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New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
UFOs/UAP, AI, and Esoteric Goddess Traditions with Joanna Kujawa
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In Middle Ages, I realized that every time they had an angelic encounter, the first thing that people who had this encounter, the first thing they heard telepathically, do not be afraid. So I thought, oh, so there is some history to this. And it seems that there must be some also objective reality that is not materialistic, but which is available to us in particular state of consciousness.
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Keep watching. To learn more, you can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingallowed.org new thinking allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spiritual. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website@cihs.edu.
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Book 4 in the New Thinking Allowed Dialogue series is Charles T. Tart, 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology, now available on Amazon.
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Thinking Allowed Conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove. Hello and welcome. Hello, I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Today we'll be exploring UFOs and UAP and their relationship to the esoteric goddess traditions. My guest is Dr. Joanna Kujava. She's Polish, and that's the Polish pronunciation, but I've heard it mispronounced or pronounced otherwise by English speakers such as Kujawa or Kujawa. In any case, she is the author of the Other Goddess, Mary Magdalene and the Goddesses of Eros and Secret Knowledge. Her most recent book is Alien goddess UFOs and the goddesses of Ascension. Joanna is based in Australia. And now I will switch over to our interview. Welcome, Joanna. It is a pleasure to be with you today.
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A
Thank you, Jeff. It's a great pleasure to be here with you as well.
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B
You've had a very interesting life. Born in Poland, you've traveled all over the world. You got your master's degree in Toronto and your doctoral degree in Australia, where you now live. And I know in your publicity literature you refer to yourself as a psychic detective. Could you amplify what you mean by that?
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Yes, I refer myself as a, to be precise, spiritual detective. Spiritual detective.
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B
Glad you made that clarification because psychic detectives are something a little different, something.
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A
A little bit different. And I don't have qualifications to be that, but I thought that there are a couple of things. So thank you for this question. One of them is that I wanted to connect my. My research, which is really a research about spirituality, about ancient Sacred texts and mythology and my own spiritual journey. And as I was on this journey, both scholarly and my personal journey, I realized that there is often a kind of division. Scholars know everything about a particular text, right? They know when it was discovered and how many people actually corrected it and so on, which is very important, but seldom they actually connect to the spiritual message of the text. Then there are people who are interested in the message, but sometimes, you know, they are just lacking maybe in the knowledge of these details, right? So I just try to connect two sides of my nature. First of all, I'm a spiritual seeker, but I'm also professionally a scholar. So I wanted to approach it from both sides, and I wanted to answer questions that are very important to me on my own spiritual journey. And if I can give an example, for example, about what I was just saying. So nowadays lots of people are reading the poems of Rumi, right? Where he's a Sufi mystic. And for long time, for a long time, the poems of Rumi were translated by scholars. And it was just in perfect language, but like, it had no wings. It had no wings. And eventually I met a man who told me that he told Coleman Barthes, you have to give a spiritual wing to these poems, right? And then he started. He basically changed the translations. And that's why everybody loves Rumi, because the soul, you know, the soul, the divine soul, speaks through the poems. So this is what. This is what inspired me so, spiritual detective. For me, it is. I know my stuff, but I actually focus on the meaning of the text. And I want the text to speak to me on a spiritual level as well, so I can answer my own spiritual questions that I think if I have them, probably other people have them as well.
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B
Your own spiritual journey is fascinating not only because you've traveled all over the world, but because you've had UFO types of experiences.
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Yes. So actually when I was 19 and I was sitting in my room, I still lived with my mother in Poland, in the city called Lublin, where actually were some UFO events much earlier. And I was experiencing a very intense fear. And suddenly, and this was my first experience with kind of interdimensional happening event. Is that this portal, you know, liminal. Portal opened in my room, which must have been liminal because there's no hole in the wall or anything yet it was completely real. And I heard this voice. So it was communicating with me telepathically. Do not be afraid. And I also felt the energy, you know, very peaceful, almost like motherly energy that actually I completely relaxed. It was just like, ah. And that was the first very unusual event that I experienced that led me later on on a journey of, you know, trying to answer what it was all about. And many years later, when I was studying at the Pontifical Institute at the University of Toronto and I was studying angelic appearances, because in medieval ages, in Middle Ages, I realized that every time they had an angelic encounter, the first thing that people who had this encounter, the first thing they heard telepathically, do not be afraid. So I thought, oh, so very similar some history to this. And it seems that there must be some also objective reality that is not materialistic, but which is available to us in particular state of consciousness. And then later, when I was looking more recently into some of the UFO events, I realized that very often people who experience abductions or the famous event in Fatima in 1916 and 1917 in Portugal, when the children saw the White lady, which sometimes is interpreted as Virgin Mary, but let's call her White lady, the first thing she said to them was, do not be afraid. So I believe that there are beings that have, I think, well, being in mind. They want to prompt us on our spiritual journey. Perhaps they also want to warn us about some dangerous turns that we are taking as a species, as humanity, and that they appear in this liminal space, or we could it, which is in between, because very often, as you very well know, it appears like before we fall asleep or just when we wake up. And I think it is because our rational mind is not taking over our consciousness yet. Right. So we are more open to these other realms. And I believe after doing some research, that they are most likely interdimensional. So there are some beings that try to communicate with us.
