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New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
The Business of Spirituality with Michelle Freed
01:29:15
The Business of Spirituality with Michelle Freed Michelle Freed is a seasoned publicist, media strategist, and founder of Leave it to Michelle Media, where she helps authors, researchers, and visionaries bring their work to wider audiences.
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- [00:00]
Michelle Freed
And it's not about their book, it's not about their class, it's about them. And so what I want to do is promote them that way. Anything they do, this leaves room to evolve.
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Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Keep watching to learn more and don't forget to subscribe.
- [00:19]
Michelle Freed
Book 4 in the New Thinking Allowed dialogue series is Charles T. Tart, 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology. Now available on Amazon.
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Narrator/Announcer
New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website at CIA. You can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies go to newthinkingallowed.org.
- [01:19]
Michelle Freed
Thinking allowed conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove.
- [01:35]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Hi.
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Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove
You are watching New Thinking allowed produced by Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove and I'm a guest host today. I'm Dr. Debra Lynn Katz and I am thrilled to be bringing you an interview with one of my longest time and best friends, Michelle Freed. Michelle has been a long time radio show producer. She started off being a producer for Art Bell's show after he left coast to Coast AM and went on his own. And then she worked with also his replacement Heather Wade for a while and then she has gone on to work as a radio show producer for Midnight in the Desert and also she is currently the producer for none other than Jimmy Church. She has been a long time publicist as well. She's one of the leading publicists in the field of consciousness, parapsychology, psychic development. And that's really why I brought her on. Although additionally she is a hypnotherapist, a practicing remote viewer and remote viewer instructor. And she also has so many other things to offer. Way too long of a list to mention. But she is someone who can really speak to the topic of the business of spirituality and we're going to take a really deep dive into that topic and everything that has to do with starting a business. The ins and outs, the highs and lows, the joys and sorrows, and in particular the ethics of this topic and public perception of it. We have so much to cover. I want to thank you so much for being here with us today. Let's get started.
- [03:36]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Hi Michelle, I'm so thrilled to have you here today.
- [03:40]
Michelle Freed
I am so glad to be here.
- [03:42]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Yeah, I have been wanting to interview you for a really long time And I wanted to find someone who I knew would have so much input into the subject of the business of spirituality. I thought you would be perfect because you are now a highly established radio show producer and also publicist. So we're going to get into all of that. But let's start off with how did you first get into these topics overall? Metaphysical topics, parapsychology, remote viewing. And then you can share how you got into your professional line of work.
- [04:25]
Michelle Freed
Okay. Yeah. So I have to really give you credit for it, because I don't know if a lot of people know that we grew up together. In 2000, I think it was 2011, I took my kids over the summer on a road trip, and we came to visit you. And I was at a transition in my life. And you at some point said, why don't you take my class? And I thought, well, you know, you have to be born with it or you have to be special. And you're like, no, everyone can do it. And you said, especially you're intuitive, so you. You'd probably be good. And so I felt, what do I have to lose? I took the class, and I knew I was in good hands. Of course, I took the class, and I was trying to explain things away when they would happen, but it got to a point where you just couldn't explain things anymore. And I just had to kind of give in to the fact that something's going on that I can't explain. And through that class, you did introduce everybody to remote viewing. That was in the very early days when we started doing that. But one really important thing is that I live in Chicago, and I knew that the people in Chicago generally aren't that open to these ideas. And so I had to adjust my life in a way where I could balance having some of this with where I live so that I can make a living. And so I went to hypnosis school, and I found that that was a really good balance. My background is in marketing. And so when I learned hypnosis, I was very drawn to what I called hypnomarketing. I wanted to understand how the mind works and how I can kind of blend or make a bridge between hypnosis and marketing. And what was really cool is when I speak to clients, I started a business. I'll tell that in a minute. But when I was speaking to clients, I learned that they would come to me and say, well, I want to make a website, but I know that blue is a corporate color, and that's attractive to people. But learning what I learned in this spiritual way is that in the law of attraction, you want to attract the right people. Making your website as an extension of yourself made more sense to me than trying to make a website that was like something corporate or something else. Because I started to think in my office, which is my shower, is where I do all my thinking. I realized that I wouldn't want other people. I'd only want the ones that would be kind of an effortless flow. And so, you know, I looked at you and I looked at myself. And when we started both teaching remote viewing, at a certain point, you have your style that attracts all your people. And those people would never like how I do it. I'm very, like, crazy organized and, you know, follow a pattern, and my people wouldn't like the way you do it because you're a free flow. And that was really important to me and kind of sent me off to this really cool idea. Skipping back a second after I did hypnosis and I started getting very involved in remote viewing, I decided that it might be fun to mix everything together and help my friends get noticed on radio shows. So I just, on my own, reached out to different. The Art Bell was one, and it just so happened that they were looking for a producer. So talk about a synchronicity. And I don't know if something within me just said, hire me. And they did. And I ended up working for Art Bell as his producer and up until his death. And in that field, I incorporated marketing and business, and also the metaphysics or spirituality. And then I feel like I almost have a PhD in all weird things.
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Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
You're such a great example of how when someone wants to go for something, you just do it. Like the fact that you called up Art Bell and. Or was it him himself or his producer?
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Michelle Freed
Yeah, yeah.
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Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
So you call up and you say, hey, I'd like a job. Do you have an opening? And they're like, yeah, actually, we need someone right now who does that. And that's why I always said you would make a fantastic publicist. And you're such a great example of when someone has characteristics and those characteristics are plugged into what is needed in a position, it's going to work.
- [09:42]
Michelle Freed
That is a really good point. I used to direct musical theater, and so I have a lot of the skills that I developed over the years. I apply in what I'm doing because I can't tell you how many clients come to me as a tarot reader. So they're all Tarot readers. I have to find something about them that stands apart from other people so that they could be seen or heard or get their message across that they want to. So it's really important to take that time and get to know people and find those hidden gems, I guess you can say inside them and kind of move them forward and say, listen, you have all these things to offer, I bet you. And a lot of them are like, I never even thought anyone would care, but they do. And so, you know, I just, in a way, don't believe in competition. It's more like you get the people that you need and it's a law of attraction type deal.
- [10:48]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Can you give some examples with your Tarot card readers of how their unique personalities then help to inform what their website would look like or how they approach their publicity?
