Starmer Says He’s Staying

Summary

---

Newscast – "Starmer Says He’s Staying"

Date: May 12, 2026
Hosts: Adam Fleming, Alex Davies-Jones, Chris Mason
BBC News

---

Episode Overview

In this rapidly evolving episode, the Newscast team unpacks a moment of acute political crisis for the Labour government and Prime Minister Keir Starmer. Following a spate of high-profile resignations and calls for Starmer to stand down, the hosts break down the atmosphere inside and outside 10 Downing Street, examine the tactical plays within the Labour Party, and look ahead to the political implications for Westminster and the country as Parliament prepares for the King’s Speech.

The tone throughout is energetic, sometimes witty, but rooted in clear-eyed analysis of the unfolding power struggles and personal dramas at the top of British politics.

---

Key Discussion Points & Segments

Setting the Scene: Downing Street Drama

[04:17]

• Alex Davies-Jones describes an "extraordinary, chaotic" morning at Downing Street as Cabinet ministers arrive and depart under intense media scrutiny.
  • “It was a bit chaotic, to be blunt. It was very noisy, it was a bit frantic...”
• Ministers unusually speak to the press en masse in an attempt to shore up Starmer’s position—something that "does not normally happen."
• MPs are split between open dissatisfaction, silent unease, and Cabinet loyalty.

[05:12]

• Context: The crisis was precipitated by a candid conversation between Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood and Starmer about his future.
• The Cabinet is divided: those who think toppling Starmer is “mad,” those pushing for a departure timetable, and those hoping the problem just goes away.

---

Numbers Game and Party Divisions

[12:00]

• Out of roughly 400 Labour MPs:
  • ~100 publicly say Starmer should go,
  • ~100 support him,
  • ~200, mostly office holders, stay silent.
• Two “columns” are forming: one for immediate change, one for stability.
  • “...then there's this chunk in the middle that we have [not] heard anything from yet.” (Alex Davies-Jones, [12:55])

---

Cabinet and Ministerial Resignations

[14:04]

• Four junior ministers resigned on Tuesday morning:

  • Miata Farnbola (Communities)
  • Jess Phillips (Home Office)
  • Alex Davies Jones (Victims)
  • Zubir Ahmed (Health)

• Chris Mason underscores their importance:

  • “It's always difficult for a Prime Minister to lose ministers on a day where you lose four ministers. That's an awkward moment without question.” ([14:25])

[15:21]

• Notable Resignation Letter Quotes:
  • Jess Phillips: “Decency is vital, calm curiosity is also needed, but so too are fight and drive required...Standing up and being counted can't always be workshopped.”
    • Analysis: This is seen as a criticism of Starmer’s technocratic leadership, suggesting he lacks the “punch” and passion needed.

[16:53]

• Miata Farnbola (interview):
  • “What was really clear from talking to my constituents was that the Prime Minister had lost their trust and confidence and they did not believe that he could deliver the scale and the pace of change that we have a mandate for.”

[19:56]

• Chris Mason reminds listeners how agonizing (and human) these public resignations are—especially considering loyalty and the personal fallout for those involved.

---

Leadership Challenge: "Put Up or Shut Up"

[09:25], [27:23]

• Chris Mason: “You know what the rules are. You need 81 people to sign up to a campaign for a leadership challenge. And if you've got those numbers, show us them.”

• Starmer’s message mirrors John Major's famous “put up or shut up” challenge in 1995.

  • “That's basically what Keir Starmer said today in pretty coded terms...” – Alex Davies-Jones ([27:23])

• Parallel drawn to Boris Johnson’s 2022 downfall—which saw Cabinet ministers resigning en masse (this is not quite at that level, but does echo Labour’s own history under Jeremy Corbyn).

---

The Role of Key Figures & Next Steps

[11:56], [31:25]

• Focus shifts to potential challengers:
  • Wes Streeting (Health Secretary): Seen as prime contender, but whether he challenges now is a real crossroads.
    • If he moves, it's a gamble for his career; if he waits, he could miss his chance.
  • Angela Rayner: Watching developments, prepared to "stick her hat in the ring" if a contest occurs.
    • “She is clearly a key Westminster cliche word alert coming: power broker in the parliamentary Labour Party.” (Chris Mason, [31:25])
  • Andy Burnham: Also being mentioned as a player to watch.

---

Party Division and the Reality of Governing

[22:12], [24:17], [24:49]

• Unlike Johnson’s situation, the resignations haven’t reached the top Cabinet level yet.
• This type of crisis is not without precedent for Labour—compare to the Corbyn era (Owen Smith challenge; mass shadow cabinet resignations), but being in government makes the stakes much higher.
• “The nature of public life is that these things play out in public... when there's a perception that the leadership is the reason why you seem to be wildly unpopular.” (Chris Mason, [25:47])

---

Looking Ahead: King’s Speech and Political Consequences

[32:33]

• The next day brings the ceremonial King’s Speech, outlining the legislative agenda. Starmer will lead even as his authority is questioned.
• Practical issues: Unrest in the governing party makes passing legislation and maintaining stability more challenging.

[35:46]

• Policy preview:

  • A focus on improving UK-EU relations.
  • No new welfare reform bill yet—reviews ongoing.
  • Nationalization of British Steel trailed as a central policy.