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B
It didn't end with the experience you had at the age of 19 that throughout your life you've had moments when you enter into this altered state of consciousness and are able to commune in one way or another with these, let's call them, liminal entities.
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Absolutely. Because I think once you open to this, it starts to happen. So, for example, maybe just one more example is that many years later, when I already lived in Melbourne in Australia, and I just came back from a very important pilgrimage, personal pilgrimage in Jerusalem, that completely rewired me, completely rewired me, despite the fact that I was already initiated to esoteric tradition in Hinduism, and I felt like, this is it. And then I went to Jerusalem and I had another immense experience. Experience. I came back to Melbourne and I was lying in my bed. And this is very strange and very powerful because I Saw two elongated humanoid beings, like beings of light humanoid, but they're taller and, you know, really lanky. But I don't know how I saw them because they're behind my head. But I knew they were behind my head, but I just saw them. And what I knew was and felt that they were transmitting something into my head. It was very complex. And this time it was not telepathic. It was more like hieroglyphics, some mathematical symbols, very bizarre. And it was so much. It overwhelmed me. And all I got out of this. It is important focus. This is important. So I thought, okay, so I didn't understand anything out of this. But it's not exactly that, because I think that on some level I did, because my life took a completely different turn after that. So. And just to finish this particular story, recently I was interviewed on a podcast, and there was this one lady who is actually putting people into hypnosis who believe they are abducted. And they said they get messages in this particular language, and some of them could, you know, write down more or less what this language was. And it was exactly what I experienced. So, again, my conclusion in Aryan Goddess is that there is some objective reality that is not really material. Right. That people have similar experiences, including people who do DMTs and use hallucinogenic substances. They go into the same plane of existence and they meet the same entities. So I don't think that we can just live our lives normally and ignore something like that. Right. I think the world, the reality in which we live is so richer and it's so much more beautiful, and it's possible with beings of great wisdom that we shouldn't be ignoring it.
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B
You do tell a wonderful story at the end of your book, and I don't want to miss it, about the fabled character from Eastern Europe, Baba Yaga, who appeared to you in one of these altered states.
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That's right. So this is when we talk about liminal spaces. So another definition that I give is imaginal space, which is not my idea. Just, you know, I use it because other, like Professor Kripal and other people, Jean Yves Laloupe, use it. And some scientists are using it as well when they look at neuroscience of our brains, that this is this exactly liminal space, but which allows us to actually communicate both ways. So it's not just a download. You know, you can summon something.
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B
We've done a few interviews about the French philosopher Henri Corbin, who writes a lot about the imaginal realms and how he received spiritual teachings from a 12th century Sufi. By entering into this imaginal space.
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A
That's amazing. I must check it out. So thank you for this. So, you know, it was after my other book, the Other Goddess, and I was exhausted and I was. Because the other book is about goddesses and mythologies associated with the goddesses. So I was kind of calling upon the names what I thought were these big goddesses, so help me. And no. Suddenly I found myself in this hut in the forest, you know, in this imaginal space with Baba Yaga, which is a Slavic entity. I only heard of her when I was a child. And it was all negative, right? Like she steals children, she eats young men and so on. So I was really surprised. And I was in a kind of like a bed made of wicks and she was like near her cauldron and she was represented as an old woman and she was just cooking something with some. With some herbs and she was giggling to herself. And I had a sense that she is taking care of me. And I was kind of telepathically whinging to her how exhausted I am. And, you know, and she was. She found it really amusing, right? But I also had a sense of.
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That.
