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- [00:00]
Dr. Paul Rogers
But the footprints was the first strange event they noticed. So they painted over the footprints and the next day the footprints came back, which freaked out their friend Nicola. What was even weirder is that they came back in a different part of the kitchen. It wasn't the same footprint, it was a different footprint. So that's when it all started to go a bit weird.
- [00:22]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Keep watching. To learn more, you can now download all nine copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingallowed.org new thinking allowed is
- [00:38]
New Thinking Allowed Announcer
presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cio.ihs.edu.
- [01:05]
Dr. Paul Rogers
book 4 in the New Thinking Allowed dialogue series is Charles T. Tart, 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology, now available on Amazon. Thinking Allowed Conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove.
- [01:41]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Today we'll be exploring the Doddleston messages, which happens to be one of the most anomalous, intriguing, puzzling cases in the annals of psychical research. A case that dates back to the 1980s, but there's currently quite a bit of revived interest in the case. My guest is Dr. Paul Rogers, who is currently a freelance researcher and visiting research fellow at the University of Northampton in England, having previously been a Senior lecturer in psychology at other British universities. Dr. Rogers has published over 50 peer reviewed papers within the fields of social psychology and social cognition, including 20 papers on various aspects of anomalistic psychology, such as Paranormal Believers Proneness to Probabilistic Reasoning biases. He is currently researching the Doddleston messages. Dr. Rogers is in the United Kingdom. And now I'll switch over to the interview video. Welcome Paul. It is a pleasure to be with you and to discuss what I have to think has got to be one of the most intriguing cases in the entire history of paranormal research.
- [03:17]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Indeed it is. Yeah. It's a rabbit hole of things to go down as well when you get into it. The more you get into it, the deeper it gets. It's quite astonishing really.
- [03:27]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, to my understanding, the central person in this case, man named Ken Webster, was a schoolteacher. He wrote a book about it called the Vertical Plane, first came out in 1989, which would be appropriate for events that took place in the 1980s but recently republished.
- [03:55]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Yep, yep. So what happened was around that Covid time, Debbie, who is the main central person in the story, Ken Webster's girlfriend. Ken Webster's partner. Yep, yep. So it's really those two, the primary experience. But Debbie noticed that the original copy, the 89 copy, was on eBay for 1800 pounds and she thought people are getting ripped off, so she's going to do a second edition. Ken added another sort of chapter at the end. What have we learned in the last 35 years? Added another little chapter from the third experiment, who's called Peter Trinder, who's no longer with us. So the second edition has got a couple bit of extras and you can get it now on Amazon for about 17 pounds, which is a bit cheaper than 1800. So that's what she did it for.
- [04:46]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Yeah, because we're talking about a time gap of some 30 years nearly or more. And the main witnesses seem to maintain the same story they started out with.
- [05:01]
Dr. Paul Rogers
I first Met Debbie in 06, which is now nearly 20 years ago, at an SPR conference in Liverpool. And we got chatting and she's. We've debated this. I've lost count how many times we debated it. But over 20 years, you know, she's been pretty consistent. And around about COVID time, I was sort of like 95% of the way being convinced, but you always have to maintain a bit, come back. And then after Covid, when the second edition came out, somebody near Manchester set up a Facebook group and since then, the last five years, about up to 200 people at one point, but really it's about hardcore 35 people who are researching and the more we dig, the more we find that's convincing, that suggests it's true. So I'm sort of 99% of the way thinking this is this bizarre as it goes, we can't find any evidence to say it's not true.
- [05:59]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, you could view this as a case of time travel or communication across time, or you could view it as a poltergeist case. Let's give our viewers who may be unfamiliar with the case completely, sort of an overview of what we're talking about.
