Is Andy Burnham Rewarding Starmer’s Challengers?

Summary

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Newscast Episode Summary

Episode Title: Is Andy Burnham Rewarding Starmer’s Challengers?
Date: July 22, 2026
Hosts/Contributors: Adam Fleming, Chris Mason, Henry Mance
Podcast Theme: Analysis of Andy Burnham’s first days as Prime Minister, focusing on his policy decisions, ministerial appointments, and the political dynamics following Keir Starmer’s resignation.

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Episode Overview

This episode of Newscast delves into the early actions of Andy Burnham’s premiership. The discussion centers on Burnham’s reintroduction of the £2 bus fare cap in England, the funding mechanics of this policy, and the broader context of his approach to cabinet appointments. The hosts examine allegations that Burnham is rewarding those who pushed Keir Starmer out, discuss the fallout among former Starmer loyalists, and review the complexities and optics of ministerial reshuffles. The episode blends political insight with trademark banter, including memorable exchanges about Celebrity Mastermind and quiz show experiences.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Return of the £2 Bus Fare Cap

• Announcement & Context

  • Andy Burnham’s government has reintroduced the £2 bus fare cap in England, starting in 2027.
  • Chris Mason explains that while Burnham was proud to pioneer similar policies in Greater Manchester, this move is now brand "Burnham," reinforcing his commitment to the cost-of-living agenda.
  • Quote:
    "Andy Burnham wants the morning, wants the day to be dominated by the sense that he is doing something about... the cost of living." – Henry Mance (06:02)

• Eligibility & Duration

  • The cap only applies to England, not the whole UK, and is slated to last for the 2027 calendar year. (06:16)

• Funding Mechanism

  • Henry details how the cap will be funded: £400 million transferred from climate projects (as a loan), an additional £50 million redirected from the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, and existing Department for Transport funds.
  • Burnham’s team is keen to avoid the impression of increasing borrowing, aiming not to "spook the financial markets." (08:33)
    Quote:
    "Again, a government spending announcement has come with an instantaneous explanation of how this is being funded by spending cuts or... reprioritisation rather than increased borrowing." – Henry Mance (08:35)

2. Devolution and Ministerial Appointments

• Scaling Devolved Ideas

  • Burnham is drawing from devolved regional policy successes—like those in Greater Manchester, Liverpool (Steve Rotherham), and London (Sadiq Khan)—and implementing them nationwide.

• Scottish Labour Leader to Peerage

  • Anas Sarwar (Scottish Labour leader) is set to be made a peer and Trade Minister, an unusual move for a Scottish Labour leader to take a UK-level ministerial role.
  • Discussion about implications for Scottish Labour, the process of taking a peerage, and the effect on Holyrood/Westminster relations (09:57–19:48).
    Quote:
    "Quite a thing, I think, giving Anas Sarwar a job in government, given how pivotal a figure, frankly, he was in what turned out to be the last six months of Keir Starmer’s premiership." – Chris Mason (11:17)

3. The Politics of Rewarding Starmer’s Challengers

• Plum Government Jobs for Dissenters

  • Henry and Chris list senior figures whose actions contributed to Starmer’s downfall and are now in top roles:
    • John Healey, now Chancellor, resigned as Defence Secretary under Starmer at a critical moment.
    • Ed Miliband, now Foreign Secretary, was the first to urge Starmer to resign.
    • Shabana Mahmood remains Home Secretary, also among those who pressed Starmer to step down.
    • Miyata Fambula (Energy Security and Net Zero Secretary), also resigned amid Starmer's crisis. (13:36-13:48)
  • The episode underscores the arithmetic of reshuffles: "The dispossessed and never possessed add up to a greater... total than the given a job crowd." – Chris Mason (17:47)

• Formation of a 'Starmer Faction'

  • Patrick Maguire’s theory: Burnham’s choices have inadvertently created a group of Starmer loyalists outside the tent, which could spell factional trouble in the future.
    Quote:
    "Every set of government appointments... creates a massive group of the dispossessed as well as a massive group of the never possessed." – Henry Mance (16:30)

4. Cabinet Banter Turned Controversy

• Garden Remark Gaffe
  • Wes Streeting (Defence Secretary) caught on camera joking to Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood about Justice Secretary Alex Norris: "He is the enemy now... he wants to let them all out." (22:08)
  • The banter about the tensions between Home and Justice Secretaries was unfortunately juxtaposed with news about early release of prisoners convicted in the PC Andrew Harper case.
  • Both ministers issued public apologies, with Chris Mason noting the difference in tone between informal conversation and public perception. (23:42–24:59) Quote:
    "That juxtaposition is clearly unfortunate in a dreadful, dreadful case." – Chris Mason (23:42)