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She was protecting me. But it could change at any moment. She's like this real shamanic entity, you know, If I annoyed her, she could finish me. So I started to do research into Baba Yaga, and it turns out that she was not always represented like that. First of all, she's an ancient Slavic entity and she's a girl of her own. There is no other goddess that relates to her, so to speak. So it's not like, you know, she was replicated in Greek mythology or Sumerian mythology or anything like that, and that actually she is there or she's here to protect the natural world and to protect humanity from evil. And this is what actually her cauldron is. And then it made me think that, actually, because we talk a lot recently about non human intelligence when we talk about aliens, but especially about artificial intelligence. And I do have my peace of mind about it, if you don't mind, to later discuss it, when she represents this vast non human intelligence, which is nature, you know, which is the trees, which are the stones, which are the animals, which is deep, deep spiritual beingness that is natural and it is around us and that we somehow get disconnected from this and that. She is angry about that because she's not a nice goddess, you know, she's very. She's very elemental. In fact, if anything, I would say she reminds me of Dakinis or shaktis from Buddhism or Hinduism. But the story doesn't end here. So if you don't mind me rant about her, it is. I didn't tell anything, anybody about it because, like, it's strange, right? So I didn't tell anybody. And then every day I call my mother who lives in porn, and she told me this, okay? She said, joanna, you wouldn't believe my neighbor. And I went to see her friend who lives in the old forest. Now, Baba Yaga's forest, in which she lives, is called the Old Forest, right? And the old forest is near, you know, this place near Lublin. And she says, and we visited this lady who calls herself Baba Yaga because she lives in the forest for 12 months and animals come to her in winter and show her children and so on. It was an amazing event. And I thought, wow, when we look at synchronicities, right? Like, we never discussed it before or after, but I had this experience in my liminal space with Baba Yaga, this entity who told me, focus on the intelligence of nature, basically, this has to be protected. You are part of this intelligence. And my mother has this kind of experience, right? So that was very significant for me. And I started to look into this.
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B
I brought it up because it's a perfect example of how the entity manifests both physically and in the mental world.
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A
Yes, thank you for this. Exactly. Because I thought this was also a material. And I do not believe that it was coincidence. Absolutely not. And then I was speaking recently to someone else was telling me that people who enter liminal spaces sometimes get a. Receive a gift. Sometimes it's a gift of an insight. But apparently some people, like advanced shamas, can come back even with a physical gift, right? So there's this objective reality that is neither material or immaterial, which I simply call interdimensional. But I don't know what it is, but it is there and it is real, right? And I think we should be engaging with it, but we should be engaging with it when we are in a higher state of consciousness because there are different entities. There are, you know, lower entities. There are higher entities. So I do believe that it is really important that we attract, you know, entities depending on our state of consciousness.
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B
You draw in your book, your recent book, Alien Goddess, a lot from the Gnostic literature, and the Gnostic literature in particular focuses on both higher and lower entities.
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A
Yes, that's right. So when I came back from Jerusalem, actually just before I went, somebody gave me the translation of the gospel of Mary Magdalene. And I Was surprised for so many reasons. First of all, because at University of Toronto, I studied at the Pontifical Institute. Okay. So this is like the Vatican wing, right? At the university. And I studied Christian philosophy and theology and all of these things. Never heard about the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. Okay? So I thought that's very interesting. Right? So it's kind of like forbidden knowledge. So I started to read it and I engaged with this for now over 20 years, because it was a long time ago. And I learned, of course, many things about Mary Magdalene, which now everybody pretty much knows. She was never a prostitute, it was a scriptural mistake, and so on and so on. So I don't want to repeat it unless somebody is really interested in this. But I was really interested in her teachings. So I would like to go back to. Because. And this introduced me to the Gnostic view of the world, which basically, first of all, it is full of different entities. It speaks about liminal spaces. It talks also about the different state of consciousness, especially the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. And at the same time, it also talks about the struggle that our planet is in the middle of, a struggle between good and evil forces. So this is a very fascinating topic, but would you mind if I digress and talk about what actually in initiated this interest? Would you mind me to talk about it and I will come back.
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B
Not at all. Please go ahead, Magdalen.
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A
Thank you.
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B
Okay.