- [06:17]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Ken and Deb were living in a place called Doddleston, which is just about southwest of Chester, about five miles of Chester, near Liverpool. If you're not from England, it's not far from Liverpool, it's on the very. On the border of the England, Wales, the crossover part, because that may be a relevant factor. And they were doing their house up very, very, very small house. I mean, literally, it was a Two up, one down. It was tiny. And they had a friend stay over, she was staying for a couple of weeks and the friend noticed some footprints on the wall. Six toed, bare footed footprints and they had a laugh about it and they painted over them. And the next, I mean, there was other things beforehand, like little bits of tin cans moving around or coffee was falling around in the sink, which they just thought was each other, didn't think anything of that. But the footprints was the first strange event they noticed. So they painted over the footprints and the next day the footprints came back, which freaked out their friend Nicola. What was even weirder is that they came back in a different part of the kitchen. It wasn't the same footprint, it was a different footprint. So that's when it all started to go a bit weird. So that was the first bit of poltergeist activity. There was other stuff, like I said, there was things like cat food moved around or things balancing. But the first really weird thing was that Nicola sort of went off on her own merry way. And around about December 84, Ken, who had borrowed a BBC microcomputer from school. This is 1984, there's very, very basic computers. They were essentially word processors with no Internet, no email, no, no remote access whatsoever. He borrowed one of these computers from school and he got a message, or rather there was a message that he thought Nicola had left on the computer. So he opened it up because she was doing a bit of screenwriting and he thought, well, I'll have a little nose, see what she's writing about. And it turned out the message was a very weird, nonsensical poem, didn't really mean much, but it was addressed to Ken, Deb and Nick, the three people living in the cottage at the time. So they didn't really do much about this. They sort of had a joke about it, they accused each other of hoaxing. They thought it may have been a third party, but there was no evidence of a break in. And as I said, there was absolutely no way anybody could use remote access in those days. This is 1984. So about two months later I'm going to say I think it's the first week of March, maybe late late February. 85, they get another message, but this time it's not a poem. It reads like Early Modern English and it talks about. He says, it doesn't give a name, but he says, you're in my house. I can see bright lights, I can see furnishings and items that only the king could afford. What are you doing in My house. Get out, basically. And it's like, you know, so they're just assuming it's a joke. They're assuming somebody somehow has come onto their property, typed this into the computer. Bear in mind, this is not the same physical computer. Now he's taken the computer back and he's got another copy of it. So he keeps going back with the school and borrowing different physical computers. So there's no possibility of anybody breaking into the hardware and implanting anything. So Ken responds to this sort of early modern English message saying, okay, who are you? What year are you talking about? You know, who's the king? And about, I think a day or maybe a week later, I think it's about a week later, he gets another message saying, you know, I live on the property, blah, blah, blah, blah. The king is Henry VIII. And the message is dated March 23, 1521, which is over, what, 400 odd years in the past. So I'll sort of cut down a bit, but there's messages going backwards and forwards between, on the one hand, 1985, Ken and Deb. And on the other hand, this character who initially signed himself lw but he didn't say who he was. As the messages progress, he signs him. He signs his full name, Lucas. And then Lucas Wayneman. W A I, M A N. And so Deb and Ken by this point have had about maybe, I don't know, a dozen or so messages. They start looking in the local libraries for Lucas Wayman. They find nothing. I mean, I'm skipping bits now, but there's other communications going backwards and forward. At one point, Lucas says, I was working at one of the. I think it's Christchurch. I think it was Christchurch College, Oxford, he says. And then the next message comes along and he says, why did you not pick up the fact that there is no Christchurch College? Turns out Christchurch College was built in 1571, 50 years after he was allegedly talking. And it turns out that this character called Lucas was actually trying to trick Ken because he didn't trust who Ken was. He thought Ken was a devil or demon of some sort. Anyway, moving down a bit, it turns out that the character's name was not Lucas Wayman at all. It was Thomas Harden. He'd given a pseudonym to protect himself. So Deb and Ken started to research Thomas Harden and they found Thomas Harden. One of the things he talked about, Thomas Harden, was the fact he was a fellow at Brasenose College in Oxford, which was built at that point. It was built in about 1509, I think. It started. So they found evidence of Brasenose College having a character called Lucas Wayman.
- [12:38]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Wayman or Hartman.