5. Andy Burnham’s Policy Messaging and Communication Style

• The Personal Allowance ‘Hare’

  • On the eve of becoming PM, Burnham signaled that freezing the income tax personal allowance (£12,750) was the biggest frustration voters expressed in Makerfield.
  • He equivocated over whether unfreezing it would be a policy priority—eventually walking back but maintaining it as a possible budget consideration (25:51–27:13). Quote:
    "It is interesting that Andy Burnham has mostly walked it back, but not entirely... You are going to set more than one hare running." – Henry Mance (26:45)

• Contrast with Starmer and Sunak

  • Chris Mason contrasts Burnham’s open, discursive style with the tight-lipped discipline of his predecessors: Quote:
    "Given how incredibly careful the last two Prime Ministers were in all of their public utterances, Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak... Does Andy Burnham think that there is a merit in... leaning into these things... or does that just end up looking like you’re commentating?" – Chris Mason (29:14)

6. Light-Hearted Moments & Podcast Chemistry

• Celebrity Mastermind Banter
  • Repeated jokes about Chris Mason’s appearance and near-win on Celebrity Mastermind.
  • Henry Mance takes a mock "Mastermind" quiz on Rafael Benitez and Peep Show, scoring well and sparking friendly competition between the hosts. (30:20–32:04)
    • Quote:
      "This is like a literal nightmare. This is like something that you would wake up from at 3:30 in the morning." – Henry Mance (31:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Henry Mance’s observation on cabinet patronage:
  "Every reshuffle... creates a massive group of the dispossessed as well as... the never possessed." (16:30)
• Chris Mason’s reality-check:
  "It's an arithmetic reality that the dispossessed and never possessed add up to a greater... total than the given a job crowd." (17:47)
• Wes Streeting’s gaffe (lip-read & explained):
  "He is the enemy now... He wants to let them all out." (22:08)
• Tone shift on banter as news story breaks:
  "That juxtaposition is clearly unfortunate in a dreadful, dreadful case." – Chris Mason (23:42)
• Henry Mance on vintage political quiz aspirations:
  "This is like a literal nightmare... Adam Fleming was asking me questions about Rafa Benitez and I couldn't remember any of the answers." (31:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Burnham’s £2 Bus Cap Policy Announcement: 05:23–09:34
• Devolution and UK Government Roles: 09:34–12:18
• Formation of the 'Starmer Faction'/Cabinet Politics: 12:18–17:47
• Ministerial Arithmetic and Reshuffle Realities: 17:47–18:03
• Anas Sarwar, Peerages, and UK Ministerial Implications: 18:03–20:49
• Wes Streeting Banter Controversy: 21:29–24:59
• Burnham’s Tax Allowance Communication: 24:59–30:20
• Celebrity Mastermind Banter and Hosts’ Chemistry: 30:20–32:27

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Tone & Style

Throughout, the episode maintains an accessible, conversational style, blending serious political analysis with warm office banter. The hosts’ familiarity and wit make complex developments comprehensible and relatable, with political nuance, historical context, and human insight equally on display.

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This summary encapsulates the key substance, humor, and character of the episode, providing a thorough guide for listeners—new or regular—seeking an engaging yet in-depth understanding of these pivotal weeks in British politics.

Transcript

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[Adam Fleming]

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[Chris Mason]

hello.

[Adam Fleming]

Chris is here.

[Chris Mason]

Hi.

[Adam Fleming]

And Henry's here.

[Henry Mance]

Hello.

[Adam Fleming]

Hi. Sorry it's been a while. Who's been on the early shift for the whole of the Andy Burnham premiership? It's just been one big long shift actually for you two, hasn't it?

[Chris Mason]

Felt like it, yeah, it has really.

[Adam Fleming]

The story today is about the return of the two pound bus cap in England. And so we asked the Department for Transport what what's the longest bus journey and therefore the best value you can get? Any ideas what they came back with? Well, they actually couldn't tell us directly and specifically, but they gave us some ideas while they're trying to find the actual answer.

[Chris Mason]

I'd be thinking sort of maybe Devon, Cornwall routes or Maybe Northumberland.

[Adam Fleming]

Yorkshire, closer to that end of the country. Yeah, Yorkshire, Yes.

[Chris Mason]

Oh, about £2 for a long bus journey in Yorkshire. Now this is. I'm allowing myself to drift off into summer holiday mode.

[Adam Fleming]

Well, exactly. I'm doing this, a little treat for you, just to get you through the last few days.

[Chris Mason]

Excellent.