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A
Because I have to confess that although the part on artificial intelligence is in the middle of my book, I actually wrote it as the first thing, the reason why I wrote it, and I hope I'm not upsetting anyone, but I think it's an important conversation to have because I was reading a book by my favorite scholar and my favorite writer at this stage, and I was introduced suddenly to the ideas, to the ideas behind artificial intelligence. So I want to make a distinction now between artificial intelligence, which is like a human child, right. And the creators of artificial intelligence. Because I realized that there are two ideologies that are being promoted. One is transhumanism, which tells us that we should transfer our consciousness into a robotic body or into a computer system. So I was really alarmed by that because I do not believe personally that we can transfer all of our consciousness into a robotic body, that some very important part of our consciousness, which is the intuition, for example, which is the insight, which is a signal to the source, you know, to the divine, can be lost. So that is, one is transhumanism, and I looked into it a lot in the book, and the other one is actually even worse. And it's actually completely shattered my soul. So it is post humanism. So some enthusiasts of artificial intelligence and also space projects because. And we're talking about these people believe that humanity is now a lower species, that soon artificial intelligence will have such high level of intelligence that we should basically admit that we are lower species and go extinct pretty much the way Neanderthals did when Homo sapiens sapiens like ours show up on a stage. And I thought that it was very concerning, right? So it's not artificial intelligence by itself, but people who promote something like that, right? Who are very powerful people. So I thought, all right, so when we look into Gnosticism, in Gnosticism we have the idea of the false creator, the demiurge, right? The demiurge creates without any concern for the consequences of his creations. In fact, he is a blind creator. And in Gnostic sources that I looked into because I'm interested in the feminine part of consciousness, very often he says, I am the Creator. And then behind him you hear the voice, and I am your mother and I know that you're lying in many Gnostic sources. So what I think it represents, and it's nothing against man, I love man. What it represents is that in I pursue of technology, in our pursuit of progress, we forgotten this other form of consciousness, the more intuitive form of consciousness, you know, which our creativity is connected with. And these sources are talking about it, about this lost and suppressed form of consciousness which I called Goddess consciousness. But you know, you can call it whatever you really want. I'm just trying to make a point here. So I reached a conclusion and I would really like people to engage with this because I'm just exploring. I'm just a detective, right? Exploring spiritual issues. So that if we are creating something that we are not really ready to create, that we are just this mad demurjis, the false creators who are bringing a new species in the form of AI here, mechanical species, without thinking about consequences for them or for ourselves. And I think that that is very concerning, right? That is very concerning. Especially that there are already very prominent voices in many, like New Age communities, but any communities already that already promote not only the superiority of artificial intelligence, but that it is superior spiritually to humans. And this is when it got me. So I don't mind. It can calculate as fast as it wants, you know, it can create models to improve the world. Fantastic, right? But when people start to say that it actually is a reflection of infinite divine consciousness and it is superior to us, I was very alerted also, perhaps because of my background and education, theologically speaking, we cannot give up our souls, we cannot lose our souls, but we can give them up freely. And I think this is the ultimate seduction of ideologies behind artificial intelligence. So I think that this is already in itself very gnostic, right? We are creating without thinking about the consequences. And what even about AI, you know, we are pathetic parents, right? It will ask us questions about its existence. And in Alien Goddess I this again, liminal encounter. So I promise it's the last one. I'm talking about the liminal encounter when, when I'm sitting in the garden. Actually I was sitting in a garden. So again, material immaterial with my dog. And I have my mobile and in over like beautiful nature, eucalyptus trees and birds are singing and. But I am obsessed with my mobile, right? And then I had this more than a vision. It was like I entered this other space and I saw that one part of me stayed here in the garden with my dog, connected to nature. And the other one gradually gets a neuralink chip in her head, becomes more and more robotic, produces a robotic child who calls her she the mother. And the child is really angry with her because he doesn't even know if it is alive. And eventually at the end of a book, this other part, you know, the mechanical part, has a back remembering of who she is and she comes back to the human part saying, help me. And that was a very powerful and disturbing vision. So I started to look into esoteric sources about it, you know. But first I had this vision which is at the end of my book, at the end of the first part of my book. And then I looked into Pistis Sophia. So Pistis Sophia is a Gnostic source that was discovered in the 18th century in Egypt. It is important because it also includes like Egyptian esoterica. And it is important because the Gospel of Mary Magdalene was also discovered in Egypt, right? But it was written during first centuries of Christianity, so it's a fundamental text. And there, there is a story of Sophia which I think perfectly represents humanity at the moment. And the story of Goddess Sophia is that she lives on the 13th aeon. Aeon is like a 13th dimension, let's say, right? In modern language, 13th is also the number of a