- [11:04]
Michelle Freed
Yeah, so one I have, she was a straight shooter, told it like it is kind of a New York personality. You know, that what we think of people in New York and there's a lot of people there that like to know where they stand. They like people being very direct to them. So. So she has, she has a demographic that would work for her. And so when we want to show that and speak that in her websites or any kind of marketing materials that we put out there to accentuate those things that those people would find attractive. Another one, she is a nurse and she comes from the healing and health. And then there's other ones that are more romance and, and those are the areas that you use and then you grow bigger. It's almost like therapy in a way. We'll sit and talk and I'll ask them questions that they haven't thought about so that they could make themselves more marketable. So one of my clients, her name is Dr. Kathleen Ball, she is an artist, but what she's marketing is the Knights of the Templar. And I suggested that she teach a class and use art as part of it. And she never really thought, oh, I could put this together. Of course you can. People would love that. So it's just about being very creative, thinking in a unique, out of the box way, and just allowing yourself to shine and all the other people to shine.
- [12:46]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
So first, tea, your point about having your own style, like on your website? I've had a few men tell me that my website's too colorful or like even my background. Right now I've got pink on my background. Not everyone is going to like pink. And that's something that I had to find out for myself because at one point I had a consultant who tried to get my image More business like and professional. And by the time I was done, my website looked very professional. Everything was spelled right. But I started having all of my present students write to me like, oh my gosh, what happened to your website? Like, it looks boring. It's like, we can't find you anymore. And that's how I felt. Like I felt like my soul had been ripped out of me. Because a website is so much reflective of who you are. And I love what you said. Like your clients, you're going to have the clients come to you who you can relate to and get along with well. And that's so important. It's not just, can I appeal to the most people so I can make the most money, it's really, can I appeal to people who are going to be in alignment with me so I can continue to enjoy my work, so I can continue to do this long term? Right? Because otherwise we're just going to have all sorts of situations that aren't right for us.
- [14:32]
Michelle Freed
And that's a huge point because there were, you know, when I first started out, there were moments where I was desperate and I wanted to take everyone, but boy did I, every time I learned why did I take on that client? Because it was so much resistance, not even conscious. I mean, it wasn't that I didn't like them or whatever. It's just that everything was hard or there was a block there and then you had the contrast where everything flows perfectly and you're actually having so much fun when you're meeting with them and you know, you feel really excited. And so I thought, you know, it's not worth it for the money. Obviously we all need to pay our bills and stuff like that. But to me, to have that heavy feeling isn't worth it. And you have to be disciplined about it. Because there were a couple big, huge, huge dollar amounts I could have made and I turned it down. As hard as it was, I mean, I had to really, I had to come to Jesus because I knew that looking down the line, it wasn't going to flow nicely and I would probably be an emotional wreck and have so much stress in my life and I just want as little as possible.
- [15:54]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
I had a consulting client this week and when we got on the phone, I said, okay, what would you like help with? And she said, well, I started to do intuitive readings and in my first month I made $5,000. And she said, and now months later, I'm hardly making anything. So I want you to tell me how I can get back to $5,000. And I said to her, okay, what happened in between those months? And by the way, like, I'm pretty amazed to hear that you made $5,000 just starting off like that's interesting and unusual. And she said, oh well, I had a breakdown and then had to go. I don't know if she said she went into the hospital for a while, but she had a mental breakdown, was diagnosed with something like schizotypal, something similar to schizophrenia, but not quite that. So I was like, okay, we have a lot to unpack here. But the thing that struck me was her very first comment was, I'm here because I want to get back to my $5,000. And I was like, this is the issue. First of all, how many sessions were you doing a week? And it was something like 50 sessions in a week. And I was like, oh my gosh, like you can't sustain that, you know, even if you are in the best mental health. Right, 50 sessions a week? You, how long can you do that? Okay, one week. And then if I do 10 sessions in a week, I might need a couple weeks to recover. Now people work differently, but it's about self care. What can you really handle beyond what do you have energy to give to people and what are you giving them but what is healthy for you? And would you agree that a person taking care of themselves and being realistic about what they can handle as far as workload, what they have energy for, what they have the mental capacity for, is always going to be more important than the desire to make a certain amount of money?
- [18:14]
Michelle Freed
Yeah, I mean it goes back to balance the scale. Can't get too one sided. If you're not up to doing a reading or something and you're asking for money for people and you don't feel you're at a hundred percent ethically, you need to reschedule. And that's in my opinion, I don't feel like you should give somebody like a half hearted reading or. But if you feel like you could do it, you can come. You know, some people can compartmentalize and if you feel like you're good at that, then fine. But it's usually again it's, it's a sign of your body telling you that you need a break.
- [18:56]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
It's more ethical to say, yeah, I'm not up for this, I'm not going to be able to do my best job. But then it's kind of an ethical dilemma because someone's scheduled, they've paid and now you're having to change what you Agreed to. Now, for me personally, I almost always reschedule. And then I have to deal with my strong desire to not want to disappoint people. And, you know, sometimes people have been really looking forward to it or they're in crisis and they'll even say like, oh gosh, you know, I cleared my whole day and I was really needing this because I have a decision to make. You know, I'll feel just terrible, but I'll be like, I don't feel I'm going to do my best job. And then of course, then most of the time people say, yeah, we'll reschedule, whether or not they voice disappointment. But it can be really hard to deal with that disappointment. And then of course, there will be a few people that just say, okay, I want a refund, I'm going to go somewhere else and you have to be okay with that. Like, that's just what I found all these years from the beginning. Like, the money is, like you said, part of an exchange, but the money wanting that money cannot be what drives your choices when it comes to what's healthy for yourself. And are you going to actually be able to deliver what you're saying you can deliver?
- [20:26]
Michelle Freed
Yeah, I think putting my marketing hat on, I think it's important to have a disclaimer that everybody sees. It says that, you know, there's a possibility that this appointment can be rescheduled. That sets an expectation to them. You're explaining that I want everybody deserves a hundred percent of a reading. And that will protect you, you know, from. It will also let you a little off the hook if you're feeling a little bad or guilty because you've already explained that this is part of my deal. And again, in the law of attraction, people that can't accept that you don't want them, you know, but people that can, and they're happy, they're like, yeah, I understand that those are the ones you want.
- [21:15]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
There are a lot of programs for coaching. And I believe because I have had so many clients come to me who have been in these programs that not all programs, but some of them are really multi level marketing schemes. And so what's happening is they go in, they're told by someone.
- [21:45]
Michelle Freed
Take our.