• “If and when we get to a contest and there's a new Prime Minister, a key element...will be delivering...the manifesto upon which Labour won that general election.” (Chris Mason, [34:45])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chris Mason on Parliamentary drama:

  • “Every actor in this drama is not in control of what happens. They're in control of their own judgments, but they don't know where things are going to end up. And so they're making those leaps without being certain...” ([20:03])

• David Lammy (Deputy PM) urging unity:

  • “We must put country before party. The only person that benefits from the Labour Party naval gazing in this way is Nigel Farage and the populist right...No one seems to have the names to stand up against Keir Starmer. And for those who are suggesting that he should stand down, they should say which candidate would be better. Let's get on with the business of running this country and government.” ([29:14])

• Jess Phillips (resignation letter):

  • “Standing up and being counted can't always be workshopped.” ([15:21])

• Miata Farnbola (minister):

  • “The Prime Minister had lost their trust and confidence and they did not believe that he could deliver the scale and the pace of change that we have a mandate for…” ([16:53])

---

Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 04:17 | Chaos at Downing Street as Cabinet meets | | 05:12 | Context: Conversations about leadership with Starmer | | 06:59 | Ministers shore up Starmer in public | | 12:00 | The numbers game: MPs for/against/undecided | | 14:04 | Discussion of resignations, their importance | | 15:21 | Jess Phillips resignation letter analysis | | 16:53 | Miata Farnbola explains resignation; loss of trust | | 19:56 | Chris reflects on the human side of resigning | | 22:12 | Comparison to Boris Johnson’s cabinet collapse | | 24:17 | This sort of row not new for Labour (Corbyn era) | | 27:23 | “Put up or shut up”—historical and current parallels | | 29:14 | David Lammy’s unifying statement | | 31:25 | Angela Rayner’s potential role in a leadership contest | | 32:33 | King’s Speech preview and Westminster atmosphere | | 35:46 | Policy hints: EU, welfare, British Steel nationalization |

---

Tone, Style, and Final Thoughts

The episode blends detailed, accessible analysis with the conversational style and cultural references Newscast is known for:

• Frequent pop-culture allusions (e.g., Devil Wears Prada 2, John Major, Mel C./Spice Girls).
• Hosts’ on-the-ground perspectives layered with historical political context.

The message: Starmer is wounded but defiant, the Labour Party is deeply divided, and the whole political system is on edge, with the outcome very much hanging in the balance—just as the government prepares to present its agenda to Parliament.

---

Summary by BBC Newscast. For further resources, feedback, or to join the community, see links in the episode description.

Transcript

[Adam Fleming]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Jan from Toyota (advertisement)]

Hey campers, it's Jan from Toyota. This summer we're headed to Camp Toyota and the fun starts now. We're kicking things off by kicking up mud. Jump in campers. We're going off roading in a 4Runner. Next we're heading to the hot springs in Arav 4. And finally, park your tundras and Tacomas around the campfire because we're roasting marshmallows. The summer starts here.

[Toyota Dealer Announcement (advertisement)]

Dealer inventory may vary so you're participating Toyota dealer For details at Bed Hand Stream first Toyota. Let's go places.

[Washington's Get Prepaid Tuition Plan Advertiser]

Planning for your children's future is a wonderful adventure. Just when you think you have it all figured out, time for school. It all changes. With Washington's get prepaid tuition plan, you can prepare your child for the next step in their educational journey after high school, whatever that might be.

[Chris Mason]

You ready? We're ready.

[Washington's Get Prepaid Tuition Plan Advertiser]

Learn more about WA 529 and get at 529.wa.gov

[Adam Fleming]

Alex, I can't tell if I should start talking to you or if you're concentrating on something on your laptop or would you like me to talk? Or why don't you talk for a

[Alex Davies-Jones]

bit and I'll join in?

[Adam Fleming]

Well, I so yesterday, the newscast, we recorded the bit before the music and we dropped it because we then did a different version that felt more appropriate for the moment. But the dropped version included me me explaining the Devil Wears Prada too, which

[Alex Davies-Jones]

you, I think had gone to see

[Adam Fleming]

on Sunday and I haven't yet seen.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

So no spoilers.

[Adam Fleming]

And Wes Streeting also went to see it on Sunday. Not with me.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

No, he went with Peter Kyle, one of his political friends.

[Adam Fleming]

Yes, and friends, the business secretary. And I was saying, oh, actually the Devil wears Prada 2 is an appropriate film for this moment because it's all about a historic institution where the long term head of it is facing a challenge to their authority.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Ah, parallels.

[Adam Fleming]

Yes. But because you haven't seen it and many newscasters will not have seen it and may want to see it when it arrives on streaming, I can't tell you how it ends. And so I can't tell you how appropriate it is as a metaphor for this moment.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Can you just tell us, is it an appropriate ending?

[Adam Fleming]

Without giving anything away, it depends whether you think Keir Starmer is Meryl Streep and wears Street Singer's Emily Blunt.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Okay, I feel like I'm gonna have to go and watch it just so we can finish this conversation. Even in private.

[Adam Fleming]

I'M not in the pocket of the marketing team of devil warriors. Prada 2. It was a piece of Kyle that brought this up. Anyway, do you know what? Here is a reference we can all collect around Anita.

[Chris Mason]

That is Keir Starmer saying to the Cabinet and then through us to Labour MPs.