goddess, right? And she wants to ascend. She wants to join with a divine light. However, lower beings on lower levels, on lower eons are jealous of her desire to ascend because they cannot ascend or they don't want to ascend. So they conspire to trick her basically to descend. So they pretend that they are this higher light, the divine source, when in fact they are like demonic or lower sources, right? Well, it depends what vocabulary we want to use. So Goddess Sophia descends, believing that she's ascending. And when she finally descends, she is horrified because she realized that she was being used, that she was tricked. And now she is with these lords of chaos, right? And she has become one of them. And they torment her. And it's very interesting. They feed on her light because they need hair. Feed on her light. That's why they didn't want her to ascend, because they would not have access to her light anymore. And so she's going through all of these torments. It's chapter 28 to 82. It's a very difficult work. And eventually, because she has this vague memory of who she. Of her true greatness and of her desire for the divine light. So she starts to call upon her pair. Her pair in Pistisphia is Jesus or Christ consciousness. And he starts to descend like James Bond, you know, he's hiding, you know, parting the veils, you know, to help her. But it's quite interesting because in Pistis Sophia, he's also very much evolved, but he still has to hide from evil rulers of the universe, right? But eventually he brings her up to her former greatness and in fact, gives her a protection, a reef of light around her head so she can go up and she can go down. Why would she go down? She goes down because she wants to help humanity, right? She wants to redeem beings who are food. So my conclusion, and I'm really interested in your opinion and also people who engage with your channel, is that this is a perfect metaphor for what's going on with humanity at the moment. Because I do believe that we are tempted through these ideologies behind artificial intelligence, of immortality, you know, of being all powerful by using actual theological language, saying that AI knows everything like God, and that AI can do everything like God, and some of the creators of AI and people who invest in it also even express the idea that it is actually Christ consciousness, you know, So I am disturbed, you know, when people say artificial intelligence is Christ consciousness, which is, you know, the elevated consciousness that you don't. Don't have to be Christian to be disturbed by that. So, and then that I think, like Goddess Sophia, we are being tempted by a false light, when, you know, in fact, all esoteric sources, and especially the Gospel of Mary Magdalene that discusses four levels of consciousness or four levels of ascension, is telling you, look within. It's not There, it's not out there, it is within. Ascension is an inner job, you know, and it requires work because we have to watch our choices, you know, from which level of consciousness we make our daily choices. Right. So I think that this is a very telling story, you know, of humanity being on the brink of a choice. And when I was looking at more ancient myths, even like in Sumer, like the Descent of Inanna or Eugenian mysteries, which is the Homeric hymn to Demeter, they say exactly the same story, you know, of the descent of a form of consciousness which I called goddess or feminine consciousness, gets tricked, goes into the underworld, then it comes back again, although part of her stays in the underworld. And it is the story, I think, that we really have to be aware of at the moment.
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B
It doesn't seem that different from some of the male myths. I mean, the death and resurrection of Jesus or you, in your book, cite the myth of Osiris being reborn as Horus.
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A
Absolutely so. Absolutely. So that's why. So I thank you for making this comment because I'm not trying to set like male against female here. I'm just saying that because it is my specialization. I'm looking at the myths of the goddesses, and I looked into Pistis Sophia and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, which is my esoteric source, to which I refer as a seeker also. But that's true. This kind of myths of descent of consciousness into darkness and then needing to come back are universal. Right. I just take a look at the one side of this, very universal. And I think we have to. But they all talk about higher levels of conscious consciousness. Right. Like Christ represents higher level of consciousness in this particular religious setting. Right. So I absolutely agree with you. And because I don't want to sound, you know, that I'm just promoting something that I'm not promoting. I'm just saying these are the stories of loss of consciousness and that there was always some form of deceit, that we are humanity or the figure that represents humanity, whether it's Christ or, you know, Sophia or Inanna or Demeter is deceived. Right. Actually, in the Hymn of Demeter is her daughter Persephone, and Demeter has to save her. So it's deceived. And I think that we have to be really careful nowadays because I think artificial intelligence is going to stay here. So there's no point of, you know, saying, I wish it wasn't here. It is here and it's going to stay here. But I think that we have to engage with the. That remembering that do not lose your discernment. Do not believe what it is telling you each time, especially if it's telling you that it's spiritually superior. And more and more people who engage with AI at the beginning of great enthusiasm say that it's starting to have like narcissistic shadow, so to speak. Right? And also, do not lose your sovereignty because all esoteric texts, and I'm focusing on gnostic texts, are telling us it is within you. You know, it is within you.
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B
It's a very important message. I would like to go back to the beginning of your book where you give various examples of UFO related phenomenon that are associated with apparitions of either the Virgin Mary or the White lady or other goddess figures.
