it, not trying to research it. And you know as well as I do, if you throw enough mod, some of it sometimes sticks. And he couldn't find anything wrong with it. You know, as simple as that. I'll give you one little story that Calvin told me. It's the one and only time he met Philip Class. Charlie was doing a TV show and he asked Calvin if they could meet. Not for him to go on it, just meet up. So Calvin said, okay. And Charlie told him, there's a scientist going on this show with him and it had been Arranged by a local journalist. So when Calvin gets there, the TV show has been canceled and he's no idea what's going on. And so we asked Charlie. So what's the matter? He said, well, this scientist won't go on with me. So the journalist, trying to calm things down, takes all, all three of them over the road for some dinner. She thinks if I can buy him a dinner account, we still, we can still go back and do this. You know, Calvin's oblivious. And so the. He says to this guy, why, why won't you go on TV with, with Charlie? This is because he's lying. So Calvin was a tough old tough guy. He, like, he didn't mind a fight. Now Calvin didn't mind if he didn't believe him, Jeffrey, but if you accuse him of lying, you were in trouble. So Calvin told Philip class in no uncertain terms. I won't say the exact words, but if you call me or my friend a liar again, I'll punch your lights out. Basically, you know. And Calvin said, we went home that night with no dinner, you know, but he said, I don't mind if he said, I can understand why people don't believe me, Philip, but calling me a liar is a different thing than saying I don't believe you, you know. And so that was the one and only time he met Philip Class. And so again, I found that Philip had interviewed Scott Glasgow. And I have a transcript of it in from his own files. All that again is in the new book. It tells you, it ties the loose ends up, so to speak.
- [71:36]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, Philip Mantle, this has been a fascinating excursion into one of the most important cases in UFO history. You've done a very commendable job over many years tracking down so many witnesses, so many documents, so many recordings. I can only commend you for the work that you have done. And thank you so much for spending time with me.
- [72:04]
Philip Mantle
Oh, thank you. My pleasure. Thank you.
- [72:06]
Jeffrey Mishlove
And for those of you watching or listening, thank you for being with us because you are the reason that we are here.
- [72:38]
Narrator
Book four in the new Thinking Allowed dialogue series is Charles T. Tart 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology. Now available on Amazon.
- [72:52]
Announcer
New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit, the topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website at cihs. You can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingallowed.org.
- [73:44]
Philip Mantle
Sam.