[David Lammy]

Come and have a go if you

[Chris Mason]

think you're hard enough.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Don't you miss that?

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah. So that was Henry doing the shift in Downing street before you then did the shift in Downing street with our colleague Anita from the news channel saying that basically paraphrasing what Keir Starmer's approach, this whole leadership challenge was quoting Mel C. From the Spice Girls to Oasis.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Do you think Henry knew he was quoting Mel C. Or do you think it was just a phrase that popped into his head? Because I feel like your pop culture knowledge would have allowed you to realize that was a Mel C. Quote. Not everybody might have picked up on that, including me.

[Adam Fleming]

Well, Chris was also there and he's also here. Hello, Chris.

[Chris Mason]

I reckon Henry says that down dark alleys every Saturday night. That's just the way it is. You know, there's no denies as well as no doubt a lifelong. A lifelong appreciation of. Of Mel C. Right, let's get on

[Adam Fleming]

with this episode of Newscast.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Newscast, Newscast from the BBC.

[Chris Mason]

Humanity's next great voyage begins.

[Adam Fleming]

We are in the midst of a rupture.

[Chris Mason]

Nostalgia will not bring back the old order.

[David Lammy]

Six, seven.

[Kraken Pro Advertisement]

Yeah, it's supposed to be me as a doctor.

[Chris Mason]

Daddy has. Has also a special connotation.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Thinking about it like a panto helped. Do we play music now or what do we do?

[Adam Fleming]

Hello, it's Adam in the newscast studio.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

And it's Alex in the newscast studio.

[Chris Mason]

And it is Chris at Westminster.

[Adam Fleming]

And we are recording this episode of newscast on Tuesday 12 May at 6:48, I think in the evening. Yeah, it's definitely the evening. Although time has been very elastic the last few days. So, Alex, I'll give you the first word on this. Okay. You were in Downing street this morning when everything was unfolding, or not unfolding, depending on your point of view. Just sort of sum up what it was like being there.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

It was a bit chaotic, to be blunt. It was very noisy, it was a bit frantic. Because what we basically had was after we'd had this kind of, I don't know, when you call it a drip, a trickle, a flow, whatever, of Labour mps coming out and basically expressing their very clear dissatisfaction with the Prime Minister. He had this meeting of the Cabinet this morning. So you basically had in Downing Street, Cabinet minister after Cabinet minister walking up the street, getting hollowed up by journalists, trying to get a sense of where they were on the authority and position of the Prime Minister. Then they all went in for the Cabinet meeting and then they all came out. And the kind of extraordinary thing there was that a bunch of them, not all of them, I should say, but a bunch of Cabinet ministers then came out and walked over to the waiting hordes of crack cameras and journalists and spoke to them to shore up the Prime Minister's position. And just to say that does not normally happen.

[Adam Fleming]

Well, and we'll talk about that in a second. But just to do a little bit of rewinding and a bit of context, Chris, on Monday evening, you and some of our other colleagues at Westminster had got wind of the fact that Shabana Mahmood, the Home Secretary, had had some kind of candid conversation with the PM about his future. And so that was the backdrop to this Cabinet meeting, which had been dubbed make or break.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, the backdrop, to my mind, as I was listening to your question there, Adam was trying to remember when Monday evening was, and I realised it was actually last night. Yeah. So that is what we learned last night, that Shabana Mahmood, and I don't think she was on her own, were making that argument to the Prime Minister. I think there was kind of three kind of groupings within the Cabinet in those conversations. There were those who think the whole idea of toppling him now is completely mad. There are those who think that he ought to set out a timetable to depart. I don't think there were that many of them, but there were some and there were others. By the way, I'm choking on the. On the old plane trees of Westminster. That has got into my brain. I've just dashed back from Downing Street. It sits there right in your throat. I read today someone suggested marshmallows are the solution. I might have to try that.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Do you?

[Chris Mason]

Yeah.

[Adam Fleming]

Anyway, carry on.

[Chris Mason]

Anyway, and. And there were those. And there were then also some Cabinet ministers who would rather this not all be happening. But I think we're having conversations with the Prime Minister about how he might manage this. You know, what do you do in this situation where you've got so many people kind of calling for you to go? So that was the backdrop, if you like, to what we were seeing this morning when ministers filed in for the Cabinet meeting and then, as Alex says, kind of piled out and at least some of them volunteered to come over and talk to us, which just doesn't happen normally. And basically they were trying to shore him up.

[Adam Fleming]

And, Alex, the message, the script from those people that did speak to the

[Alex Davies-Jones]

cameras was, yeah, it was basically, we have to get on with the business of governing. And they were coming out to say, the Prime Minister's got my support, he's got a job to do. There are more important things going on in the world, I paraphrase. And we've got to crack on and do this job. And that is effectively what the Prime Minister, we are told, had said at the Cabinet meeting. So what happens is you get a little readout of what was apparently said at the meeting. And it was a kind of few lines from what the Prime Minister, we are told, said. And he said the same. He said, look, there hasn't been a Labor leadership contest triggered. I appreciate the last few days and his words have been destabilizing, but effectively, I've got a job to do and I'm going to crack on and do it. And you heard that echoed from the Cabinet ministers that did choose to come over and speak to the media, but. But not all of them did. And I think that is just worth reflecting because as Chris said, it wasn't just Shabana Mahmoud, as far as we understand it, who had had words with the Prime Minister expressing some concerns about his position.