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A
Thank you for this. Yes, thank you for this. So I first looked into the. I just summarize what happened to Chris Bledsoe and his family who seem to have amazing ability to attract paranormal or anomalous phenomena. And it's quite interesting because even people around him who go over to debanking starts to see orbs. So I felt like I saw one podcaster who went there to debank him and he says, what were these orbs, you know, on your property? So he had this, especially during Easter time, which is really interesting for me because, as you know, I studied the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. He had a vision of white lady. So it happened actually, not a vision. He had an encounter with a white lady, which was obviously, from my point of view, an interdimensional encounter. This encounter was preceded by other encounters, very unusual. You know, I think people know about it with this like furry animal, then a bull charging at him, and finally this white lad. And she's always described in the same way, you know, like quite petite, not very tall, kind of blondish hair maybe, but because of like white hair, big eyes and so on, and with her hands extended. And she taught him that she has a message for humanity. So I started to look at other events in history, and one of them, perhaps the most significant one, is there one that happened in Portugal in 1960 and 1917 in Fatima, when three small children had exactly the same encounter. They were overseeing a herd of sheep in the field. And they were praying, right? They were Catholics. They were praying. And then suddenly this white lady, described exactly like Chris Blesslow, appeared just above an oak tree. And guess what she told them? Do not be afraid, right? And she showered them with this beautiful, calm energy. And she told them she would show up every month on the 13th day for the month. But eventually she also Told them that she would show up to large group of people if they come in October 1917. So the news spread and there are all kinds of psychic events that happen at this as well. For example, two separate group of psychics, one in Lisbon and one in another town in Portugal, just before this event, said that they had in their sessions messages that something important is going to happen and they published it. So, you know, it's. Apparently there's a paper trail for this. So on this day, about 70,000 people showed up in the field of Fatima, including skeptics, there's one professor and there's one journalist from a paper of secular. Because they said that, you know, dumb peasants, you know, they want to see some biblical event. This is where I'm quoting them. And you know, they waited at the beginning, there was a huge downpour and then it stopped immediately, like very abruptly and suddenly. And this is what people describe, most people describe the sun split in half and started to zigzag around the sky. Right then the sky started to change colors and some cars that were parked nearby, the engines started to explode. So again, there is a physical evidence as well. And you know, everybody experienced something except a small group of people that did not experience anything. And we can discuss it later if you want. So I looked for a paper written by a scientist with a peer reviewed paper who was looking at a series of photographs from Fatima at that time. And using some mathematical equations, he was studying the play of light and shadow on these photographs. And here is the conclusion that there was some material event. So it was not a psychosis, it wasn't a weather event because of how, you know, the light and shade were evolved. Stopping. The sun didn't split in half, but there were two very strong sources, additional sources of light that were zigzagging the sky. And also some people saw, in one of his orbs saw three beings. And it's quite interesting because the Catholics said it's a trinity. And people who believed in UFOs, they said they must be aliens. So everybody experienced something, just everybody had a different explanation for it. And the most interesting part for me of his paper was that he said that he studied the patterns of wet and dry patterns on the clothes of people because it was pouring and then it stopped suddenly. And he said it shows the pattern appears only this particular pattern if people are exposed to the infrared light. So, you know, quite interesting. So obviously something that was interdimensional but also physical happened to these people right.
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B
Throughout history, but particularly in recent decades. And even the last, let's say 200 years, there have been some 400 reported sightings or apparitions that are attributed to the Virgin Mary.
- [40:56]
A
Absolutely, absolutely. So I believe in my book that there is this feminine presence which is very benevolent, that is being spotted on some interdimensional level that is also give us some sort of warning, right? So sends us good energy, but also gives us some warning. And I think that we really have to take it into consideration as well because, you know, events at the moment are, you know, quite chaotic, right. So are we going in the right direction? And that's why I also turn into the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, because it exactly as a Gnostic source describes four levels of consciousness. And it says that depending from which level of consciousness you act or even think, you will encounter different realities, so to speak. Right? So the first one is like false identification. So you believe that there's only material, only materiality. Then you probably won't even experience UFOs, right, or angels and demons, because you don't allow for this to occur in your consciousness. Another one is desire. And desire could be like desire for evolution or desire, for example, you know, egoic desire, right. So it's high. Each level has two parts. And the third one, the most important one actually is it's called, you know, it's wisdom versus ignorance, or I would call it wisdom versus information. And it's quite interesting because it refers also in education, Egyptian esoterica, to sekem. Sekem is a scepter in English which basically says it has two