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Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Classes, become a life coach. You don't need to go to college, you don't need to become a therapist or get licensed. You can just be a life coach. And then, like me, you will be making thousands of dollars a month. And then they pay. Sometimes These programs are 10,000, 20,000, $50,000 you know, a year or for two years. And I have people come to me who I have this one woman, she was like, I don't know what to do. I'm on Instagram. I've done everything my coaching teacher did. She's bringing in five to $10,000 a month and I'm not doing well. And I said, okay, how long have you now been a coach yourself? When did you launch your business?
- [22:42]
Michelle Freed
You better call Michelle at litm.
- [22:45]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Yeah, that was the second thing I said, okay. The third, the first thing I asked her was, how long have you been in business for yourself? And she said, almost three months. And I was like, okay, you've only been in business for yourself three months and you are wondering why you're not making five to $10,000 through a professional coaching business. Okay, we have a lot to talk about here. And I was like, why do you have that expectation that you would and what are you doing to market your. And she said, well, I'm on Instagram. And I was like, what about the other platforms? No, just Instagram. That's what my teacher is doing. And this is what I'm finding out, that people are being misled or scammed by teachers who are saying, all you have to do is this. But it is a multi level marketing scheme. I don't have doubt that someone at the top is bringing in a lot of money like through all of this training. But, but when you start to talk to the person like, it doesn't, I'm like, do you even really feel what you got from your training that you could help any person in any situation or maybe they don't need to help anyone. But did you really learn skills that you're confident can make a difference with people? And most of the time they're like, well, not really, you know, learned a little bit, but I kind of already knew all of that. It was like more getting the credentials. So it's like, great, you just paid $50,000. You, you learned what you already knew and now you're comparing yourself to this teacher who told you they're making so much money. You know, that is so far from, you know, what I know from my classes and starting off with beginning students. I don't even like to mention money because I know it's going to freak out a lot of people and it sets the expectation, especially psychically. You know, it freaks them out because then they're like, oh, I, I need to be operating like a professional, you know, while I'm learning. And it's like, no, when you're learning, you need to just feel totally free to mess up to, to. You need to be free to fall into learn and to not have any pressures at all. So they're coming from like this totally backwards perspective. Like, let's focus on the money first. Have you seen this with people?
- [25:28]
Michelle Freed
Yeah, I mean that stuff is always out there. It's usually people that want something easy and quick and they don't understand that it's work. It's a lottery if you can just skyrocket up there. But in general, most people, the general population, we have to work. We have to work and we have to, to set goals and things like that. The difference between certified and licensed, there's a little, you know, anybody can get certified. Licenses are harder to get.
- [26:03]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
And that was something I also saw for my client, the one that was upset she wasn't making the same amount she made in her first month. I was like, you know, I feel like maybe you might want to go back to college and you know, take some counseling classes, you know, go, go do a practicum, like actually get the experience and get the skills so that you really then would have that confidence level to be a practitioner. Because don't you find that too, like someone might, someone might make money immediately, but if they really don't have the skills and abilities to be effective with people, they're not going to be able to maintain that very long.
- [26:55]
Michelle Freed
I mean, you know, someone can be really good at marketing, but not good at the product. Yeah.
- [27:02]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Needing to get the skills and abilities so that the flashy marketing is going to actually be an honest reflection of what you can really do. I'm finding that to be a big problem right now that there are self marketers that they build beautiful websites. You know, they can have like a book cover that looks really nice and then you look in the book and it's just like they didn't even write it themselves or you know, there's no substance there. But yeah, it's so easy for people these days to look like they're really an established practitioner or business. They don't have the skills.
- [27:49]
Michelle Freed
Yeah, they might get initial success on that first impression, but if you have nothing to sustain it, then you won't keep people. I mean, my idea is having clients for two, three, four years where they keep coming back and we want to evolve them so they come in for the first year, second year. Okay, what are we doing next year? We're evolving them into different things. Also, young people don't have enough experiences in general. In their life to even come up with creative ideas because they just haven't had enough experiences in life, just in general.
- [28:32]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
There's two things about that with age, I think, especially when it's people that are in a role of a practitioner, like some kind of therapeutic role, even if they're not calling themselves a therapist. One is older people are not always comfortable with a younger person giving them input into their life. I used to have it when I worked out of that bookstore in sedona. I had three different women my first year. I was only 27, I probably looked like I was 17. And they walked into my office, took one look at me and said, you are too young. They were like, you remind me of my granddaughter. And I can't be. You may be a great psychic, but I can't even be listening to someone who reminds me of my granddaughter. I eventually grew up and now I'm their age. And so that's not an issue anymore. But that is an issue for some younger people. And then the other thing is that it takes years to get the level of experience. So you are confident working with lots of people. Not that you can't be a 20 year old intuitive and have really fantastic information and help a lot of people. But there is something to say for experience. And the other thing is the way that you get a larger clientele is to be patient. I have people where I work with them 20 years ago and I haven't heard from them for 20 years and they come back for a session and you know, you have all these different people where, yeah, they may have five years, 10 years in between, but then when they really need something, they're going to come back.
- [30:24]
Michelle Freed
Exactly.
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Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
The other thing is, again, like, I know therapists do this where they'll have the person work with them like once a week for years. Right. But do they really need to be meeting for years? Do they really need to be meeting once a week? Maybe if they have something really serious going on. But I know for a fact, because I've talked to like my licensed psychologist friends and a couple of them have admitted that they are sometimes seeing the client not because that client really needs to see them, but because they're counting on that for income. And so when I first started to do readings professionally and people still ask me this, they'll be like, okay, I'll get another session with you. How soon should I come back? Or how long should I wait? And I never want to see someone a week later, you know, unless like they had so many questions and we didn't get to those questions, and. But if there's any chance that we're going to just repeat what we already got, I'll be like, you know, wait a few months or, you know, just wait until you feel like there's something in your life where you're really, you know, needing some extra help with. But I don't want to see people and just keep repeating the same thing.
- [31:45]
Michelle Freed
Yeah, I was going to say hypnosis works pretty quick, depending on the situation. You know, you can probably, if you have an issue, work on it in three sessions and be done.
