Podcast Summary: "Who or What Are the Jinn" with Charles Upton

New Thinking Allowed Audio Podcast
Host: Jeffrey Mishlove
Guest: Charles Upton
Release Date: November 13, 2025

Overview

In this in-depth conversation, psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove interviews Charles Upton—poet, spiritual critic, and author—about the enigmatic beings known as the jinn (or genies) within Arabic and Middle Eastern cultures. Drawing from Islamic theology, folk traditions, personal experiences, and comparative mythology, Upton explores the nature, functions, and modern-day implications of the jinn, challenging both skeptical and occult perspectives. The discussion touches on intersections with poetry, spiritual practice, exorcism, UFO phenomena, and the changing boundaries between visible and invisible worlds.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Are the Jinn? (04:03–09:58)

• Continuity Between Pre-Islamic and Islamic Understanding:
  Upton notes that the conception of the jinn largely remained the same before and after Islam, with changes mostly in humanity's permissible relationship with them.
• Comparative Mythology:
  Jinn function as the Arab counterpart to European fairies, Greek daimones, Hindu asuras, and Norse jotuns—intermediary beings neither gods nor humans.
• Powers of the Jinn:
  They are often invisible, can temporarily materialize, and can affect physical reality (e.g., as in the Quranic account of Solomon).
• Jinn as Sources of Poetic Inspiration:
  In pre-Islamic Arabia, poets claimed inspiration from jinn, indicating a close traditional link between poetry and magic.
• Personal Anecdote:
  Upton shares a dream encounter with the jinn, who offered poetic gifts in exchange for allegiance.

  "They said, we will make you...the most famous poet in the world, and we will give you long, long epics that you can write." (08:10, Charles Upton)

• Quranic Shift:
  The Quran removed the jinn’s intermediary role, asserting direct revelation from God, rendering jinn’s previous functions obsolete.

2. Nature and Varieties of the Jinn (10:13–15:41)

• Wide Definition:
  Upton adopts a broad view—jinn encompass all kinds of invisible beings, including entities in global folklore like Sasquatch.
• Distinguishing Angels from Jinn:
  Angels appear as "solid light," whereas jinn manifest as "a haze of pixie dust" or sparkling particles.
• Psychic Phenomena:
  The guest links psychic surgeons in the Philippines to jinn-like spirit helpers, reflecting ancient shamanic traditions adapted into Christian contexts.
• Authenticity and Risks:
  While skeptical of fakes, Upton believes genuine psychic phenomena often involve the jinn.

3. Jinn, Miracles, and Spiritual Risk (15:41–19:00)

• Miracles vs. Jinn-Related Phenomena:
  Upton distinguishes miracles as "the dawning of a truth from a higher plane," whereas jinn-related acts are more like “ancient technology.”
• Morality Among the Jinn:
  The Quran states that some jinn are faithful and follow divine law, while others are akin to Christian demons.
• Sufi Advice:
  Most Sufi teachers advise against interacting with jinn—even the “faithful” ones—as their allure can distract from contemplation of God.

  “Their world is very fascinating, it's very diverting...we don't need that kind of fascination if we want to have one pointed concentration on God.” (18:39, Charles Upton)

4. Psychic Pollution and Spiritual Dangers (19:03–23:19)

• Risks of Spiritual Fascination:
  Upton compares fascination with jinn to becoming obsessed with movie stars or false gurus, warning of toxicity if boundaries aren’t maintained.
• Exorcism and Spiritual Science:
  Practices like Muslim ruqya (exorcism) and Catholic exorcism both address possession and obsession by these beings, highlighting the overlap between demons and jinn.
• Nature Spirits:
  Not all invisible beings are evil; some, like nature spirits at Findhorn, support the natural world. Yet, excessive interest even in benign entities is discouraged.

5. Thinning Veil Between Worlds (23:19–26:40)

• Modern Disruption of Spiritual Barriers:
  Upton references the Quranic tale of Dhul Qarnayn building a wall to contain destructive forces (akin to jinn or Gog and Magog). He believes contemporary phenomena like drugs, the Internet, and AI are breaking down such barriers.
• Tech as a Gateway:
  Upton speculates technology may be inspired by jinn to give themselves a “body” in our world.

  “I almost felt that our computers, a lot of our technology, our computers, the Internet, were inspired in scientists by the jinn so that they could...create, as it were, a body for themselves in this world…” (24:52, Charles Upton)

• AI Artwork as Evidence:
  He recounts seeing disturbing anomalies in AI-generated religious images, suggesting possible jinn influence.

6. UFO Phenomena and the Jinn (26:40–33:21)

• Prevalence and Variety:
  Cites researcher Preston Dennett to emphasize the global frequency and shapeshifting nature of purported alien encounters.
• Skepticism Toward Extraterrestrial Explanations:
  Attributes UFOs to the jinn rather than aliens from other planets, arguing their powers align more with folklore entities than material spacecraft.

  “The jinn are shape shifters. They can appear in any number of forms...If the jinn are a part of nature...they’re another kind of being that exists in our world.” (27:55, Charles Upton)

• Material Manifestations:
  While some claim physical artifacts or corpses from these encounters, Upton is unconvinced; occasionally, the form might persist after death, per anecdotal reports.