[Adam Fleming]

The Coastliner 840 from Leeds to Whitby via York.

[Chris Mason]

Yes, I am familiar with that bus. Mainly getting stuck behind it, I think. But that is, it takes quite a while, I think now, because what would it be, 80 miles, something like that.

[Adam Fleming]

03:25:14 Attractions on the way. So you then read that, you read the blurb of this bus. It makes me want to get on it right now. So you can see Castle Howard.

[Chris Mason]

Terrific.

[Adam Fleming]

Which of course is famous from Brideshead Revisited. Then you can stop at Yorkshire's food capital, Malton.

[Chris Mason]

Absolutely right.

[Adam Fleming]

Then you go to Pickering. Lots of lovely shops there.

[Chris Mason]

Hang on a minute, hang on a minute, hang on. There's a bit of fact checking to do it. If you get off the bus though, you're not gonna have to pay another two quid when you get back on it.

[Adam Fleming]

Yes, I presume so.

[Chris Mason]

Well, you've just run up a 10 quid bill already.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, that's a very good point.

[Chris Mason]

Before you buy a organic pork pie

[Adam Fleming]

in Moulton Henry, did you know what Chris Mason's specialist subject was on Celebrity Mastermind?

[Henry Mance]

I didn't even know Chris had been on Celebrity Mastermind. Did you win, Chris?

[Chris Mason]

Alas, I was the first loser. I was second. I was let down.

[Henry Mance]

The first loser. That is the phrase of someone who's had to justify this more than once.

[Chris Mason]

My general knowledge rather let me down.

[Henry Mance]

What was the specialist subject then?

[Chris Mason]

The specialist subject was the Yorkshire Dales.

[Henry Mance]

Ah, nice.

[Adam Fleming]

So specifically the bus routes through them though.

[Chris Mason]

No, no, and I did well in that round because, you know, but general, you can't really, you can't really mug up in short order on general knowledge. And so that unfortunately let me down

[Henry Mance]

when I told a former colleague, as they now are, but a colleague, as they were at the time, at the Times where I worked before the BBC, that I was joining the BBC and they'll remain nameless. But they interviewed the Prime Minister in the last few days, they said to me, that's amazing, you'll get to go on Celebrity Mastermind. That was literally their first reaction. And three years on, here I am and I've never been asked.

[Adam Fleming]

We'll see what we can do. Anyway, we digress. Your specialist subject, you Two for your joint appearance on newscast is day three of Andy Burnham's premiership.

[Chris Mason]

Newscast, Newscast from the BBC. Humanity's next great voyage begins.

[Adam Fleming]

You know, I like my buses, I'll come on to them.

[Chris Mason]

I see that he was, I guess,

[Henry Mance]

the mayor of a town.

[Adam Fleming]

Ooh la la.

[Chris Mason]

Thinking about it like a panto helped.

[Henry Mance]

Do we play music now or what do we do?

[Chris Mason]

And what will you do?

[Henry Mance]

Stare at a wall?

[Adam Fleming]

Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio

[Chris Mason]

and it is Chris in Westminster and

[Henry Mance]

it is Henry in a slightly different room in Westminster to Chris.

[Adam Fleming]

So Henry, how did this story drop that the two pound bus cap is being reintroduced in England?

[Henry Mance]

Well, for the second consecutive day, Adam, I got an email landing in my inbox at about six in the morning and for the second consecutive day it included a quote from Andy Burnham, the new Prime Minister, using the phrase breathing space. And that has become his mantra as Prime Minister over these three days that he has spent in the job so far. And it is really striking thing that for two consecutive days, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a third and fourth and beyond. Andy Burnham wants the morning, wants the day to be dominated by the sense that he is doing something about what he and so many other politicians say is voters number one issue, which is the cost of living.

[Adam Fleming]

And Chris, just give us the T's and C's for this because it's not the whole uk, it's England, for example.

[Chris Mason]

It's England. It's England and it is for the calendar year, starting next year. So for 2027. And here is Andy Burnham picking up and running with something that he was proud of doing in Greater Manchester. He's talked frequently about how much he loves buses. I think it's, it's as Henry was saying, emphasizing that kind of central message of his week around the cost of living. And then it's kind of part of brand Burnham, isn't it? I think that heavy association he has with buses in particular, because what he did with the B network, as it's called in Greater Manchester, I think he pointedly chose to head west rather than north from London for the launch of this policy, heading to Bath to stand in front of a bus that had had its livery put in with a big two pound coin and talking about the two pound fare and yeah, this, the attempt after yesterday to try and hammer home a message of really leaning into the whole cost of living argument and trying to make an argument that they're trying to make something of contributions, doing something about it.

