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Labour's Essay Wars
00:28:35
Why are Labour’s biggest figures writing essays – and what does it mean for Starmer?
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- [00:00]
James Lyons
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- [00:06]
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- [00:47]
Laura Kuenssberg
Joe pike hello Kuensberg. How nice to be with you on this very hot day.
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Joe Pike
Very hot day. Just the sort of weather for an
- [00:54]
Laura Kuenssberg
essay crisis or just the kind of day to stay inside and read tens of thousands of words written by politicians,
- [01:00]
Joe Pike
which is what students do and school kids do all the time. That's when the exam season is, I suppose.
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Laura Kuenssberg
I suppose that's right. Studying in the park. Well, we have all and everybody in the political world has been doing quite a lot of studying this week because not one, not two, but three politicians decided that the best way to communicate with the world at large was to write some very long pieces of texts. I haven't seen that for a while.
- [01:25]
Joe Pike
No. Tony Blair, I think, wanted on Tuesday night, Wednesday morning to provoke a debate. And I think he's he certainly succeeded.
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Laura Kuenssberg
Certainly what he's done. Lots of discussion of Tony Blair's essay this week with Adam. Lots of discussion too of Andy Barnum's riposte to Tony Blair in the newspapers as well. But we're going to talk today about, weirdly, one of the maybe under discussed of all of these essays, the essay from the current prime minister who joined in with his substack. And to do that, we'll be talking to one of his former directors of communications as Keir Starmer tries to fight back. All on this Saturday's episode of Newscast, Newscast, Newscast from the BBC. Humanity's next great voyage begins.
- [02:08]
James Lyons
We are in the midst of a rupture.
- [02:10]
Laura Kuenssberg
Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.
- [02:13]
James Lyons
Six, seven. Yeah, it's supposed to be me as
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Laura Kuenssberg
a doctor Daddy has has also a special connotation. Ooh la la.
- [02:20]
Joe Pike
Thinking about it like a panther helped.
- [02:22]
James Lyons
Do we play music now or what do we do?
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Laura Kuenssberg
Hello, it's Laura in the studio.
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Joe Pike
It's Jo pike, also in the studio.
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Laura Kuenssberg
Now, before we introduce our guest, can you actually remember something like this happening before?
- [02:35]
Joe Pike
I can't know, but it does feel A bit sort of mid noughties and the advent of the blogosphere, when everyone had a blog and I would write a blog responding to your blog and everyone was talking about blogs and seemingly we are sort of getting a bit of that now in the media ecosystem with substacks. Substacks are becoming a big thing. And Keir Starmer actually wrote his riposte to Blair and Burnham and Streeting and everyone else on Substack.
- [03:01]
Laura Kuenssberg
And if you're not the initiated, Substack is essentially, it's an Internet platform where anybody can write something long, short, whatever they want and essentially have it published online in quite a sort of snazzy way. And you're right, it is kind of older age for, I suppose, thinkers. Some journalists have them, some celebs do them, some politicians do them. So, you know, check out my substack in the way, as you said, people might 20 years ago have said, oh, sign up to my blog here. But now you might say, for something that comes with pictures and little bits, look at my insta. But if you're trying to be a thoughtful, clever person and set out ideas, Substack is somewhere where there is an awful lot of debate going on, all sorts of things. And you can make money in the
- [03:43]
Joe Pike
creator economy, where people are not. Not being parts of big organization necessarily and being on YouTube or writing on substack, there is a way to make money from it. I don't think Keir Starmer is planning to make any money from this quite long intervention response to Tony Blair. And also, it's quite hard to find out. I certainly haven't found out how many people have read it. Presumably he's not too worried about everybody in the country, more concerned about Labour members and MPs.
- [04:12]
Laura Kuenssberg
Indeed. Well, let's. Let's talk about what he was trying to achieve with James Lyons, who was director of Communications under Keir Starmer for a while. James, hello.
- [04:21]
James Lyons
Good afternoon.
- [04:22]
Laura Kuenssberg
Now, just before we get into the substance of the substack, just give us a bit of context. When were you in Downing street and what was going on around the time that you were in Downing Street?