- [12:41]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Thomas Harden is the student, is the real name of the pseudonym. Lucas Wayman. Yeah, it gets confusing. Yeah, there is actually a Lucas Waymond, but I'll tell you about that in a second. Who he is, we haven't found many details of him, but there is a character called Lucas Wayman. So Deb and Ken, mainly dead. Ken at this point is still teaching. He's busy. Deb does some research, you know, through the old physical journals. In the 1980s, he had to literally go to the libraries and spend all day doing it. Found evidence of Thomas Harden. He claimed to have been at Brasenose College. And we found evidence that there was a Lucas, sorry, a Thomas Harden at Brasenose College. One of the messages, he says, now by this point, Ken's work colleague Peter Trinder, who is an expert in Chaucer, which is early English, he started to read the messages and he started to do backward translations because it wasn't written in modern day English. And Peter spent hours and hours and hours backwards translating what he realized was early Modern English into modern English. And one of the messages he received said, do you know the following people? And this character, who at the time was still calling himself Lucas, but we now know to be Thomas, said, do you know these people? And names nine different people. And if you look in the Brasenose College directory, they're all in there. They were all founding fellows of Brasenose college around about 1511, 1512, going up to maybe 1530. Another thing that I'll call him Thomas when I say Lou, we'll call him Thomas. Another thing Thomas mentioned was some of the stuff he was researching as a fellow there. And he mentioned five books and we found all of them. All the five books are genuine. There was one slight inconsistency with the authorship of the first book, but that's because people don't really know who the authors were. But the character that Thomas mentioned is named in the book. It's a very obscure book. It's like 500 years old, 400 years old. So the literature he referred to seems to be genuine. The characters he referred to seems to be genuine. And as you progress forwards, more and more information comes out. So, for example, I'll give you one example. The local sheriff. Now, bear in mind, Thomas is living in Doddlestone, but in the year 15. Well, I said 1521. It turns out it was really 1546. I'll explain why that's in a minute. But around about the 1540s, there was a sheriff called Thomas Fowshurst. Thomas mentioned him. Thomas Foulshurst allegedly put him in prison for witchcraft. And we have found evidence of a Thomas Fowleshurst being sheriff of Nantwich in around the 1530s, just as Deb and Ken were told. So really, the only way you can say this is a hoax, it can't have been done by a third party electronically because there was no remote access. It wouldn't have been done by anybody breaking into the property because it was so small. There's no way anybody could have got in there without being noticed. So it has to go down to either Ken writing it alone, Ken and Debbie writing it together, or Ken, Debbie and Peter writing it together. But Peter has been on TV. There's a TV show in mid-90s called out of this World in Britain. He's been on there and he has openly said he believes us to be genuine. There is another character who I've not mentioned yet, a character was introduced later on in the day. He was a ufologist in the 80s, still going, called Gary Rowe. I'll give you more details about his input in a minute. But he has been on tv, or rather video, for the Swansea UFO Network, and he has said this is genuine. And it really boils down to, do you think Ken has made this up as a story which is about 400 pages long? I think it's three or four pages long. Who has kept the same story going for the last 40 years, whose partner Debbie, has her entire life changed? So, for example, she told me that in the 80s she bought a computer to try and understand how this was working. And it cost us £16,000, which is the size of a small house. Today's price is she's gone on to study hypnosis, she's gone on to become a computer expert, she's worked in mental health with schizophrenic people to find out if that had an impact, if that was it. You know, she didn't know. Some of her. One of her friends went on to become a power psychologist before. Before he wasn't until this case happened. And everybody that gets involved with this case who knows anything about it, and that includes the 35 people on the research group, the more you dig, the more it looks like it's genuine. And I know that sounds ridiculous, I know it does. But, you know, if this is the hoax, which I don't think it is, it's the greatest ever hoax going. But as you said at the start of this interview, if it's genuine and all the evidence is pointing to it being genuine, it's also one of the most amazing paranormal phenomena ever as well. So there's a part of the story I've not even mentioned yet.
- [18:18]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, let's step back for a moment because the messages appeared on the screen of a computer that had absolutely no Internet connection, no outside connection at all. So it would appear there and then Ken or Debbie would type messages into the computer and apparently they were able to be read by a person 400 years in the past who didn't have a computer. So how Was this individual 400 years ago or close to 500 years at this point? Not close to really 500 years ago. How are they to communicate since they don't have a computer, but they're communicating on a computer?
- [19:10]
Dr. Paul Rogers
This is one of the common mistakes people make when they talk about this case. There's two really big ones. The first one is people refer to the ghost in the machine. The character Thomas, who was living 500 years ago, was not a ghost. He was alive and kicking in his own time. Okay, you mentioned earlier, it may well be a time time slip type phenomenon or trans dimensional phenomena. So the first thing, he was definitely alive. And the second thing is he did not have a computer. What he claimed through the book is that he was sitting in his kitchen one day and he looked up and there was a character in his, in his chimney, green glowing light. Now if you look on the front cover of Debbie's second edition, there is a picture of a green glowing light which is what is called the Leams boist. Okay? Now according to Thomas, a character stepped out of his chimney and gave him this thing called the Leams boys, which is translated as a box of lights. Now for what we can make out, Thomas didn't have a keyboard like we do. He spoke to the Leimsbust and he would see words appear in three dimensions in the air like a hologram. Okay. And he found that out because one day he had a housemaid called Catherine, about 15, 14, 15 at the time. And she was singing and as she was singing, he noticed the words appear in midair. So when she left the building, he had a go. And that's how he started to communicate with Ken. Now Ken would get it through a computer like we would with a normal old fashioned keyboard word processing document. But he didn't have that. He had a floating. Well, the leaf voice may not have floated, but when he was talking into it, the words he would come out with, would float and he would see those. That's how he communicated. Now, whether it's a hologram, we don't know how it works. We don't know. This is all up in the air. I mean, you know, Thomas didn't have a clue about cars, let alone how to understand this sort of stuff. I mean, we'd. But that's how he didn't have computer. He had a Leams Boys, which is a box of lights. He referred to box of lights.