[Adam Fleming]

Although Henry, I Wonder if that £2 branded bus had just been parked in a garage since the Boris Johnson era.

[Henry Mance]

Well, it is certainly a point that is being made by the Conservatives today, that this was a policy introduced by the conservatives back in 2023 initially, by the way, just meant to be temporary and then quickly became permanent, as is often the case with these things. The Conservatives said at the 2024 general election that they wanted to find a way to maintain it. Then Sir Keir Starmer increased the cap to £3 back in 2025. So, look, I think there's an interesting question here about whether, though, as Chris was saying, this has only been introduced by Andy Burnham for the calendar year 2027. Whether actually this is going to become a bit like fuel duty has become for the past, well, 16 years now, one of those government policies which in theory is always going to change. In theory, the cap is always going to increase at some point in the future, but in practice, it just becomes politically impossible ever to change it.

[Adam Fleming]

And, Henry, there's a slightly complicated way for how this is going to be funded.

[Henry Mance]

That's right. And it is, by the way, notable that for the second consecutive day, again, a government spending announcement has come with an instantaneous explanation of how this is being funded by spending cuts or spending reprioritisation rather than increased borrowing. Because Andy Burnham is certainly very alive to the possibility that they might spook the financial markets if they look like they're being profligate in this case, he says most of the scheme is being funded by £400 million, which the government was going to invest in climate projects. But he says instead that is going to be a loan, which means that the capital can be spent on this bus policy instead. There's another £50 million or so which is going towards this project, which hasn't been spent again from Department for Energy Security and Net Zero Budgets. And then in addition to that, the government says that there's money that was already allocated for bus policy in. In the Department for Transport, which is now going to go on sustaining this cap instead.

[Adam Fleming]

And also, Chris, just in terms of the devolution point, there's some interesting things going on here because, okay, as you said, Andy Burnham had done this when he was in Greater Manchester, but his ally and neighbour in Liverpool, Steve Rotherham, had also been doing it. And in London, Sadiq Khan has got a cap that's even lower. So I suppose this is sort of taking the good bits of devolution and then applying them everywhere else. He would argue maybe Andy Burnham.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, I suppose there's two elements, two doses of this you could pick out of the last 24 hours. Indeed, that. So running with a devolved idea, if you like, and scaling it up. And Andy Burnham, in one of his social media videos, talks about his pride in. In doing exactly that. And there's a slight tangent from buses in England to a Labour leader in Scotland, Alasawa, the leader of Scottish Labour, due to be made a peer. So put into the House of Lords and become a minister in the Westminster government, which I note that one or two WAGs have OBs, is a. A curious twist on a commitment to devolution, which is to take a prominent leader from a, you know, the devolved architecture, if you like, of British politics and put them in the Westminster Parliament.

[Adam Fleming]

Although I noticed this hasn't happened yet because you got wind of it on Monday night and we're recording just after lunchtime on Wednesday and it still hasn't actually been announced.

[Chris Mason]

It hasn't. So, yeah, there was wind of it flying around on Tuesday night. Was it Tuesday night? Yeah, Tuesday night. And the expectation at the. I was told, certainly by folk north of the border, that there would be official confirmation before the evening was out, before the 10 o' clock news was on. I did a little bit of chasing to be told from folk rather geographically closer to where I am that it wasn't coming last night, but they weren't disputing that it's going to happen. But it wasn't coming last night. And here we are as we record it, just before 3 o' clock on Wednesday afternoon and it has still not happened. There are indeed some other ministerial appointments in the lower ranks of government that are still to be, well, either filled or confirmed that the incumbents are maintaining their roles. But, yeah, quite a thing, I think, giving Anas Sawa a job in government, given how pivotal a figure, frankly, he was in what turned out to be the last six months of Keir Starmer's premiership, with that announcement that he made back in February saying that he thought Keir Starmer should resign, that he was dragging Scottish Labour backwards ahead of the devolved elections in May. So that was undeniably a staging post in the demise of Keir Starmer. And it could, on that day, it looked like it for about an hour. It could have been the point that brought him down.

[Adam Fleming]

Although, Henry, if we now do a tot up a little list, who are people who could be accused of not necessarily stabbing Keir Starmer in the back, but putting their shoulders around him and walking him closer towards the exit, who've now got quite plum jobs out of it.