- [04:33]
James Lyons
Sure. Well, I think Jo is right. We're kind of in a bit of kind of fire up the DeLorean moment here, aren't we? It's not just the kind of way that the message is being communicated is also some of the players who are on the pitch. So you've got Tony Blair, Gordon Brown's been out recently, Alan Milburn's been in the headlines, Jack Shaw and David Blunkett have been out. It has been a real kind of, you know, am I mad, in a coma or back in time moment. But look, I was in Downing street for a year. I went in in October of 2024 after the difficult start that the government had and they got me into basically trying to sort out the strategic communications, which I did.
- [05:16]
Joe Pike
And he seemed to be going through the door just as Sue Gray was coming in the opposite direction. James, so presumably you entered Downing street where there already was some sense of maybe mistakes being made.
- [05:27]
James Lyons
Yeah, it was, you know, it was deliberate reset. There were a number of kind of personnel changes and actually, you know, we had a few good months. So if you remember, we launched the Plan for Change then, which took these kind of sprawling 10 year missions that Labour had in opposition and turned them into an actual plan for government and what the government was going to deliver in the first term. And for about six months after that, people kind of knew where we were heading. It provided some clarity and some focus. Then the local elections hit and yeah, things started to go awry.
- [06:04]
Laura Kuenssberg
So James, just before we get into this then as well, I think it's also interesting and important for people to know that before you did that you were a political journalist. We were in the lobby together a long time ago. You were a political journalist for years and years and years. And then also you were years and years. Yeah, yeah, I know we are both quite old now, no offense, I'm.
- [06:21]
James Lyons
It's nearly 10 years since I left, so I'm nearly 10 years clean.
- [06:24]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, what I was going to say is then you were working insult what I was going to say though. And this is, I think interesting to this conversation in a sense because then you were working at one of the big social media platforms, so you've got a kind of 360 degree view on. On comms, as people would call it, and comms in the 2000 and twenties. Right.
- [06:44]
James Lyons
Well, I very kindly say so. Certainly, certainly been around a long time and done some interesting things and it is fascinating, right, in a time when the kind of main medium is short form video that we sort of had three or four politicians picking up their quills in the last week to write to each other. And in my head, when I've been reading them and rereading them to, to speak to you today, I had my head the kind of voices of Prunella Scales and Patricia Routledge in, you know, Radio 4's Ladies of Letters, because there is that kind of passag tone to a lot of what is Going on.
- [07:23]
Joe Pike
That's so true.
- [07:25]
Laura Kuenssberg
Who's Prunella Scales in this? Tony Blair, Andy Barnum or Keir Starmer?
- [07:32]
James Lyons
Maybe Wes, who knows? I mean I thought, I thought the line I love in the Prime Minister's reposts was where he went on about, you know, obviously Tony Blair, Labour's great election winner and quotes it usually pays
- [07:48]
Laura Kuenssberg
to listen to him quills at dawn so why did you think that they have all done this? Because it is unusual as Joe and I were saying and you know, would you ever have said, ah, I know what we need now to really get things back on track, Prime Minister sit down at a keyboard and type out 5,000 words or whatever it is.
- [08:09]
James Lyons
Well, I mean it's fair to to say that this isn't the first substack. They launched Primus substack some while ago and actually I think it was a really good idea in the same way that, you know, I was working with a new media unit during my time in government and we were sitting the Prime Minister down with creators so that he was speaking to and I think this is one of my favorite pieces of comms while I was in there and I can say this because I had very little to do with it. When Universal Studios announced multi billion pound investment in Bedford in amongst all of the traditional media we did, the Prime Minister spent 10 minutes chatting to a guy who reviews roller coasters on TikTok. And that is going to get you to a whole audience you would never capture through government channels or traditional media. But what substack does is it allows you to talk to the kind of politics heavy community. So you've got the people who are politics like you can reach through the kind of social media piece. They don't follow all the kind of ins and outs in Westminster in the way that, you know, the three of us rather sadly do. But you do then have, you know, the party activists, mps ministers, people who are interested in politics who will kind of seek out something like this. And this was very much made for people who are politics heavy.
- [09:29]
Laura Kuenssberg
So what's he trying to say then?
- [09:31]
James Lyons
He's trying to say I'm not going anywhere. I mean that's the number one message that you have to take from this. You know he does admit some mistakes and he also very interestingly, you know, does say that the government has asked a lot of the business community in the form of the employers Nick's rise But he goes on to mount a defense of his government and you know, he lists what he sees as the achievements things like falling, waiting list, life, crime, help with child care. He does this just before he says that government isn't a tick box exercise, it's exercise. But then he does go on to talk as well about, you know, what motivates him. Not, not enough I don't think. But I've always thought one of the keys to the Prime Minister is his family's experience. And he talks in this piece about his brother Nick who you know, as he says, you know, had learning difficulties and had to really fight to be to be seen.