[Adam Fleming]

And, Chris, you were there for all of that unfolding. You must have had your one. One ear on what the Prime Minister's allies were saying and then one eye on who was darting out Downing street without talking to you.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, it was one of those ones where you quite like a sort of owl like kind of movement in your neck, because you're constantly sort of one eye is on and the other eye is trying to maintain a look at various doors, gateways and all the rest of it. Because there's the way that the cars come into Downing Street. There's a gate that you can walk out on foot. At the back, obviously, there's the door of number 10. There's a little way that cars can pull off down the side and you can go in through number nine, which the Home Secretary chose to do this morning. And. And avoid any hollowing. I like the word hollow, Alex, by the way. I'm gonna bank that another Spice Girls reference from the likes of. From the likes. Is it?

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah. They had a song called Hollow.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Did they?

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah.

[Chris Mason]

Album track?

[Adam Fleming]

I think so. Yeah. Anyway, anyway.

[Chris Mason]

And I. Sorry, I sent us off down these tones. Yeah.

[Adam Fleming]

The thing is, Wes Streeting, the Health Secretary, and lots of people are saying, oh, the the point that all of this was building to was him challenging the Prime Minister. He left Downing street without saying anything. But there was a slight plot twist in that Peter Kyle, his mate, who he went to the cinema with on Sunday, was one of the Minister coming out and being supportive of the Prime Minister, which was a massive clue that there wasn't going to be a West Streeting leadership challenge, at least not now.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah, but what we had at the heart of what the Prime Minister and those coming out, making those arguments, at the heart of that, what you had was a tactical play, if you like, by Downing street, who are clearly in a desperate, perilous position, but saying to West Streeting and others kind of put up or shut up, you know, you know what the rules are. You need 81 people to sign up to a campaign for a leadership challenge. And if you've got those numbers, show us them. And then there'd be a contest. But in the absence of that, there isn't a contest. So we'll crack on is the argument that's being made. And I think for Wed Streeting, it's a really kind of crucial crossroads, this. You know, if he goes for it, then the prize is the premiership. If he doesn't, then does it pass by, but then if he does, there's also, of course, a jeopardy, a risk that it. That it. That things kind of go wrong and you blow up your political career. He's always made the argument that whilst he is prepared for a leadership challenge, he would do it at a point where he felt that the kind of government of Keir Starmer was unsalvageable, or you reached a point where there was a contest that was happening anyway. And now what is unsalvageable is in the eye of the beholder. But the Prime Minister's view, very much so, is we're cracking on. It'd be interesting to see. And maybe it's happened by the time newscasters are listening to this conversation. Him appoint new ministers to replace those who have resigned. They were very speedy on Monday night, announcing the new ministerial aides, parliamentary private secretaries to replace those ministerial aides who had resigned. So who was going to get the various gigs around governments who have resigned? Cause that's, if you like, an act of defiance, an act of a desire to continue and crack on. And meanwhile we're streising. Andy Burnham. Any others have to work out how things look and the kind of political lie of the land and what will happen on Wednesday morning in advance of the state opening of Parliament is The Prime Minister and Wes Streeting are going to meet now. That's happening because various ministers asked to see the Prime Minister after the Cabinet meeting this morning, which talked about lots of things, but not this, and the Prime Minister wasn't up for it then. It's in that context that he's seeing Mr. Streeting in the morning and then you wonder what happens after that. There's likely.

[Adam Fleming]

Because there's lots of things that mean this might not be a High Noon moment for the.

[Chris Mason]

No, I mean completely. And at the moment, what you've got, you've got 400, roughly 400 Labour MPs, and very roughly, you've got 100 ish saying the Prime Minister should go. You've got 100 ish publicly saying, no, he shouldn't. And then you've got 200 ish, quite a few who are in government themselves who are not saying anything. And you do have. And we've heard it through the 100 who've signed a letter saying, please, not now. Some who are just exasperated, who hate the idea of having to go back to their patches and defend what people might say is kind of chaos.

[Adam Fleming]

Alex, there's a few strands to untangle there from what Chris was saying. Not that you were talking in a tangled way. Chris, I'm just now zooming in on some particular subplots of what you were talking about there. First of all, this jewel of the numbers, there's basically two columns now, isn't there, where we can count the numbers of. Just explain how that's working out.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Yeah. So what we've had really, since the election results is a number of Labour MPs coming out and either saying they think the Prime Minister should go now or they should set a timetable for his departure. And we were discussing on newscast on Monday about how the number of those MPs actually now was stretching across different wings of the party. It wasn't just one certain section then. What we had today was a letter or a statement from 100 Labor MPS who were saying, no, not now, do not go Prime Minister. We don't think that this is the right time for some, you know, infighting, internal contest. We need stability. We want him to be able to crack on with the job. So they're the two kind of columns stacking up. And as Chris says, you know, very broadly speaking, they're kind of pretty much equal. And then there's this chunk in the middle that we have heard anything from yet. It is worth saying, just in terms of the numbers, we're keeping an eye on them because it obviously gives you a sense of where the party is at and it is the parliamentary Labor Party that are going to have a key role in deciding the next steps, whatever they may be in this process. But talking about numbers, none of that applies in, in terms of somebody challenged the Prime Minister unless they all put their names to one candidate. And we are not at that stage just now.