[Henry Mance]

Well, literally the three top jobs in government, the great offices of state. The Chancellor John Healey served Sir Keir Starmer as his Defence Secretary for almost two years. And then at the moment of Keir Starmer's maximum political vulnerability in the run up to that Makerfield by election resigned, saying that the Prime Minister was unable and the former Chancellor, Rachel Reeves was unwilling to commit the money that he believed was needed to defend the uk. Now John Healey is very clear that that was a policy based resignation, but he is an experienced enough politician to have known that that was most likely to be, as it proved, one of the final nails in Keir Starmer's political coffin. And then the Foreign Secretary is Ed Miliband who did the full two years in Sir Keir Starmer's Cabinet. But it is widely known that he was the first member of the Cabinet some time ago now to go to Keir Starmer and say that his position was unsustainable and that he ought to set a date for his departure. And the Home Secretary is as it was under Keir Starmer, Shabana Mahmood, who followed not long after Ed Miliband making a similar argument and the new Energy

[Adam Fleming]

Security and Net zero Secretary, Miyata Fambula. Chris, I remember you interviewing her, indeed just a few minutes after she'd resigned because she was one of the first ministerial level to resign after the local elections.

[Chris Mason]

Indeed so. And was happy to acknowledge on that very day of her keenness for Andy Burnham to have a bright political future. So yeah, look, these things are there and are very visible. It is also true to say that a decent number of ministers have been cut and paste, if you like, from their previous jobs in the Starmer government into the same job under Andy Burnham. That's unquestionably true. And then of course, you know, we should see all of this that we're talking about now in the same context as the conversation of 24 hours ago relating to Darren Jones, the former Chief Secretary to the now previous Prime Minister and indeed a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury. And those rather that rather architect post on X talking about the funding, or as he saw it, the lack of clear funding for the VAT cut on domestic electricity bills. You know, to what extent do we see bubblings of the hurt, the pain from some of those within the Labour Party who have, you know, found the last couple of days, weeks, months, really, really hard bubbling out both in short order, but then in the months Ahead as well.

[Adam Fleming]

And, Henry, your old colleague from the Times, Patrick Maguire, who made the gag about you being on Celebrity Masterminds, which you haven't been able.

[Chris Mason]

Henry, what would be your specialist subject?

[Henry Mance]

Well, I think about this a lot. The sad reality is that it would be British politics. But if that were forbidden, you're not

[Adam Fleming]

allowed to do your day job.

[Henry Mance]

I think it would be either the Life and Career of Rafael Benitez or Peep show, the seminal Channel 4 series. Obviously, both speak to a completely misspent youth.

[Adam Fleming]

I wish you good luck in both. You could be on two episodes, two special subjects. Anyway, the reason I was bringing up Patrick Maguire making that gag in your old office about Celebrity Mastermind is he. He's been sort of the main author of the theory that this Andy Burnham reshuffle has instantly created a Starmer faction in the Labour Party that hadn't really existed before.

[Henry Mance]

Yeah, I think there is something in that, because those ministers who have been dispensed with have generally been the ones who were most personally committed to Keir Starmer by the end. So, as Chris was saying, there are lots of people in the government continuing in jobs or in different jobs who served Keir Starmer, but the ones who really fought to the end for him are disproportionately the ones from the Cabinet, at least, who are gone. I mean, you know, I could have kept going after the great officers of state, by the way, to say that the next traditionally most senior job, Defense Secretary, has gone to Wes Treating, of course, who was, for a long period of time, the most plausible rival to Keir Starmer. And if Anas Sawa had got his wish and Keir Starmer had gone in February, well, Andy Burnham wouldn't have been available. And it may well have been Wes Streeting who might have succeeded Keir Starmer at that point. I mean, I think actually every reshuffle or every set of government appointments, because this isn't really a reshuffle, it is a new government. Every instance where dozens and dozens, in fact more than 100 MPs are either being appointed or being sacked creates a massive group of the dispossessed as well as a massive group of the never possessed. The people who thought that they might have got jobs and turn out to discover that they're not going to get jobs and perhaps were never in line for the kind of jobs that they thought they were in line for. That was true of Keir Starmer's last and indeed first major reshuffle that he did in September. 20, 25. I think there's a strong argument that that was one of the things which stored up a lot of political pain for him. Might well have been worth it to get the right people in the right jobs, as he saw it. But you will absolutely, over the coming months and years, be able to trace back particular episodes where things go wrong for Andy Burnham or where he Encounters dissent from MPs or groups of MPs. You will absolutely be able to trace that back to the decisions that he's been making over the past couple of days about personnel.

[Chris Mason]

And it is always the case. It's an arithmetic reality that the dispossessed and never possessed add up to a greater token total than the given a job crowd. So, you know, that's that and that's. That's just. That's just the reality of it.