- [21:26]
Jeffrey Mishlove
And as you said, it was presented to him by a being of some sort who materialized in his chimney.
- [21:37]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Yeah, yeah, I know what it sounds like. Trust me, Jeff, I know how mad it sounds. Thomas Kleins that a character called One came out and just basically gave in this thing and then disappeared. Now that makes me wonder why was this character called One? I do wonder if that's like the first ever time traveler. In the same way James Bond is 007. He will be 001. Maybe, I don't know. But that's. That's what he. That's what Thomas claimed. That some character who may have been a hologram himself, we don't know, handed over this thing called the Leans Boys, which Thomas then communicated with 1985.
- [22:17]
Jeffrey Mishlove
I'm perfectly willing to take everything you've told me at face value and look at the implications. The implication for one would be that we live in what some people call a block universe, where the past and the future exist all at one time. So the past is still. The future would also still be there. And second of all, it implies that the potential for a being like this one to be outside of our block universe and able to interact with it in uncanny ways.
- [22:53]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Well, the reason it's called the vertical plane. I'll introduce a second character now so the readers or the audience can have a clue what I'm talking about. Around about nine, maybe six to nine months into this communication with the past came a statement from Thomas which said, you mentioned you was in 1985. I thought you were from 2109, like your friends who brought me the box of lights. Right. So we think one may or may not have been from the year 2109, but there was a character, whatever they were, whether it's a human, an alien or whatever they were, maybe Debbie thinks they might have been artificial intelligence, we don't know. But something or entity calling themselves 2109 got involved. And the way they were talking, I've always thought they sound like physicists from the future who have somehow managed to work out time travel, at least not physical time travel, but informational time travel, because they are communicating through this computer. So 2109 seem to be running the show. They refer to things like the experiment and we're not in control of the experiment, but we can see basically you have a purpose in this world and you'll be doing X, Y. And they didn't give details, but they suggested there will be important, you know, decisions to be made sort of thing. They did make a prediction in about 1985 about Fermat's last theorem being solved. Now, for people who don't know, Fermat's last theorem was a very, very complicated mathematical conundrum which started in the 1637, I think, but it was about 350 years old. And eight years after the prediction was made, it was solved eventually by somebody called Andrew Wiles, who got the Nobel Prize for mathematics for that. And the way it was described, it's going to be resolved with a brand new mathematical, not even a formula, a way of thinking about mathematics, which is completely different. It's exactly what he did. I'm not a mathematician, but I do, I did read that the proof was 100 pages long. So was that a coincidence that this, this, this arbitrary character called 21? I made a prediction. We don't know, you know, but it's looking like it was a genuine acknowledgment of what's going to happen in the future. So 2109 are getting involved and Ken doesn't like these people because he, he's got a friendship and a relationship with Thomas Harden from the past. And 2109 keep getting involved and trying to take control of it. So at one point I think Thomas suggested, and this is going to get even weirder, Thomas suggested Ken leave a pen and paper on his kitchen table, which he did. And somehow Ken received messages on bits of paper. So the computer wasn't even involved anymore. There was still a trans dimensional connection or trans temporal connection between the 1500s and 1985. And I know this sounds crazy, believe me, I know.
- [26:08]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, the whole story defies conventional logic in almost every regard. As far as I know, it seems as if there isn't a single hypothesis that perfectly matches the phenomenon, even dealing with the linguistics. But let me ask you this now, the book Originally published in 1989 contained, I gather, all these messages, not all of them.
- [26:37]
Dr. Paul Rogers
I think I've counted 178. There are about 300, over 300, but they were told by the publisher in the 80s that you have to cut it down, it's too long. So they kept about not 55, 60% of the messages in there. I have seen other messages. So when I first met Debbie, she came along and with some folders, A4 folders with loads and loads of messages in this hard, almost impossible to read handwriting from early Modern English period. How Peter Trinder managed to backward, you know, translate that, I have no idea. I couldn't read it. But I have seen about seven or eight folders of this, this handwritten material.
- [27:15]
Jeffrey Mishlove
But what about the messages that appeared on the computer screen? Were they print? Was there a printer involved?
- [27:23]
Dr. Paul Rogers
In those days printers were expensive. Not many people had them. So Ken, who borrowed this computer, would take the computer or the floppy disk or whatever, take it to school, print it off, give the hard copy print to Peter, who would then spend three hours a night backward translating it. So there are hard copy prints. I think I know where they are, but they're all pretty much printed in the book anyway. But the actual physical hard copy prints are stored away somewhere. Yeah.
- [27:50]
Jeffrey Mishlove
And now you've been studying this case for a number of years, I gather?