- [10:29]
Joe Pike
There's also James, what we might term as an excuses section and a regret section. The excuses he's talked about we've had the worst inheritance since at least Thatcher in 79, although of course it was an inheritance from Callaghan, from Labour there. And in terms of the regrets, he talks about being too negative early on about the winter fuel cuts, the national insurance rises, all of those really seem to be effectively Rachel Reeves is doing, talking about the sort of, the sort of subtle drive bys in these long pieces. Rachel Reeves doesn't come out very well from this, does she?
- [11:08]
James Lyons
Well look, a time when the main problem the government has is a lack of growth and a lack of money, the Chancellor is going to be put in a difficult position and I would argue actually some of the problems stem from the fact that they didn't do some of this stuff early enough and they certainly didn't mount an argument. So winter fuel, nobody objects to the principle of means testing winter fuel. I think you would struggle to find anyone in this country who thinks that Alan Sugar deserves a winter fuel payment. But what they didn't do was, well they made two mistakes. One, didn't argue the case for it, didn't set it up with a kind of independent commission or anything in the way that we've seen Pat McFadden do on kind of Help for Young People this week with Alan Milburn. And then they set the, the cutoff point too low. And the reason that they did that I wasn't around at the time is because DWP told them that the computers could only cope if it was at kind of the pension, pension credit level or at one of the kind of tax bans. Obviously that turned out to be wrong when challenged later on. But that's why they ended up going
- [12:10]
Joe Pike
too low and it took them a long time to do it as well. The U turn was 11 months after the original policy was announced. That does seem particularly bad because you just by the time Rachel Reeves had U turned in June 2025. It was two months after reform got in a lead in the opinion polls in terms of western Texas and have been in that position ever since.
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James Lyons
It was a terrible U turn, terribly executed. So I can speak frankly about this because somebody leaked my views while I was sitting in Downing street and I kept trying to explain internally that nobody was going to get any credit for this U turn. And actually what you needed to do was think what would Gordon Brown have done? And I'll tell you what I think Gordon Brown would have done. You had the winter fuel payments for pensioners and the pot for that had obviously shrunk a lot. Then you actually have help with fuel bills for low income families. I just mashed it together into a new benefit, given some more money back to pensioners, called it something completely new and claimed it was a huge success.
- [13:13]
Laura Kuenssberg
And why didn't they listen?
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James Lyons
Well, apparently that was too difficult.
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Laura Kuenssberg
But was that because the political will wasn't there and it was too difficult to suggest something new and complicated or was it because of officials were saying oh no, we can't do that because we've heard it.
- [13:26]
James Lyons
I won't go into the details but like it's just, it didn't, it didn't happen and government got no credit for it. What it did was what a lot of us in number 10 feared. It basically persuaded Labor MPS, mutinous Labor MPS that there was a magic money tree to reverse the welfare cuts. So it kind of, it poured petrol on the, on the welfare rebellion.
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Joe Pike
Was there another issue as well here? To be fair to Rachel Reeves that is sort of never really spoken about that she announced this policy on the same day as the Southport murders. So that horrific crime and the fallout from it in terms of riots and unrest across the country meant that maybe number 10 didn't realize there was this sort of low rumbling backlash because there was a much bigger, more distressing emotive news story in the headlines.
- [14:23]
James Lyons
While the attention on the day was obviously on those horrific crimes. I just don't, I mean I looking from the outside, when I heard that policy I knew immediately that there was going to be all hell was going to break loose around it.
- [14:36]
Joe Pike
But it took 11 months to 2 to u turn. So I mean I say, I say that point, James, because I remember talking to somebody at number 10 not long after Rachel Reeves had made that announcement and they, I mean they weren't referring to the other news at all but they were saying, you know, a couple of weeks in or we think we've sort of got past the worst has not been as much of a backlash as we think. And you can sort of trying to work out why they were thinking that maybe this, this played a part. But it does just seem startling and maybe indicative of the way kiss on Richelie's work that, that what you say you spotted immediately. They really didn't.
- [15:14]
James Lyons
Well, for whatever reason, you know, and I can see how it would have happened. You know, the treasury officials would have greeted the new government at the door and told them that we're on the kind of brink of some kind of Greek style, you know, financial meltdown if they didn't act quickly. And here are some options, you know. So I think that's probably what, what went on there.