[Adam Fleming]

If we just park the. The accusations of rewarding people who were backstabbers or the factualism stuff for a second and just look at the appointment of Lord Sarwar as a Trade Minister. I mean, actually, on its own merits, that is an interesting thing to do, isn't it, Chris? Because the Scottish Labour leader doesn't normally really have a role at a UK level. They've always in the past focused on either being First Minister of Scotland or challenging the First Minister of Scotland. And actually, I just think having a Scottish person doing trade sends an interesting thing about Scotland's role in the union.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah. I think the expectation is that there would be a contest to find a new Scottish Labour leader once.

[Adam Fleming]

Oh, so this wouldn't be a tiny share arrangement.

[Chris Mason]

No, because not least because you now cannot sit in both Parliaments at the same. At the same time. So on accepting a seat in the House of Lords, so a seat in. In Westminster, he would be disqualified from his seat at Holyrood. It doesn't mean, curiously, that there would be a by election for his seat because he was elected on the regional list and so it would be the next Labour candidate on the list in his region who would take that seat. We saw a similar thing play out after the Westminster by election in Aberdeen south, which was won by the Conservatives and then had a knock on. As a result. As a result of. Result. Result of that. But I think it is, I mean, it is interesting nonetheless. It's interesting in terms of how it goes down with Scottish Labour MPs, some of them none too pleased that, you know, there is a finite number of ministerial jobs available. And here goes one to someone who isn't. Who isn't an mp.

[Adam Fleming]

Do you know what? Can I just explain why I made that mistake, or at least why I think I made that mistake?

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, go on.

[Adam Fleming]

I was thinking of the Reform leader in Scotland, Malcolm offered Lord Offord, who did it the other way around.

[Chris Mason]

Yes.

[Adam Fleming]

So he resigned his seat in the House of Lords, but he is still Lord Offered because you don't lose your peerage, you just lose your spot in the House of Lords.

[Henry Mance]

I think he took a leave of absence. And the other example, by the way, is the recently departed Welsh First Minister, Elen Ed Morgan, or as she was known in Westminster before she went to Wales, Baroness Morgan. So I think you can keep your title and also keep the possibility of returning there at some point, but yeah, absolutely.

[Adam Fleming]

Another little specialist subject rearing its head.

[Henry Mance]

I'm not sure what the second and third and fourth and fifth questions are about that, but let me try.

[Chris Mason]

And there was the two, just whilst we're running with this particular theme, Stephen Flynn and Stephen Gethins, the two former SNP MPs who won seats at Holyrood in May, therefore triggering two Westminster by elections because they couldn't sit in both Parliaments at the same time.

[Adam Fleming]

Presumably, though, if Lord Sarwar is appointed to the Lords, if this all happens, he'll be Lord Sarwar of Polit Shields, which is the area of Glasgow he and I grew up in, a few streets away from each other, although we didn't know each other. Right, okay. So that's one of the things Andy Burnham is having to deal with. So you've got him on the one hand trying to be the Prime Minister who's just come in the clean sweep, the new broom, announcing eye catching policies that will help people in their pockets. But at the same time he's having to just deal with the stuff that gets thrown at Prime Ministers. For example, this allegations of rewarding people who helped him get into Downing Street. And the second example of that is dealing with gaffes. And there's been a bit of a gaffe involving Wes Streeting and the Home Secretary, Henry.

[Henry Mance]

Yes, that's right. Some people will have seen some of the footage of the Cabinet, the new Cabinet, before their first meeting as Andy Burnham's Cabinet on Tuesday. They were having tea and coffee in the Downing street garden and actually we

[Adam Fleming]

can hear a bit of it and it's quite hard to hear what they're actually saying. But then, Henry, you can do the lip reading thing.

[Chris Mason]

That was utterly unintelligible, isn't it?

[Adam Fleming]

But Henry's going to make it intelligible.

[Henry Mance]

Okay. So that was Wes Streeting, who is now the Defence Secretary, talking to Shabana Mahmood, who remains the Home Secretary, about Alex Norris, who is the new Justice Secretary. And Wes Streeting said of Alex Norris, he is the enemy now. Shibala Mahmoud said, no, he's not. And Wes Streeting went on to say, he wants to let them all out, which has been interpreted by some people as a reference to the Government's early release scheme. I'm not sure it was that. I think it was a reference to the sort of general joke that is made sometimes in public, more often in private, between Home Secretaries and Justice Secretaries, about the Home Secretaries being the people whose job it is to lock offenders up, and the Justice Secretary's job being to run a prison system, which of course, for most prisoners, does ultimately, at some point, release prisoners.