- [27:56]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Well, I've known, say I've known Debbie 20 years. We talk an awful lot, you know, not always about the case, but a lot about the case. And about 18 months ago I spent full time looking at some of this stuff. Yeah. So I'm sort of working on this. But not just me, the Vertical Plane Research Group. And I can give you the details of that later. There's at least I would suggest 30 people who are actively researching this and some of them are historians, some they're all different backgrounds. I'm a psychologist or a novelistic psychologist, you might say we have a power psychologist on the team. But most of the people doing it are from this history or archaeological background. So to give you an example, I was chatting to Debbie about a week ago and there is somebody who's got a PhD called, I think the PhD was called Castles of Doddleston. And her digging has verified the groundwork of a map that Thomas drew 500 years ago and sent to Kent. So although modern day maps don't look like what Thomas drew, but when you dig under the ground or use LiDAR, they overlap. So even modern day, you know, things we look at modern day doesn't map up, when you dig deeper and you do the actual research, it is consistent with what messages Ken got.
- [29:22]
Jeffrey Mishlove
What you're saying is that you would endorse the hypothesis that this was an authentic case of communication across a time gap of some 500 years.
- [29:34]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Not just backwards. It looks like 2109 were genuine. Now, we don't know if 2109 is the year. The assumption it would be now, if that's true, if that is true, then that'll be 125 years ahead of 1984. So what's it now? It's about 85 years hence. Okay. It could be a code. We don't know what the name 2109 is, but the assumption is it's them. I mentioned A minute ago, 10 minutes ago, I mentioned a coward called Gary Rowe, who. He lived in North Wales. Still does. I think he. At one point, 2109 said to Ken, there is a ufologist called Gary Rowe. Here's his telephone number, give him a ring. Okay. So they did. And Gary Rowe. Gary Rowe is on video saying this. I mean, there is a. There is a. We have a YouTube channel that I can give you details with as well. I don't think that's on there, but Gabby Rowe is there and he's sitting there basically saying, I got this strange telephone call from some bloke in, you know, in Doddleston saying this nonsense story. I don't believe he's taking the mickey out of me, but I'll go along with it, he says. So he goes along with it. He run. He basically said to Devon, ken, I want to have complete access to your house. Which he does. Which surprised him. He ran some experiments. And what happened at the end? He started to get messages himself from 2109. Not via computer, via letter, physical paper letter in an envelope left on top of the computer terminal in Ken's kitchen. Ken wasn't allowed to look at these. So Gary Rowe is getting messages left to him via 2109. Gary Rowe will never disclose because it's top secret. And he's on camera saying exactly that. So if it is a hoax, then Ken's hoaxed, Debbie's hoaxed, Peter Trinder has hoaxed. A completely stranger called Gary Rowe has hoaxed. 35 people at the research group are finding stuff out that supports this case and they've all been hoaxed. And the more we go into it, the more it looks like it's genuine.
- [31:46]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Let's go back to some of the poltergeist type phenomenon as well. You mentioned the footprint with six toes climbing side of the wall. Is there any further revelations as to what that might have been?
- [32:03]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Thomas did not use the phrase poltergeist because that wasn't invented back in the 1600s. But he referred to similar sort of phenomena going on and he was getting quite annoyed because it was waking him up at nighttime. So various poltergeist like phenomena was occurring to him. And at one point Ken did say to 2109, can you stop this? And they went, no, we can't, we don't know. I mean there was, there was a message that Ken and Deb got written on their floor in chalk. They don't think was anything to do with the trans dimensionality. They think that might have been a poltergeist activity. They got a lot of poltergeist activity. If you buy the book, there are maybe half a dozen photographs of things like, I mean, one of them is a balancing saucepan on the door frame. There's a picture of their kitchen and their front room being trashed through poltergeist activity. So again a skeptic will say, oh, they've done that for the camera. But they haven't, they hadn't, you know, the whole room was trashed. They had writing on the floor which was poltergeist like. And it's almost like this is completely separate entity. This is almost unrelated to the time dimension. We don't know, we don't know. 2109 were aware of it but they couldn't control it.
- [33:19]
Jeffrey Mishlove
And at some point the phenomena, I gather, just stopped.