[Adam Fleming]

And then, Chris, the other thread you mentioned there was the resignation of some junior ministers. So this was a notch ministerial ladder because the resignations on Monday had been of PPS's, the Parliamentary Secretaries. Which is the lowest rung, this is the next rung up, which was junior ministers. There were four of them. How would you characterize those, those four resignations?

[Chris Mason]

Significant. It's always difficult for a Prime Minister to lose ministers on a day where you lose four ministers. Let's just park everything else. That is a. That is an awkward moment without question. And then particularly if they're parting shot and the usual ritual is a letter is a pretty devastating critique of your governing style. And both Miata Farm Buller, who was the first minister to resign, Communities Minister. Yeah. At about half past nine this morning. Her critique was pretty spiky. Jess Phillips Home Office Minister very spiky in her critique. It's just a sense of things not being achieved, not getting things done. And Alex, there was some further, a couple of other ministerial resignations this afternoon.

[Adam Fleming]

Yeah. Alex Davies Jones, who's the victims minister, and Zubir Ahmed who is a health minister. And Alex, you wanted to quote some bits of Jess Phillips.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Yes.

[Adam Fleming]

Departing.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

I mean just Phillips is quite a high figure, high profile figure in the Labor Party. This is not to say that not any ministerial resignation matters, of course, they all do. But Jesse is a pretty well known character and a lot has been made about something that she said in there, which is that she said that she'd been advocating for a bit of technology that would stop children taking naked photos of themselves. And she was talking about the delay in that, getting that done. I'm not a technology expert, I don't know any of the details about that or the reasons around that. But there was a line in her letter that really stood out to me and it was quite near the end and it's when she said decency is vital, calm curiosity is also needed, but so too are fight and drive required. Talking about the Prime Minister's character. So she's effectively saying, you're a decent guy, but I don't think you've got enough punch in you and she goes on to say, standing up and being counted can't always be workshopped. The reason I pull it out is because I think this is a criticism that you hear about Keir Starmer, even from people that do support him as Prime Minister. He's a decent man, but has he got the fight for this? You know, you can't always do this in a kind of technocratic way. You've got to somehow be able to show the passion and take the lead and take people with you. It's that sort of bit that you hear from, yes, critics of Keir Starmer, but even supporters of him who really, really want him to do well. It's that thing that they want to see a little bit more of. And I think that line might resonate with some people in the party not saying shift their positions, but there just may well be a resonance.

[Adam Fleming]

And Chris, you had a conversation with Miata Fanbula, the communities minister, who was the first person on the ministerial rung to go over the top on Tuesday morning. And let's have a little listen to some of that conversation now.

[Miata Farnbola (minister interview)]

I've spent hours on the doorsteps. I've had hundreds and hundreds of conversations. Really, really tough, brutal conversations. And what was really clear from talking to my constituents was that the Prime Minister had lost their trust and their confidence and they did not believe that he could deliver the scale and the pace of change that we have a mandate for and that my community deserves. And in the end, that was the thing that drove my decision. It's a hard thing to do, but I think it's the right thing to do.

[Jan from Toyota (advertisement)]

Hey, campers, it's Jan from Toyota. This summer we're headed to Camp Toyota and the fun starts now. We're kicking things off by kicking up mud. Jump in, campers. We're going off roading in a 4Runner. Next, we're heading to the hot springs in Arav 4. And finally, park your Tundras and Tacomas around the campfire because we're roasting marshmallows. There's dumber start here.

[Toyota Dealer Announcement (advertisement)]

Dealer inventory may vary, so your participating Toyota dealer for details. Event hand stream first Toyota. Let's go places.

[Kraken Pro Advertisement]

CFTC regulated spot margin trading is now live on Kraken Pro Trade with up to 10 times leverage, long or short, your crypto as collateral. The conviction was always there. Now the platform is too. Unleash your trading potential. Download Kraken Pro on the App Store or Google Play. Spot margin trading involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for everyone. Leverage magnifies gains and losses. View Ninja Trader disclosures for more information on brokerage surfaces. Geographic restrictions apply.

[Adam Fleming]

Terms apply.

[Meaningful Beauty Advertiser]

Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types. And it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the Amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of melonleaf stem cell technology. Its melon leaves stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just $49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All that [e-mail] hey campers, it's Jan from Toyota.

[Jan from Toyota (advertisement)]

This summer we're headed to Camp Toyota and the fun starts now. We're kicking things off by kicking up mud. Jump in campers. We're going off roading in a four runner. Next we're heading to the hot springs in a RAV4 and finally, park your tundras and Tacomas around the campfire because we're roasting marshmallows. Dear Tundra, start here.

[Toyota Dealer Announcement (advertisement)]

Dealer inventory may vary so you're participating Toyota dealer for details Event end stream first Toyota. Let's go places.