[Adam Fleming]

But unfortunately for those banterers, Chris, this bit of banter in the Downing Street Garden runs headlong into a news story which was in the Telegraph, which is about two of the people who were jailed over the death of PC Andrew Harper, the police officer who was dragged behind a car when he'd gone to investigate a burglary. PC Harper's mum was talking to the Telegraph, saying, oh, I've just been informed that two of the people who were jailed are probably going to be released early because of the Government's reforms to sentencing to reduce the pressure on prison places. And so that bit of banter, then it looks one way in the Downing Street Garden to the banterers, but then looks another way in the context of what else is going on in the news.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, you know, and that juxtaposition is clearly unfortunate in a dreadful, dreadful case. And it prompted the broadcasting of that clip to make clear, as Henry was saying there, that, you know, the cameras were invited in to film that cup of tea and coffee that Cabinet Ministers are having prior to their first meeting of the Cabinet under Andy Burnham. So it wasn't like it was leaked or surreptitiously recorded. The politicians there knew that the cameras were there. But we did get apologies from West Streeting and Chabad, Madame Mahmoud, Defense and Home Secretaries respectively, posted on social media, talking about there being no ill intent, but recognizing the very, very serious issues being talked about. I think. I mean, as I say, clearly the juxtaposition is unfortunate. I think, in the interest of proportionality, it's worth reflecting that everyone tends to, say, approach conversations in a tone and tenor rather differently when you're chatting informally than you might when you're in of formal kind of presentation. I suspect that kind of happens in every workplace, in every kind of corner of life, really. But yeah, the apology is perhaps inevitable, particularly given that context.

[Adam Fleming]

Now, one of the other things Andy Burnham was having to get used to is clarifying his own remarks. For example, one, he did an interview on the eve of becoming Prime Minister where he said the thing he kept on hearing when he was campaigning in Makerfield was people complaining about the freeze on the tax free allowance for income tax. And actually we went back into the archives, the recent archives, and found that question time he did in Makerfield with Fiona Bruce, where there was a very angry woman in the audience who was

[Unidentified Caller/Participant]

angry about this reform having their manifesto. They're going to raise the tax threshold. Why is that not in your manifesto? Because if you put that in your manifesto, you'll want this by election easy. You're right. Okay, you need to put that in your. If not for everybody here, for benefit.

[Adam Fleming]

And then, Henry, just remind us how Andy Burnham got this hair running a few days ago.

[Henry Mance]

Well, he gave an interview on the eve of becoming Prime Minister in which he said the biggest frustration he heard from the voters of Makerfield was about the personal allowance. So it wasn't completely clear from the quote whether he was talking about just low income workers, talking about feeling overtaxed, or whether it was specifically about the personal allowance, which is the amount of money you receive before you start having to pay income tax. And it's been frozen at £12,750 since 2021. But if you raise that, essentially unprompted, as the incoming Prime Minister, as the number one frustration of a constituency where you've said that the test of everything you're going to do is how would it go down in that constituency, make a field? Well, you are going to set more than one hair run. So it is interesting that Andy Burnham has mostly walked it back, but not entirely. He talked today about how it is something that it might be looked at in the context of the budget this autumn. I don't think it was ever plausible that it would be looked at before the budget, given what we've talked about before about Mandy Burnham being wary of being seen to make unfunded spending commitments or unfunded commitments on tax. So, look, I think it is a very interesting sign of his instincts, though I think we're still quite unclear how his instincts, publicly declared as they often are, translate into government policy.

[Chris Mason]

And that's the fascinating thing, isn't it? To what extent did Team Burnham conclude that this sort of thought, if you like over the last three or four days was a mistake and that they were ill disciplined and they shouldn't have done it, or does it become more of the strategy that he's willing to sort of talk openly about the concerns that he hears whilst not necessarily being able to at least instantly address them. And the curiosity with this was. I mean, the really curious thing with this was that this was an eve of becoming a Prime Minister interview, packed with color and a kind of sense of Andy Burnham, the man, et cetera, et cetera, on the eve of the sort of biggest week of his professional life. And the interview would have been perfectly readable without this detail. And in it appeared on a specific idea, albeit the specifics within the specific were still vague in terms of what he would do. Then on Monday, when he invited the Prime Minister, a few of us into the Downing Street Garden for a couple of questions from journalists, he sort of half walked back from it while still sort of saying he was keen on it, talking about how difficult it would be, followed by where we were by last night and then to this morning on camera, him saying that there's no commitment. So, yeah, it's just me. Interesting. Does he carry on doing this or does he rein it in?