- [33:24]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Yeah, I think the poltergeist activity wanes. But the final Messages were dated 23rd of March 86. Thomas said, I'm missing large chunks of the story. Thomas had to leave the house. Now, Thomas was originally living in Dodlestone on the same site. And you mentioned earlier about Block Universe, the reason the book is called the Vertical Plane. It's almost like time is like a multi story car park. Same physical space but different levels of it. So Thomas says, look, I have to leave Dudley, I've been threatened by the locals, they all think I'm a witch and somebody's offered to buy my house. So I'm leaving, I'm going back to Oxford, which is where he originally was a student. And he said, I'm going to write my book. And he made reference to staying in Doddlestone, hopefully one day, meeting Ken and Devon, crossing time. The very next day or the very same day, a message came through from 2109, same date, 23rd of March. And they said Thomas did write his book, he died shortly afterwards. So we're talking around about 1548, 1550, something like that. He left it in a secure place. It shouldn't take too long to find it in your lifetime. Well, that was 40 years ago. We haven't found it yet. They also gave an inscription of what was written on either the inside of the book or on the COVID of the book in Latin. And it reads something along the lines of, I write this book in the hope that one day my friends will find this book and our lands won't be so distant. So we're looking, we're hoping one day we find a book carbon dated 500 years ago with that sentiment on the front or in the inside cover and then wait for the skeptics to turn around and say, oh, you backward engineered that. Because if we do find it and it's carbon dated, you can't get much harder proof than that. As bizarre as it sounds, that's what we're waiting for. We haven't found it yet, but that's what we're looking for.
- [35:33]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, are there any other examples that you would think of as more evidential?
- [35:39]
Dr. Paul Rogers
You know, I've known Debbie 20 years. I think it's all genuine, but, you know, but then there are photographs of the whole house being trashed, you know, and again, Debbie, I've got Ken and Deb to write their put in writing. There's no deception on their part. So they've either blatantly lied to me and have done for 20 years, or this is genuine.
- [36:02]
Jeffrey Mishlove
I understand that Ken himself though has distanced himself, doesn't want to be involved,
- [36:09]
Dr. Paul Rogers
not at the moment, because he's still got a career. Yeah, he was a teacher at the time. He sort of left teaching, got into something else. Debbie has worked on this part time. So I met her at a conference. I've known her go to conferences at her own great expense on, for example, quantum mechanics to try and understand this. You know, she's not a physicist, she's a self taught computer expert. But she will go out and spend money to try and work out what happened. But Ken's had his, as you say,
- [36:38]
Jeffrey Mishlove
they both attest that a fraud on their part. Of course fraudsters would say that. So it's still hard to imagine how they could have created such a fraud with all the accurate information that only came out much, much later.
- [36:57]
Dr. Paul Rogers
And also I haven't mentioned this, but we mentioned earlier, the computing, the computing side of things. One of the members of our research group, I won't name him, but he's retired, he actually invented Wi Fi. All right, this is. He got into the case because he thought what a lot of old nonsense I'm going to prove it to be fake. He got into the case and he's now convinced it's genuine. Now, he invented WI fi in the mid-90s, maybe, maybe 92, 93, something like that. This is like six or seven years after this happened. And I've got him on One of my PowerPoint slides, a quote saying, basically, there's absolutely no way, no way this could have been hoaxed, because the infrastructure, the hardware, the software, the expert knowledge was not available to anybody in the 80s that owned Ken and Deb or whoever. So even. Even if the Pentagon wants to have a go, they wouldn't have been able to do it because there was no. There was no physical, you know, hardware or structure to do it. So the only way you can say this was a hoax, the only way is if Ken has made the whole lot up, and if he's made the whole lot up and it's all by sheer coincidence coming true, then that seems even more unlikely than the actual story, to be honest. You know.
- [38:11]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, I guess people have to balance. David Hume, the British Scottish philosopher, probably would say it's much more likely to be a hoax than a miracle.
- [38:23]
Dr. Paul Rogers
I didn't say it's possible, I just said it happened. And that was Ken's little quote that he stole.
- [38:29]
Jeffrey Mishlove
That's from Sir William Crookes.
- [38:31]
Dr. Paul Rogers
That's right, that's right, yeah, it was, yeah, Crookes, yeah. It was about Dee Dee whom, wasn't it, I think he was talking about?
- [38:36]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Yeah, I didn't say it was possible, I just said it happened. And that's sort of. Because what you're describing goes against what people might call the standard model today. Our version of reality doesn't allow for this sort of thing at all. But our version of reality is really a cultural artifact of sorts, based on who we are at this particular point in time. And in another 80, 90 years, for all we know, humanity will have developed a whole new version of reality.
- [39:14]
Dr. Paul Rogers
The way I think about it is if you told Queen Victoria, I can take a book and send it to Australia and it'll get there in three seconds flat, she'll think you're talking nonsense, but she would never have had a conception of a PDF, which we now do, okay, so we can send books through the Internet, you know, basically not physical matter, but information can go down the line, go through time, go through space and get to Australia in a matter of seconds. We have to think outside the box. That's the way I'm looking now. This is. This is going to be at least eight years in the future. If it is a date. We have no idea what's going to happen in the next 80 years. I mean look at, look what's happened in the last 40 with technology, you know, it's exponential. So that's the way I look at it. It's just the future we don't understand yet.