- [31:57]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
When I first started to do readings for people professionally, and this was like, about almost 30 years ago in Sedona, Arizona, I worked out of a New Age center there, and I had all sorts of people coming in from, like, all over the country. And I really learned the lesson very fast that in doing this work, every moment you have to be in alignment with your own integrity. You have to be very aware of all the different compromising situations that can come up any moment. And part of the situation is where there's something being presented financially where, you know, if you say yes to it, sure, you're going to make money, but then you're going to lose a little bit of your integrity or your soul. And there's. In this field, especially back then in Sedona, like, there, there were a lot of unscrupulous people. And at that time, I was a single mom. Heart always broke in those days. And it would have been so easy to say yes to all kinds of situations, including this one group of the people behind the Ms. Cleo infomercials came into town and they had auditions for psychics to be on their. They called it their show. But really what they were trying to do was have people who would then say they were Ms. Cleo. And callers would call in thinking that's who they were getting to talk to. And it would have paid a lot of money. But I was in the middle of the audition and they were going to bring me onto the next step. And then I realized what this was, and I was like, no, sorry. And I walked out knowing that I didn't have my rent money for the month. But I just trusted that if I said no to that, something else would come up. And what came up was I had to go get a job apart from this work. You know, I did my psychic work on the side, but I had to keep doing other work until that work supported my spiritual work. And I don't know if you Know who Krishna Das is? He's a very well known pantor. He does like ecstatic music. He's. Many of our listeners will know who he is. And back then I had a TV show in Sedona called the Psychic Explorer and I had him as a guest. He came over to my little apartment and I was really struggling because, you know, again, times were hard and I had left my job as a federal probation officer a year or two before that and I had left a full time salary to devote myself to my spiritual work. And it just wasn't supporting me yet. And I said to him, what can I do? Like, I really need advice. That was really why I wanted to interview him, was to ask him some questions like that. And he said, there's nothing spiritual about being broke and if you need money, go get a job. And you know, that's exactly what I did. I became a banquet server at the Hilton for a few years and, you know, that made ends meet until, you know, I could be doing all of this full time. And have you found that where you have clients who maybe they write a book for the first time and now they think that their whole life is going to change immediately and they're not going to do any other work and somehow money is just gonna fall out of the sky or.
- [35:55]
Michelle Freed
Yeah, I, I, well first I wanted to say another viewpoint of ethics involved. I start my first consultation with people telling them that I'm gonna be honest. I want them to know where they stand. I'll definitely not be rude or anything like that, but I believe that if we want people to do better, then we have to like pull it from them. We have to make them work for it. They have to be able to take criticism. I have some clients that I've talked to in the past where they have this mindset that they're the only one that does it and that they're so unique and so I have to be honest with them. And that's kind of what I was talking about before. I have to say, listen, there's, this is just an example. I'm not thinking about anybody in particular, but for example, the tarot cards. Well, I have 10 people that, you know, can be my client on tarot cards. And this one comes up to me and like, but mine's different. I'm, you know, I'm the only one and I have to kind of put them back down to earth and say, listen, there's competition here in a way. Like there's other people doing it. We need to find something that sets you apart from other people. So it's like a reality check. I think people are learning now that unless you have a book on the bestseller, you're not gonna. You're not gonna make bank on a book. But there are other ways. The book is one of many things to get you where you need to go. And so I feel like you keep your eye on the target. Always have that intention that we set. And that's another thing that I started to ask people for their mission statements, which we all know. A mission statement is a couple sentences about what we want the public to know about our mission. But I also asked them for their intention statement. You know, what is your intention? What do you want out of it? And what that does is it helps me as their publicist. Every material, every piece of anything, every word I speak for them, every pitch I do is all pointing due north to what their intention is. I'm not making assumptions and I'm working on fulfilling their vision. And so that's, that's my approach to things, is this isn't about me, it's about them. And it's not about their book, it's not about their class, it's about them. And so what I want to do is promote them that way. Anything they do, this leaves room to evolve. Anything they do, people will know them. So they're the brand, not the book or the other kind of things that surround them. So that's my approach.
- [38:54]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
And what are some of their intentions? Is it all about they want to make money from their work or do they have other intentions?
- [39:03]
Michelle Freed
Yes, it's incredible. People that come to me are of service. They really, truly want to help people. I get a lot of people that have a hard time asking for money. And so we have to have a little talk about that, a little talky poo. As I say, about what money is and why money is so important, it is surprising that people are genuinely just want to help people. And I feel the same too. If I was independently wealthy, like, I wouldn't want to charge because I would get something else from it. But right now the bills have to be paid. And you know, you have to live and exist and that's okay.
- [39:47]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
A lot of times skeptics are saying, like, oh, people are just doing this for the money and not understanding exactly what you just said, that most people who get into all of these topics, they're just so passionate about them. And when I have students come into my clairvoyant classes or remote viewing classes, most cannot even fathom ever charging for this stuff. And if I even just start to talk about that, they get really anxious. And even when they have been doing, say, remote viewing for a number of years, they start to participate in some projects where there could be funding. I always have a percentage of people that turn down the funding. They're like, I don't want the pressure. I don't want this to get in the way of what I'm doing. And they just won't accept it. So let's talk about the pictures that people have around payment for spiritual services, and let's unpack that a little bit. What do you say to people who feel like it's not right to charge for a spiritual service? Whether that is like for doing an intuitive reading or remote viewing session or any of the other topics that you cover?
- [41:14]
Michelle Freed
Well, two things. One, on the surface, I would say and explain to them that money is just energy. It's an energy transfer. But looking at it deeper, I find a pattern, that it's associated with worthiness, that people don't feel worthy in general. And so there comes the therapy session where you explain to them the value that you're providing to these people and how you potentially can be changing their lives and so many positive things for them. Sometimes it's even priceless. We have that kind of talk about it, but. But in general, like, just plain and simple, it's an energy exchange. It is part of balance of talk and spiritual giving and receiving. It's part of the process. So if, if the scales are. Are not balanced, then it won't be balanced. So those things are really important.
- [42:19]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
It makes sense for someone who's in training, who wants to get the experience of working with people, no matter what modality, whether hypnotherap, psychic work, coaching, to get that experience. But there does come a time where you say to yourself, okay, I just spent an hour or two with this person, or I just spent 20 hours this week working with people. And during that time I gave every ounce of myself. And now if I don't start charging for this, unless I'm independently wealthy, I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to decide, do I just keep doing this or do I go and get a different job or other work? Most people can't sustain themselves for just giving away their time freely and not getting something back. And don't you find that a lot of people's pictures around this come from their religious programming where there's all these religions that say you shouldn't charge for your spiritual Work. Have you heard?