[Adam Fleming]

I'm just thinking, though, Chris, from thinking back to when I was reading that Patrick McGuire interview, this is now about the 14th time we've quoted him in this podcast. He's got his own. It's because Andy Burnham himself then says in the interview, I don't want people to think I just want to put up taxes. I'm also looking for places where I can do a tax cut. And of course, unfreezing the income tax threshold at the bottom end would effectively be a tax cut for some people. And so it's not just that it came out of his mouth by accident, it was in the context of him trying to present himself as a maybe more balanced person when it came to tax and spend.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, absolutely. He was trying to reframe how he was perceived, wasn't he? I'm just reading the quote here. They're just characterizing me as a tax raiser. He said, well, again, it's never that simplistic, is it? Now, I suppose in his defense, he then had his idea about the VAT cut, which is a, which is a tax cut and is happening as opposed to this personal allowance idea that was kind of floated and then it floated out to sea and then floated back to harbour. So, yeah, it's just interesting, isn't it, when given how incredibly Careful. The last two Prime Ministers were in all of their public utterances, Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak. To the point sometimes where you came away, or certainly I did, having interviewed both of them many times, you know, wondering what you had and sometimes. Sometimes realizing there wasn't a vast amount. Yeah. Does Andy Burnham think that there is a. There is a merit in, in. In speaking, leaning into these things that he hears, whether it's on question time or anywhere else, and floating something as an aspiration, etc, etc, or does that just end up look like. Look like you're. You're commentating?

[Adam Fleming]

No. We've just got time for this. Henry. Your dream is coming true. You're doing a rip off edition of Celebrity Mastermind. No, Specialist.

[Chris Mason]

Ah.

[Henry Mance]

I came up with those subjects out of nowhere.

[Adam Fleming]

This is going to be. No, they came from somewhere. They came from your subconscious, which is, I'm told, the best way to choose your specialist subject. So here we go. I will ask a question and then Chris will ask a question. So there's a total of 2 points here.

[Henry Mance]

This is like a literal nightmare. This is like something that you would wake up from at 3:30 in the morning. Adam Fleming was asking me questions about Rafa Benitez and I couldn't remember any of the answers.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah, this is actually the end of your early shift and you've fallen asleep in the office. So this is a dream. Right. Okay. Which club did Rafael Benitez join after leaving Liverpool in 2010?

[Henry Mance]

Inter Milan.

[Adam Fleming]

Correct.

[Chris Mason]

What was the name of Rafael Benitez's long term assistant manager at Valencia and Liverpool, whose departure from Merseyside in 2007 left Benitez, quote, quietly furious Paco.

[Henry Mance]

Aah.

[Chris Mason]

Correct. Correct. 2 out of 10.

[Adam Fleming]

And your time is up.

[Henry Mance]

Ah, fantastic. It wasn't a nightmare, it was a dream.

[Chris Mason]

Yay.

[Adam Fleming]

Only another. What would you have to get? 12 points to match my record?

[Henry Mance]

You've been on it as well?

[Adam Fleming]

Yes.

[Chris Mason]

Have you been on it as well? I didn't know that.

[Henry Mance]

What was your specialist subject?

[Adam Fleming]

The Roger Moore James Bond film.

[Henry Mance]

Oh, nice. And how did you do it, Adam? Did you win?

[Adam Fleming]

I mean? Yes, which is good because I raise

[Chris Mason]

money for charity and you beat me on Paddy McGuiness's Weakest Link quiz as well. Oh dear. I'm two nil down here.

[Adam Fleming]

I wonder.

[Chris Mason]

What.

[Adam Fleming]

What's a quiz? We could all go on the newscast.

[Newscast Outro Host]

Christmas.

[Adam Fleming]

Actually, maybe we do need a quiz format. That's something to ponder. Right, I'll let you guys go and ponder what's happening in politics. Because we've run out of time. So I'll see you guys later.

[Newscast Outro Host]

Sir.

[Adam Fleming]

Bye.

[Unidentified Caller/Participant]

Bye.

[Chris Mason]

I'm off to try and find a question about Rafael Benicos that Henry can't get right. We failed there, guys.

[Henry Mance]

We failed.

[Adam Fleming]

See ya.

[Henry Mance]

See you guys.

[Chris Mason]

Well done, Chris.

[Henry Mance]

That was surreal.

[Chris Mason]

Thank you.

[ZipRecruiter Advertiser]

Thank you.

[Chris Mason]

Thank you.

[Adam Fleming]

Well done, Henry.

[Chris Mason]

Newscast, newscast from the BBC.

[Newscast Outro Host]

From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do, in the words of Chris Mason, ooze stamina. Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know. And don't forget, you can email us [e-mail] or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on [phone]. Be assured, I promise we listen to everyone.