- [15:37]
Laura Kuenssberg
It's really interesting, isn't it, to cast back because there are so many things that went wrong for a government in its early months when they had come in with this enormous majority, an enormous opportunity. But they've ended up in this position where Keir Starmer is finding himself, point by point, almost rejecting the criticisms of Labour's most successful ever leader. I just wonder, James, what do you really think is going on here inside the Labour Party? Is this just all a kind of warmup for what might be a leadership contest that's going to be a debate that runs on for the next few months. And that's why Tony Blair wanted to get kind of his version of the Labour Party out there into the public domain. And then Andy Burnham stepped in. Like, what is this really all about?
- [16:26]
James Lyons
Well, I, I mean, I find it absolutely fascinating what Tony Blair thought he was going to achieve. And look, you know, I'm a big fan of Tony Blair. He's a little bit left wing for me, but apart from that, he was, he was a great Prime Minister. But, like, it does seem a really counterproductive move here, I think. Who are the winners? Maybe Andy Boehm a bit possibly West Streeting. You know, you could put a conspiracy theory together that says Tony Blair did this so that west street could come out and criticize Tony Blair and try to endear himself to the bits of the Labour Party that aren't very endeared to him at the moment.
- [16:57]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, that's right. That's why it's so interesting because this
- [16:59]
James Lyons
is a power play, isn't it? Is saying Tony the Healer, he's brought all these people together and united them in saying that he is wrong. And, you know, I'm not, I'm not sure that if I was Pat McFadden, I would have welcomed his intervention on welfare. This week, because I think it'll make it even harder to sell to reform to Labour MPs. But I think what you're seeing is a kind of howl of frustration, actually from Tony Blair. And I think, you know, he probably feels that private messages haven't got through. You know, his institute have been talking about doing away with the kind of net zero agenda, for example, for a very long time. They produced previous reports around that and obviously that has not thus far gained traction inside, inside the government.
- [17:46]
Laura Kuenssberg
It's so interesting, isn't it? Just wondering what, what, what went through his mind? Because it's worth telling newscasters this is the first big political intervention that Tony Blair has made deliberately in this government's lifetime. And it's not for want of trying. I mean, I'm sure I will not be the only journalist who has asked Tony Blair and his team a million times, say, will you come on and talk about this? Will you come on and talk about the government? Will you come. And he's done some very carefully written newspaper pieces, particularly on things like artificial intelligence. He's done some joint pieces with William Hag and that kind of. Here we are, two former elder statesmen. But deciphering and trying to decode why this has been the moment is really interesting. And you wonder just, he thinks, look, there's going to be a debate about what Labor's for. He doesn't want the next job to go straight to Andy Barnum. He made the point very clearly. He thinks, hypothetically, it's crackers to be changing prime minister as often as this country has been doing it. And. But who the beneficiary of that will be, it's really, really hard to tell.
- [18:54]
Joe Pike
But he also, he did say when question questioned on the day that his piece came out, why are you doing this? One of the arguments he made was we need to talk more about policy and less about politics. And to be fair, if you do read all of these pieces, as I have, including the streeting, the sort of Kemi Badenok open letter to Blair, they do talk about policy a lot. And the fact that Tony Blair is advocating, or not advocating for, but questioning the existence of the triple lock on the state pension and the conversation we've had about winter fuel payments and what is sustainable long term, it has brought some of these key arguments that people behind the scenes have been having for years and that, to be fair, I think anyone who wants to be Labour leader might want to, for now, keep away from because they're just too naughty and controversial. If you want to win an election.
- [19:47]
Laura Kuenssberg
But Andy Barrett. Sorry, James, go.
- [19:49]
James Lyons
We can come on to the merits or otherwise of some sort of battle of ideas in the Labour Party. Well, it's in government in a minute. Personally, I think it'd be a disaster. But one of the really interesting things here is we've kind of seen a kind of almost transcendent moment for Tony Blair here. He got dangerously close to saying the quiet bit out loud in one of his interviews this week. We said, I don't care. And you could hear the words coming, whether it's the Tories or Labor who, who enact this stuff. Right.
- [20:17]
Joe Pike
I think it's because the existential challenges he painted in terms of geopolitical changes, but also technological change around AI, he believes is. Is so serious and so massive that you need. That you need somebody to make long term, serious choices and decisions.