- [40:03]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well is there anything else you can add about this case that our viewers should know?
- [40:08]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Well, we are constantly researching. I mean I say we all amateurs in terms of the amount of time we have to do this but the research group, I'll give the details. If you want people to join I'm sure Clive will be happy to have loads more people signing up. We are constantly doing research. I say we're getting more and more information. Just last week there was evidence that the map that Thomas sends. I can give some more little anecdotes in a second that the Dennis told me but the map is getting more and more. It's very, very complicated map. It's a hand drawn map written circa 1546. I don't think it's in the books but I've got a copy of it on my lectures. When I give it it's really detailed and the research group have been going through that with a fine tooth comb and they've been mapping out and finding evidence the places on there were genuine. But the interesting thing about the map is the roads that were drawn no longer exist but they are coming up on LIDAR or as I said earlier, one of the PhD in Archaeology has confirmed some aspect of the map that she spent three years researching. So again is that a coincidence or did Ken have some sort of esp? I don't know, I don't think so, it just seems to have.
- [41:27]
Jeffrey Mishlove
I presume there's nothing in the messages that would indicate why of all of the possible places in the world where such trans time communication could occur, it happened at Doddleston.
- [41:42]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Well the property has had poltergeist activity both before and after Debbie moved out. I mean she's not been there for oh I'm going to say 15 years at least. You know she moved but they've kept in touch. So there was some activity nowhere near as spectacular as what Debbie and Ken got. But there's something about the location and Debbie has commented at the time she was researching there was apparently there was an earthquake around about the period and apparently where Douglaston is on the line between England where it's a bit of a fault line as well, they may be factors another Thing that Debbie looked into was geomagnetic activity. And apparently there's a high amount of that around about the time. They may be factors, they've been linked to poltergeist activity. That's different from the time travel side of things. What was I going to say? The one that really got me. I love this. I love this. So some of your viewers may have heard of the Skoal experiment.
- [42:49]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Absolutely. We've interviewed Robin Foy on this channel.
- [42:53]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Oh, right.
- [42:54]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Okay.
- [42:55]
Dr. Paul Rogers
I might have seen that actually. Yeah. A few years ago now. So one of our research group members said, read the skull report. So if you read the skull report, I don't think the official skull report mentions this. That's the one by the SPR cited for psycho research. But Robin Foy wrote a book. It's about 600 pages long. It's very, very detailed, very diary like. Right at the end there is a comment along the lot, about two or three comments across about six pages referring to trans dimensionality and the time travelers from 2109. So what the possibilities? One, Robin Foy read Ken's book, made up his entire skull experiment, and then decided to just mention 21:9 at the end of it, just for giggles. Right. By doing that, he then managed to convince three professors and numerous other witnesses that the skull thing was a fox. Because, you know, okay.
- [43:59]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Or.
- [44:01]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Yeah. So he read Ken's book and just nicked the phrase 21 or it's genuine. And that 2109 got involved somehow with the skull thing as well. Now, the second edition only has this information. There's an extra couple of chapters in the second edition. There was somebody in. I think it was Luxembourg and somebody else in Germany who also were communicated. One by 2109, one by 2105. And one of those, I think it was their name. Fish Fishburn, I think their name was. Can't pronounce it. But they contacted ken in about 85. 86. Sorry, no, 95, 96, about 10 years after their case. And they were saying, we've had similar phenomena.
- [44:45]
Jeffrey Mishlove
This would be the people working with what they call instrumental trans communication. Voices coming across computers and telephones, televisions that are even unplugged.
- [44:58]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Yep, yep. Yeah. I mean, Debbie suggested that her case. I said, yours must be one of the first cases of itc. There was one more before hers, she thinks, but hers was pretty much, if not the first, then certainly the first two or three computer mediated ITC examples.
- [45:16]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Yeah, because Konstantin Raudev wrote a book about this. As I Recall that came out in the 1970s.
- [45:25]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Yeah, he was mainly radio, wasn't he? Breakthrough, was it called?
- [45:29]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Yes, Breakthrough, yeah. So what you're suggesting there could be a link between some of these very obscure and anomalous phenomena?
- [45:42]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Well, on the surface of it, there should be no connection between Skull. So for people in America who don't know where Skull is, Skol is on the east side of England. It's in the county of Norfolk, probably, I don't know, 20 or 30 miles away from Norwich, I'm guessing. I don't know. But where, where Dodlestone is, it's the other side of the country, it's about two to 300 miles away. This skoll experiment took place between 93 and 98. Debbie's case was between 84 and 86. So there's no real time connection and yet both of them refer to 2109, you know. So is it a coincidence or is this a genuine phenomena? I mean, as I say, you know, I've spoken to Debbie, I've lost count how many times about this. We speak a lot about this and, you know, I'm always getting bits more of information, a bit more tidbits. And if she was hoaxing, it's a big if. But if she was hoaxing, she's the world's greatest actress and I don't think she is. I don't think she is hoaxing.