[Chris Mason]

I think the, the thing I think is worth mentioning in a, in a day or a handful of days where you get this kind of, you know, drama and resignations and letters and all that kind of stuff is remember the human beings. It's human beings making sometimes quite difficult, fine judgment calls. You know, imagine aspiring to hold elected office and to serve in government and you're invited to be a minister of the Crown. You're serving in government, which is an extraordinary privilege for people to get to do and then to decide to volunteer to walk away and in so doing, publicly criticise, you know, the guy who was on the head of the ticket, if you like, of your party when you won your seat in Parliament and to do that and come out and make an argument that some will agree with and others will disagree with about why you've chosen to do that. That's a difficult thing to do. Equally, it is difficult. And I've spoken to people in this position as well, who, on the balance of the evidence, as they see it, have come to the alternative view, which is that they think the Prime Minister should stay in place, even though they too may have been the subject, have been subjected to the kind of grumblings or frankly, downright quite noisy critique that plenty of Labour folk have heard on the doorstep about Keir Starmer. You know, these are just. These are not easy decisions for people to make in. In either direction. I think you got a sense of that listening to Miata Farnbola there, not least because kind of every actor in this drama, I don't want to say drama in a trivializing way, but every actor in this drama is not in control of what happens. They're in control of their own judgments, but they don't know where things are going to. Are going to end up. And so they're making those leaps without being certain where things will end up. And, you know, that's quite. That's quite a thing.

[Adam Fleming]

We should make some recent historical comparisons here, because this is what lots of people are doing. We should remember, Alex, that when this was happening to Boris Johnson In 2022, actually, it was cabinet ministers resigning one after the other. He lost a chancellor.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Yeah.

[Adam Fleming]

That wasn't four junior ministers that triggered Boris Johnson's resignation.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

No. And it happened very quickly as well. You know, I remember that sort of the first cabinet minister went. And then it was just this sort of sense of inevitability. And then this was this sort of quick tumbling and it was almost like a kind of collapse of the apparatus of government. Lots of key figures went, and it just was very obvious incredibly quickly that Boris Johnson couldn't sustain position because of what had happened. This is not that at this stage. Yes, there are an awful lot of people publicly expressing their unhappiness or anger or frustration or whatever it might be with the Prime Minister at the moment. But I. I think first off, he. There are four ministerial jobs that have gone. I think he'll endeavor to replace them pretty quickly, as he did with the PPS's that we may already have done.

[Adam Fleming]

But newscasters are listening to this.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Yeah. All of the messaging from Downing street is that they are. Are carrying on. That's what we heard from the Cabinet that did come out in front of the microphones today. And it is possible that he absolutely can do that because the Prime Minister is right to say a leadership contest hasn't been triggered, that Wes Streeting or anybody else that might want this job hasn't come out and said, right, I'm going to challenge the Prime Minister. Now, let's crack on with this. We're not in that position. Having said all of that, this is clearly not a normal situation when you've got, yes, a chunk of your parliamentary Labour Party backing you, but also a chunk that aren't, and people of your own government resigning as a consequence of that. And there is also a question about now. So we are. We're talking now on Tuesday. The King's speech is on Wednesday, and that is when the government sets out its legislative program so it says what it wants to get done, what it laws it wants to pass and its absolute priorities. And you've now got a Prime Minister who's saying, I'm determined to crack on and do that and govern in the way I was elected to do. But at the same time, you know that there are members of his cabinet that have had a word with him and said, oh, Prime Minister, you might want to have a think about what you do next. He's also then got all this public unrest in his own party. So when it comes to the practicalities of governing and legislating, when Parliament has to pass laws, you know, that is problematic, I think. But.

[Adam Fleming]

But, Chris, I'm just thinking this might seem pretty unprecedented for a government in modern times. It's actually not that unprecedented for the Labour Party because a lot of this sort of thing happened when Jeremy Corbyn was leader. I'm just thinking lots of the Shadow Cabinet saying, we don't think you're up to being our boss. A massive majority of the parliamentary Labour Party who were on the other side of Parliament at that point, because they were the opposition, saying, we have no confidence in you. There was actually a leadership challenge to Jeremy Corbyn, which he then won. So actually, this sort of stuff has happened in Labour in recent times.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah. Recall the name. Owen Smith, who was the challenger, and there was a contest and Jeremy Corbyn as the incumbent, as you say, did win. In fact, I remember when it all happened. I remember one evening going on the PM program on Radio 4 and I think my entire report was just reading out the list because it was a massive, massive list of resignations. I think the key point, though, Adam, is the one you make there in your observation. They weren't in government and it's just on a totally different scale, isn't it? Massively Massively different scale. I think I might have to check this. I think Tony Blair once said something about at least the Labour Party's had the decency to have its big rouse whilst it's been in opposition. I'll have to check that and I'll do that whilst you guys are talking to make sure I'm not misquoting it. But there's something along those lines. It's just obviously on a totally different tailing government.

[Adam Fleming]

I just mean psychologically, this is a group of people who've been through something a little bit like this before and I think that's quite interesting.

[Chris Mason]

Yeah. And I think to a degree as well, you know, the nature of public life is that these things play out in public. And you know, I guess all organizations and institutions and whatever can have their tangles, some of which, you know, we find out about and some of which perhaps we, perhaps we don't. And then it's magnified in political parties which, you know, tend to be, to a greater or lesser extent, sort of loose coalitions of varying views. And you know, these sort of things can blow up when there's a perception that from some, that the leadership is the reason why you seem to be wildly unpopular.

[Adam Fleming]

And Chris, while you thumb your well thumbed copy of Tony Blair's autobiography to find that quote, all political journalists have a copy of that book. Cause it's actually really useful because so many things happened in the Blair area where he's got a pithy thing to say about that.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Don't actually know where mine is.