- [20:34]
Laura Kuenssberg
But I wonder also if really what we've seen as James, as you say, a bit of a howl of pain from some of Labour's past greats that this government has not got a track record of using a once in a generation, enormous majority. Well, you know, only governments with enormous majorities arguably can do big, hard things. And you can hear it from Tony Blair very clearly. I think you could hear it from Alan Milburn slightly less clearly that there's a deep frustration that this government didn't come in and as the government did in 1997, came in and very quickly did some big, bold, radical things. Love them or hate them, that did happen in 1997. And this government is still in the position on all sorts of things, whether it's young people, whether it's social care, doing reviews, looking at policies, thinking about policies. Welfare are not having a reform of that in the King's Speech. And I just wonder, James, you know, as a keen observer of the Labour Party, where do you think that level of frustration with Keir Starmer's government is sort of sitting on a, on a, on a, on a frustrationometer, you know, out of ten.
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James Lyons
Sorry, with who? With the public or within the party. All right, with the sort of traveling. Wilbree, who popped up over the last few weeks, is fairly, fairly stone. Still on tour, some of the old stages. Although I have to say, you know, Tony Blair's, I think almost, you know, twice the age that Tom Petty was when they got, they got together. Look, clearly one of the problems for the government is there's a huge amount of frustration within its own ranks, right? People within cabinet ministers, MPs and in, you know, party activists. So Yeah, I think it's pretty high.
- [22:22]
Joe Pike
And the problem presumably as well for Keir Starmer, if we take a step back, he can write his long response to Tony Blair and take those sort of subtle swipes pipes at Blair and others. But Tony Blair is the longest serving Labour Prime Minister in history and all the signs so far are that Keir Starmer is going to be the shortest serving Labour Prime Minister in history.
- [22:45]
Laura Kuenssberg
James, can you see a situation if Andy Burnham wins, that Keir Starmer stays as Prime Minister?
- [22:51]
James Lyons
No. Can you see a situation and I think if Andy Burnham wins in Makerfield, there is a very, very strong chance that he will be in Downing street before the summer recess without a leadership contest.
- [23:06]
Laura Kuenssberg
And if Andy Burnham does not win in Maker Field, is there a chance, do you think, that Keir Starmer can stay as Prime Minister in that circumstance?
- [23:15]
James Lyons
There is a chance, yeah. There is a chance. I don't know how big that chance is. I think there will still be an attempt to unseat him. I think, you know, frankly, if Andy Burnham can't win Makerfield, there are some very fundamental questions about whether the Labour Party is still a viable political vehicle.
- [23:34]
Joe Pike
And talking of Makerfield, Robert Kenyon is of course the Reform UK candidate and there's a full list of all the different candidates on the BBC website.
- [23:42]
Laura Kuenssberg
I think it's time. I've been waiting to say this for ages and I haven't said this on air yet and I'm going to say it now. Could it be Makerfield or Breakerfield's? It was only a matter of time. James. Enjoy the Sun.
- [23:55]
James Lyons
I feel privileged to have been there to hear that.
- [23:58]
Joe Pike
I think you could have a job as a sub on a tabloid newspaper.
- [24:03]
Laura Kuenssberg
I think that would keep me out of trouble. James, thank you very much indeed for joining us on a sunny, hot afternoon. We'll let you go off out into the sunshine or get on with reading essays, perhaps. Thank you.
- [24:12]
Joe Pike
Thanks.
- [24:12]
James Lyons
Champions League.
- [24:14]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, of course, yeah. Well, that's going to be a huge story, isn't it? Well, James, thank you very much. So now, football. You looked slightly bemused there when James said Champions League. You looked at me.
- [24:23]
Joe Pike
No, no, I'm aware of that. I've just cycled through London and you just get. You think you're getting beeped by horns and you think, is it my cycling? No, it's not. It's just Arsenal first.
- [24:33]
Laura Kuenssberg
A very, very, very big football match later today. We're recording at quarter to three. The match, I think, kicks off at five o' clock and that result, whatever happens will be an absolutely enormous news story later on. We are probably will me particularly one of the least qualified people in the world to talk about it. But just James is going to go off and watch the football. The Prime Minister of course, though we'll be watching that very closely. He professional Arsenal fan, but we don't know if he's going. There was a contra.
- [25:01]
Joe Pike
He's not going.