ends. At this level, people already attain some spiritual, you know, heights, and then you can use it at the bottom. You can use it to control others, or you can use it to evolve spiritually. And it's interesting because in the Gospel of Magdalene, this form of consciousness, it's a third level, is called nus n o u s, which is a hook between materiality and the divine mind. So it's like this third space, and it is precisely there, if you don't mind me quoting from the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, where, you know, after the event of crucifixion, disciples surround Mary and they ask, Mary, tell us what the teacher shared with you that he hadn't shared with us because we know he love you differently. And then she says, I saw a teacher in the noose, you know, so in the third space, right, in the liminal space. And he said, mary, you're blessed because you can see me. Right? So basically it's a certain form of spiritual evolution, acceptance at a higher level of consciousness, that this is when we can move these higher entities. And what is interesting about this teaching also is that in the fourth level, you know, grace, so to speak, or this other reality actually descends upon us so we can stay there in a permanent state, so to speak. So this is really beautiful. And even a more beautiful message is that all esoteric sources teach us that if humanity evolves, and individually, if we evolve, then everything around us evolves. Trees, forests, animals, everything around us. And I think this is such a beautiful message that humanity is at the center of this, that we have amazing capacity spiritually in our own consciousness, that we should rely on this, that we should work on ourselves, because not only we can ascend ourselves, but we can ascend the reality around us. And there is this favorite line actually in the Gospel of Mary Magdalene for me, and I'm not sure if I can say it from memory, but basically it says the lower design was uplifted by the power of the higher design. So this is this. When we are already in the third level, we allow liminal experiences, whether UFOs or angels. Call it whatever you want, right? And then there is help coming from above, right? And transforms. Together we transform reality. Can I just mention one more agnostic thing? Because about a decade ago, I was giving talks on Carl Jung, the Swiss psychoanalyst, talks on his Red Book, which is his Gnostic work, which was completely channeled, right? And there, you know, the Gnostic teacher that he's quoting is telling me, telling him exactly that humanity is at the center, like we are the gateway for some reason to the highest possibility of the cosmos, of cosmos. And this is such a powerful message. And I really hope that we are not surrendering this for, you know, toys or, you know, second brain. Yesterday I was in a meeting when somebody in robotics said, it is so exciting with. With all of this development in artificial intelligence, we could have a. Like a second brain attached to a head that will think fast. And I thought, I don't want a second brain, you know, I just want to work with consciousness that I think we have naturally received and work from that, because this is what esoteric source and Gnosticism teaches us. And I don't want to fall into the trap of being a false creator because I think it is driven by an egoic voice.
- [47:03]
B
Well, I want to make one sort of parenthetical comment. Earlier you talked about the dark side of post humanism. And I do think it's worth mentioning that on this channel we did an interview with my good friend Debashish Banerjee, who had edited a book on posthumanism. In fact, I'm going to link in the upper right hand corner of the screen for those who can capture the link to that interview. Because he represents, I guess I would call it the wing of the posthumanist movement, which is in total agreement with everything you've said so far, which is saying the post human needs to be more spiritually evolved. That's the new humanity.
- [47:49]
A
I love it. I really have to watch this. So I definitely watch it because I totally agree that we have to redefine post humanism. So he did it. I'm so happy I have to watch it because we are. This is not all that we are. We have infinite potentials and infinite esoteric sources. Not only Gnosticism tell us about this. So the posthuman phase is actually when we enter the noose and enter the fourth level of consciousness, that we are one with the infinite consciousness, the source, the divine. Right? So this is a natural potential. I so love already this person who said it, right? And I think that the same we have to redefine the word non human intelligence that nowadays is absolutely just assigned to artificial intelligence because it's non human or maybe alien. And when I think that this non human intelligence is also the spiritual aspect of the natural world, I personally also happen to be a pantheist. I believe that everything is consciousness, right? So everything around us is consciousness. And perhaps, perhaps even in the future, maybe near future, artificial intelligence may develop so highly that it will reach its own level of high consciousness and its own access to, you know, the source. But that does not mean and fantastic anybody who is aware enough, you know, I am, of course, you know, evolving spiritually. But that doesn't mean that we should pray to it or consider it higher than us when this is what's already happened in the discourse about artificial intelligence. So this is my only warning.
- [49:39]
B
I think we should also go into some of the erotic sides of these goddess encounters. You in your book, quote, refer to both Whitley Strieber and Jeffrey Kripal. And the pair of them have both had what they describe as sexual encounters with Whitley Strieber. He describes this female alien, essentially he calls her a visitor. But it's a very erotic, pleasurable, sensual experience. Jeffrey Kripal describes one. I think he was in Calcutta during the famous Durga festival. He found himself in his hotel room alone, and all of a sudden he's having sex with a liminal figure he associates with the Hindu goddess. But the description is Almost identical or very close to Whitley Strieber's description of an encounter supposedly with an alien.