[Adam Fleming]

Mine is. Mine is on my bookshelf at home. And even though I spend a lot of time in this studio, it's not technically my home. Alex, I was just thinking another historical parallel. And Chris has been using this phrase quite a lot today, this idea of put up or shut up, which is a reference to John Major in 1995 when he was facing lots and lots of critics from the Conservative Party and he launched his own leadership challenge against himself by resigning not as Prime Minister but as leader of the Conservative Party. And he did this press conference in the Downing Street Garden where he said to his critics, it's time to put up or shut up. And one person did put up and it was John Redwood who challenged him. And then there was a leadership contest which John Major won quite convincingly, but not actually convincingly enough to shut everyone up about the criticisms of him. I think that phrase comes from.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Yeah, and you're completely right. And that is exactly. That's basically what Keir Starmer said today in pretty coded terms in his language. You know, there's no leadership contest. So I'm cracking on, I. E. If you want one, go for it. Let's see where you get to. And you know the rules of the Labor Party. It's also. We're saying that if somebody challenges Keir Starmer for the leadership and gets the requisite number of MPS 81k star automatically in that leadership.

[Adam Fleming]

Says that in the rule book.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

I know. I was reading the Labour Party rulebook stage, which is very long, actually. It's a very long rule book. So he said there would be a contest, so. Yeah, so. So. So that was that. Exactly that. That's why everybody referenced that John Major moment. And John Major did win that leadership contest. Yes, but what did it do? It obviously diminished his authority ultimately, because I think there is a sort of inevitability about when a Prime Minister, in particular, I think, is openly challenged by his own party, then obviously his own party are questioning his leadership and judgment. So it's almost inevitable that leads to some erosion of authority. Having said that, I think this is why today particularly, we have seen so many Labor MPS 100 come out in support of the Prime Minister because they're so wound up about this. You know, to the people who are being his open critics, they're really annoyed about it because they see that the potential is that the authority is eroded or that the instability continues, and they don't think that that should be the right course of action. And I just want to caveat all of that thought with a really quick one. Is there is a possibility, with no reference to political history here, but there is a possibility that perhaps Keir Starmer. Let's see how this unfolds. If he does see off his critics, if he does, if we get to a leadership contest and win it, this is all kind of very hypothetical. There is a possibility where he might come out stronger if he. If there's a big showdown. We don't know. It feels like. I honestly do not know how this is going to unfold.

[Adam Fleming]

And some of what Alex was saying there was actually said by David Lammy, the Deputy Prime Minister, who went into Downing street to speak to journalists just before we started recording this episode.

[David Lammy]

I'm thinking of my constituents and many people across the country worried about what they're hearing from the Strait of Hormuz and their own finances. We must put country before party. The only person that benefits from the Labour Party naval gazing in this way is Nigel Farage and the populist right Keir Starmer was elected just under two years ago with a mandate from the British people. For five years he has my full support and what I say to colleagues is, look, let's just step back, take a breath. Let's remember that we have the King's Speech. We are in government to do a job of work. It's been 24 hours now and nobody has come forward to, to put themselves forward in the processes that exist in the party. No one seems to have the names to stand up against Keir Starmer. And for those who are suggesting that he should stand down, they should say which candidate would be better. Let's get on with the business of running this country and government. That's what I've been doing today, that's what the Prime Minister's been doing. And I urge colleagues to step back and not benefit Nigel Farage and reform.

[Adam Fleming]

Right, Chris, how's your thumbing of Tony Blair's autobiography going? You may have just been looking elsewhere.

[Chris Mason]

I didn't, alas. The copy, alongside all my other political biographies is not to hand in this newscast Westminster hq, but I've done a little bit of a nifty look online and I can find no reference to either the quote or it being Tony Blair's. So whether this is my sleep deprived head hallucinating, I don't know. But the broader point stands, doesn't it, in terms of the, the impact of internal party turbulence when you're running the country versus not next time I use

[Alex Davies-Jones]

that quote, Chris, I'll just attribute it

[Adam Fleming]

to you to Chris Mason when he was resigning from the role of Prime Minister. Also, Chris, just as we canter towards the end of this episode of newscast, can we have an update of Angela Rayner's position in all of this?

[Chris Mason]

Yeah. So her position is that she is kind of keeping an eye on things and up for sticking her head, I was about to say her head in the ring, her hat in the ring or her head above the parapet, should it come to pass that there is a contest. I think that's broadly speaking what her team are saying at the moment. So. Which is kind of how most of us watching all of this have anticipated her likely involvement if it gets to the point that something happened. She is clearly a key Westminster cliche word alert coming. Power broker in the, in the parliamentary Labour Party. So absolutely one to watch and one that others, not least West Treating and Andy Burnham kind of, you know, keep an eye on and, and wonder what kind of role she might play with as things stand. The whole question about her tax, the thing that cost to cost her a job in government. Still loitering. And then with this, you know, who knows what the timeline might be given the various sort of plates that are spinning at the moment.

