Podcast Summary: "The Business of Spirituality with Michelle Freed"

Podcast: New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Host: Dr. Debra Lynn Katz (guest host)
Guest: Michelle Freed
Date: September 23, 2025

Overview

This episode features an in-depth discussion between Dr. Debra Lynn Katz and Michelle Freed—an acclaimed radio producer, publicist, hypnotherapist, and remote viewing instructor—centered around the business aspects, ethics, and real-life challenges of working professionally within spiritual, metaphysical, and intuitive fields. The conversation explores personal journeys, marketing with integrity, the complexities of charging for spiritual work, client/practitioner boundaries, exploitation, self-care, and community responsibility.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Journeys into Spiritual Business

[03:42-08:55]

• Michelle Freed describes her path from a background in marketing and theater direction to hypnosis and parapsychology, crediting Dr. Katz for first introducing her to remote viewing.
• Faced with skepticism and a conservative cultural climate in Chicago, Michelle sought a practical approach:
  • She blended hypnosis with marketing (“hypnomarketing”), focusing on creating authentic branding for spiritual practitioners (websites, outreach strategies).
• Her entry into radio came through a serendipitous and bold call to Art Bell, which launched her producer and publicist career.

Quote:
"When I learned hypnosis, I was very drawn to what I called hypnomarketing. I wanted to understand how the mind works and how I can kind of blend or make a bridge between hypnosis and marketing." — Michelle Freed [05:38]

2. Authenticity in Publicity & Client Work

[09:41-12:46]

• Michelle emphasizes uncovering and highlighting each client's individuality rather than attempting to fit them into generic, mass-appeal templates.
• Case examples of clients:
  • A “straight-shooter” Tarot reader with a New York edge who attracts similar personalities.
  • An RN-turned-reader whose healing background is foregrounded in her branding.

Quote:
"In a way, I don't believe in competition. It's more like you get the people that you need and it's a law of attraction type deal." — Michelle Freed [10:42]

3. Branding & Alignment: The Right Clients Over More Clients

[12:46-15:53]

• Dr. Katz recounts how professional web consultants nearly stripped her website of its personality, only to realize that authentic branding attracted the right-fit clients.
• Both panelists discuss the perils of accepting clients who are a poor energetic/motivational match, even for significant money.

Quote:
"It's not just, can I appeal to the most people so I can make the most money, it's really, can I appeal to people who are going to be in alignment with me so I can continue to enjoy my work?" — Dr. Debra Lynn Katz [13:33]

4. Self-Care, Boundaries, and Ethical Dilemmas

[15:53-20:26]

• The emotional sustainability of spiritual work is addressed:
  • Avoiding burnout by tuning in to one’s own limits.
  • The ethical duty to reschedule or refuse when not fully present.
• Dr. Katz discusses the challenge of disappointing clients when rescheduling, but affirms that self-care supersedes the drive for income.

Quote:
"The money... cannot be what drives your choices when it comes to what's healthy for yourself." — Dr. Debra Lynn Katz [19:46]

5. Marketing Myths, Scams, and the Realities of Building a Practice

[21:15-27:49]

• Both critique predatory “coaching certification” programs, which promise quick riches and propagate misleading expectations, highlighting multi-level marketing tactics in spiritual coaching.
• Many new practitioners are pressured to focus on money first, undermining real-world skill-building and sustainable growth.

Quote:
"People are being misled or scammed by teachers who are saying, all you have to do is this. But it is a multi level marketing scheme..." — Dr. Debra Lynn Katz [24:03]

6. Skills, Experience, and Long-Term Client Relationships

[27:49-31:44]

• Michelle and Debra stress the importance of true competence and long-term development over flashy marketing.
• Building trust and skill over years ultimately creates a loyal and cyclical client base.

Quote:
"My idea is having clients for two, three, four years where they keep coming back and we want to evolve them so they come in for the first year, second year... We're evolving them into different things." — Michelle Freed [27:49]

7. Integrity Challenges: Financial Temptation vs. Values

[31:57-35:54]

• Dr. Katz shares a personal story of turning down lucrative but unethical work opportunities (e.g., the infamous “Ms. Cleo” psychic hotline).
• Both discuss the intersection of intention, branding, and ethical decision-making.

Notable Moment:
The advice received from Krishna Das: "There's nothing spiritual about being broke and if you need money, go get a job." [34:57]

8. Intentions, Mission, and the Value of Spiritual Work

[35:54-43:35]

• Michelle describes her process of uncovering not just clients’ mission statements, but their deeper personal intentions.
• They analyze reluctance to charge for spiritual services, identifying root issues in worthiness and religious/cultural programming.

Quote:
"I get a lot of people that have a hard time asking for money. And so we have to have a little talk about that... Money is just energy. It's an energy transfer." — Michelle Freed [39:02, 41:13]

9. Charity, Service, and Payment in the Spiritual Sector

[43:35-49:48]

• Challenging the notion that spiritual work should always be free:
  • It’s not charity; it is professional, life-changing, and should be compensated.
• Comparison with mainstream religious leaders whose needs are provided for by their communities, highlighting a double standard for spiritual practitioners.