- [43:36]
Michelle Freed
You know, I don't know if more like charity people seem to have this thought, like when you're of service, it's more like a charity situation. And then it's frowned upon to ask for money. When you're giving charity to me, this is not charity at all. You're, you're, it's along the lines of being like, we're not therapists, but it's, it's, it's emotionally invested in people and, and helping people to become the person that they're supposed to be. It's not charity. You know, go bake a pie or a cake for somebody and then give it to them, you know, for charity or donate money or something like that in a proper environment. But what we're doing is literally helping people potentially be better. They're asking for, and even people that can't afford it want to pay. So people that are asking the money aren't realizing that these people do want to pay. You're going to get some people that are trying to get freebies, of course, but really good people, ethical people, they want to. So you're really just fulfilling this bargain, this giving and receiving contract.
- [45:00]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
In my mediumship class, I have the students do presentations on well researched physical mediums. And as some of the students were presenting on their mediums, they were making the statements, this medium is trustworthy because they never charge for the, for their services. And that came up with about three of the well known physical mediums from the past. And I had to point out to the students because when that's getting reinforced, these people are believable. We can trust them because they never ask for any money at all. I understand on one level why that is, because skeptics are looking for motivations for maybe why someone would be fraudulent. But that idea does permeate our culture.
- [46:06]
Michelle Freed
I think it's a programming, it's something that goes back generations that people just have in their head of this is what you do in this situation, this is how it works. And it just gets.
- [46:21]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
We find so many religious leaders that are living very well. They have their housing taken care of, they have all their meals taken care of, everything is paid for. So then they're free to devote themselves to service to others or to prayer. And yet where's the money coming from? It's coming from the people. So this is really where people don't realize, like even the gurus in India, their every single need is being taken care of. Not only do they have everything paid for, they may have a Whole entourage of people, sometimes they have hundreds of devotees that are not only there to run their errands, to clean the ashram to, you know, and there I forget the word for that of where everyone comes together and cleans the ashram. You know, if I had people coming to cook my meals, clean my house, pay my bills, I would gladly give all my services away for free. I would give all my classes away for free. And by the way, if anyone is listening and would like to send a donation of, you know, five to $10 million, I think I would. Or if you want to come over and clean my house, I'm not going to stop you there. But, you know, it still is a business. That's the point that I wanted to make. Like whether you have a business model of each person who gets a service is going to pay you directly, or your business model is someone's going to pay you and then that your services could go out to others, not necessarily just the people that brought that money in. Whether you call it a donation or a payment, in a way it's the same thing. It's just what we're calling it and our pictures around it. And I think this becomes more clear today where, say, a lot of people have the business model of memberships. Like we're going to have a monthly membership fee, or they don't call it a fee, they call it a donation. So in that case, what's the difference between a donation and.
- [48:47]
Michelle Freed
This is such an interesting topic. I would love to anybody listening to share what they think about this, because I think we can learn a lot from everybody else too. I'm sure there's other people that have a different perspective. My perspective of religion is there are certain people that really, really need it to function and that they would probably be willing to spend any amount of money that they need to keep it up, because that's what grounds them and that's what they need. And I don't have any judgment. It's just the people that are kind of forcing it on people. But I also think that in when we're talking about religion, like ritualistic stuff, it. It's a lot about the programming and expectations, and they're kind of consistent with different things in different religions, but the expectations are very consistent.
- [49:49]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
I think this is related to the way that people perceive our spiritual and intuitive abilities. Because for a long time there was a perception that your intuitive abilities are your intuitive gifts. And they're gifts given by God. And that means if they were given by God, then they should Be shared freely. And this is where I think that line of thinking falls apart when you look at anybody who has a special ability, like, why should someone who plays basketball or football, and they're very good at catching or throwing a ball, which, you know, we're not too good at that, you know, or they could run fast, or they could. They have a beautiful voice or a musical talent. It's okay for them not even just to get paid a little bit, but to get paid mega millions of dollars. Like, how is that not a gift? But then someone is using their intuitive abilities, and they're told, well, that comes from God. You should just give that away freely. And if you're not, you know, you must not be authentic. But this idea that only a few people have these special gifts, that idea is starting to fall apart because we have so much evidence now showing that people can learn to develop this innate skill. It's not just a gift, even though some people may be more talented than.
- [51:38]
Michelle Freed
Others, but it's not even that they're learning. It's that they're becoming aware. With a lot of social media, we can reach more people. It's a lot of access, and plus, people are more open. When I started working with Art Bell, I would get phone calls all the time where people would tell me about that. They felt like they had an abduction one night. They don't really remember, but some things they do in the whole thing. And I'd say, oh, do you want to come on the show and talk about it? No way. You know, none of them wanted to come and talk about it. But now people are more open, and they're realizing there are more people out there with similar stories and things like that. Obviously, you have a few people that might be. Not what they're saying isn't really true. It gets diluted by. By our vocabulary. So I'll give you an example. I was in Oklahoma, and we were teaching remote viewing while we were giving a little presentation to the Oklahoma police Department. And I realized I couldn't go into the Oklahoma police department and talk about psychic abilities. So I had to change my vocabulary. I had to use words like follow your gut. What's your instinct say, I had to use different words, but basically everybody's feeling the same way. They always have a gut feeling. People will go, oh, my gosh, I had a dream last night, and this came true. And so even people that claim they don't believe it, they don't even realize that they're having these experiences. But because they're turned off or blocked off by the words we use. They don't acknowledge it as part of what we're talking about. All these things that we talk about is just part of being human, period. There's nothing a gift. Being a human is a gift in general. And all the different skills and things that we can do, that's all part of being human. You got the piano gene, I got the singing gene, someone else got the sports gene. That's it. But we all have ability to do everything.
- [54:04]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
And people deserve to be compensated for their time, their experience, their work. You know, whether you're a nurse, a doctor, a teacher, we would never say to a talented teacher, you shouldn't receive a salary because you're too talented. You should just give this away. We say that to anybody, but then this is being said to practitioners, to intuitive practitioners and others in this field. Now, on the flip side of all of this, we know that there are people that are fraudulent or maybe have talents but take advantage of people. People come and they say, well, how can I trust this practitioner? Like what they're telling me? Or how do I know if someone's being a con artist and isn't real? And I have a couple clues to that one. I always say if the person tells you that you need further services and they say that they're the only one that can help, or there's only one thing that will help and they have it, and you have to pay them more money than you paid for your initial session, then away as fast as you can, right? Because it is never true that only one practitioner can help somebody or that there's only one way to help them. If they're saying follow up services are needed, they shouldn't cost more than the same as the initial session.