- [25:01]
Laura Kuenssberg
He's not going to parade.
- [25:03]
Joe Pike
Actually, the parade is not that far from his Dunning street home. I mean it's in North London. So you could, you think he could watch from a distance or maybe with his security, I'm sure he won't. But if you've, if you've waited 22 years, I think it is to win the Premiership, you want to be part of that party because it's so. It's so much a part of his sort of being and his identity being an Arsenal fan that.
- [25:25]
Laura Kuenssberg
Well, we will see.
- [25:26]
Joe Pike
Take the wins when you can. I'm not sure there are.
- [25:30]
Laura Kuenssberg
I mean if he turned up and they lost, then he was the unlucky charm. If he turned up and they won. But take back the parade. Well, we'll see if they win. I'm sure they'll probably invite them to down all to Downey street on Monday to go and have their fun. Anyway, we will see. Tomorrow is Sunday. You're not doing Broadcasting House or are you doing broadcast?
- [25:47]
Joe Pike
No, I'm not.
- [25:48]
Laura Kuenssberg
So I won't ask you what you're doing on your program tomorrow. So maybe you should ask me and then I can announce the thing tomorrow.
- [25:53]
Joe Pike
Laura, it's Sunday. Anything worth watching on your show?
- [25:56]
Laura Kuenssberg
Oh, well, someone that you know quite a lot about because you've written a book about. Oh, Nicola Sturgeon. Ring any bells?
- [26:03]
Joe Pike
Yes. This sounds like a major coup and scoop of an exclusive interview.
- [26:09]
Laura Kuenssberg
So this morning Nicholas Sturgeon agreed to do a very long interview with us.
- [26:15]
Joe Pike
How long?
- [26:16]
Laura Kuenssberg
Nearly an hour. And tomorrow on BBC1 or newscast all over the place, we will broadcast Nicola Sturgeon's first full interview about the very serious financial scandal which engulfed the SNP for years, which will see her husband likely to be sentenced to a jail sentence. Peter Morrow pled guilty this week to embezzling 400000 pounds from the Scottish National Party. And up until now, well, she's always denied that she did anything wrong. Nicola Sargent has not spoken at length about what she knew, what she did and what she thinks of her former husband. And we had a long conversation and covered all of those issues. I would say she is emotional but defiant and don't miss it tomorrow.
- [27:08]
Joe Pike
And it is one of those stories that has this week. Even if I think UK white people didn't know much about Peter Morrow, it really has captured the public imagination far beyond politics because it's sort of about relationships and family and what you know about the person you share a.
- [27:24]
Laura Kuenssberg
And motor homes and how can a pepper pot cost £3,000? I mean, you're right. This is also just. It's a. It's a huge story and it's a huge issue. And not least because she was one of the most powerful people in the country for years and years and years. And she's also somebody who many people really looked up to and admired Nicholas Sturgeon. And her political career ended in a very painful way. There are also other people who have always found Nicola Sturgeon someone that they cannot get on with. And so she was hugely admired by many fellow politicians. I mean, even during the Brexit years around Europe, you know, she was seen as a really talented politician, without question one of the most talented politicians of her generation. So that's one of the reasons why this story has become so huge. But it is a real mashup of the political and the deeply personal. And she talks about all of the aspects of what's happened in our interview that will be across the BBC tomorrow.
- [28:25]
Joe Pike
I'm excited to watch. Listen, all of it.
- [28:28]
Laura Kuenssberg
Will we be reunited tomorrow?
- [28:30]
Joe Pike
Yes.
- [28:30]
Laura Kuenssberg
Excellent. Well, enjoy the rest of your Saturday. Thank you, newscasters for being with us this afternoon and we will look forward to speaking to you tomorrow.
- [28:37]
Joe Pike
Let's get to the football. Laura, quick
- [28:41]
James Lyons
newscast.
- [28:42]
Laura Kuenssberg
Newscast from the BBC.
- [28:44]
Podcast Outro Host
Thank you, sir. Thank you so much for making it to the soggy bottom of this episode of Newscast. You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know. And don't forget, you can email us anytime. Newscastbc.co.uk or if you want, send us a WhatsApp on 033-01-2394.
- [29:12]
Laura Kuenssberg
Goodbye.
- [29:24]
James Lyons
If you're into tech, you'll love this. TikTok is a live lab where users post instant reviews of the latest trends. Download TikTok and check it out.