Quote:
"Whether you call it a donation or a payment, in a way it's the same thing. It's just what we're calling it and our pictures around it." — Dr. Debra Lynn Katz [47:33]

10. “Gifts” versus Skills and the Right to Charge

[49:48-54:03]

• Spiritual abilities are often seen as “gifts” that should be given away — yet culture readily accepts other gifts (athletics, music) being highly compensated.
• The conversation turns to demystifying intuitive abilities, emphasizing training and awareness over “specialness”.

Quote:
"All these things that we talk about is just part of being human, period. There's nothing a gift. Being a human is a gift in general... That's it. But we all have ability to do everything." — Michelle Freed [53:18]

11. Preventing and Detecting Fraud and Exploitation

[54:03-63:48]

• Both share red flags for spotting con artists and predatory practitioners, including those who upsell unnecessary services.
• The importance of listening to intuition about both positive and negative experiences.

Quote:
"If the person tells you that you need further services and they say that they're the only one that can help... run away as fast as you can." — Dr. Debra Lynn Katz [54:25]
"95% of the people had a gut feeling that this person wasn't someone they can trust." — Michelle Freed [55:50]

12. Synchronicities, Manifestation, and the Limits of “Signs”

[60:13-63:48]

• Exploring the double-edged sword of “synchronicities”; they can guide but also mislead, particularly in self-deceptive situations.

Quote:
"Sometimes maybe they're manifesting a synchronicity... Are people manifesting the answer or are they manifesting their belief?" — Dr. Debra Lynn Katz [62:08]

13. Sexual Exploitation and Abuse in Metaphysical Communities

[63:48-74:27]

• Frank discussion of sexual abuse and predatory behavior by some “healers”, teachers, and practitioners.
• How women’s vulnerability, tendencies to trust, and spiritual idealization are often manipulated.
• Importance of confidence, personal boundaries, and discernment, regardless of public persona or “spiritual status”.

Quote:
"I'd like to see women understand that they don't need a man to complete them... To me, that's the worst thing to say. Complete yourself and find somebody that completed themselves..." — Michelle Freed [68:13]

14. Authority, Community Trust, and Programming

[74:27-79:02]

• Both discuss how social or professional status (“trusted community member,” “doctor,” “teacher,” etc.) subtly engenders wholesale trust, which can cloud judgment and enable abuse or manipulation.
• Both advocate for healthy skepticism, personal responsibility, and continuous self-awareness.

15. Vulnerable Clients & Community Responsibility

[79:02-83:22]

• Protecting vulnerable individuals in spiritual communities, especially in online spaces—recognizing that not all involved are trustworthy.
• Combining traditional and non-traditional medical approaches and the dangers of rejecting conventional medicine outright.

16. Ethical Gatekeeping as a Publicist/Producer

[83:22-84:38]

• Michelle shares how she screens potential radio guests, refusing to provide platforms for dangerous or exploitative views (e.g., Holocaust denial, bestiality).

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On marketing with integrity:
  "I'm not making assumptions and I'm working on fulfilling their vision... It's not about their book, it's not about their class, it's about them." — Michelle Freed [37:09]
• On burnout:
  "What is healthy for you? Would you agree that a person taking care of themselves... is always going to be more important than the desire to make a certain amount of money?" — Dr. Debra Lynn Katz [17:53]
• On ethics:
  "Every moment you have to be in alignment with your own integrity... [You’ll] lose a little bit of your integrity or your soul." — Dr. Debra Lynn Katz [31:57]
• On ‘spiritual gifts’ vs. talent elsewhere:
  "Why should someone who plays basketball or football... It’s okay for them not even just to get paid a little bit, but to get paid mega millions... but then someone is using their intuitive abilities... told, well, that comes from God. You should just give that away freely." — Dr. Debra Lynn Katz [50:05]
• On the limits of “signs”:
  “Are people manifesting the answer or are they manifesting their belief?” — Dr. Debra Lynn Katz [62:08]
• On sexual predation:
  "Women are very vulnerable... if you just sit with a woman, look in her eyes and listen to her... that's all it takes." — Dr. Debra Lynn Katz [66:51]
• On the importance of discernment:
  "If something doesn't feel right, then go get a second opinion, a third opinion..." — Dr. Debra Lynn Katz [80:52]

Timestamps of Key Segments

• 03:35 – Dr. Katz introduces Michelle Freed and her background.
• 04:25 – Michelle shares her entry into metaphysical work and professional journey.
• 09:41 – Discussion on helping spiritual practitioners find their unique voice.
• 12:46 – The value of authenticity, branding, and attracting the right clients.
• 15:53 – Debunking myths about money in spiritual work.
• 21:15 – Critique of exploitative coaching programs and false promises.
• 27:49 – Sustaining client relationships over the long term.
• 31:57 – Personal stories about ethical choices and income.
• 39:02 – Discussion of internal blocks to charging and energy exchange.
• 54:03 – Cautionary advice for identifying spiritual scams.
• 63:48 – Addressing sexual predation and boundaries in spiritual fields.
• 74:27 – The power dynamic of authority and “community trust.”
• 82:04 – Integrating traditional and alternative medicine.
• 83:22 – Gatekeeping and screening as a producer/publicist.

Concluding Remarks

The episode concludes with a call for open and respectful community dialogue about these issues, inviting audience perspectives. Both speakers express a commitment to ongoing discussion and ethical growth in spiritual business.

For further conversation, the hosts reference their casual podcast,
The Side Chicks, available on YouTube.