- [55:50]
Michelle Freed
We'd even go even before that, I would say if we could interview a hundred people on this subject, I would say that 95% of the people had a gut feeling that this person wasn't someone they can trust. Because if they're asking, then they're questioning, you know, inside when someone's the real deal and you know, when there's a red flag that pops up of it's just the fact that we dismiss it or we want to believe or something like that. But Really, I think 95% of the people just need to listen to their body and what their bodies are telling them.
- [56:36]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Part of the problem is, is that there are some people out there where we can't even say they're frauds as far as psychics, because some of Them are very psychic, but they're also con artists. So what happens is it's usually the people that have the shops with the hand outside, there is a whole network of people and doing this. And some of them will be very psychic. And then also some are good at just saying things to make people believe that they are. But the problem is that a lot of people who come to psychics, they think if, if they hit on something really strong and maybe it was very authentic and, and it's really mind blowing what that psychic told them, then they believe everything that they say. And that's the problem. And this isn't just a problem with psychics. This is a problem with any spiritual leader, right? And any religious reader, any religious leader, that people give too much trust because they did something to help them. They did something, they inspired them, they gave them some piece of wisdom, they changed their life in some way. And now they believe everything they say is something that they should believe and follow. And I've. I had to learn that lesson the hard way. You know, there are healers that can have an amazing effect, but those healers are unethical in other aspects of their life. So let's talk about that a little bit because this is a really big thing that people wouldn't be pulled into cults, they wouldn't be pulled into really unpleasant situations if it wasn't for this thing where they take one thing the person did and now they just listen to everything they say from there.
- [58:52]
Michelle Freed
I think that paying attention is very important because I think the signs are there. There are times when we're not paying attention and then we get sucked in. Ultimately, you're going to get that gut feeling. I strongly believe that, that people know. I've talked to several people. I don't know if this is related, but it kind of is. Where they have gone through a divorce. And I asked them before they got married, did they know? And they're like, yeah, I knew not to get married. Like a huge. I don't know the statistics, I can't say, but a lot more than I expected. We're like, yeah, I just. The wedding was planned, I had to go through with it, but I just knew. And all these people that you hear, like, I knew my husband or wife was having an affair, it's. And then you have people, oh, so surprised. It's usually because they're not paying attention. And I think that's really important. And also not only in bad things, but paying attention to synchronicities and manifestations, those are important. Too. So the whole idea of paying attention could really help on both sides. Being aware of things that you need to stay away from and then also things that are coming in your life.
- [60:13]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
The problem I've found with synchronicities though is there are a lot of people that really are hoping that something is true. And so they will turn anything into a sign to support that. They want to believe that they're going to be with a particular person. And so whether or not they are just turning everything into a sign that they're meant to be together. You know, they hear a love song and it's like, oh, that's playing right when I was thinking of the person. So that must be a sign, want to be together. You know, that person has already told them they're not going to be with them. That person won't call them, won't text them, but that's how they're meant to be together.
- [61:09]
Michelle Freed
Yeah. And that would be like the dark side of synchronicities where, you know, in all these things people can really go overboard on everything. They can just get too obsessed and. But having a balance is, is what we shoot for. And that is something that, that's legitimate, that can happen. But I'm thinking when I talk about synchronicities are kind of connected to manifestations. So you actively set out an intent, intention, but pay attention. You set out an intention, pay attention and then, then you'll see it because so many times things just pass, pass by and you missed it. Something just nagging at you to pay attention and then you keep ignoring it and then that nag gets louder and stronger and that kind of thing.
- [62:09]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
I think that sometimes maybe they're manifesting a synchronicity. Like for a while I had people coming to me who were like, you know, I asked for a sign that he was going to be in my life long term. And I was walking on the beach and I found a heart shaped rock. And then in this one example, they came back a few months later and they're like, oh, you know, he told me he's married and we're not going to be together. So why did I find a heart shaped rock on the beach? Well, one. And scientists would call it confirmation bias. You know, there could be lots of rocks that are heart shaped, but whether or not they fixated on it or maybe they manifested something. But are people manifesting the answer or are they manifesting their belief? If I say I intend to see a sign that says we're going to be together, then maybe I'M just seeing that sign because that's what I wanted, not because life is telling me what's really going to happen.
- [63:20]
Michelle Freed
Yeah, exactly. It's a perspective. They could see the signs, but they have to be open enough to realize, like, what does that sign actually mean? The heart rock? Did it have a crack in it? They're just going, oh, the heart, but was there a crack in it? Things like that. So yeah, that's just the. The hard side of it. And it is definitely a challenge to know.
- [63:48]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
So another topic I think is really important to address is how many sexual predators there are in the metaphysical realm. And I want to talk about some of these topics. And in some ways I feel like, oh, I'm not supposed to be talking about this. And I was thinking about this last night because I was writing down some of these topics and I thought, wow, there is. I don't know where this comes from that we're not supposed to talk about it, maybe because for so long in these areas there's just been so many skeptics and negativity about all of this. So if we say anything negative about metaphysical communities, which could include energy healers, different kinds of massage therapists, hypnotherapists, psychics, authors and speakers. I can't tell you over the years how many women I've had as friends, as clients, as students, who had terrible situations happen with people who were massage therapists, were healers, where other intuitives, where they drew them in and then they wanted to have some kind of sexual relationship. Sometimes they actually did have that they did have physical relations with them. Other times they got. Got fixated on them. I was talking to a client about this last night. She was like, I don't know how I got fixated on this guy that was like a healer. And he taught classes. And she was like, you know, he said he was celibate. And I was like, right there. I can't tell you how many guys have said that they're celibate. But then they get entangled with women and it's something I think that's very attractive to women. Like, oh, he's celibate, but he's paying attention to me and he's starting to indicate he wants some kind of relationship. And then sometimes they actually end up do having sex with the person. Other times it just becomes like years of obsession. And. And when I lived in Sedona, I sometimes would have like three different people come who were fixated on a particular healer. It was all the same healer because he was Doing the same thing. You know, women are very vulnerable. Like, if you just sit. Sit with a woman, look in her eyes and listen to her and maybe give her a compliment every once in a while, like, that's all it takes. You know, you get. Guys don't realize this. Like, that's the formula. You're going to have, like, single women, no matter how you look, no matter what your economic status is, like, that is going to have an impact on most women and these guys, like. And then you enter in the spirituality part, because I think what happens too is, you know, people connect to God and to higher energies through other people. And I think this is why people get drawn into religions, they get drawn into cults. They get drawn into particular people. Because when someone is channeling the energy of God or. Or the Holy Spirit or any higher vibration in that moment, when someone's channeling that and that comes through, that's very powerful. People can feel it. They have a transformational experience. But then it's like getting imprinted on that person who brought that experience in. And that person could still be a molester. You know, we see this with John of God, with. With so many of these other gurus who it turned out that they were molesting lots of people. And, you know, then there's that question of, like, oh, how could this have happened? How. How could I have been drawn into this? You know, I felt something with the person, like it made a difference. And so they're confusing the person for that energy that's coming through.