7. Islamic Prohibitions and Spiritual Hierarchy (33:21–36:51)

• Condemnation of Worshipping Jinn:
  The Quran forbids propitiating jinn, stressing that only God should be approached.
• Spirit Guides & Religious Growth:
  Upton sees New Age spirit guide phenomena as possibly acceptable for spiritual beginners, but dangerous for more advanced seekers—a distraction from monotheism is perilous (shirk).
• Skeptical Interpretations:
  Challenges the reduction of jinn encounters to mere subconscious projections, noting the mysterious, potent properties of the mind, like in poltergeist or Tibetan tulpa phenomena.
• Jinn as Objective Entities:
  Reiterates: “The jinn are there just like, you know, like geese and deer and jinn. You know, they're really out there.” (37:12, Charles Upton)

8. Poetic & Mythological Resonances (37:24–45:04)

• Poetry and Inspiration:
  Discusses the fine line between supernatural inspiration and the workings of the subconscious, using both personal dreams and exorcist criteria for distinguishing true possession.
• Language Mastery:
  Jinn are portrayed as "masters of language," reinforcing their role as muse-like inventors of poetry.
• Jinn in Other Cultures:
  Draws parallels to Greek daimones (intermediaries), Nordic giants, and the mythological tendency for monotheism to degenerate into polytheism, with jinn-like figures filling the intermediary void.

9. Magic, Solomon, and the Jinn (45:04–49:16)

• Quranic Stories:
  Solomon was the last prophet permitted to command the jinn; after him, such relationships are forbidden.
• Historical Magic Traditions:
  Many magical practices (e.g., grimoires, “keys of Solomon”) involve jinn or demon subjugation, often under a veneer of Christianized magic.
• Dangers of Magical Deception:
  Jinn or demons can trick magicians into thinking they have control, when actually the balance of power is reversed.

10. Jinn in Pop Culture and Contemporary Occultism (48:29–50:17)

• Influence of Media:
  Modern perceptions of jinn (e.g., Disney’s Aladdin) trivialize potential dangers and encourage children to see magic as harmless entertainment.
• Superstition vs Spiritual Discernment:
  Upton acknowledges his beliefs might be viewed as superstition but stresses the importance of clear distinctions and sober engagement with the invisible world.

11. Dangers of Fascination & Humanity’s Spiritual Mandate (50:17–52:42)

• Fascination vs Duty:
  The danger lies not inherently in encountering invisible beings but in becoming enthralled—distracted from one’s spiritual purpose.

  “If the beautiful elemental says, come with me into my world...that's where the problem begins.” (51:04, Charles Upton)

• Quranic Perspective:
  Humanity’s role is to maintain connection to the absolute for the benefit of Earth. Indulgence in jinn or elemental fascination is seen as a dereliction of this “trust” (amana).

Notable Quotes

• On poetry and jinn:
  “They said, we will make you...the most famous poet in the world, and we will give you long, long epics that you can write.” (08:10, Charles Upton)
• On miracles vs psychic phenomena:
  “A miracle is not just a paranormal event. It's the dawning of a truth from a higher plane...but the feeling of the psychic surgeons is, well, this is an ancient technology.” (15:55, Charles Upton)
• On monotheism and spiritual hierarchy:
  “If you've come into the field of direct relationship with God, and then you decide you want to go back and have some dealings with the spirit guides and the jinn, then you're in real trouble, because that is shirk...” (35:17, Charles Upton)
• On the seductive danger of the jinn:
  “Their world is very fascinating, it's very diverting...we don't need that kind of fascination if we want to have one pointed concentration on God.” (18:39, Charles Upton)
• On the contemporary collapse of barriers:
  “Psychedelic drugs and the Internet and artificial intelligence...are opening the door to the invisible world to directly interact with our world...” (24:05, Charles Upton)
• On technology and possibility of jinn influence:
  “Our computers, the Internet, were inspired in scientists by the jinn so that they could...create, as it were, a body for themselves in this world...” (24:52, Charles Upton)
• On relationship with the invisible:
  “The jinn are there just like...geese and deer and jinn. You know, they're really out there.” (37:12, Charles Upton)
• On humanity’s responsibility:
  “We have a mandate. We have a responsibility as human beings which is to maintain the sense of...communication with the absolute for the benefit of the entire terrestrial plane.” (52:06, Charles Upton)

Timestamps of Key Segments

• Introduction to Jinn Concepts and Comparative Mythology — 04:03–09:58
• Upton’s Personal Experiences and Psychic Surgery Discussion — 10:13–15:41
• Jinn, Miracles, and the Dangers of Fascination — 15:41–19:03
• On Spiritual Pollution and Exorcism — 19:03–23:19
• Modernity and Thinning Spiritual Barriers — 23:19–26:40
• UFOs and Jinn: A Unified Theory — 26:40–33:21
• Islamic and New Age Approaches to Invisible Beings — 33:21–36:51
• Poetry, Language, and the Jinn — 37:24–39:47
• The Jinn in Greek Mythology and Theological Evolution — 39:47–45:04
• Magic, Solomon, and Christianized Demonology — 45:04–49:16
• Jinn in Pop Culture and Occult Trends — 48:29–50:17
• Humanity’s Mandate and the Final Warning — 50:17–52:42

Memorable Moments

• Jinn’s Temptation as Poetic Muses — Upton’s vivid dream of being recruited by jinn with poetic inspiration (08:10).
• AI and Jinn Intrusion — The eerie observation of AI-generated sacred images featuring distorted aspects as potentially sinister (24:52).
• Exorcism and Distinguishing Possession — Clarifies the practical differentiation between psychological and supernatural phenomena using exorcist criteria (37:42).

Final Thoughts

Charles Upton offers an erudite yet accessible journey through the concept of the jinn, interweaving personal stories, classical sources, and pressing modern concerns. His perspectives challenge both secular and contemporary occult narratives, urging careful discernment and a return to primary spiritual responsibilities. For seekers, skeptics, and the curious, this episode is a rich resource for understanding the continuing relevance of the jinn in spiritual and cultural life.