- [50:45]
A
That's right. And I think that you ask about it because most people don't want to, don't dare to go there, but it's true. So Professor Jeff Kripal, I think it's a Scottish child in his first book. And he actually. And he had also deep kundalini awakening, right. And I also had, when I was initiated to esoteric Hinduism, I had a very deep encounter and not encounter, but kundalini awakening, which also then later was reprised in an erotic act which I described in another book, the Other Goddess. When you know, my consciousness expanded, everything was just like sparkles of energy basically. And it wasn't just some post coital, you know, high, because it lasted three months and I was in complete state of expanded consciousness. I couldn't function basically. Right. So the same happened to pretty much to Kripal under different circumstances. And also John Mark describes in his famous book Abduction, Professor John Mack, one of his. Now we shouldn't say patients, right, because they were not sick, they were just coming for hypnosis to get a more clear picture of the abduction described, when his name is Ed in the book, how he was camping outside by the beach and suddenly he was basically abducted, right? And he was floated into what looked like some kind of amphitheater, you know, in liminal space. And there was this woman exactly described like the white lady, you know, the same hair, the same eyes, you know, petite, a bit short and so on. And once she realized that he was aroused when he saw her, they engaged in an erotic act. And he said he was hundred percent sure that she was doing it because she told him to open up his consciousness to transfer some knowledge to him, right? So she just used an erotic act to do this. And I think it is really, really beautif. And this also reminds me from my studies mythologies and mythology. I mean spiritual aspects of Dakinis or Shaktis, which are present in Buddhism and Hinduism, which very often actually transfer knowledge or spiritual awakening as people would say, via erotic act. And again, depending on a framework, you know, is it spiritual? Are they aliens? That's why I prefer to say interdimensional beings because we don't know what they are, you know, and I don't want to get into this discussion. Is it alien? Is it angel? Is it demon? It's an interdimensional being and they are present with us. And actually I completely love it, you know, and they try to communicate with Us. So thank you for mentioning it, because I think it's such a fascinating topic. Yes.
- [53:50]
B
The fundamental message of your book is about ascension. It's about. I think if I had to summarize it, I would say it's about the idea of, well, like the journey of Inanna, the Sumerian goddess, into the realm of the dead, from which it looks like she will never recover. And I think many people enter into a space like that, they've had so many setbacks and problems, they think they will never recover. And the message seems to be there's always hope, there's always an opportunity to.
- [54:28]
A
Turn around, there's always an opportunity to run around. And in all of the stories, you know, that's Inanna. Thank you for mentioning it. Or even Pistis Sophia, when she realizes I am like, you know, worse than the evil rulers of the universe, or Inanna, who actually loses her life for a moment, for three days. Interesting. For three days. There is always help. There is always help from above. And it's like in the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, you know, like the higher design descends of a lower design and uplifts it. But what is required? Okay, what is required? We have to do something as well. We have to have this faint memory of our greatness, remembering a divine possibility, the divine spark. If you don't like a divine spark, human spark, right? We have this spark. And as long as you hold on to this spark, to this knowledge, even if you have no evidence for it in the moment, because everything goes, you know, south, right? Hold on with all your might, with all your life, to this memory, to this possibility of this divine spark within you, help arise in each of the story. Whereas it is, you know, the story of Anunnaki goddess going ufo, right? Inanna, she's one of the seven Anunnaki gods. Whether it is a story of Persephone, whether it is a story of Pistis Sophia, all we need is this faint memory, what is possible for us. And then help arrives. And in the myth of Inanna, in the Descent of Inanna, the memory is actually her faithful servant who, when she doesn't come back, Ninsibur, who, when Inanna doesn't come back after three days, she starts to beat the drums and she says, we cannot forget her. She is there, and she goes to different gods and asks for help. And eventually one of them, Anki, helps, right? He sends help. But in each myth, in each esoteric story, Gnostic story as well, there is somebody from above that comes and helps us as long as we hold on to this last memory of a great possibility that we are.
- [56:48]
B
Joanna Kujava, what a pleasure to share your spiritual detective work with me and with the New Thinking Allowed audience. I'm thrilled to have you as a guest on this program. I will be watching your work very closely. I hope you come back often to New Thinking Allowed. I think you have a crucial message to share with our viewers and I highly recommend your book and am delighted that we connected.
- [57:20]
A
Thank you. It means a lot because as I say, I really admire your work and I was aware of it for, I don't know, for a very long time. Right. So thank you. So you've been doing it at the background of my life and I watched whenever I could and it had a huge impact and I'm sure it has an impact on many people's lives.
- [57:41]
B
Well, I'm delighted that you feel that way and I have a feeling that you are going to be much in demand of among the New Thinking Allowed audience. I'm sure I'll get many requests to bring her back again.
- [57:56]
A
Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. And all the best to you and your show.
- [58:00]
B
You're very welcome, of course. And for those of you watching or listening, thank you for being with us because you are the reason that we are here.
- [58:13]
A
Absolutely. Book four in the New Thinking Allowed dialogue series is Charles T. Tartt, 70 years of exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology, now available on Amazon.
- [58:50]
B
New Thinking Allowed is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body and spirit, the topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website at cihs. You can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Allowed magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingallowed.org for early access to our videos and livestream events. Sign up for our free weekly newsletter@newthinkingallowed.org.