- [68:13]
Michelle Freed
I'd like to see women understand that they don't need a man to complete them. So in that movie with Tom Cruise, there's this big scene where I think he says, you complete me. And all the ladies go, oh, to me, that's the worst thing to say. So I'm thinking, complete yourself and find somebody that completed themselves. And that's when you're going to have this. This amazing, amazing relationship is having two, two. Two people that are already complete and then blending in all into one. So that is really the, I think, the bottom line of all of this, that women would not be in those situations if they were confident they wouldn't be looking. They would have. Be holding themselves to a higher standard and expect more from another human being. Somebody that lifts them up and makes them better and someone that they could feel like they could make better and that kind of thing. So to me, that's. It's about empowering men that need it and women that need it. And that's really how you solve the problem is having confidence.
- [69:40]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Well, I agree with that. I don't know if you could just easily have someone suddenly get confident though, just by saying you need more confidence, like it.
- [69:54]
Michelle Freed
But it's something they should be working on. And throughout my life, I was never the kind of girl that dreamt about getting married or I was really more like, I want to be a mom kind of thing. I wasn't really into the romance and all that stuff, but my friends were. And I would call them desperate and I didn't like how that looked. And what I understood is that they lack confidence. And the idea is, is that they may not even be aware that's what's going on. Because I think that a lot of women will go for men that aren't good for them because they don't feel worthy, that they could have somebody that is an upstanding person that treats them like a queen, that kind of thing. So I think that women need to make this choice to work on that. We also have body image that has plagued me personally, how we're supposed to look and all that stuff. None of us would be feeling lacking if we could work on being more confident.
- [71:04]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Totally agree with that. I do think there is another element though, and it's an energetic element. And I see this when reading people and seeing energy connections. So if someone goes in, let's say, to a healer, and that healer is blasting sexual energy like all through them and you know, actually touching them, then there can be an energetic connection that the recipient feels. People who are empathic can feel other people's sexual energy and not always know, is this mine or is this theirs? Especially if theirs is running through their body. And even if, let's say they're a little bit more open, they're, they're single, they're looking for someone, but this person, they start off where this person wouldn't be right for them at all, but they start getting this energy blasted through them. So I've seen that between people and like healers, which is one reason why I started to recommend to people that they're susceptible to, that they might not have someone the opposite sex or just, I mean, these days that doesn't matter because it could happen with same sex people just needing to look out for that. It really is about is the practitioner setting boundaries. And of course the this is true even with therapists or counselors. Like, I've had some very strange experiences with licensed therapists even.
- [72:35]
Michelle Freed
I was going to say that what you're bringing up can also Happen in corporate. I mean, it's anywhere. And, you know, it is about also paying attention, being aware. When you're in this kind of situation, pay attention and listen to your gut. If you feel like, ooh, something's not right, run. Don't look back.
- [72:59]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Well, and the reason I'm bringing it up, though, is in the realm of spirituality and metaphysics, when people have the belief that, oh, this is the person I trust, you know, this is a more spiritually advanced person. I think that's it is that there are a lot of people that will look at someone who's an author, a speaker, even, you know, someone here, like, being interviewed, and especially someone who is speaking in spiritual terms or godly terms, they're already looking at that person as better than themselves or more powerful. And then when that energy exchange starts to happen, both sexually but also spiritually, you know, again, they're channeling that energy. That is a fatal combination. And that's where I think people, especially a lot of women, are getting just sucked into these cults, getting sucked in to all sorts of things. I think that can even happen with a highly confident woman. Maybe, though, if she's highly confident, like you're saying, she'll notice something's wrong, or what usually will happen is she'll speak up about it, whereas someone who's not confident will not speak up about it, and then they'll continue to get pulled in further and further.
- [74:27]
Michelle Freed
Yeah, I mean, anyone can have, like, a vulnerable day, a vulnerable moment. Even the most confident person can get sucked into any of these situations. But as you're talking, I mean, the example of doctors comes to mind. They're. They're. We're supposed to listen to doctors who are programmed that they're the authority on medical issues, but the truth is that we know what's best. How many times have you heard stories where people are like, this doesn't feel right. And the doctor's like, there's nothing wrong with you. And then they find out that unfortunately something was wrong. And I had a personal situation with one of my kids where for a year I was sucked in, putting this kid through a billion tests. And finally I just, like, woke up one day and said, no, stop. We're not doing this anymore. Because we were just going in the system. I was just following everything blindly. And that's the key. I was following everything.
- [75:31]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
And let me stop you there, because I think we're getting to something really significant here. Why were you following everything blindly that the doctor told you?
- [75:43]
Michelle Freed
Because I was programmed to Believe they're the authority on all these subjects. And so I. I was like, oh, okay, well, this is what I'm supposed to do. And everybody in my life supported that idea. Yeah, yeah, keep going, Keep going.
- [76:00]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Didn't you kind of like that? Like, didn't that make you feel good until you realized that wasn't the helping? But wasn't there something comforting in that? Knowing that you could go to an authority and they had the answers and everything would be okay?
- [76:18]
Michelle Freed
In my specific example, no, because it was my kid. But I understand what you're saying, that you would have a sense of ease knowing that you're going to be taken care of in that case. I didn't feel that way, but I know what you're saying. I'm pretty much a confident person. I mean, I have some areas that I need to work on, but even. I'll tell you that a lot. A while ago, I had an incident that happened that was not like me to. To do. And in our neighborhood where we live, people would come to the door and ask for charity. They would come, and I. I'm sure people have that all over. And I wasn't thinking anything. The guy had a green card, which meant that he should be okay, and he was approved to go around and ask for money. And I was working on my computer. The doorbell rang, and I was kind of out of it. It was a very hot summer day, and I let him in to get him some water and. And he tried to attack me.
- [77:26]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Oh, my God.
- [77:28]
Michelle Freed
I wasn't. I wasn't paying attention. I never would have let anybody in my house that I didn't know. And I was just. I don't know, out of it. I was not paying attention. I was in a twilight. I don't know what it was.