- [46:44]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, since you've known her for 20 years, you would be in a good position to judge.
- [46:50]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've had so many. I mean, I think of it this way, if I was, if I was a journalist and I managed to get an afternoon to interview Debbie, which she doesn't do, she won't do interviews. I mean, she did one or two in the late 80s and I think there was. There's a newspaper interview she gave and there's a little bit on Radio 4.
- [47:09]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Bixie.
- [47:10]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Radio 4 is about half an hour of her or 15 minutes of her left. If you listen to that, for example, on the. The YouTube channel we set up, there is an audio clip of Deb And Ken in 19, I'm going to say 1989, I think it is. And they're talking about it in the same way they might talk about their cousin or their long lost brother. You know, it's genuine the way they Talk. There's a TV show called out of this World, which is 96. They were interviewed on there. When you listen to the way they talk, that talking as if it happened because to them it happened. It actually happened. And yet it sounds like absolute nonsense. I know it does. You know, you either believe it or you don't. And I've sort of experienced some of this sort of backlash from people I've debated it with. You know, they come up with their ideas why it's a hoax, but they haven't got any evidence for it being a hoax. And all the evidence points to it being genuine, as bizarre as it sounds.
- [48:08]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, Paul Rogers, this has been a fascinating excursion into one of the most mysterious cases. I think it's very significant that you're aligning yourself with a group of some 30 people who are digging into it more deeply and coming up with new findings that verify the original claims.
- [48:31]
Dr. Paul Rogers
We're looking for the book. We were told it's in a safe place. Now, that's ambiguous and of course, we can't say too much in case people decide they turn up and knock on people's doors, but we have ideas where it might be. But if it was ever found, that would be. I know, I know. Debunkers will still say it's all a hoax. It's been carbon dated. It's a hoax. It's got the same transcript on there. It's a hoax. I know, I know. Nobody's certain. People will never believe.
- [49:02]
Jeffrey Mishlove
They will never believe it. People will tell you. I won't believe it even if it's true.
- [49:07]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Yeah, exactly. I've seen it, but I believe it. Yeah, yeah. There you go.
- [49:12]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Thank you so much for being with me today.
- [49:15]
Dr. Paul Rogers
I can't believe an hour's gone so quickly. I mean, I've only scratched the surface. This is. People want to buy the book. I am plugging it. Yes, but just. It's just the more you get into it, the bigger the rabbit holes go, really do.
- [49:30]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, you know, we have done another interview earlier with Simon Duan, who I'm pretty sure you know, a British computer scientist who has his own theory about Platonic computation. He feels that this case can be explained in terms of his theory.
- [49:50]
Dr. Paul Rogers
I'm not entirely sure what Platonic computation is because I'm a psychology, not a physicist or mathematician, so that's beyond me, but maybe I'll get around there one day.
- [50:00]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Yeah, we've covered it pretty extensively on this channel because there are many different theorists who have what we call simulation hypotheses that are entirely physical. Universe is actually a projection from a. You could say a computer that is located outside of time and space as we know it.
- [50:24]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Right, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was chatting to Ken, what, two days ago about the informational model. You know, he's got an idea which is, you know, and it reminded me of the Noosphere, which is what David Vernon wrote about in his book on power psychology. And it maps into stuff like Akashic record argument. And when you think about it, there's an overlap between all these different models. They're just given different names. And so I think it's informational based. I certainly think that if it is time travel, it'll be information, it won't be physical matter, it'll be time. It'll be like we do with PDFs sort of thing. That's the way I'm looking at it. But yeah, again, it's beyond us at the moment, but maybe.
- [51:05]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Well, once again, thank you for being with me, Paul.
- [51:08]
Dr. Paul Rogers
No problem, no problem. Happy to come back again if we find anything else out.
- [51:12]
Jeffrey Mishlove
I would be delighted to stay in touch with you because this is an ongoing case. New information seems to be coming out month by month, year by year. So I'm optimistic we'll have more to say about it in the future.
- [51:28]
Dr. Paul Rogers
If we find the book, I'll let you know.
- [51:29]
Jeffrey Mishlove
Okay.
- [51:30]
Dr. Paul Rogers
Yeah, yeah.
- [51:32]
Jeffrey Mishlove
For those of you watching or listening, thank you for being with us because you are the reason that we are here.
- [52:03]
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Jeffrey Mishlove
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