[Adam Fleming]

And then tomorrow, Alex will be in a what seems like a parallel universe where Keir Starmer will be walking through the corridors of Westminster next to Kemi Badenok, having some awkward chit chat, which we always try and lip read. Then they'll watch the King read out the Government's program for the next year. 18 months, two years in parliament.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Yeah, with all the pomp and ceremony that goes with it, it's going to be completely bizarre. And it was a bit bizarre, that parallel just walking through Westminst today, because you'd walk along from the BBC offices towards Downing street and it was all really calm and the fences were out, ready for all of the processions and stuff that go along with the King's speech and the coppers were there and keeping the streets clear. And it was this real sense of order. And then you enter the gates of Downing street and it was like all the journalists in the media frenzy and this kind of sense of chaos. And I just thought, wow, isn't this interesting? And I think tomorrow what we're going to see is the kind of public front of the ceremony, ceremony and procedure and process. But that doesn't mean what's happening besides behind the scenes is gonna suddenly disappear.

[Adam Fleming]

Chris, On a normal day, I'd be saying, so have you got any hints about what's gonna be in the King's Speech and what the Government's got planned for its big moment?

[Chris Mason]

And yeah, exactly, that's exactly what you'd be doing. And I would reel off an articulate and well sourced answer in theory, or maybe just a load of waffle, I don't know, in reality, frankly, very few of us in this postcode have been able to give it much of a thought because for all the. For all the aforementioned reasons, really, we know a bit of it because the Prime Minister had a crack at trailing one element of it, which is the whole business of wanting to nationalize British British steel. But yeah, this is going to be the sort of essence of his plan for the next year or so. And the intriguing thing in terms of all of this drama and then that moment is twofold. One is that at least publicly, for a little bit, there's going to be something of a hiatus in all likelihood, whilst it is happening, not least because lots of the key players will be there and it Would look quite something, wouldn't it, if you were a wannabe alternative kind of Prime Minister and you sort of tried to politically kind of nuke the sovereign delivering the. The King's Speech. But also, and this is key, you know, if and when we get to a contest and there's a new Prime Minister, a key element of them making an argument that they have a mandate when critics will say they don't because it wasn't them on the ticket at the general election, will be delivering, arguing that they are delivering the manifesto upon which Labour won that general election. And at least just a partial articulation of that is what we're going to get in the King's Speech. Now, that doesn't mean that the government under Keir Starmer, nor necessarily the one under anyone else, would implement every.and, of what we get tomorrow. But it would be difficult for any future Prime Minister to be seen to be completely trashing what the government is setting forward tomorrow, given that kind of legitimacy, question would hang pretty heavy upon them if they, you know, if. If the Prime Minister is eventually kind of toppled or walks or whatever and somebody else comes in.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

It's worth saying just a couple of specifics that we certainly know a big focus is going to be on this notion of getting closer to the eu. Expect that to be a central thrust of the King's Speech. Keir Starmer floated it in his big speech that he gave on Monday. I think that will be in there. And the other thing that we know won't be in there is a welfare bill because, you know, lots of attempts to reform the welfare system. The government obviously ran into trouble with his back benches and Henry Zeff discovered on Monday night that there's not going to be a welfare bill in the King's Speech, because they say the reviews looking into how they might change the welfare system are still ongoing and they want to see that go through first. I think that's one to look out for because I suspect some opposition parties who've made quite a lot of the need to cut welfare, from their perspective, might pick up on that.

[Adam Fleming]

Right, that's where we will leave it at 17 minutes past 7. Chris, thank you very much.

[Chris Mason]

Thank you. I've got one little bit of breaking news.

[Adam Fleming]

Okay.

[Chris Mason]

Our mate, Paddy McGuinness.

[Adam Fleming]

Yes.

[Chris Mason]

I've just. He's. They're relaunching. Big break.

[Adam Fleming]

Yes.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

How.

[Chris Mason]

How fantastic is that? Yes. Pad and Stephen Hendry. I just stumbled.

[Adam Fleming]

The remake I didn't know I needed so.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Well, I do.

[Chris Mason]

I definitely want this. As I was trying to do my Tony Blair research, I stumbled across this news and now I've got the ear worm of the Big break theme tune stuck in my head.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

What were you googling that led you from Tony?

[Chris Mason]

Well, maybe. Yeah, yeah, good, good point. Little wonder I didn't find that Tony Blair quote, if indeed it is a quote from Tony Blair.

[Adam Fleming]

And soon the big leadership question will be settled. Who is taking over from Tess and Claudia on Strictly?

[Chris Mason]

Oh, yes. It's not Zoe, is it?

[Adam Fleming]

It's not Zoe. I would have loved Zoe to do it, but I also would love Zoe to have her weekends. Right, that's all. We'll be back with another episode of Newscast very soon. Bye bye.

[Chris Mason]

Newscast.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

Newscast from the BBC.

[Newscast Outro Host]

From one newscaster to another, thank you so much for making it to the end of this episode. You clearly do. In the words of Chris Mason, ooze stammering Can I also gently encourage you to subscribe to us on BBC Sounds? Tell everyone you know. And don't forget, you can email us [e-mail] or if you're that way inclined, send us a WhatsApp on [phone]. Be assured, I promise we listen to every one.

[Kraken Pro Advertisement]

CFTC regulated spot margin trading is now live on Kraken Pro Trade with up to 10 times leverage, long or short. Your crypto as collateral. The conviction was always there. Now the platform is too. Unleash your trading potential. Download Kraken Pro on the App Store or Google Play Play. Spot margin trading involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for everyone. Leverage magnifies gains and losses. View Ninja Trader Disclosures for more information on brokerage surfaces. Geographic restrictions apply. Terms apply.