- [77:44]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
So you were part of a particular community in those days, and he was part of the same community. Right. So there was this trusting him because he was part of that same community.
- [77:59]
Michelle Freed
Exactly.
- [77:59]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Have let in someone else who wasn't part of that community.
- [78:04]
Michelle Freed
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Some, you know, like, oh, this should be okay. But I don't even think the problem is. I don't even think I thought about it. I'm even questioning myself that if it was even someone else out of the community, if I would have let them in too. I don't know. Obviously it didn't happen, but I was not happy with myself that I let my guard down. But as women were kind of nurturing, we want to help people out. It. It's our nature to do those things. And it, you know, we have to actually work at doing that. We have to work at putting up a guard. We just do. We're just, you know, we're not as big as men and, you know, we can be tough and all that, but we do have to work at paying attention and being aware of our surroundings. And so these things don't happen.
- [79:02]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
This thing about trusting people from the same community, I'm the last person who wants to make people paranoid, but I see this all the time. For example, I have a social media site and I have the rule that people have to be at least 18 years old because I don't want to bring about a connection between younger people who are too trusting with older people. But even the older people, like I've had people come on and they gave like too much of their personal information where they started to talk to someone and it didn't go well. And then finally it came to my attention and I was able to help get that person that was being a predator off of this site. And I do what I can to monitor people, but I had to say to, in this case, my student, just because it's a social media site that someone you trust, myself, has started, that doesn't mean that every single person here is going to be trustworthy. You know, even if you've met so many incredible people that you would, you know, give your firstborn child to, to care for, there could be one person who is a creditor. So don't even, don't even come into my class and trust that every single student is going to be doing what they should be doing. You know, and people are just too trusting. And the other part of it is, yeah, people have been burned by doctors and the regular medical establishment, and yet they're rejecting them. And then coming over to non traditional healers and then having some of the same things happen, Right? So it's not about rejecting one or the other. It's about that discernment, going there with healthy skepticism, taking what you can. And like you said, if something doesn't feel right, then go get a second opinion, a third opinion, and also go to both. I completely believe in going to traditional doctors, you know, and I have so many people who come to me and they're like, will you give me a reading on this or that health issue? And the first thing I ask is, did you go get an MRI or a C scan or a blood test, do that first? And then if they didn't find anything or have questions that can't just Be answered, like, straight out by a test. Then I'm happy to see what we can do to you out or help you with, you know, coping. But there are far too many people that are not taking advantage anymore of modern science and remote viewing.
- [82:05]
Michelle Freed
A medapps version. And this is something we say, you know, we'll do scans, we'll tell you this, but you have to seek a.
- [82:12]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Doctor, too, finding this to really be a big problem, that people are rejecting different treatments that are actually readily available to them. And I had one woman come for a reading, and I could tell there was something majorly wrong with her. And I was like, when was the last time you saw a doctor or had a test? And she was like, maybe about eight years ago. And I was like, you know what? I want you to go to the ER right now. Like, we're ending the session. Go right now. And she did. And they told her that if she had waited any longer, she would have died. So, yeah, she had some issue with her heart, and she was, like, on her deathbed. So, you know, I guess coming to a psychic there helped, but she should have gone and gotten. She had been having symptoms for years, you know, but she just didn't like doctors. So, Michelle, you're a radio show producer for Jimmy Church's Fade to Black. That's a radio program that airs every evening.
- [83:23]
Michelle Freed
Yeah, Monday through Thursday.
- [83:25]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Do you ever have people approach you where you don't really believe them and then wouldn't want to work with them?
- [83:32]
Michelle Freed
Yeah, I had. I had a guy who was a Holocaust denier. Yeah. I was like, I don't. I'm not comfortable with that. So. Yeah. And then there was another guy. This was actually for Art Bell show. It's kind of a funny story, but not really. This guy called me up, asked if he could be on the show because. So he could tell his love story with Dolly the dolphin. And. And he claims that the two of them were in love, and he has, like, it's. I could tell everybody to watch it on YouTube. There's a doc. But once you see it, I'm just warning you, you can't unsee it. Okay. You can't unsee it. I am. I mean, I'm traumatized.
- [84:22]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Oh, no. Oh, no.
- [84:26]
Michelle Freed
I would not. I would not put him on the show. Oh, for sure. Neither of those. Yeah. So. Yeah, that was. Yeah, not good.
- [84:39]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Oh, no. Well, I think that's a good note to end on here, Dolly. I do not even want to imagine what that might be about. Thank you so much for Being here and being willing to talk about these really difficult topics, you know, because they are. And, and I loved what you said earlier, like you wanted to hear from the audience and you know, there's a place on the YouTube page where they can put their comments. And of course we ask people to be, you know, respectful into it. I think we really have had a balance, intense discussion here about these topics, but. So we ask people to be respectful but to say what they think as well.
- [85:33]
Michelle Freed
I mean, I will check back and respond once this is aired. But yeah, I think that it's really like we can talk, you know, we talk all the time, but. And then we also have our own podcast too, so. And we talk about these things. But we were on good behavior here on the show. Show. We might get into it a little more on our own private show.
- [86:00]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Yeah. And we could say our show is called the Side Chicks and we just film that episode maybe right now like every other week or so. But you could also find us on YouTube. And yeah, we're a little less formal there. We like to be silly and kind of goofy. We're not at all like that here, of course. No. But yeah, when you're talking about ethics, you know, there really is not necessarily a right or wrong answer and we've given our opinions, but I think just putting a lot out there to think about it and yeah, it'll be interesting.
- [86:39]
Michelle Freed
Lots of different perspectives that we didn't even think about. So that's what I'm excited to see. You know, just things that, that make me aware of different people's point of views. So I, I am excited to see that. I hope people will do that for sure. And yeah, if they want to reach out to me, they could also. And yeah, it's all good. Sounds good.
- [87:08]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
All right, thank you. Till next time.
- [87:11]
Michelle Freed
Yes, bye. Book four in the new Thinking Allowed dialogue series is Charles T. Tar 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology. Now available on Amazon.
- [87:49]
Narrator/Announcer
New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cihs.edu. you can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingalowed.org the Complete Clairvoyant is.
- [88:32]
Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove
A three volume set that teaches you how to access your own intuitive abilities. These for practical applications. These include you are psychic. Extraordinary Psychic and freeing the genie within. You can find these on Amazon. And you can also listen to. You are psychic on audible.
- [89:03]
Dr. Debra Lynn Katz
Sam.